How to defend your self, on a budget.

Springfield is well known for excellent (and extremely pricey) quality firearms. Still, that survival rifle sounds like exactly the rifle everyone of 'us' needs. I don't think anyone will dispute its utility- and the price tag is excellent. Can you get us a link to a product page?

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
Can you get us a link to a product page?

DE

www.1stconnect.com...

^^^That page has some decent info on it ^^^



Also, the following page has some price info on it :

www.snipercountrypx.com...

Thanks for the info, ES. However, what the site's telling me is that A) they don't make them anymore, and B) the site listed is out of stock.

Looks like a kickass piece of kit, for sure. Concealable, to boot. I'm still trying to consider all the angles here, of course. So far the plan seems to be as follows:

1. Establish escape Route

2. Exfil

3. Something

4.Something

5. Arrive at cache alive and well

6. Settle in for the long haul.

DE

Well, the bad news keeps getting worse.

It's discontinued and apparently the price has doubled or tripled since I was last looking (not even that long ago, it's spooky), collectible and all that I suppse. It's still a fine gun for the price, I just went price comparing and found several new ones for sale on various sites for between 450 and 650 (!Thieves!). The good news is, the used ones are going for original sticker price, about 250 bucks, or thereabouts, and the things are so damn durable you're probably safe buying used.

Really a shame about them being discontinued though, it's getting harder and harder to find quality tools at affordable prices. There's no shortage of 2000 dollar designer guns, of course, as if anyone really needed one of those gilded pieces of crap.

Some tips on improving functionality of the M6, if you manage to find one: Tips

Thinking on that post ..I have never actually seen one of those Springfield Survival rifles other than in magazine articles. I think at one time the military was issuing them in bail out gear in ejection seats or such. I suppose it was to compliment a pilots regular sidearm. I am wondering if they never quite caught on with the public or such ..perhapsed priced out of the range for most civilians.

I own two such survival class tools. The first is a Charter Arms AR 7 .22 caliber semi auto rifle. It has a plastic stock which can be removed. The rifle takes down and stores in the stock. The barrel also unscrews for storage in the stock. This is one of the first rifles I ever bought. It will do in a pinch. It is not particularly accurate compared to the other .22 caliber tools I have. I keep it in the back trunk of one of my cars. Its been there for years and years now..sealed up. I also have a large plastic tylenol bottle next to the rifle filled with .22 caliber ammo. Been there for years too. I take it out once a year and clean it ..then put it back in the trunk.

The second tool of this type is a Savage Combination gun. .22 caliber barrel on top of a 20 gauge shotgun. This one too is put away with ammo..and taken out once a year to inventory and clean. Very simple..take down arrangement. Single shot. Stored in a two chamber carrying bag.The hammer has a selector to switch from the shotgun barrel to the .22 barrel. Barrel length is about 20 inchs. Shotgun is straight out bore. No choke. This is not what I would call a accurate piece either but simple and practical. Storage space in the stock for spare shotgun shells and spare .22s.

Neither piece was particularly expensive at the time. Less than 200 dollars. I dont even know if either piece is being made anymore. Both pieces are in storage..on the ready line for when needed.

The Springfield article reminded me of these two guns.

Thanks,
Orangetom

One thing that you have all forgotten is a radio. It wont get you food, keep you safe or keep you warm and dry but it will tell you when whatever you are running away from has finished and its safe to return.

Also i had a maglite once but the bulb in it broke whenever it got dropped from a height of more than 3-4 inches (Is this normal for a maglite?), so i will most definatly not take a maglite with me if i need to get out.

Justin

If you're planning on living in the wilderness until whatever happened had resolved itself, a flashlight is not the most useful tool.

However, having one can be very convenient, as well as a stress-reducer, especially on your first nights out, before you get your bearings and set up camp. There are other situations too, where a flashlight is much preferable to a fire or similar large light source. Evading pursuers, for example, you're not going to want to light up a visible fire, and you may not have the time or inclination or ability to build a fire hole, but you may need light for cleaning your weapon or rigging a line or setting snares, or whatever. Throw a hood over your head and you can see perfectly to do whatever small task you need to do, without putting up a bat signal.

If you're going to bring a flashlight (and I do think it's a good idea), it might be better to pack one small emergency light, batteried and bulbed and ready to shine, and another flashlight without bulb or batteries - instead pack some tackle in the cavity and keep the batteries in their original packaging, along with a couple of bulbs in a watertight case.

If something breaks and you're in the forest, try to find alternate uses for the component parts. Where else are you going to find machined metal tubes and reflective disks in the wilderness? This instinct came naturally to our forefathers, but it has been dulled somewhat, I think, by constant, racheted-up exposure to disposable consumer culture.

Flashlights can still be useful, even without a bulb. I'm a smoker, so my BOB's gotta have a couple of cartons of smokes. A nifty trick I picked up from the Search and Rescue bible is that you can light cigarettes with the reflector from a flashlight, and of course cigarettes can be used to kill cravings and ignite tinder at the same time.

Also, on that note, people should not neglect the psychological aspect of survival. I've seen a lot of information (good information) on this thread, pertaining to tools and tactics, but little in the way of mental preparation, which is by far the most important aspect IMO.

For example, knowing the ins and outs of survival fishing and trapping, and having a pack full of gear designed for that purpose, is useless if you spend the whole day crying underneath a tree because you miss your family and you're hungry and tired and afraid.

The will to survive is really an amazing thing, I've seen it, I've felt it firsthand, it's awe-inspiring. But all too often panic sets in, and people wind up crippling themselves mentally. Once when I was backpacking, one of my cheap synthetic hiking boots came apart in a stream. I was two days from my destination, and it had been a miserable experience from the start. We had an injured person already, and I was very close to just sitting down on a rock and waiting for someone who gave a damn to come find me. Mentally, I was very close to my breaking point.

As survival situations go, losing your shoes is not that bad. Or rather, it could be a lot worse, it can always be a lot, lot worse. Those are the sort of thoughts that get you off the rocks and back on the path...

One good technique I know of is using familiar habits and things like comfort food to mitigate the effects of stress. Something as simple as crackers and peanut butter, or a candy bar, or a cigarette, or a flute, can mean the difference between losing your will to live, and going on.

Setting up goals and rewards for your self, is by far the most important thing to do mentally. A goal may be to make it up to a placve 20km away and a reward for that could be days rest. Next goal might be setting up a sheltter and a reward a candy bar. In the military the goal was to make it to the end of the exercise and the reward was a leave (this is of course a bad way to think in the real situation)

My "treat" was mostly coffee, tea or hot chockolade (warm drinks boost your morale about 200% )

and remember you can make "decent" tea from birch leaves

I suggest you get LED lights for your survival pack, my UK light has abou 20+h battery life with 2 AAA Batteries.

Ps. Remember You don't need a light to travel at night in 30 minutes normal human adapts to normal night darkness, only thing where light is needed is map reading (even a fluorecent watch is enough for that if you're out of anything brighter) and allways only use one eye for map reading and keep the other one closed, so you don't loose all of your night vision at once, same goes for shooting too

Right here next to my computer I am listening to my Grundig Radio from Radio Shack. Model FR 200. This radio has a intresting feature for the moneys. It costs about $40.00. AM/FM bands are on it of course but it also has on it the short wave bands from 3.2MHZ to 22MHZ. All AM modes. This radio has another feature in that it runs on 3 AA type batteries but comes with the feature such that you can hand crank it to charge a telephone type internal battery. IF properly hand cranked will run for about a hour. Comes with a carry case. It also has a built in light. A flashlight. I have two of these radios. A spare rechargable telephone battery is also in storage here ready to go.
It is not a particularly powerful flashlight but it will suffice close up. If you chose to carry a mag light type light spare batteries and of course bulbs would be necessary for a radio and lights. If possible ..carry a radio and lights which use the same battery type to reduce space needed. Most smaller radios today use either the small AA type batteries or AAA type. This saves alot of space.

By the way. I have been using this new kit released for the Mag type lights for about a month now. I use the ones that run on two AA batteries. The new kit contains three LED type bulbs in the tip. IT is a module and a new reflector which replace the olde single bulb. It seems to continue to burn bright long after the time a regular bulb would have begun to fade out on a given set of batteries. In other words the batteries seem to last longer for a brighter light. Now the beam focus is not as far as with the older type bulb/reflector set up but most of my light usage is close up ..not afar. I was curious about this when I bought this set up and todate it has worked fine. I have purchased three other of these lights and the kits to modify them. I will soon be purchasing three more kits to keep in stock. The kit bulbs are about $4 to $5.

Northwolf ..I am surmising by your post that you are quite familiar and comfortable/confident with the forests around where you live or are planning to retreat. I say this because I dont recommend that one move about in the woods at night unless you are very very familiar with the terrain. IF you break a leg stepping in a hole or off a cliff..in the woods...you wont be found except by the scavengers. Especially when carrying a heavy kit. Moving about at night will also consume your battery supply rapidly. Night vision is something for which most daywalkers are not familiar with at all.
While I work nights ...in this shipyard I have learned you never go on a ship without some kind of light source. A cyalume light stick or a mag light. I have been caught to many times when the lights go out onboard a ship. You cannot see your nose in front of you it is so dark. You sit still and wait for help to come by if there is not a fire or such. Many a shipbuilder/sailor has fallen down a hole in such dark conditions...some to thier deaths. Hence today I always carry a mag light. This has been my habit for many years now. ON my hip I always like to carry my mag light my Gerber pocket pliers and a set of feeler gauges in a mag light pouch. I have decent night vision from working the graveyard shift after midnights...my prefered shift. But the woods can get very very dark. And I mean...very dark. Many would be surprised...those who are summer beach type people...daywalkers.....to realize how quickly it darkens in the woods once the sun falls over the horizon. You need to be prepared for this long before the sun falls.
Nonetheless ..around here ..Eastern Virginia..I dont recommend walking around the forest in unfamiliar woods at night with heavy kit on your back. Lots of holes to step into.

While I am at it...any of you used GPS in the military?? To my knowlege the military GPS rigs have a specific set of sattelites they can use. They can also use the civilian sattelites but my point is the military has dedicated sattelites. My other point is that in extreme situations...the military has the ability to commandeer all the satellites for military use. Meaning your GPS system may not work ..it will be locked out. I dont know if any of you have considered this angle. Plan on it for sure. Olde fashioned maps and compass will have to do.

I dont think most people know that in extreme situations the military has the ability to comandeer all transportation...trains, planes ships,tractor trailers,and even your cars. Same with fuel supplies, food stuffs, medicines even doctors and hospitals..even the telephone systems thus affecting your abilit to use your computer...et al. This is one of the functions of FEMA, The transportation department and others. It is just not advertised much to the public. The public is to remain ignorant of this information.

One of the things I have trained myself to do is to make antennas out of copper wire or tubing. I keep several rolls on hand all times of this Radio Shack stranded copper wire in about 75 foot lengths at 14 gauge on the wire gauge scale. When I use one to replace or mend my existing antennas I replace it quickly so as to have this wire on hand. In extreme conditions I would be cautious about transmitting on it...which I can do but for listening it is also very good. I have also learned to make an antenna TX/RX out of that twin lead flat wire ...FM/TV antenna type you see on the back of some stereos or televisions. I keep this around in rolls too. I keep one of these as a emergency antenna ready to go all the time for VHF frequency usage..locally. YOu just throw it over a tree with a fishing pole and crank it up into the air. Very portable. My cable feeding it is about 40 feet long..so about 30 feet of altitude works out well for receiving and transmitting. I have used this set up several times when the electricity has gone out on a olde car battery..for as long as 9 days after a hurricane. For the very long wave bands I use the stranded copper wire...also using a fishing pole to thread this over a tree.
Obviously I keep spare auto/marine batteries in my garage and charge/maintain them regularly. Expecially when learning that bad weather is upon us. This is a regular preparedness cycle at this house. Standard proceedure.

Something else for some of you to consider. If you have a receiver/transmitting radio. The receivers on these rigs generally dont use much electricity. It is the transmitters which use alot of battery drain. So use them sparingly unless you have a way to recharge. Consider this carefully both in the arena of longevity of your battery supply and whether you want to be found by inadvertant transmitting.
By this I mean someone with a direction finder ..who many be looking for you or someone using a transmitter. Sophisticated Direction finders today can locate you very quickly. And I mean very quickly.




Some more info for some of you to consider.
Thanks,
Orangetom

Orange, I've moved long distances at night in very different terrains ranging from Norwegian mountains to deep forrest in eastern finland (in military exercises and in unfamiliar areas) The key to move in "dark" ("" since it's never truly dark outdoors) is to slow down and learn to instictively feel the terrain you are walking on...
But i do admit 15 years of orienteering has given me an ability move easily in nature and the feeling of ground as i run or walk is my spine...

As for radios, You can make antennas that transmit quite narrow beams from 15m of wire, you just need to put it up right (works at least with military VHF/HF Radios) HF is handy if you need to keep contact with a friend hundreds of kilometers away

PS. Try to go outdoors outside the city ligh "waste" area and test it for your self, once you overcome the fear of the dark, you'll be just fine...




PPS. Ditch the GPS, it WILL be useless in a crisis, at least for those not in USA and most likely for americans too.

Ahh..yes...I thought so...yes.

You've had extensive military training and are no stranger to moving about in the night. The night is a friend to you.

Having worked this shipyard I am no stranger to its terrain..day or night. Night as stated is my prefered shift. I love the nights. The nights comfort me ..nights cover me....they are my friend.
I am not being smug or self promoting when I say this Northwolf..but I worked nights for a number of years before I realized that alot of these hot shot types on days would never make it on the graveyard shifts or about at night. Not as a steady diet...day after day. Both in the offices and down on the waterfronts. My point is that moving about at night and not being intimidated by it is also an attitude... a state of mind so to speak. This does not make one better than others..per se..but it definitely makes one different.

I dont mind going about town here in this city at night to do alot of my shopping. IT is not crowded then either. Not that I am not armed..I just prefer to shop at night ..far less crowds and lines. The less noticed I am the better I like it.
Thats just me.

In the woods and forests it would be a different tale for me until I learn the trick you have stated. I still dont recommend it for the average "tenderfoot" or daywalker. They will get hurt quickly if they are not careful.

However...in the scenerios often posted here..no matter what time of the day one travels ..the theme seems to be to travel without being seen. To reduce ones liabilitys.

thanks for your post Northwolf,
Orangetom

NOrthwolf,

I agree ..ditch the GPS. Get used to doing it manually...manual overide..the olde school ways. Dont get to dependent on technology. Many a hurricane survivor here in the states has learned this quickly and to their shock. Most of the technology craps out and you have to run around barefoot...without tech. Many dont know what to do.

It really pisses me off when the electricity goes out and the people behind the counters dont know what to do or how to do a manual overide.
They have never heard of a calculator or pen and paper to write a recipt.
How did we ever make it this far???

Thanks,
Orangetom

One topic we haven't discussed here is the about hideout/cache itself.
What kind of a hideout you plan to build?
How is it Hidden?
How do you plan to go there and keep it's location hidden?

I suggest you read some military guides on how to establish covert squad/platoon level operation bases into hostile area. I don't know if there are any in available English (Unclassified) Some stories about LR Recon activity during WW2 might give you some ideas too (same rules still apply) Several books about Finnish LR Patrols in ww2 would be essential, but i don't know if there are any translated to english...

Allso LR Recon quides that explain how to clandestinely move in hostile lands and how to evade people chasing you would be a good read... most likely older SF manuals etc...

Originally posted by DeusEx
Springfield is well known for excellent (and extremely pricey) quality firearms.

I half agree

The Springfield XD line of pistols is very affordable, and very high quality.

The new XD45, which is a high capacity (13 +1) semi auto in .45ACP can be had for just $450 plus tax in my local gun store, I know because I just picked one up.

Awesome gun, great price - and a LOT of firepower for a handgun.

I agree that their 1911s are certainly not cheap though.

This is a great thread, mainly because I'm paranoid and quite often broke

Since we're talking about the cheapest weapons you can find, and since we're mostly talking about using them in a breakdown of society scenario, I thought I'd bring up the good old "Improvised Munitions Handbook"

I don't know how many have been produced, but I've read an American IMH from the Vietnam War. An ex-green beret I know had one. It contains diagrams and blueprints for creating geurilla type weapons. Everything from fuses for a molotov, to 12 gauge shot guns and 9 mils, to land mines, all made with household material, all tested by the US of A. Now, I know these weapons are unreliable and dangerous at best, but if you're on a budget this is shoestring lol

It's deffinitly a good read and most deffinitly an inclusion in your bug out kit.

I am not talking about the cheapest weapon I can find.

I am talking about the weapons and tools I can afford with certain features for the cheapest price. A significant difference.

#1 on my list is dependability/reliability. THen comes other features Ammo type, accuracy etc etc.

Same with radios,shoes etc etc.

Cheap weapons and tools are not necessarily reliable/dependable. Individual skill can make up for only so much. It helps to have a depnedable/reliable tool.

When your hind parts are in the wringer you are not going to be debating price.
Something for some of you to consider.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Consider:

SKS rifle- 200$.

Springfield Armories M14 varaint: 1400$+

Both and are excellent weapons and exceptionally reliable, with abundantly available ammunition. the diffrence is aproximately...well, seven times the price. Up here, I can get an M14 for 399$+ tax. Hooray for cheap chinese copies!

DE

Any Suggestions for countrys such as the UK where guns are Illigal and only regualy carried by Poilce and hard core criminals?

i have some golf clubs and a baseball bat and a cricket bat but this does me no good unless i get close

i belive it is just about legal to own a cross bow / archery style bow and arrow

no tazers or cs spray for us either

Si

Originally posted by Eternal_Question
Any Suggestions for countrys such as the UK where guns are Illigal and only regualy carried by Poilce and hard core criminals?

Hmmm... I suggest a continental congress unanimously agreeing upon a declaration of independence, followed by a revolution and a new national constitution with specific amendments allowing civilians the right to bear arms and organize a militia.

However, that's a helluva lot of work and takes a few hundred years to get right...

So, in lieu of that, maybe visit America, go to Texas, visit a gun show, buy a "collector's piece" slip a $50 to the merchant, and then FedEx it to your flat in England. All of which is technically quite legal up to this point. What you decide to do with it when it arrives is entirely up to you.

Of course, that's also extremely expensive, and you may not want a gun at all. In that case, if you are still desiring ranged weaponry, I would recommend learning how to use a sling. It's portable, has almost no "moving parts" to break down, easily concealed, lightweight, and you can use anything from rocks to flaming cans of whoopass for ammunition. And thanks to physics and centrifugal force, you can get enough velocity to make it lethal against all but the most heavily armored opponents.

Now, that said, I am absolutely abysmal at the sling. In my last attempt to hit a target I ended up smashing my car windshield... which was behind me. So you may want to go out in a large field or something in order to practice.

Or, for less "oomph" but more accuracy, perhaps a very well made slingshot with an armbrace. However, I don't know if you can get enough force to be lethal to anything larger than a small animal. Which'd be great for food purposes but a bit thin on defense.

Hope this helps.

I found a decent piece of wood that I think would make a good sling shot, but does anyone have any detailed plans of how to make a good and reliable sling shot. I want to get some plans that create the strongest yet simplest sling shot so that in situation X, it would be easy to make a sling shot out of everyday items.

Did a google search and found a site that showed how to make a slingshot. The website also has ALOT of really good info on survival.

Heres the website : www.m4040.com...

[edit on 12-6-2006 by enlightened_smurf]