Viva Testosterone! The male revolution!

"What are we girlfriends now?" (Dennis Leary voice-from the movie The Ref)



In all seriousness though, thank you for sharing an extremely personal story. Now, please don't take this wrong, but let me point out that you are an atypical woman with the extent of the abuse you endured as a child.

I would definately have to point out it was these factors, not society nor 'the fact highschool boys prefer skinny cheerleading types' that affected your self esteem in life, and influenced the way you proceeded to interact in the world seeking, as you say, to fill the void for a loving fullfilling nurturing childhood which you were denied, and even a huge factor in you attempting suicide.

Beyond that connection to this thread, I want to say I cannot believe your father and stepmother were not arrested and charged with assault for one thing. But that is all I will comment about specifically.

Furthermore, I want to add that one's need to purge, especially when they become introspective and retrospective about their life, events, people and self is understandable, and cathartic. To do it in front of another-even an online audience-is like the tree falling in the forrest...if there was no one to hear...does it make a sound?

So I want you to know, I read every word. I cringed. I thought of every implication and impact it could have had on you. I want you to know that-that you have been heard, you made a sound, your nasty childhood has been "put out there" so to speak, and you are not judged for it.

Again, don't take this wrong, but I might add that you may benefit from professional counselling...it's a way to regularly have someone to hear your tree fall so to speak and offer feedback.

Finally, I am glad you have found someone who brings balance to your life-you certainly need it-but we all do. I hope you appreciate him fully and in understanding yourself, will strive to progress in a healthy way in your life for you both...all of you...congratulations on becoming a family...may you give that child the safe environment you never had, and all the attention, love, and nurturing you were denied.

my best to you

I read the whole post too, and was quite moved.

I didn't reply. I figure anything I say would be, at best unhelpful. What can you say? At least it's in the past now.

I suspect that everyone, even those who were not mistreated, probably have some stuff in our pasts that hurt us deeply, even if it was just the ways of circumstance (parents killed in a car wreck when the children are small) or stuff that was unavoidable somehow. (surviving poverty, war, etc.)

Where there is life, there's hope. And future hope is more powerful than all the evils of the past.


.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Where there is life, there's hope. And future hope is more powerful than all the evils of the past.

I concur!

To hope...to life...to the future...
May men become REAL men,
and may REAL women truly appreciate them for it!

I just started reading this thread and many people are so open about themselves that I doubt I will ever be capable of such in public.

denial28,
I read your post and I am still reeling from what I have read. Part shock and part inability to comprehend it all . I appreciate you sharing that with everybody. I thought my childhood was crazy but after your story I know that I had it easy.

About the abuse and all, I feel that it was something very wrong to be done to a child and that too by a parent. In this day and age I hope such things are not happening. Anyway, I am glad that you have found happiness at last. Lord knows you deserve it.
About the sanctity of virginity, I understand what you mean.





[edit on 1-2-2006 by IAF101]

Well,
You wanted to know what goes on in the heads of females that causes them to be such attention hogs, where they make men feel as though they must perform, so yeah I guess we are girlfriends in a way

The fact that I have received such touching responses shows exactly who the true men are in the world. Basically what I was driving at, was the lengths we as women will go through, to gain approval from the opposite sex. You wouldn't believe the amount of women who have been through almost the same story as I have, but never have the courage of faceing it

PLease don't think I was trying to vent for a pity party, I have had YEARS of counseling-but thats another story

ANyways, I must pose this question. DO men feel the need to perform simply because naturally they are gravitating to the higher maintenance female? IT makes sense simply because even in nature, it is the brighter plumage that gets the males chest puffing so to speak.


Psychologically speaking, men naturally gravitate to the more womanly woman, IE ROund hips where the hip to waist ratio is tiny waist, full breasts.
Or is it all females that make you feel as though you need to perform?

The basis of every species is the competition of vying for the females attention after all. To procure your bloodlines.

[edit on 2/1/2006 by denial28]

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

I wish she would post on here. she claims she's forgotten her password. . .

Her work is also insane this week; been out of town and will be going again in about two weeks.

On the one hand I want to say that our relationship is not "patriarchal" and "father knows best," it is true that my chair is at the head of the dining room table. On the other hand, we have to alternate the kids so there's less "noise" at the dinner table. One on each side of me . . .

We don't spend a lot of time playing out specific domininant/submissive roles in our relationship. When I have "put my foot down" about jobs she was taking that were simply not possible, it is also true that I have more experience than she does, being a decade older.

On the other hand, I was considering a move across the continent for a PhD program, and she was pretty traumatized by the threat of that; she couldn't stand to be that far away from her family. I was not totally sanguine about the position, so it was easier for me to say "we'll say within a day's drive of your family." If it is meant to be, I'll tackle that program some day. My family comes before my career. Just like it has for her.

I think when outsiders hear traditional families talk, they imagine an impossible amount of rigidity. But I don't boss her around; she doesn't step and fetch all the time. Her career is really taking off, and I am thrilled to cut back a little at work, and be a father who spends time with his children each day. We are flirting with the idea of home school, because we could alternate days of the week at home---but only for 2006 for sure. And do we make the change if our job demands might evolve away from that model?

I didn't really expect her to say "obey" in our vows. I wasn't holding out for it or anything. It does show the kind of person she is.

I'll tell you something else about her. When we were just dating, I had a serious midterm at 8:00 the next morning. I told her I had to cut the date short. I took her home and said good night. The next morning, as I was stepping out of the shower, there was a knock at the door. There she stood with a steaming hot plate of cinnamon rolls she'd made for me. Now, when is a guy going to see that in our time. A woman like that only comes along once in a lifetime.

I know, I sound totally patriarchal. But think about it. She got up even earlier than I did, say 5:00 a.m., to make out the dough and all that, cook it and so on, then drive over to my place before I'd even gotten dressed. And on her way to work in a hospital ER before going back to campus for classes. Just to show me what kind of woman she was and what kind of guy she thought I was. Again, one in a couple hundred million.

Without getting all theological and freaking out the worldlings on BTS, we can say that she is happier knowing that I am making some of the more complicated financial calculations. And I for my part am happy to sacrifice my best efforts to be worthy of her partnership.

I would say the key is less the question of who's in charge, as it is the fact that we both know that we are not in this marriage for what it will give us. We are in it for love, for the other person, and for our children.

When things are going well (which is sometimes), there's nothing like coming home to a happy family that is focused on each other instead of TV.
.

But you know those wacky leave-it-to-beaver types.

I really do exist, and my work really has been insane. It is really amazing to read all of the wonderful things that my dear husband strangcraft posts about me, our relationship, our family. It really is the way things are in our marriage. I can't imagine having anyone more perfect as a husband. He mentioned to me that he had done quite a bit of posting online about us and I asked him about it. I really am sort of flattered that he thinks so highly of me. Often I don't feel like I give him everything I should or care for him in better ways. I am always wishing that I would have or could do more for him and for the strangecraftlings. They are my joy, my family!

[edit on 2-2-2006 by frau dr]

Originally posted by frau dr
I really do exist, and my work really has been insane. It is really amazing to read all of the wonderful things that my dear husband strangcraft posts about me, our relationship, our family. It really is the way things are in our marriage. I can't imagine having anyone more perfect as a husband. He mentioned to me that he had done quite a bit of posting online about us and I asked him about it. I really am sort of flattered that he thinks so highly of me. Often I don't feel like I give him everything I should or care for him in better ways. I am always wishing that I would have or could do more for him and for the strangecraftlings. They are my joy, my family!

What can I say besdies....AAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW




You two deserve each other -and its so refreshing (when not annoying because of the jealousy it spawns in me ) to hear about such a good and balanced relationship

Thank you frau dr! It's nice to meet you!!

[edit on 2-2-2006 by think2much]

Originally posted by IAF101
I just started reading this thread and many people are so open about themselves that I doubt I will ever be capable of such in public.
[edit on 1-2-2006 by IAF101]

Well, you don't have to get so personal, just jump in any time with a thought or opinion. :-)

Originally posted by denial28
Well,
You wanted to know what goes on in the heads of females that causes them to be such attention hogs, where they make men feel as though they must perform, so yeah I guess we are girlfriends in a way

I was just joking you with the girlfriend coment you know-I really like Dennis Leary and his character in that movie.

As for wanting to know what goes on in the heads of females...

hhhmmmmm...I have a pretty damn good idea believe me!

... but I do enjoy your and everyone's participation from both genders.

I don't know that I've/we've said anything specifically about wanting to know what goes on in a womans head to make them act the ways they do. I think I know...society does...just as it infects the minds of men and makes everyone conform to certain behaviours...this is all generally speaking.

Personally, I have great insight into the female mind. Hell, for all you- or anyone- knows I could be a woman!

I stay basically androgenous online for the purpose of being able to discuss things from all sides without having gender biases read into everything I write. There is enough stereotypical gender bias in society.

However, people still apply gender biases to me-which is fine I don't mind, but I think I've had enough experience in life to know that I know human beings- my own gender and the opposite sex-enough to have quite a bit insight into both.

Really, that is what this thread is about. Gender biases and insight into those biases and how they affect our behaviour in society imposed roles of acceptable/expected beahviour in attracting a mate within those biases.

As we've discussed basically , women and men act in very stereotypical ways to be socially acceptable and gain a socially acceptable mate, however while achieving attracting a mate, there is much discord in relationships, much imbalance, unhappiness, etc...so why is that?

We pose the question: Why are we advertising ourselves-both genders- in ways that we know, have been taught by society, will draw the opposite sex to us...but because of the same society driven behavious we find they are people who can not, will not, do not make us happy...because they are counterfeit or we are...or both, right?

What has gone wrong?

Well, for one point of fact...and the reason I began this thread is because: men are not men anymore!

They are not TRUE to THEMSELVES they are true to a lie

Men mold themselves to be what society tells them to be, what their peers reinforce from their own need of reasurrance of their manlihood and male bonding, and they deny their true instincts in discerning a good mate who will compliment them and bring balance into their life.

Women reinforce this counterfeit behavior in men by attraction to them when they are being counterfiet-not true to themselves or the world, giving attention to them, and rewards of sex for those that behave and perform as society says they should... but ultimately they are not what the woman wants besides this exterior behavior and facade of being a man...they sell themselves and her short.

Now some women may be shallow enough that a performing man is enough...and some men may be stupid enough to think getting a piece on a regular basis and having a GF/wife completes the facade of success by society definitions -job, car, house, woman...so be it...

But most men have much more potential, and most women do too...but when they too defined their potential by society standards-the women become equally counterfeit and men don't know the difference.

They too overlook the real women then, not knowing how to spot a counterfiet, they go for what society sells as a woman, and pimp themselves out performing for her and find they end up with the same as they are...a counterfeit...a women who bought into the society driven lie.

Perhaps they don't consciously realize this...but it plays out in unahppiness and imablance everywhere you look you see it, hear about, and still they continue to behave in the same ways attracting the same types and not finding balance and happiness.

Women buy into the lies as much as men-even starving themselves and blowing all their money on clothes and makeup....working at jobs to have the money to spend on clothes and makeup...to attract a man...to perform...so she doesn't have to work perhaps...but can spend his money...on clothes and make up...and look pretty...and have a good looking financially successful (he doesn't have to be hard working-just successful) man.

It's been so long since real men were around women usually can't even recognize the few who are around. Society doesn't hand out-or shove down their throats-descriptions of what a real man is, does, etc...and so they often get overlooked in society while women go straight for the counterfiets -the ones advertising their society-defined manliess thorugh their performance factor etc.

So, in that I do want and welcome perspectives from all sides, all sorts, and both genders...I started this thread with the idea of trying to expose gender specific society driven roles of behavior-begining with a call to all men, to revolt aginst such society imposed performance driven emasculating behavior-and stand up and be real men.

it's a start right?

Viva testosterone!

Vive Progesterone!

Viva Balance!

Death to the tyrannical society driven steretypical counterfiet facade!



[edit on 2-2-2006 by think2much]

To continue with your post denial, and I'm sorry I didn't have tme to address the whole thing at once earlier...

Originally posted by denial28
Basically what I was driving at, was the lengths we as women will go through, to gain approval from the opposite sex.

I do understand what you are saying speaking of extreme lengths people go through for approval and the fact it plays out sexually, and concerning their base sexuality and physical attraction factor in women. Women are encouarged to use and advertise their sexuality and perform in sexual ways for acceptance, this is expected even.

Likewise, men are encouraged in acting in ways that are bascially emasculating to some degree, but supposedly are what validates them as being a man to women, and thus to themselves.

But women I think are secretly bitter about having to pimp themselves out, or openly defiant feminists who reject it...but still often they too fall victim to the cycle of imbalance by emasculating men...which in doing so, they encourage the same destructive society driven bias for what defines femininity and masculinity and what roles men and women should play in society etc. They thus perpetuate, hyppocritically mind you, stereotypical expectations for men's acceptable behavior to be defined by society and conform to their views.

So, though not through sexuality usually, and not as emotionally driven as women...still pschologically and physically with their behaviour, time, effort, money, etc men do too go to great lengths to perform for women, and in this process they too feel used and abused! And rightly so!

That is my point.

The act that women give up what is often most treasured in their quest for love, approval etc...their virginity and their body for sex, should not undermine the fact men give up what is treasured-or should be by them-their true masculinity and rights as a man.

The right to be respected by a woman despite how much money he makes, the car he drives, the clothes he wears, and how he will perform for her. I am not saying how he TREATS her...that must be respectable and the highest standards of conduct should be encouraged in men...but I mean the whole how high will he jump type of performance..through how many loops will he jump, etc...how expendable is he willing to be made to feel? Do you understand the lengths men are supposed to go to in todays' society to be attractive to women? Appreciated? Loved and accepted?

Not to undermine women puking to be skinny and beautiful, or giving up their virginity early in life, or feeling they have to "put-out" sexually and then do to earn love and respect...still, that seems almost as if women are getting off easy (NO PUN INTENDED!!) compared what men have to go through.

Originally posted by denial28
PLease don't think I was trying to vent for a pity party, I have had YEARS of counseling-but thats another story

no, I understand you needed to vent in general, especially pertaining to how you feel women must "perform" sexually and being attractive and as being valid to the topic at hand

The abuse you went through however is not a matter of what length a woman will go through for love and approval of men.

Instead it is a SAD SAD commentary to the great suffering children will endure for love and approval from parents.

This too is relevent to the topic at hand regarding how a child is neglected or abused-denied the nurturing they need as a child-being a driving force of seeking approval and love and nurturing in life.

Also it further shows the impact a father specifically can have in particular-continuing the point of how necessary proper father-child relationships are in both sexes' emotional development-and also proving real men are needed in the world...to become good fathers that will help a new generation become healthy and happy real men and women.

Originally posted by denial28
ANyways, I must pose this question. DO men feel the need to perform simply because naturally they are gravitating to the higher maintenance female? IT makes sense simply because even in nature, it is the brighter plumage that gets the males chest puffing so to speak.

Well, first you should know it is usually the male in the species that is brightly colored to attract the female! HA! Whaddaya think of that!? From beta fish, to peacocks! yep those beautiful birds with their brightly colored fanned out plummage...boys.

As for men gravatating to the women of high maintenance...well what else is there? That is the species these days-high maintenance!

No, seriously, ok...what I am saying is high maintence comes in MANY forms these days. You are a high maintenance woman. You have tons of emotional baggage. Don't take that wrong, but you realize this yourself in realizing you couldn't be kept happy and secure and would cut bait with guys routinely until your husband now.

So men perform in MANY ways for MANY types of "High Maintenance" women is my point. The fact is women have many needs, but they shouldn't have to all be met by the performance of men. Men should be accepted and loved and appreciated for who they are as much as women should!

Women will stop having sex with men just as easily as they will give sex-as leverage sometimes. Men will still perform, or will perform harder to gain her approval and respect again, evidenced by her willingness to have sex often. Men rarely take away their performing efforts, and often are left with no leverage in today's unbalanced relationship...and thus they are left to perform, while the woman decides what is what in the relationship, and how happy they are is usually defined by how happy she is, how well the man is performing etc.

Guys don't sit around for hours discussing their relationships...what is going well, or what is wrong, or right in it, or what needs improvement, or what needs to stop or start...or what a woman did or said and they don't complain about everything a woman did or did not do that day everyday etc...

On the otherhand...women are always mindful of these things...holding the reins so to speak, and guiding things where she wants it to go by dictating his behavior-deciding what is and isn't acceptable in her eyes for the relationship etc..and rewarding him with sex, or just peace-leaving him alone...or giving him the cold shoulder if he isn't not performing well or worse yet, nagging him to perform differently or better.

High maintence comes in the rich and poor alike, the shallow and the ignorant. I say ignorant because there are smart women who do this without knowing it is destructive or realizing they are high maintenence in the relationship.

The truly high maintence woman you speak of I think, who needs lots of materialistic things, and extreme "jump-to" behavior from men do attract men because they are usually very pretty to begin with and physical attraction is a huge factor for both genders, but as men are even more visually stimulated, then even more so for men.

These women have been treated differently for most of their life...valued for their attractiveness, they have come to appreciate it's POWER. You already know women use their sexuality, and feel they have to, that it is their most powerful tool in being valued and seeking acceptance and love...so these women are then well armed so to speak.

Thus because they have physical and sexual attractiveness, and easily draw men...then they become more demanding of those men because they feel they can be. This is reinforced by men who will compete to perform for her. So she becomes more high maintence feeling justified because if a man will not do her bidding...he is expendable...there are many waiting to take his place... therefore any man who wants to be with her must outperform the rest and never disapoint her...

she becomes confident in this and her air of confidence is too attractive...she is then the supreme challenge, because she will not just take any man, therefor to win her over, "everyone" lknows it will take a "real" man according to societies standards... and thus it validates the man who gets her...validates him to himself, his male peers, other women, society as a whole etc...because she is seen as hard to get and harder to please/keep...so men want to be the man that can-this is the conditioning men are used to and what is ultimately emasculating, but nobody seems to realize it

Originally posted by denial28
Psychologically speaking, men naturally gravitate to the more womanly woman, IE ROund hips where the hip to waist ratio is tiny waist, full breasts.
Or is it all females that make you feel as though you need to perform?

The basis of every species is the competition of vying for the females attention after all. To procure your bloodlines.
[edit on 2/1/2006 by denial28]

Psychologically and instinctually men gravitate to physical characteristics that are seen as healthy for perpetuating the species...it isn't the small waist, but the widerhips that instinctually speak to a man on a primal level-wider hips are often better for child-bearing-meaning less likey the baby would get stuck in the pelvic cavity and thus die and kill the mother during childbirth.

A strong fit body is a sign of health and for the same reasons of perpetuating the speicies-attractive.

Nice breasts are desireable because until modern days those were the only bottles around

etc

Now society sells what is attractive and sexy by exploiting the woman's body and exploiting eroticism and by bombardment of images of women until a certain model of woman has been tatooed onto the brain of men often

...but to answer your question, it isn't about high maintenace and beauty...lots of physically less desireable and average people around playing the same game, sold on the same biases..

so yes, in general it is all women that make men feel they need to perform in society today I think, as it usually is the woman holding the reigns of the relationship and deciding what makes the relationship work...ie how happy and fullfilled is she...and what the man can and should do to keep it that way or make it that way, etc

and yes men have always had to compete for women to ensure the species abd their bloodline in it, and I am not saying men should stop competing or trying to impress women...but HOW they do it and WHY need be changed and understood by men and women alike

I am saying to men, be real men, discerning men, and make sure the woman is a real woman worth a real man...don't buy a womans sex, and society's approval with your soul anymore in other words...the price has simply become too high

[edit on 3-2-2006 by think2much]

I need you to explain to me your view about the attraction of a format like Howard Stern.

I tried to watch this program a few times but it just became to obvious that he is another merchandizer of the type like Jerry Springer. Only for late night viewing by adults.
The problem I have with Howard is that his programming is mostly of the lowest common denominator. Continually. Whoever writes for his program continually likes to be totally depraved in thier presentation.

This seems to sell so much to a certain kind of person ..male and female.
I am just curious as to what you think the appeal is in it. It seems like more of monkey see monkey do.

Talk about prostituting ones self for a image. This program is textbook for this. To me Howard is the head pimp.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I need you to explain to me your view about the attraction of a format like Howard Stern.

It's hard to find the energy to express how I loathe such base behavior and those that promote it. It's almost like stooping to their level just to discuss it for me...leaves me feeling...like I need a good hot shower just to cleanse myself.

It's like if people really don't see what is wrong with him, his way of thinking, those around him, and the women that associate with those types...and actually enjoy their self-promotion through his exploitation...well then...there is little hope for them

What his programing does and who it targets and how easy of a prey they are...and how base his audience is...well it's a sad commentary on what passes for "funny" "cool" and "on the edge" in a society seeking to fullfill their base needs for acceptance within a certain extreme of bias that it's all about sexuality and shock and shrugging off tradition values etc...and when people say "Oh lighten up-it's Howard Stern-he's funny" I find those are the weakest of the types of guys that as easy fall prey to whatever else is sold to men to like within different peer groups to be acceptable.

To me then...they loose my respect. They obviously don't respect self respect as a concept-their's or anyone elses, thus to me they are of the lowest of low when it comes to lowest common denominators! You know?!

if men have to use base sexuality and vulgarity in the name of free-speech and behind the facade of rebelliously not conforming to the moral code imposed on the masses...etc etc..to be seen as a real man...then something is direly missing...

...because if a man likes women who don't respect themselves, promote themselves purely through their sexuality, and enjoy being sexually exploited because it validates them...especially those who will go to the extreme of doing so through the media to get the attention they want...well, then thay are not much of a real man, to find that the epitome of attractive, are they?

What they are saying in essence, is it's cool because it's easy...and Howard can get easy women to promote themselves by exploitation so it's cool...he's cool...these women openly sell themselves and all a man need do is be willing to buy...cool...

So they as a man are saying "I have nothing of worth to offer a woman or society, so I am willing to buy what is easily offered...to act base, and expect base behavior...it's easy to act that way and women who do are easy to validate" its the lowest common denominator of the easiest kind to think "this is the way it should be...men should be vulgar and women should be easy-it's all we have to offer"

To those that buy into that I say-go at it...you are likely right...you have nothing to offer a real woman, so buy into an easy one, you have nothing to offer of value to promoting a better society so be part of the problem-fine.

now, thats nice, huh?

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I tried to watch this program a few times but it just became to obvious that he is another merchandizer of the type like Jerry Springer. Only for late night viewing by adults.
The problem I have with Howard is that his programming is mostly of the lowest common denominator. Continually. (snip)

This seems to sell so much to a certain kind of person ..male and female.
(snip)Talk about prostituting ones self for a image. This program is textbook for this. To me Howard is the head pimp.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. There's no real psychological disection needed to explain Howard Stern and those that buy into his BS-it's just a sad commentary for how men lose their real substance and do become men worth nothing more -with nothing to offer a real woman etc. and how the women are the epitome of women selling themselves through their sexuality.

:shk:

Pathetic really

[edit on 3-2-2006 by think2much]

[edit on 3-2-2006 by think2much]

None of those reasons is why I loathe the Howard Stern Show. If fine with all that.


What I hate is the fake magpie-laughs. Where they sound like Fran Drescher. All the naked women laugh that way; so does HS's black female sidecick, and the trolls who "help" the women into their microphones.

That stewpid, stoopid laugh is the bane of my existence.

I believe that laugh actively robs the listener of an IQ point every time you hear it, by destroying synapses in the brain. Listening to a topless woman laugh that way is the functional equivalent of sniffing glue.

(Not elmers. The airplane stuff.)

.

Im not sure what the laugh sounds like. But I know about the woman sidekick of which you speak. I ve never been able to stomach the program or see anything of consequence in it long enought to recognize the laugh or marker.

As I understand it the program has been removed from most television and gone on to some kind of sattelite or pay per view format. No problem with me. Never the less it is of the LCD format. It wouldnt bother me if it was removed carte blanche.
It just becomes so obvoius how much these people make merchandize of others and their plight. The difference being that people flock to this format as a sign of excellence...boasting..proud. In the other formats it is textbook Victimization...being exploited. This is the other whoredom of which I posted on No Finance no romance.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft


None of those reasons is why I loathe the Howard Stern Show. If fine with all that. (snip)

That stewpid, stoopid laugh is the bane of my existence.

LOL Doc!

Well, I personally don't watch/listen to the show enough to be bothered by any of it really-though I have seen/heard it before

I just tear apart the premise because my opinon of it was asked by Orangetom, otherwise I couldn't give 2 sheets about him or his show...but it does pertain to how I see men playing out the lowest common denominator mindset as one of the problems of men in society-and the women perpetuating the problem...and all in all that does annoy me in any venue.

I have been musing on your post above to denial.

I tend to agree with the overall premise about the attraction levels ...except that I have been with women who feel they are attractive. I have found most of them overated. Not all mind you but most. What I have also found with many of them is that they are not well integrated into many life skills outside of their attractiveness. This is what makes so many high maintenance.

IT is sad to see so many of these women who have bought into the womens mantras and trying to get another round of life in the fast food lane...before the biology runs out. Seems to me that the latest fad in increasing ones value in the marketplace outside of radical diets(nothing new here) is surgery..plastic surgery. It is becoming so popular that even very young women are doing it...teens even.
Once again ...it is all external improvement ..the inside is still as dull as it ever was.
I am also priveleged to know a couple of women who have played into this mantra big time ...left there men before the biology ran out...got surgery ..several times...sort of in installments...and tried to go back into the marketplace for another round of fast lane living. Neither of them were able to outdo the competiton...for men/providers and are growing olde alone. Their kids are fast lane too...no help there. Somehow ..somewhere they missed the boat..in thier younger days and didnt quite catch on to the real mantra. They bought into counerfits. I feel sort of sorry for both of them but it wont do them any good. The got alot of men to perform for them at different times but not sufficient to keep them into approaching retirement. This is how some women perform for attention or approval.

I was thinking some years back when these nightime soap operas..like Dynasty.or Falconcrest..came about ..the lessons/subliminals underneath in these formats was that you can ...if properly applied..keep this game going well into your 60s and 70s. This even promoted alot of products aimed at older women...or a more mature audience of women.
HOw to keep your value in the marketplace going into olde age..or at least the apperence of value. The internal value is implicit..but market the external value..make this explicit.

I've seen this among guys too..but in a slightly different format. IN performing for attention or approval they often as young men tend to buy a certain kind of car...why??? Because they never saw a ugly woman get out of one.!!! Also known as ...our hero doesnt ride a white horse .anymore..he drives a white porsche. It cracks me up to see guys with more car or stereo than brains. Performing for approval..or increasing his value in the marketplace.

Just some musings on your post to denial.

Thanks olde man,
Orangetom

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I've seen this among guys too..but in a slightly different format. IN performing for attention or approval they often as young men tend to buy a certain kind of car...why??? Because they never saw a ugly woman get out of one.!!! Also known as ...our hero doesnt ride a white horse .anymore..he drives a white porsche. It cracks me up to see guys with more car or stereo than brains. Performing for approval..or increasing his value in the marketplace.

Orangetom

I know good and well that people are tired of constantly reading my references to the book The Millionaire Next Door, but if people read it they would get additional insight into our drives and measures of success.

Basically, the two authors are economists who had been hired by a US bank to try and work up a demographic on millionaires; the bank couldn't seem to attract the rich to their money management services.

Basically, the authors tracked down a bunch of millionaires from bank and tax records, and interviewed them about their backgrounds and spending habits.

Their definition of millionaire is someone whose net worth remains above a million for more than 2 years, I think. Not people who could blow that money, but people who kept it.

Aside from a hundred or so celebrities, what they found was the exact opposite of what you see on MTV, VH1, or E!

The average occupations of millionaires were 1) owner of a janitorial services firm, 2) auctioneer, 3) Welder. Basically occupations where people took something of little or no value, and "fix it" and sell it for a higher price.

The average american millionaire lives in a house valued at under $200,000; doesn't have a swimming pool; drives an american made car that is an average of 8 (!) years old. The person has been married for at least 25 years to the same spouse, has never paid more than $250 dollars for a suit (if he owns one), and has never paid more than $50 dollars for a wristwatch.

Almost none of those surveyed were doctors or lawyers. (I think it was less than one percent.) Turns out that those types are high consumers of wealth, and tend to spend all their earnings on cars, planes and expensive homes.

The book is basically a profile of who REALLY has the money in the US. Despite what TV tells you, there are only a few hundred mega-millionaires in the US. But there are over a million millionaires, valued between 1 and 3 million in net worth.

My point here is, the "hot girls" may be lining up for the dude with the porsche; but the poor girls don't know enough about money to realize that the "stud" who drives it probably is worth less than they are, financially!

What I'm saying is this: You probably don't know enough about real wealth to be able to spot a genuine rich person when you encounter one. Sort of sad, isn't it, to think that most of your images and dreams of riches are the opposite of what it means to have true financial security.

The whole world is chasing after a mirage, and stumbling over the rocks of gold ore at their feet.



.

[edit on 11-2-2006 by dr_strangecraft]

I have not read " The Millionare Nextdoor." Hence I have ordered a copy of it and look foreward to reading it. Very intresting what you post about the economist hired by banking intrests to research this type of profile. This book sounds like it would be a very good study in people hence my intrest in it.

I know both types of peoples described in your post. The very frugal type..frugal to the point where the couples as part of their daily habits share a paper napking by tearing it in half. They have saved and invested their moneys to the point that in retirement they are doing well. The main problem with a number of them is that they seem to be bailing out thier kids and grandkids ...alot. They were unable to pass down these frugal habits to thier offspring leading to the resulting problems I described.

I also know many who are living the VH1/MTV profile in the fast food lane..and bringing along with them the resultant baggage...and passing this along to their kids too. ..with the resultant baggage.

You know ..on the topic of VH1/MTV..I watched this program awhile back about some kind of party going blonde bimbo type ...named...I think...Tara Reed. As I recall it was titled ..Tradise. About 10 minutes or one commercial cycle of this was all I could stand. I suppose I outgrew this type of thinking long ago. It makes me think of that kind of term.."air head" or the cliche about two brain cells running away from each other at light speed.

I took a trip to Las Vegas a couple of years ago...I didn't gamble at all ..not even a one armed bandit. No intrest in it. It is however a place where one can definitely watch wildlife in its natural habitat.
To their credit ..the casinos and nightspots did put on some wonderful buffets and dinner meals. Of these I did partake as well as a couple of shows.
Its just that being bombarded by bright lights, whistles and bells makes me think of walking downt he detergent or toy aisles in the stores. It feels like someone is hustling me. Same thing with car salespeoples.
I suppose alot of people need this kind of thing to call it Life. Not me...I have just observed that alot of it is overdone and wasted on me.

I have to agree..alot of us wouldnt know enough to spot a really rich person ..if they were in front of us.

I know people exactly as you describe..they could afford new cars every couple of years but dont ....they make their cars and trucks last. For some reason they are not intrested in getting on and staying on that kind of treadmill. I salute them for this philosophy in thier lives.

I agree with you about the counterfit images...sold to many people with the resultant effect that they dont often see the Gold rocks in front of thier feet.

Well spoken again..Doc.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Admittedly I'm too drunk to type...yeah not a pretty picture

but I wll say I've read your contributions and that does indeed sound like a good book-intersesting and true...most of the millionaires I know have been either cowboys you'd never suspect...or young guys you'd never know it...little software wizkds....althouth they fit the latter mold...kids who didn't know how to manage their wealth and wore it...splurging it...live "within their means" but consuming their means entirely.... where the cowboys did manage well...dropping $200,000.00 in a blink with a write of the check to buy a home...and this was 15 years ago...

damn...I am sincerely too wasted to type...last night too tired, tonight too wasted...7 years though so cut me some slack...just didn't want you to feel neglacted in this thread....but damn....I should be in bed! See you gentlemen this next week!

[edit on 12-2-2006 by think2much]

Drink a tall glass of water before you go to bed!!!!!!!!

Works like a charm. *wink*