How to defend your self, on a budget.

Took two rifles to the range today.

My second SKS and my M1 Carbine.
The SKS worked fine..no problems now that I have the gas valve properly positioned. As posted earlier ..this one seems to group a bit tighter than the first.

The M1 Cabine did not function as well. I had not shot this rifle in years. Several Jams or stovepipes on this one. THe rifle shot well for this type of firearm...it just had several manfunctions of the feeding/ejecting mechanism. Shot about 60 rounds of this Carbine type ammunition.

Both Rifles are now cleaned and ready to be put away. The M1 Carbine I will reload the rounds for it and put it away.

The SKS will be put away also. Time to get some boxer type primer brass for it.

Purchased two slings and two cleaning kits today also.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Awhile back I ordered a large bulk order of ammo in the mail. It came no problem and was sitting on my porch.
I also as posted in previous posts ordered 500 empty brass cases for reloading. They came in the mail and were also sittiing on my porch.

I was curious as to whether this would raise any flags with anyone but apparently not. There are more important things today to keep track of than these orders. Now if I ordered like 10,000 rounds in the mail..to a private residence perhapsed but apparently my order was not bulk enough. No problem.

It was the same when I ordered a lock pick set in the mail. THis was the third or fourth set I had ordered. However in these times I wondered if this order would arrive..no problem. They are in my back pocket as I type.

Anyway..in process of time I will have to work up a load for this new rifle and see how it works.

Keep them in the X ring guys!!,

Thanks,
Orangetom

PS. While I am thinking about it. I was in the local gun store today and looked at a AK 47 type rifle thinking it was in 7.62x39mm caliber. Much to my surprise it was in .223 calbier. I did not know they were making them in the same caliber that the M16 shoots. This rifle is not made for the 5.45x39mm cartridge of which the Russians use in the AK 74 but the 5.56mm or .223. It was a surprise to me. THese rifles are light in weight too.

OT...just sayin' here...

Why in the name of God would you want an AK chambered to the questionable-at-best 5.56? Or is it just novelty? I mean, for more than a decade, the stories have been quite prevalent that 5.56 just doesn't hack it as a manstopper. Yes, I know, fragmentation and yaw.

But the annecdotal evidence seems to say otherwise. Iraq and Somalia, anyone?

DE

NO thanks,

I dont want one made in .223. I already own two Mini 14s in .223 and a bolt action Savage heavy barreled rifle ..very accurate also in .223. I also have a Thompson Contender single shot pistol with a .223 caliber barrel. This Contender also has a barrel in 35 Remington caliber for whenever I feel stupid enough to need alot of punnishment and want to beat myself to death in recoil. This Contender caliber will do it. The .223 barrel is very comfortable in 14 inch length. Very managable recoil.

I was just noting that I had seen one. I had always thought that the AK types were in the Russian caliber..AK 47 or the 7.62x39mm or the Ak 74 5.45x39mm. It was just curious to see this set up.

If I was to make such a purchase I would rather have it in .30 caliber..or what we call the 7.62 caliber.

I agree...the .223 or 5.56mm has been found wanting in Afganistan across the wide expanses in punch and long range delivery capabilities.

I have been reading that the wharehouses have been stripped of the remaining M14 rifles and even many of the ones being newlymanufactured are being bought up. THe demand is so high for this potent rifle which can deliver the energy on a single impact. Rather ironic dont you think. For years the .223 has been touted as the new thing to replace sliced bread...now this backpeddling.

I do however like the performance tables on the new cartridges like the 6.5mmSPC. Also the long range potential of the 6.8 Grendel.

I have also heard that the insurgents in Iraq have a sniper working for them who is quite accomplished and apparently has better training than most of the Iraqis. This guy knows not to sit still after taking a shot. Very wise. Our teams...the last I heard are having problems finding this guy he is so slippery.

Perhapsed someone else on this board has a update on this sniper as I have been out of this news loop for some time but when I first heard this it was very intresting. The name our guys have given this person escapes me at the moment.

Thanks,
Orangetom

OT, his name/their is Juba.

en.wikipedia.org...

As for the .223, I heard at close ranges it's just zipping through the Bad Guys and not doing much damage.

As for the M14, even our Norinco copies up here are barely staying on the shelves. It's an excellent rifle, and the flattening power of the .308 cannot be debated. For the record, I think that the AR15 design is a HUGE step backwards for battle rifles.

DE

Orangetom:
.223 AK variants are fairly popular here among the Rifle Practical shooters, but they they were originally meant for Export into countries who had previusly used AK-47/74 and were shifting to NATO stardards... Nice buggers to shoot but the .223 isn't just my caliber, 7.62x39 is "much" more effective in your usual combat distances.

Thanks for the clarification and update on the name "Juba". That is the name I recall now that you have reminded me. I recall reading that name in one of my firearms periodicals. This person seems to keep coming up from time to time.

Also thanks for the videos on that site. I had not seen them before this.

Northwolf,

I too would prefer the .30 caliber. Much more variety in fodder for this caliber. Lots of different bullet weights available when compared to the .223.

My Hornady Reloading book lists bullets from 110 grain spire points to the heavy 220 grain round noses in what we here stateside call the 30.06 caliber.
A 220 grain round nose....that is alot of energy delivered but needed in game like bear or even elk/moose.
THe heaviest I have ever loaded in 30.06 caliber is the 190 grain hollow point match bullet. Very nice bullet too. Very accurate.

Thanks to all for the info.

Orangetom

Originally posted by DeusEx

But the annecdotal evidence seems to say otherwise. Iraq and Somalia, anyone?

DE

Not wishing to start a p1ssing contest, but this 'evidence' tends to come from units that use 14" barrels (M4s). This reduces the effective fragmentation range of the 5.56mm SS109 round to about 85m. Use a 20" barrel (M16) and this is increased to >200m. Having fired the H&K G3KA4 which is a short barrelled version of the G3 rifle (7.62mm), I can safely say that when you reduce the barrel length of a weapon, round performance suffers big-style. The effectiveness of rounds fired from the G3KA4 were quite disapointing (though still better than the 5.56mm).

The military seems to have a fascination with short barreled weapons. As I recall this goes back to the Vietnam days for us Yanks with the advent of the CAR type M16 rifles. I think Jungle and urban type warfare are motivating this trend.

Experience with my Thompson Contender single shot pistol in 14 inch long barrel has taught me something about the effeciency of certain cartridges as per length of barrel.

In the 5.56 caliber the 14 inch barrel seems to give good powder burn. The barrels are clean after firing indicating that this powder type pretty much completely burns in this barrel length.
In factory loaded .35 Remington...this barrel length does not give good burn. there is much unburned powder residue remaining in the barrels after every shot. Careful reloading can remedy this problem. The rifles made for this cartridge mostlly have 20 inch or longer barrels and .35 Remington like the 5.56mm is a rifle cartridge.

But you are also describing the function of a semi auto gas operated rifle. This throws another factor into the equation. The cycling of the mechanism verses the down range performance.
I just dont see how you can get the performance without special loading of the ammunition being done as per this short length of barrel. Even with this option will you get all the performance desired out of a rifle like these with certain barrel lengths in mind.
This type of problem to be solved reminds me of custom knife makers always looking for that "perfect " blend of steel and style with which to make thier knives...they are never quite satisfied.

With the exception of certain ammunition for specialty teams..snipers and such ..the militarys are loath to retool and stock special ammunitions. The logistics can be staggering. Especially with Global operations in mind.

Still...I see this trend to short barreled rifles continuing and I am observing from the sidelines.

One more thing PaddyInf...today ..verses when I began reloading ..years ago...there is a much larger variety of powders available. I have had to purchase new manuals to keep up with trends. Much of this has been spurred on by demands in the civilian shooting market. So the gunpowders are out there. So while the militarys are intrested they historically tend to be slow to respond to new changes.

Thanks Paddy,
Orangetom

You know Paddy..I've only seen a handful of this type of rifle used here Stateside at the firing ranges. I have had the privelege of firing one some years back.

As I recall it is termed here the HK 91 in 7.62x51 caliber. A pretty potent round.
What I also recall about this rifle was that it was heavy in weight. A pretty solid shooting platform. Pretty accurate too for iron sights on this one.

The most unusual thing about this rifle and the one which stands out immediately was the ejection process. I was shocked when I first saw one in operation.
This rifle throws the brass consistantly ...into the next county so to speak. Pretty much in one uniform,fast, and consistant direction..but very very very far.
During a lull in shooting and while everyone was downrange changing targets..I took the opportunity to pick up some of the expended brass. This rifle also leaves a unusual mark on the brass...lengthwise. I know of no other rifle which does this..both length of ejection and the marks left on the spent brass ..very unusual.

However ..I will tell you I never aspired to own one of these HK type rifles. The rifle I always admired is the FN/LAR type rifle....the one the Brits used before switching to this bullpup type rifle they use today. This FN type rifle looks like a shooter.
This too...here Stateside...like the HK series is a pricy rifle. Now that I can afford one I am about bought out on rifles. Handguns too. I just always admired the looks and styling of this type of FN rifle.
Oh...and I never desired to have one of these in a short barreled version. I like a sight radius on my rifles and handguns in spite of what current trends dictate.

Thanks,
Orangetom

I'm kind of intimidated by rifles- mostly because I've never fired one. However, I DO know this: I could turd a better rifle design than the AR15. And that's just from looking at schematics.

If I had to purchase a modern assault rifle...and such things were even vaguely legal in my country... the FAL would be at the top of my list. It's been in service with a frightening number of countries, including a bunch that still use it. My country was the first to adopt it, and only phased it out the year before my birth. It fires a full-power catridge, and have a rather spectacular service record.

I'm still more comfortable with shotties and pistols, which are par for the home-defence course. Plus, they're (more) legal up here.

DE

I am myself...not enamoured of the M16/AR15 type rifles. The guy down the end of my street tried to sell me one in a heavy barrel version. I'm just not intrested.

I do like the concept of the 6.8 Grendel or 6.5 SPC type calibers. I think this is a much better set up than the 5.56mm. As I recall..this was a early exploration of the UK military in this caliber...or similar... to replace the .303 Enfield which had served the Empire for so long. Something around .260 or .270 caliber. IT was dropped in favor of the unified caliber we know today as 7.62x51mm. Politics..!!

I understand that some AR types are being manufactured in 7.62x51mm now days too though I believe Stoner made one in the early days originally calibrated in this round. I recall it was termed the AR10. It never seemed to catch on much in comparison to the 5.56mm round.

Deus Ex..I am much more enamoured of my M1 Garand and even more of my bolt action 1903 Springfield. In 5.56mm I like my Bolt action Savage heavy barrel rather than my Mini 14. This Savage is much more accurate..by far.
I suppose you could say that compared to most of the world I am de-evolving back to bolt actions and single shots. THe only thing left to me is to go black powder..percussion ..then flint lock. And finally back to Bow and Arrow..then stone knives and bear clubs.

Thanks, Deus Ex,
Keep them in the X ring.

Orangetom

Orange, I am stuck never evolving, if I stay in canada. I'd love to own a Garand or a 1903 Springfield. Hell, if you're done with them...

Nothing wrong with interests like that, OT. You're getting into the autumn years.

At any rate, Stoner didn't know what he was doing. Is the ejection system different on the AR10? Or is it just a chambered-up AR15?

DE

As I recall the history the original design by Eugene Stoner was for a 7.62x51mm rifle. This was the AR10 rifle.
The design along with some others like the AR18...were never really brought to frutition or heavily marketed as were the AR15/M16 types. I believe the rights on Stoners designs were bought up by the Colt Firearms company and rechambered to the 5.56x45 round or what we sometimes call the .223. However the original chambering was for the 7.62x51mm. It was just scaled back for the current calibration.

I have handled a AR18 also and found this rifle to my liking much better than the Colt AR 15 or M16 type rifles. The one I handled years ago had a factory folding stock of the solid design..not a skeletonized framework which folded but instead a complete solid buttstock which folded. The AR18 however is also chambered for the 5.56mm/.223 caliber. I have never handled a AR 10 nor actually seen one outside of photos. They seem to be even more rare than the AR 18 series of rifles.

THe AR 18 is also not found much anymore and I dont even know if they are being manufactured or can even be found. IF they are they are fetching very premium prices as I havent seen one even at a gun show in years and years.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Oh come on don't buy any of that #.

In all practicality all the average person needs is a compact .45 for self-defense, not the cheapest one you can find either, you want it to work when you need it don't you? My two recommendations would be a Glock 30, while the Glock is the best choice, if you want to get classy get a Springfield Ultra Compact 1911A1. They're both at decent prices and will never fail you. Don't worry about low mag capacity, if you can't defend yourself at close quarters with 5 .45 rnds than you shouldn't have a gun.

If you're worried about getting invaded or whatever, a Remmy 870 if you live in cali or an AR-15/AK if you live in a free state. Ak-47's 7.62x39 is an extremely effective round, although 5.56x45 from an AR will work just as well, a good 75gr is the optimum round for home defense/SHTF situtations IMO. If you're worried about the AR jamming, just take care of your rifle and it shouldn't happen. Also, 5.56x45 isn't just for close range, it is infact a very very good round for long range sniping, as in 600+ yards, the barrel length makes a difference of how much velocity it will have. You want 16 or more inches for that kind of range, 18 is good. The 12g of a 870 will blow your ears out, but it will blow the bad guy's leg off.

For an AR that doesn't suffer from any of the carbon build up that causes alot of standard AR's malfunctions, get one that is piston driven for a few more bucks.

You should attend a class while you're at it.

Don't get yourself a baseball bat thinking you can really defend your family or yourself, a multi-tool swiss army knife is nice to have, but I would never use a knife in home defense or otherwise. Would you really want to take the chance? If you want to go that route just grab one of your big kitchen knives.


[edit on 17-7-2006 by Anglebert]

[edit on 17-7-2006 by Anglebert]

Edit.

[edit on 17-7-2006 by Anglebert]

Normal ARs are useless to anything above 300m, normal ammunition isn't just going to work. If you wan't longer range cabability you'll have to invest to a full sized rifle. But a 7.62Nato or more powerful caliber aren't for home defence because they WILL overpenetrate.

For a handgun, use any service pistol, with caliber at least 9mm para and you'll be just fine.

Orangetom
Main purpose for short barreled carbines is MOUT, aka Urban Combat. A Full length G3 is a bitch to use in close quarters (ask from Norwegians operating in Kosovo )

Even a Sako Rk-95 with 16 inch barrel is a bit too long to be used in Building raids, folding stock is useless in combat (but a very nice thing to have if you have to cram 7 men in to a UAZ)


It's all about compromise between handling, power, recoil and accuracy. I for one am willing to trade some of the power for handling, just as long as i'm able to reach out to 200m (Rk-95 is good for 300m)

If you can find a Sako Rk-92 get it, it's probably the best Assault rifle you'll ever find (Rk-92 = Rk-95s semiauto variant)

Late last night I began trial runs on reloading 20 rounds of 7.62x39mm ammunition with Sierra spire point bullets weighing 125 grains per bullet at .311 diameter.

I have purchased 500 empty brass cases with boxer primed cases...single hole in the center of the primer pocket. Most of this ammunition from Europe is steel cases with berdan primer pockets...two holes in the primer pocket. Steel cases are difficult to resize though I have done it with sufficient lubrication. Just not worth the time.
This brass cartridge case like the .223 round does not have alot of case capacity for gunpowder. Ballistically it seems to be in the neighborhood of the 30-30 round but with a lighter bullet.

I can actually buy this ammunition as cheap or cheaper than I can reload it but decided to investigate this route in case this ammunition becomes difficult to acquire.

The 20 trial rounds I have loaded are with IMR4198 gunpowder at 23 grains with a Winchester large rifle primer. By the weekend I hope to fit in some time to see how they perform at the range. If satisfactory I will reload them again.. to double check before documenting this reloading information onto my reloading data cards.

Hot here today in Virginia. Summer is definitely in full swing now.

Keep them in the X ring folks.
Thanks,
Orangetom

I'm a bit new, and this is one of the best threads i've read...Almost makes me feel like I want a NWO or some type of worst case scenario...I've tried to keep up with everything going on, but i haven't done that well of a job...Anyway, orangetom or anyone else, if you could give me a website with say...Reliable handguns, not too pricy...Maybe a good place to buy a glock or bretta...not to mention, what type of Semi-automatic rifle would you reccomend? M-1's are great, if you can find a good working one and such...

If you feel like paying an arm and a leg and another leg, Springfield Armories makes brand-new Garands and M14s to ridiculous standards.

Linkaaaaaaaay!

DE