What I want to know is when they started this program. Because I have the feeling that the Administration was spying on their political enemies and they do not want to be caught. If they were, that would be curtains, most indefinitely.

REPLY: Not true since the '60's. No longer do the authorities have to be that specific as to an exact place or item to be searched for. RESEARCH.

So, does the american still have a right "against unreasonable searches and seizures"? Yes. Do they need a warrant? Yes. Does it require probable cause? Yes. Must if be supported by "oath or affirmation"? Yes.

REPLY: Proof?

If they have NOT gone over their time limit, than what is the issue? Why are people calling it "unwarranted, illegal" surveillance? Sure, they could be mistaken (or trying to be sensationalists and get viewers). But they may NOT be mistaken. I don't have PROOF. But I assure you, if I find it, i'll give it. Im just trying to interpret what I hear.

REPLY: Anything placed in the trash, on the curb, can be taken and read, researched, etc.

Im assuming you are refering to these:

Katz v. United States, 386 U.S. 954 (1967)
California v. Greenwood, 486 U.S. 35 (1988)
looking through garbage, etc.
Smith vs Maryland 442 U.S. 735 (1979)
Allowed to view phone records


Yes, I know what these things say. Im aware of the whole concept of "expectation of privacy" and all the cases where it is a null point. I'm aware of how officers can sieze things that are in "plain view" (but still with "probable cause"). Im aware of the "open fields" issues, and how you don't need a warrant if there is no "expectation of privacy."

Under these cases, what is going on is "legal." Do these modify the fourth amendment? Absolutely. Yes, it is "legal." Is it right? Hell no. They are the beginnings of a slowly approaching police state.

REPLY: Most all of what have been called "lies" over the past two years have been proven true, mostly by documents and tapes captured from Iraq, and most of which have yet to be listened to/translated.

"have yet to be listened to/translated", yet we know they prove the "lies" to be "truths"? Granted, I'm not of the belief (at least not yet) that the war on iraq was a conspiracy or anything; I think Saddam just wanted to jump-start another major ethical/social/racial/cultural war. However, Im sure other members would love have some links to this proof.

REPLY: You haven't yet heard of the terrorists caught who were almost ready to down the Brooklyn Bridge?

I've heard. I've also heard about attempts to use gas stations as targets, and to conduct recon on various areas of the united states. However, can we prove that these plots were thwarted by unwarranted-mass-surveillance? How do we know that it was not thwarted by intel on the ground? Or by other agents? Who consequently provided the go-ahead for a warrant?

REPLY: Not the same; and what's on the OUTSIDE on the letter/package is not a violation.

Somehow, I think you missed this part of my post: ". I don't have an objection based on this idea alone. " I have an objection to unwarranted surveillance of actual phone calls. Of course that "isn't happening." However, the pattern shows that each time new news is broken, it becomes more intrusive. First only hundreds, then thousands, then on domestic calls too and on thousands of americans call "logs" but not actual calls... So far, the pattern leads to other possibilities of surveillance. No, there is no proof, but there is a pattern.

REPLY: America is not a democracy, and you should hope it never becomes one..... do the darm research.

Lol. Well, at least we agree on one topic! America + Democracy == BIG PROBLEM. And you just thought it was easy to manipulate policy in a republic... You just wait! Democracy is, as stated, mob rule. It is much easier to manipulate and control. NO DEMOCRACY. The REPUBLIC is what you want.

Now off of the members, to the issue.
I think that this is all getting out of control, we need to start enforcing FISA, but the patriot act I'm sure goes above it. Since when do certain laws become worth more then others? Whats the point of having FISA if their patriot act can just override it anyway?

REPLY: FISA, itself, is unconstitutional, as it places a roadblock in front of a presidents constitutional obligations. Of the many laws in existance, certain of those take precedence in times of war. It's always been that way.

aggroskater: Hello!
1- Yes, the authorities still require a warrant, but the terma have been diluted over the years, and it started long ago. I was merely presenting the issues to those less informed.

2- Yes, sensationalism is the wanted effect, by those who want "their" power back at any cost. Things have changed in many ways, going back to WWll. Macarthy (sp?) was right in most of what he claimed and the issues at hand. There was a vast, nationwife intel system with the communist Chinese in this country, and considering what was going on, and the threats to our republic, the mass imprisonment was the only way of quickly containing the threat, unfortunate as it was. Technology since then have given us better tools, and sometimes they must be used. There has always been a balance between"Free" and "Secure".

3- There are links in other threads concerning the proof of WMD's being moved, en-masse, from Iraq to Syria and Libya, and also the link between Saddam and Al Queda. I've known for three years (from public sources) that Dr. Kay had/has GPS coordinates of where much of the WMD's were in Syria. I can provide them if you wish. As to the Brookly bridge issue, yes, it was surveilance of phone calls that caught the people involved.

4- It's not America that is the problem, but you are correct that it is democracy. A Democracy is nothing more than "mob rule", and is why no Democracy in history has lasted more than 200 years. Gotta go. but I'll check this thread when I return. nice talking to 'ya.

Originally posted by ceci2006
What I want to know is when they started this program. Because I have the feeling that the Administration was spying on their political enemies and they do not want to be caught. If they were, that would be curtains, most indefinitely.

You're describing the previous administration to a "T". Remember the 600 FBI files in the White House? Do some research on "Carnivore" and "Eschelon"..... where emails were actually read, and phone calls were actually listened to.... things which the current admin. turned down/refused to allow.

But, I have. Thank you though for suggesting. That is why I can separate the wheat from the chaff especially when propaganda is used to refute the insights of other posters.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Yes, zappafan1. The King is dead. Long live the King. You're right. We're not living in a democracy now. We're living in a Monarchy. King George the second.

But to be more specific: we're living in a petty dictatorship.

But seriously, I knew about Clinton's insertion into government spying business. But the majority of it was done off-shore. You should be bothered that any leader would attempt to do that against a populace of people.

[edit on 25-5-2006 by ceci2006]

REPLY: America has never been a Democracy, which is a good thing; A true Democratic country is nothing more than Mob Rule, as history has shown us. And, as history shows, no democracy has lasted more than 200 years. No, Clintons spying efforts were squarely on his political enemies, and he and Algore started Eschelon and Carnivore, with the blessing of Janet "The Torch" Reno.

Originally posted by ceci2006
But, I have. Thank you though for suggesting. That is why I can separate the wheat from the chaff especially when propaganda is used to refute the insights of other posters.

What propaganda??? Propaganda can be both good and bad.... it applies to both types of info. Care to elaborate? Bush refeused to utilize both
Eschelon and Carnivore as being too intrusive, by the way.

Oh balls. -- Do you people really think this is an invasion of privacy?

1) We pay the government to protect us.
2) We've voted the Bush administration into office twice now.
3) The NSA stops its research at call records. They don't look at what you're saying.
4) The only cause for the NSA to look any further than simply who you call would be for you to speak with agents of terror on a regular basis.
5) If you're not speaking with agents of terror on a regular basis, why do you have cause to worry?

[edit on 13-6-2006 by sagacitygonedaft]

Originally posted by sagacitygonedaft
Oh balls. -- Do you people really think this is an invasion of privacy?

1) We pay the government to protect us.
2) We've voted the Bush administration into office twice now.
3) The NSA stops its research at call records. They don't look at what you're saying.
4) The only cause for the NSA to look any further than simply who you call would be for you to speak with agents of terror on a regular basis.
5) If you're not speaking with agents of terror on a regular basis, why do you have cause to worry?

[edit on 13-6-2006 by sagacitygonedaft]

REPLY: EXACTAMUNDO! Well said and explicit. But some will still complain.

Exactamundo? My Royal Canadian ASS !! The world is comming under the control of the Facist regime with Bush as the figure head, fundamentalist, Crusading American and you sit there applauding? Have you been lobotomized? Hugo Chavaliaz is my hero - the mouse that roars against this egomaniacal pimp of the poor to the elite.
Wake the heck up and chisel the scum off your eyes. Go join a cult in the mountains if you want to be a mindless slave. America was built on principles of freedom and safety not servitude and fear of the government that is supposed to protect the rights of the individual. Read your own constitution and wake up to what is being done to you !!! THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT ! You are the only people in the world who can do something and you lay there like the dead, allowing this pig to trample the freedoms you claim to want for the world.

Originally posted by Thinker_1
Exactamundo? My Royal Canadian ASS !! The world is comming under the control of the Facist regime with Bush as the figure head, fundamentalist, Crusading American and you sit there applauding? Have you been lobotomized? Hugo Chavaliaz is my hero - the mouse that roars against this egomaniacal pimp of the poor to the elite.
Wake the heck up and chisel the scum off your eyes. Go join a cult in the mountains if you want to be a mindless slave. America was built on principles of freedom and safety not servitude and fear of the government that is supposed to protect the rights of the individual. Read your own constitution and wake up to what is being done to you !!! THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT ! You are the only people in the world who can do something and you lay there like the dead, allowing this pig to trample the freedoms you claim to want for the world.

REPLY: If he was that much of a hero to you, I think you'd know how to spell his name. Also, Chavez was communist sympathizer, which says mountains about your viewpoints and ideals. So far, nothing the Bush admin. has done is illegal.

For what i'ts worth, one can't be a fascist and be under the control of "big business", as some claim.

Big business it is:

"By 2004, it (Choicepoint) had become the world's largest private intelligence operation. Its services mirrored what good intelligence analysts do, only Choicepoint identifies the patterns and links and potential tendencies much faster, and with a sweep that would make James Bond's colleagues envious. Besides, as a data contractor, it often can work with aggregated details about American citizens in ways that police and intelligence officials sometimes by law cannot. The company's aims are apparent in its marketing documents. The phrase the company used in an annual report to describe the essence of what it sells was 'Actionable Intelligence.'
Company officials make no effort to advertise to the general public what the company is becoming. They worry the reality would scare people. They also don't think that most people would believe them." - No Place To Hide, Robert O'Harrow.

When corporate interests control the decision making process of what is touted as a democratically elected government, a small group of very wealthy people are represented to the exclusion of the citizenry. That is fascism.

Originally posted by ceci2006
What I want to know is when they started this program. Because I have the feeling that the Administration was spying on their political enemies and they do not want to be caught. If they were, that would be curtains, most indefinitely.

REPLY: Eschelon and Carnivore began and were authorized and used by the previous admin, both of which are NOT being used the same way by Bush. Clinton used it for sure to spy on his enemies, political and otherwise, along with his having those 600 FBI files in the White House.....very illegally by the way. Indeed, sad to say, we'll never know, but it might be that some Republicans have dirt on them, which is why they're not doing what they were elected to do.

It's also the most likely reason ex-president pantload never went to trial.

Originally quoted by zappafan1

REPLY: Eschelon and Carnivore began and were authorized and used by the previous admin, both of which are NOT being used the same way by Bush. Clinton used it for sure to spy on his enemies, political and otherwise, along with his having those 600 FBI files in the White House.....very illegally by the way. Indeed, sad to say, we'll never know, but it might be that some Republicans have dirt on them, which is why they're not doing what they were elected to do.

It's also the most likely reason ex-president pantload never went to trial.

QUESTION: So is that why the Republicans spent time and wasted our tax dollars on trying to get Mr. Clinton for a BJ instead of this?

Come on. We all know that the Republicans smell red meat and attack when they want to. They've been doing it since being revamped in the eighties. I'm sure if they knew this, they would have gotten Mr. Clinton on his "illegal spying" if they had the chance. They would immediately brand him as being "unAmerican" and a " flip-flopping dictator", not to mention the other euphemisms they have introduced to the public over time to describe the former President.

That's what I mean by the use of propaganda. You did say propaganda was either good or bad, right? I guess, propaganda is in the eye of the beholder--especially when it is used to cover up the misdeeds of domestic spying.

[edit on 27-6-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006

Originally quoted by zappafan1

REPLY: Eschelon and Carnivore began and were authorized and used by the previous admin, both of which are NOT being used the same way by Bush. Clinton used it for sure to spy on his enemies, political and otherwise, along with his having those 600 FBI files in the White House.....very illegally by the way. Indeed, sad to say, we'll never know, but it might be that some Republicans have dirt on them, which is why they're not doing what they were elected to do.

It's also the most likely reason ex-president pantload never went to trial.

QUESTION: So is that why the Republicans spent time and wasted our tax dollars on trying to get Mr. Clinton for a BJ instead of this?

Come on. We all know that the Republicans smell red meat and attack when they want to. They've been doing it since being revamped in the eighties. I'm sure if they knew this, they would have gotten Mr. Clinton on his "illegal spying" if they had the chance. They would immediately brand him as being "unAmerican" and a " flip-flopping dictator", not to mention the other euphemisms they have introduced to the public over time to describe the former President.

That's what I mean by the use of propaganda. You did say propaganda was either good or bad, right? I guess, propaganda is in the eye of the beholder--especially when it is used to cover up the misdeeds of domestic spying.

[edit on 27-6-2006 by ceci2006]

REPLY: Are "Facts" propaganda? And, no, evidence exists about what I said of "pantload", boxes of it, unfortunately now hidden for 25 years due to federal laws.

[link]http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=14489[/link]

The above link might not seem to you a reliable source, but it's one of the few I have on the 'ol laptop.