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posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
OH..and it is definitely good to support her..yes..not always physically but I think the emotional support is equally as important as physical support. Giving her encouragement that she can accomplish something not natural to her. Something she is not wont to do herself...this is very important. To teach her not to be afraid or intimitated by certain things. Some things which come naturally to men are a huge obstacle to many women. Dont cut them down or off for thier fears..dont rescue them as a career ..but encourage them step by step to deal with these things themselves.


Yes, Orangetom-Exactly my point of supporting-I didn't know if your chip was so big as to obscure your vision in this area buddy, and I'm glad to see it is not.

This is an important part of balance for a man to be willing to give a woman security in his reasurrance. To mock a woman, to make her feel weak because of her inexperience or inability or fears of failure in anything, is the low brow way for a man to feel manly...

... when if he'd instead teach her, show her, encourage her, explain to her, and support her in all ways, she not only grows and feels strengthened, but this security he is willing to nurture makes him more manly in her eyes, then any of his own abilities

You write as long winded as myself sometimes Olde Man so it's hard to keep up with everything you say!


as always, thanks!





















posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
I will say (knowing that I hope Frau Dr. will show up and read some of this stuff, maybe by wednesday or so), that I think a big part of it is training the other person.

We train people in how to treat us. Every thing you put up with teaches the other person that this will get them a positive result. When you get mad and it costs them too much, the other person will try a different tactic.


Well, Herr Dr...since you and the missus are the male and female anomolies, you no longer have a say here!


Just kidding!! Your perspective is outstanding ( and depresses me greatly at the same time! (jealousy) )

Yes, I see your interpretation of training...but semantics aside, to split hairs, positive reinforcement to achieve a desired result in behaviour, and likewise negative reaction to discourage more of the same negative beaviour in a well balanced healthy relationship is not the same as women who train a man to 'perform' and not with the intent of balance, but for imbalance...to perform and perform and perform and he is then judged by how much of what he does for her instead of who he is to her.


Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Besides, it leaves flesh-tone smudges on the upholstery in the back seat. . .





Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
I think most men choose a partner based on how it will impress people. Like a woman trying to marry a doctor. But eventually, you realize that love is a verb.


I agree to some extent, that people do care what others think about their choices...but not always...I've gone against the grain before...it was equally as disasterous...actually, I should have cared what people thought...they were right-it was NOT a good match!


Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
You can train any person to give you intimacy in a way that satisfies you, if they are willing to learn.


oh...if that were only true... if ONLY!!! (I feel almost a bitter diatribe coming on
)

Well, in this one instance here, my experience may actually trump you. In my own personal experience I know this is simply not the case. In my experience this is simply not true and I've tested it...I once thought so, but it does not matter if you are speaking of sexual intimacy here or emotional intimacy...some things can not be taught, nor learned by all people...even sometimes if they are willing unfortunately it is not enough...

... or by the actual effort involved, it defeats the purpose. Argh! The irony! :bnghd:

...if someone is obviouslty trying too hard...then it is not real, and that is no good for me...sexually or emotionally....I don't like anyone to sell themselves out for me-or try to sell themselves to me...I like mutual gratification in everything.

For example...I like to think alot about alot of things...I like to talk about things (gosh this is coming as a huge surprise, huh guys?) and besides enjoying traditional sexual intimacy like everyone else, I have very specific sexual/emotional needs that someone who does not intellectually stimulate me, is not capable of an intellectual/emotional intimate connection with me usually, and is not something that can be taught...this intimacy...this connection...

I don't want someone who will listen to me...I want someone who enjoys listening to me...I don't want someone who will talk to me about subjects which interest me...I need someone who enjoys talking to me, and even educating me on things I didn't know!

...it's like trying to make someone have common interests, or care about something they just don't...so even if they are eager to please, willing to try...it doesn't ensure success that they could learn to actually care about something they don't...

I cannot train someone to be intellectually stimulating to me, nor sexually stimulating....sure, I can teach someone the basic mechanical applications of specific sexual acts until it becomes more natural for them, however take something more subjective...like talking dirty...I'm sorry...that is not something everyone can learn to do! The simple fact of it-for me-is when it comes to talking dirty, there are only about a few specific things I really really like to hear, and otherwise, anything can be said as long as it's honest, instinctual, and usually blatantly sexual...

but you can not teach just anyone to be able to honestly, instinctually sexually verbal...some might like it as much as me, others might be unsure but take to it quite naturally, and others might willing but unsuccessful at making it work just because it's not what they are comfortable doing and then it's not natural, and then...forget it.

So know not everything can be taught/learned..which I why I like what you say next...


Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
So find a person you enjoy who is a good student, and teach them what pleases you. Learn to make them feel good, too.

The loving is a lot better when you actively enjoy the other persons company afterward, when you can enjoy a game of scrabble on your honeymooon, or snorkeling in the surf behind your hotel.

Romance is a conversation. The relationship ends when the two of you run out of things to talk about.


so it's not so much you can teach anyone anything, but make sure of two things...that the person you choose can be taught what you like, and make sure you like to be with the person for more than sex. I second that entirely


Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Looking at the completion of our first decade, Frau Dr. and I have so many inside jokes that for an outsider, it would be like going to a showing of "Monty Python's Holy Grail" or "Rocky Horror Picture Show" in a foreign language theatre with only English subtitles.

You'd wonder what we were laughing at, and why the jokes don't make sense.


I can only imagine! And entirely envy you!

[edit on 31-1-2006 by think2much]



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by LostSailor
Think2Much, your post reminds me of a book I am currently reading. A book written by Tom Wolfe called "I am Charlotte Simmons." (snip)It really is a great read, and I highly recommend it if you get the chance.



Thanks for the recommendation Sailor-sounds right up my alley for endeavoring to understand human sexuality. I will put it on my list...admittedly I am behind in my reading of late...I think it's my addiction to ATS/BTS!!



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
Its just that the way you described the book...it came across like a college soap opera. Sort of a who's sleeping with whom!!


In some ways it's understandable olde man-with our jaded view of what is out there for entertqainment these days, but it's in the eye of the beholder...re-read what LostSailor wrote realizing I believe the book is about human sexuality and the role of the pressures of society in it.

just as we discuss here

The book is about human sexuality from what I gather, right Sailor? A girl who is academically superior and going off to an ivy league school...but when she gets there it's not through her intellectual achiements she seeks validation, but through her sexuality

Likewise the athlete on campus feels an obligation to himself or others to screw every girl on campus or he isn't what he appears to be through athletic accomplishment alone...a real man...

etc...

thats what I got from his post



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 02:06 PM
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Hello again Olde Man,

you posted:... "still for MANY a woman this movement became something entirely different...it became a competition for superiority instead of equality

suddenly men were being bashed and degraded from every angle and seen as inferior, chauvinsitic, and ultimately not needed by a "real" woman...a *Real* woman doesn't need a man, or yeild to a man...etc

Even commericals which cater to alot of women as their marketing target perpetuated this male bashing thinking by portraying men stereotypically (or have so in the past) as slobs, the dumb husband, the sports fanatic...just doing stereotypical things, being an idiot or screwing things up in one way or another. "

I have noticed exactly this thing for which you post...most of it only in one format however.... What I call "Nagging". These tv programs are to me nagging. They nag in the manner in which they portray life and conditions around them..not far from whining. The common denominator is that they usually solve the situation by nagging and whining...in thier portrayal. They dont often solve problems or situation themselves but intstead nag and get someone else to take the risk while they grade papers so so speak. This is what passes for maturity and savy in most of these programs. When you actually have to take the risk with your personal safety or moneys earned to solve problems you mature very fast...not the appearence of maturity and being grown up..this is a huge difference in perception.
This is one conditioning I have imbedded in myself..for which I was not intrested in solving by my labors, time, or moneys ..the womans tree problems down the street from me. While I was not nagged per se...I just felt it was something she needed to address ..not solve by getting me to solve it for her. In otherwords she needed to take care of it herself.
By the way..she did get a couple of guys she knew to get it down and cut up for her. They rescued her....no problem ..glad it wasnt me. It gave me more time to finish my book on Hillary.

Oh ..speaking of male bashing...if She makes it into the White House..you are going to see this conduct repeated ..carte blanche..again. It has subsided somewhat ..but it will come back..judging by the type of people she is wont to put in the staff around her.

Reyna4fitness and Dr Strangecraft.
You know it is intresting what you post about young males. I have noticed that very thing in the women I have dated with young kids. I have a large garage ..which I spend alot of time in knocking about getting things done or projects in which I like to problem solve. Lots of tool and equipment are obviously stored in my garage. The young kids especially the boys love to come into my garage and look around. I sometimes put them to work helping out..but I must watch them carefully as thier are tools and equipment which can hurt them ..if not handled correctly. I have extra safety glasses and several pairs of hearing protection ...ear muffs ..for very loud jobs and tasks.
I never really dwell on it much as certain kinds of work and problem solving are such a ingrained part of my personna...but these kids especially the males are drawn to it ...like a magnet. I dont mind teaching them if I have the time or the danger is not too great. Obviously one must use discretion as to the task and danger involved. The key here is to teach them to be responsible and careful..while enjoying the task/problem solving.

I did this too with a young girl..the granddaughter of one of the older ladies I was seeing...she needed a science project ...involving a light bulb..to show how the DC circuit is closed by a switch to turn the light bulb on and off. Would I help her put it on a board for her science class?? A trip to the auto parts store got us a suitable switch and the colour coded wiring we needed. She got no free pass...I showed her how to strip the ends of the wiring. Mount it to the board..in a neat and orderly manner.
An olde flashlight and the bulb provided us with the rest. The flashlight provided us the battery holder and the bulb was positioned at the other end of the boad connected by the neatly arranged wiring.
Somewhere along the line I go the idea of inserting a old morse code keyer I had..in parallel with the light circuit. I showed her how light signals can be used to communicate..and took her to my ham radio set up. She got a kick out of how people could communicate with dots and dashs. We just modified this to work with a light bulb.
A bit more labor on her part ...and the keyer was mounted. I printed her off the code from the web..and she was off. It took a few hours as she was not adept at tools or certain movements with her hands but she struggled through it. She didnt quit although it got frustrating for her at times. I can respect that....you take a break and snack or drink..a trip to 7-eleven for a slurpee and come back later. She did well on her project and got a good grade. I was glad to have helped her.

You know..I became aware by events like this..how males who can teach kids..especially males are in short supply. Patience is a definite requirement here..kids can be very trying. Especially if you are accustomed to a much ordered structure than around kids. But they need the instruction ..both from males and females. They are not getting enough hands on....television is not a good instructor.

Thanks again to all,
Orangetom



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 02:42 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

...The children cling to Blum's trouser legs as he walks through a classroom. They are so starved for adult male input that they will touch a stranger if it will "get a man's attention."

Makes me want to rage and puke at the same time. (snip)

Now, I believe homosexuality is a choice that each person is free to make. And I don't want to pass judgment on other persons' adult choices.

From what I've seen of young men growing up, I have a theory that at least some boys who will grow up to be gay have an emotionally absent father, and/or a domineering mother.



I agree. I've seen it played out and it doesn't surprise me when young boys sexualize the need for male bonding and make choices later in life based on those continued basic emotional needs for male nurturing.

Likewise, you will find girls that sexualize the same need, leading to promiscuity all too often.

When thinking of issues of human sexuality , self esteem, and peer pressure too often the prevalent facotr in today's society is the absence of a good strong male authority figure. A real man

This is another reason men do not KNOW HOW to be real men, they've had no example or experience with them themselves...

and why there is such a NEED for men to stand up, take on the role of a real man, and perpetuate a new positive and necessary imapact of real men in society....TODAY!!!!!

Also, neglect by and/or conditional love and approval of a mother also plays an important role in the development of self esteem and sexuality...especially if it is combined with the absence of a man's influence, or just a lack of a real man role model as described when the male role model is there, but distant/ abusive/or so supressed by a domineering woman he is emasculated beyond recognition of him as a male at all.

Thanks Reyna and Herr Dr for brining up this issue



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 03:06 PM
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Agree with your assessment here ..Dr Strangecraft and others too.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Wow!! Is this a short post or what ..I'm slipping up here!!!



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
Wow!! Is this a short post or what ..I'm slipping up here!!!


Yeah really Olde Man-what was that?

A drive-by-posting?



(I have yet to respond to your last *real* post myself though!)



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

We used to talk about little boys "wanting to marry a girl just like the one that married dear old dad." But what if your father was a puke? A self-centered domineering bully? A bad man?

Then, male or female, you'd spend the rest of your life torturing yourself, and taking it out on the world, that you had a parent that didn't know how to love and be loved.


An extremely valid point. The same can be said about women who grew up with an absent or... deadbeat dad so to say. I dated a girl once. Yes, I dated, who filled me in on her utter hatred towards her dad. I never met anyone so filled with hate towards another human being.

Well, this young woman it turns out had trouble staying with men in long term relationships. At the first argument, or any sign that the man disagreed with her she would cut tail and run. Run right into the arms of another man. It was sad, I really liked this girl and gave her more attention then most women I dated. I don't open up to well usually.

But, as happens in most relationships, we got into an argument one day. Something silly. Next thing I know, she's out the door and with another man one... two weeks later. It just so happens this other man was a good friend of mine... But that's a whole other story.

I really do think a lot of this stems from her childhood hatred of her own father. She is always going to be in and out of relationships if, at the first sign of disagreement, she cuts off the relationship. Sad really.



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by LostSailor
... The same can be said about women who grew up with an absent or... deadbeat dad so to say. I dated a girl once. Yes, I dated, who filled me in on her utter hatred towards her dad. I never met anyone so filled with hate towards another human being.

Well, this young woman it turns out had trouble staying with men in long term relationships. (snip) Sad really.


sad and prevalent in today's society.

What you'll often find though is, it isn't just the absent dad, but the mother who villianizes him. Women do a great disservice to their children when they villanize an absent father. They are better of making him out to be a hero even if he is an ass...and letting the child make their decision as a well adjusted adult...

not saying lie, but saying things like "your father loves you...he just isn't good at being a father...and we weren't good as husband and wife..."

instead of saying "your father is a looser, he never loved me, he cheated on me, just like all men do, and he doesn't even care enough about you to send child support and you'll probably never even see him again in life because he has no interest in you or your brother..." etc...

tell, me how that is good for any child? and yet women do this...and men often are the loosers they describe, but children needn't hear it

Anyway Sailor, what you may also find in this type of girl, is that her mother had commitment issues. Men were probably seen as expendable and her mother might have had many boyfriends as well...cuttting tail at the first sight of conflict as well and thus training her daughter by example.

...and lets not underestimate the power of the game of *the damsel in distress*...women with emotional baggage... women often looking for a man with whom they can sell their tragic life story to...of hating their father for example and have that man "rescue her" and try to "make up" for the emotional damage of her father...loving her deeply and proving it with his loyalty

however, when conflict arrises, she has opportunity for crisis, and runs to be comforted by a new man as she now as the trigger she needs to be in in distress and thus be "rescued" anew by a new man and have the emotional high that comes with it, and with a new man to prove his love to her and perpetuate her cycle.



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 08:38 PM
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I have to say that this is one of the best threads I've read in BTS in the past couple of years. Coming out of a serious relationship not too long ago, reading what you guys posted here has given me a different perspective on many things and I've learned a lot.

Thank you, everyone who contributed.



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 08:58 PM
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Please see the receptionist on your way out, and ask her for an appointment in one week. Remember to get your parking reciept validated.

Remember, only you can decide how happy you really are.





posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 09:00 PM
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Originally posted by Ocelot
I have to say that this is one of the best threads I've read in BTS in the past couple of years. Coming out of a serious relationship not too long ago, reading what you guys posted here has given me a different perspective on many things and I've learned a lot.


Hehe... hell yeah. I'm going to show my manliness to the next woman I date, and force her to read this thread before the relationship goes any further.


Of course, in the most sensitive manner possible.:wink:


Originally posted by orangetom
suddenly men were being bashed and degraded from every angle and seen as inferior, chauvinsitic, and ultimately not needed by a "real" woman...a *Real* woman doesn't need a man, or yeild to a man...etc


Man... WHy do I get the feeling I've heard this before? Or seen it maybe? Ohhhhhhh... That's right!!! Well at least Homer kept a job and helped raise his family.



Just thought the thread could use a bit of humor.

[edit on 31-1-2006 by LostSailor]



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 09:11 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
Remember, only you can decide how happy you really are.




As good a words to live by as any. Thank you



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 09:34 PM
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Originally posted by Ocelot
I have to say that this is one of the best threads I've read in BTS in the past couple of years. Coming out of a serious relationship not too long ago, reading what you guys posted here has given me a different perspective on many things and I've learned a lot.

Thank you, everyone who contributed.


Thanks for the feedback Ocelot. I wish more people would read and contribute to this thread...

but then again, sometimes quality is indeed better than quantity, and I do find those I'm posting with here in this thread to be some of the highest quality I've come across

I too thank everyone who has contributed here. Sincerely



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 09:38 PM
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Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Remember, only you can decide how happy you really are.


Interesting choice of words Herr Dr...to say happiness is a choice, not a state of being or emotion

I do believe like love, happiness can be a choice.

We cannot control all of the elements in our environment, but we can make conscious choices how we respond to them

happiness is a choice



posted on Jan, 31 2006 @ 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by LostSailor

Hehe... hell yeah. I'm going to show my manliness to the next woman I date, and force her to read this thread before the relationship goes any further.


Of course, in the most sensitive manner possible.

Yes, well, I've decided to go ahead and make up the Vive Testosterone T-shirts...you can give yours to her as a sleep shirt.


But just so you know...if you are a real man, and now a practicing discerning one...you'll be attracting a quality of woman who wont need to read this to be the type of woman you deserve and want


Originally posted by orangetom
suddenly men were being bashed and degraded from every angle and seen as inferior, chauvinsitic, and ultimately not needed by a "real" woman...a *Real* woman doesn't need a man, or yeild to a man...etc


Um, not to juvenile and petty...but you quote Orangetom, and he was quoting ME there... < ahem >


Originally posted by LostSailor
Man... WHy do I get the feeling I've heard this before? Or seen it maybe? Ohhhhhhh... That's right!!! Well at least Homer kept a job and helped raise his family.

Just thought the thread could use a bit of humor


Oh sure Sailor! Degrade the thread just when we were gaining some respect!



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 01:03 AM
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Hey all,
Tapping into this thread, honestly is shedding some insight into my own misgivings as I was growing up. I can only offer a females perspective on why I did the things I did, and alot is coming into clarity now as I read this topic. I hope you'll all pardon me for the crudeness and honesty behind my last post, it's been something that has haunted me for years.

I was a girl with an absent father. We have no brothers and there are only three girls, I being the eldest. I was old enough to watch my father beat my mother into a pulp, remember mom dragging us out of bed so we could track him down at his secretary's apartment, and the custody battles along with the stepmother who abused me-by telling me I was fat, stupid or ugly.

When I was younger, I was daddy's little girl. Being we had no boys, my brother died before I was born, my father chose to treat me as I was his son. By 5 I was hunting Pheasant and Quail. I learned to work on cars and fix drywall, I preferred Football to barbies. I have always been a tomboy, but I do believe had I not been trying to seek my daddy's approval
I wouldv'e resorted to the more girlie types of endeavors. The main reason I joined the ARMY for 8 years, was simply because I was so desperate for my fathers approval, I figured if I walked the same path he did, I would finally be noticed again.


I didn't put 2 and 2 together, but let me share a few more personal tidbits.
He remarried when I was 9. She was a domineering witch, who had a teenage daughter. While my father was ordered to give my mom custody, he refused to pay child support, this led to actually being the TOYS FOR TOTS "kids. My stepmom and stepsister lived in the house he built for them, along with their horses, boats, and vacations, my mom was barely able to afford heat in winter(Many mornings before school on Winter's days we took icy showers because the heat was off again for non payment.)This was a time before they werent allowed to disconnect utilities before april 14th or after Oct 30th.

I lived with them briefly, and was treated weirdly, my dad is always a schmuck around women, he forgets he has kids, and nothing else matters except making that woman happy. (A Perfect example of a performer)When I was 13 He was away for work, and my step sister and I got into an altercation, my stepmother than beat me and I ran away. He came to get me with her and they beat me mercilessly for 6 hours. Broke 6 of my ribs, my nose, 2 black eyes, and a broken hand, dislocated my neck. He and she dropped me off back at my moms, hands tied in back of me through my ankles so I was hog tied, with phone wire, on the curb, rang the doorbell and left. MInd you they lived on Long Island NY and My house was in Northern NJ-it was about a 3 hour ride tied like that.

I still sought his approval after that. (I still do,but we talk maybe once a month now, so I really don't give too many craps anymore.) Around this time my relationship with my dad was severed, his reason, his wife couldnt deal with me.

I then became on the quest for someone to fulfill the void I was missing, so I lost my one treasure I had left, my virginity.At 13

I up until I met my hubby have never been able to stay in a relationship long (4 months max)I figured I would do everything in my power to chase them away because they would only leave anyways. What I wanted was the true guy that I could tell all of these horrible things to, and hed still stay. I never found that until I met my hubby.

I have pushed, fought, kicked bitten and scratched, but he will not let me go. And for this I am eternally grateful.

He isn't the hottest on the planet, hes the sensitive musician, and suffers from PMS more than I do. But to me, he's perfect, he'll share a pint of Ben and Jerry's with me, run to the local Burger king to pick me up onion rings that Im craving(Im 5 months pregnant now so its the most wonderful thing on the planet) ANd tirelessly tell me Im beautiful EVERY single day. I could put on 50 pounds, and I'd still be beautiful to him. This is what truly matters to the heart.

PS
I did go after the geeky types, but they were usually kind of scared of me. Alot of rumors went around in high school, and literally even they would cringe hearing my name.


PPS sorry I was so looooong winded again, Im all emotional right now, damn hormones



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 06:41 AM
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Originally posted by think2much

Um, not to juvenile and petty...but you quote Orangetom, and he was quoting ME there... < ahem >


Doh!!!

Sorry about that man...



posted on Feb, 1 2006 @ 08:45 AM
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Originally posted by LostSailor

Originally posted by think2much

Um, not to juvenile and petty...but you quote Orangetom, and he was quoting ME there... < ahem >


Doh!!!

Sorry about that man...


Did I say I wasn't juvenile and petty? Who am I kidding?


No problem Homer-just had to razz ya





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