Good remains triumphant over Evil

there is no crime, im not talkin about the justice system, im talkin about some guys kid gets killed by another man and the father goes and kills the guy. theres no evil act just two bad decisions.

but yes the outcome determines if it was a good or bad decisions. if the outcomes gets the person killed, well that wasnt a good decision unless he wanted to die. if an undesired outcome comes from a decision its a bad decision. the good decision when made always overcomes the bad one in the sense its more logical for them to take the right choice a.k.a. the choice that leads them to their desired outcome. you yourself said it cause...and effect. on this world line one event triggers many to come
if we only look at the immediate future our race will eventually end in violent ways.

this is why when some one makes a bad choice its because they got on outcome overall, from everything triggered by their decision, that they didnt want.

[edit on 6-2-2006 by grimreaper797]

Person A kills person B. Person A being the cause, outcome C being the effect. Person A killed person B thinking A was being evil. Observer D witnessed the event, which say... was a fight and not knowing the reason for the fight, saw the event as a self defense event, hence "non evil" act.

Show me where in this example that the actual event itself, the cause and effect itself was evil or good.

You can't. The event itself has no true meaning. It's just an event. How you percieve the event, based upon your personal belief's and view's of the event will determin what the event is. Good or evil.

Just because you percieve something as good or evil doesn't make it good or evil. That's just a by product of your uprbringing and your personal belief's. The event's themselve's hold absolutly no meaning. Again I feel the need to use the example of "cuss" words. The word's themselve's aren't bad, it's societies view's of those words that make them viewed as bad. I could say every cuss word known to man, how you react to those words based upon your belief's pertaining to those words will determine for you what those words are. For me on the other hand, they're just descriptive words for strong emotions. Saying them doesn't harm anyone. No one dies if you cuss, so what's with all the fuss? lol

im not saying good and evil though, not the menacing force of the evil or the greatness of good. im talkin about the good and bad outcomes, which is a good outcome means they got what they hoped for, bad means they didnt. if the farther who killed the murders feels like he got what he wanted reguardless of the side effects the whether or not you morally agree with it for him it was the good choice. thats how it works. i think we agree there is no good or evil but even you said there are good and bad decisions.

What's the difference between good and evil and a good desicion and a bad desicion? I did say there are good and bad choice's to make, that's based upon individual belief's though. It's not based upon any natural law of good/bad choice's. The outcome of killing someone for example, the guy getting revenge or going to jail, doesn't make it good or bad for anyone imparticular, it's just the outcome of a cause and effect event that in reality holds no true meaning of good or bad.

the good or bad decisions i thought you understood depends on what the person desires. thats all. i never said that revenege is the universal good decision...theres no such thing as that. it just that depending on what they want and what they are willing to give for it depends on whether that decision was a good or bad one. it depends on what they want.

Good and evil predate mankind and his ability or lack of ability to understand the two diametrically opposed forces.

The existence of anything doesn't depend on whether one believes it exists or not.

What forces are behind the cause that produces the effect?

How can any human being determine what is good and evil if they cannot even determine what is true?

How can they figure good and evil when they still believe it is necessary to lie to prevent harm from others?

Let the truth burn them, let the truth kill them, let the truth cleanse them. White lies, lies to save a life still are lies... and society is built upon a web of lies. Necessary lies... lies which make you feel better, lies which make you feel good about decisions you make.

You cannot say if there is a good and evil if you do not even know yourself. If you cannot rise beyond animal instinct and become more than human, you will never know truth... you will be ruled by your instinct, by your desires and by your fears.

You fear murder, you fear rape, you fear those harming the ones you love. Your desire is to exact vengeance, to hurt in turn to ease the pain. Some do. Some always do.

Truth people fear. Truth that to murder the murderer, you become him... no matter the case. To punish they who harm you is to become then what you harm. Present your cheek, that I might strike it, then present the other.

Stand to take your punishment, stand in the face of truth and suffer for it. Suffer the truth, and only then will you have somewhere to begin. SUFFER the truth, and you may have found a way to learn.

The world is not pretty, based off of lies as it is. To be a stone that lies may not touch allows you to sink past them, into the underlying realms hidden in the haze. To be untouched by lies of society or lies of the self means to be alone, to be as stone in the great sea... surrounded by vast darkness.

First must you see the darkness, the emptying of self... only then can one walk towards the light.

point,

Where are you getting this whole good and evil predate blah blah idea from? The force's behind a cause and effect event are driven by many thing's. Natural occurance's. Evil doesn't make a storm appear. Good doesn't make a rainbow appear. Those are cause and effect event's. Evil doesn't make a man kill another man. That way of thinking is just calling out a scape goat to blame the cause and effect event that the man brought about. Evil doesn't force a man to pick up a gun, point it at someone and pull the trigger. His emotional response's do. A chemical imbalance inside his brain tha trigger's a strong killing instinct from way back when we were still killing each other out of aggression, territory, and pecking order. A kind of alpha male complex. A natural human response. Not an evil force.

TheCrystalSword,

Your description of truth and lies sound's like good and evil. You make it also sound religous. In fact, religion itself is a lie perpeptuated and continued by man. A white lie to feel better about himself. To give himself a reason to live. I do good, I goto heaven and live an eternal life in bliss. There's no actual evidence of this occuring to the person's who believe this. So why believe it when the truth of reality will set them free? Our animal instinct's are what make's us human. We're still primitive animal's. Painfully obvious by our action's. Not one single human alive is so highly evolved that they can consider themselve's as having to risen above the status of animal's. We're just a more evolved efficient form, intelligent/self aware, tool using animal.

Your description of truth and lies sound's like good and evil. You make it also sound religous. In fact, religion itself is a lie perpeptuated and continued by man. A white lie to feel better about himself. To give himself a reason to live. I do good, I goto heaven and live an eternal life in bliss. There's no actual evidence of this occuring to the person's who believe this. So why believe it when the truth of reality will set them free? Our animal instinct's are what make's us human. We're still primitive animal's. Painfully obvious by our action's. Not one single human alive is so highly evolved that they can consider themselve's as having to risen above the status of animal's. We're just a more evolved efficient form, intelligent/self aware, tool using animal.

Acceptance is not an excuse for behavior. "I cannot help that I am an animal" is unacceptable. You will not become different if you do not strive to be so.

I will repeat again, none of you have any hope of understanding IF there is a good and evil, or even WHAT they are if you cannot be clean of lies. A lie is anything that is false, a lie is anything that is untrue. Ommission is a lie through presenting incomplete evidence. Ommission is a deception, a lie is a deception. Lies to spare people hurt feelings are still lies. Hurt them, they deserve the truth. Who cares if they hate you, and throw stones at you, the truth is greater than to live a lie.

Their hate is because they live in a world of lies, and expect you to PLAY BY THE RULES. They wish you to lie, they wish you to spare their feelings, they wish you to be nice and supplant your personality with what society wishes.

From my experience, most of humanity does not wish to know good and evil, does not wish to know right and wrong, does not wish to know true and false, does not wish to KNOW.

THEY WISH ONLY TO BELIEVE. To humanity, to BELIEVE is to make true, is to make right, is to make good. Believe in religion, believe in self, believe in science... it is all the same, it is the desire for your understanding to be made the TRUTH. It is the desire to be RIGHT without knowing what TRUTH is. It is the desire to be viewed as GOOD without knowing what RIGHT is.

I have sincere doubt that anyone is following this... I have sincere doubt that my own words can really change anything. I will only repeat myself...

You cannot claim a thing without truth, and cannot know the truth without knowing first ones self.

I'm not saying accepting we're driven by animal instinct's is an excuse, but it is the reason. Granted, we could strive to be better then we are, at this point in time, I don't see that happening. Truth isn't good, it's just truth. Lie's aren't evil, they're just lie's. You label them as good and as evil based upon your belief's of what good and evil is, but your good is someone else's evil. Do you have children? Do you lie to them, and tell them about santa, about the easter bunny? Do you celebrate any holiday based upon the belief and observance of these lies or religous belief's? Have you yourself, your family, or your offspring all risen above these lie's to bask in the goodness of truth? Have you become so alien to human society as to think you fully grasp what it is your saying? Do you follow what you say? Have you never, once in your life told a lie, or stopped telling lie's? Sure you could answer yes to that, and I would say your lying.

Originally posted by Produkt
I'm not saying accepting we're driven by animal instinct's is an excuse, but it is the reason. Granted, we could strive to be better then we are, at this point in time, I don't see that happening. Truth isn't good, it's just truth. Lie's aren't evil, they're just lie's. You label them as good and as evil based upon your belief's of what good and evil is, but your good is someone else's evil. Do you have children?

I did not call lies or truth good or evil. Truth is preferred, because it is truth. Lies are not preferred, because they are lies. I would prefer my world to be based off what is REAL than what is NOT. What is TRUE rather than NOT. You cannot EVER understand ANYTHING else if that is not true. You cannot understand good or evil, you cannot understand ANYTHING without the truth. Without knowng the truth of a situation, you cannot make a fair judgment.

Are you arguing with me that you don't NEED the truth in order to understand? Are you arguing with me about this? Are you trying to tell me that the TRUTH is not necessary in order to understand reality, or even, ALL THINGS?

Do you lie to them, and tell them about santa, about the easter bunny? Do you celebrate any holiday based upon the belief and observance of these lies or religous belief's?

I teach them to seek the TRUTH. To accept no less than the TRUTH. To always doubt what one believes, to always be pursuing the TRUTH. To be preferred, to be the unveiling of the universe, to be the unveiling of the self. To Know is to know what is true, though what is true may not be attainable, it is the responsibility of all beings who consider themselves Human. To be a tragedy when truth is not sought. To be sad.

Have you yourself, your family, or your offspring all risen above these lie's to bask in the goodness of truth? Have you become so alien to human society as to think you fully grasp what it is your saying? Do you follow what you say? Have you never, once in your life told a lie, or stopped telling lie's? Sure you could answer yes to that, and I would say your lying.

To be always trying to surpass the lies one tells one self. To be a long and winding road. To be PREFERRED. To be on a mission to make ones self alien to human though, to be wanting to transcend human behavior and become more than just an animal.

I understand what I am saying. I understand what my purpose is... to seek truth, to deny lies. To deny ignorance. To be what I state, to also be in a state of evolution always. To feel that when one ceases changing, one has died.

Do not excuse your lies by turning questions back upon me. Do not forgive your lies, you are only harming yourself. I have only myself to answer to, and only myself to rely upon as I traverse this world. It is my responsibility to try and enrich those around me, to me it means to bring truth... to be a bringer of truth, to be prometheus.

Just because others lie, just because society lies, just because it is what is expected does not make it what should be. Humanity stumbles in the dark, not knowing where the lightswitch is. We touch the elephant, and we declare it satan... no wait, it is GOOD, no wait, it is EVIL, no wait it is RELIGION, SCIENCE, KNOWLEDGE!

Without even a bare naked understanding of terms, we cannot declare terms... but every human being wishes to do so... every human being wishes to think it is right, to think it is ON to something. We are not taught first how to think, we are taught first how to INTEGRATE, what is NEEDED to participate.

We are told what is true, we are given social example of how to behave... we do not discover as a blind and def man would the world. We are given over to what those who inform us think... we develop our thoughts based from those around us. All is false, for it is not the self. The gnosis of self is first and foremost necessary, for only through love of self FIRST can we learn then to love another.

[edit on 2/7/2006 by TheCrystalSword]

I teach them to seek the TRUTH. To accept no less than the TRUTH. To always doubt what one believes, to always be pursuing the TRUTH. To be preferred, to be the unveiling of the universe, to be the unveiling of the self. To Know is to know what is true, though what is true may not be attainable, it is the responsibility of all beings who consider themselves Human. To be a tragedy when truth is not sought. To be sad.

Answer the question. Do you/have you or not told them about santa, easter bunny etc. Observe tradition's and holiday's based upon these falsehoods? Be it religous or not.

Do not excuse your lies by turning questions back upon me. Do not forgive your lies, you are only harming yourself. I have only myself to answer to, and only myself to rely upon as I traverse this world. It is my responsibility to try and enrich those around me, to me it means to bring truth... to be a bringer of truth, to be prometheus.

I'm not making any excuses for any lie's I've made in my life. I also won't deny in riddle that I have lied. You have only yourself to rely upon? What self centered truth is that? We're all integrated with one another. We're all codependant on one another. Your self centered thinking would be the end of family life. I don't rely on my mother, I rely on myself alone. My kids don't rely on me, they rely on themselve's. Whatever the reason for relying on is, care, knowledge, instruction etc. Truth is, you do not rely on just yourself. Stop being so self centered. What your preaching is showing how much your less evolved then most. Self centered thinking isn't evolution. It isn't proper. Your purpose of life is extremly simple, and it isn't one that you think it is. Procreation. The continuance of your genetic line.

Why is it your purpose, responsibilty to spread your idea of truth to everyone? What lead you to believe that was your true purpose in life?

You have only yourself to answer to. Let's do away with the justice system. Let's not force rapist's and killer's to answer to us. Let them answer to themselve's. You really have to get out of this self centered thinking. Your not above anyone. Your not more evolved. Your not better. Realize that truth and your self centered view's will deteriorate.

I have not informed any child I may or may not have of any belief. Celebrating a holiday is not "FALSE", depending on your reasons for celebrating. Should you choose to celebrate, you ultimately have a reason for the choice.

I do not lie knowingly, thusly I am mistaken or misinformed of a thing. Seeking truth of self is a constant process, and I will very likely contradict myself before I am dead... my mind will change, my views will change, my mind will open to new ideas and close to old ideas, perhaps returning to some. This in itself is not lying, this is the process of evolving towards the TRUTH. Discard lies when you find them, do not wrap yourself in the lies.

Define for me:

Good.

Evil.

Love.

You cannot. This means only a few possible things. You don't know what it is being one. There is no such thing being two. There are a few other options.

You cannot claim a thing is untrue based off of lack of agreement on terms. You cannot even make a statement about something unless you can agree upon what a thing is or is not, or even if it exists. You claim there is no good, no evil. Might as well claim there is no such thing as Love, Compassion, Hatred, Sorrow, feelings in general.

Describe for me your feeling. Describe it without using feeling to do so.

If you KNOW that good and evil do not exist, then state it plainly. State the absolute knowledge you have, state that you cannot be wrong, state what you KNOW.

You comment that my thinking is self centered yet I comment that I feel charged to bring the pursuit of truth to others? To bring TRUTH to others? That is self centered how?

How I experience my world is through my senses, through my awareness and sensations. Only this can I rely upon, only my own thoughts can discern my reality. That is true for every living thing, that is not self centered. That is truth. One cannot ever know another thing if you cannot first hope to know yourself.

If you cannot know yourself, you are hopeless and every word you speak is ignorance of the world. No matter how wise a fool you are, you are still a fool who knows nothing if you do not know yourself. To thine own self be TRUE, for without truth unto yourself, everything you experience is now colored by whatever lies you have deceived yourself with.

As for criminals... sure, do away with the legal system. Let us kill all the lawyers first though.

All people answer only to themselves in the end. They suffer their choices, they suffer their consequences from their own actions, from what they do they do to themselves. Your actions do not cause me to suffer if we do not know eachother. If you kill someone and I am sleeping, that does not make me guilty of your crime. I am guilty of only what I do, and have only myself to answer to. Whether I run afoul of the law, that again is due to my choices... that again is my responsibility to myself, not to others.

I will ask you again to define these things...

Good. Evil. Love. Hate. Compassion. Sorrow.

Good and evil don't naturally exist. There is no law of nature creating good nor evil. Good and evil exist for the same reason cuss words are bad. Society itself make's it so. I view cuss words as niether good, nor bad. They are words, descriptive words for strong emotion's. Just because I cuss doesn't make me bad nor evil. It just mean's I chose to make use of our language.

Love, can you even define that in the way your thinking? Love is a chemical reaction in our brain's. As are all emotion's. Sure, it may seem wierd thinking of it as such, but it's the truth. This doesn't mean the feeling's/emotion's themselve's don't exist. They still do. They exist as a chemical reaction within our brain's brought about by whatever influence occured at the time. Someone hit's you, nueron's inside your head fire off telling other part's of your body to produce a certain chemical reaction that produce's the needed control reaction to deal with being hit. Be it fear, anger, crying.

Cold. I know. But as you said, that's how the truth is.

I have not informed any child I may or may not have of any belief. Celebrating a holiday is not "FALSE", depending on your reasons for celebrating. Should you choose to celebrate, you ultimately have a reason for the choice.

If you do have or will have kids, will you or will you not tell them about santa. Will you or will you not observe tradition's based upon lie's created by society. By how you speak of how you view truth and such, then by your own definition you would not tell your children nor allow the observation of certain holidays that are based upon lie's. By your own definition, you would be no better then anyone else. Thus making your whole argument seem utterly ridiculous.

So please, answer the question truthfully, without riddle, and bluntly. Yes or no. I don't see why your evading it in riddle. Are you trying to hide something?

You'd first have to ask me if I believe in an easter bunny or santa claus.

I'd like to hear you say it: I'd like to hear you say.... "I know for a fact, and there is no possible way I could ever be wrong in any imaginable fashion, that Good and Evil do not exist."

Also...

"I know for a fact that emotion is nothing more than chemical processes occurring in my brain, and there isn't any evidence which could dissuade me, because I KNOW this to be true."

Say it.

Go ahead.

Wow. Reading most of these posts, I see the War on Ignorance is waging like the War on Drugs...

Most people don't even have any idea how the universe is ran, so how can they even begin to comment on what they need to do? This is where some know-nothing starts blubbering "because blah blah blah" when all they're doing is recycling the crap they learned at church or thought up while eating a bag of cheetos. Some men spend their entire lives contemplating this stuff, and never find the answer, and yet you're supposed to be better than them?

But what these men lacked was a complete understanding of our history. In order for us to know what we need to do with our lives, I think we need to know what was really going on in our world, and not what someone wants us to know. A complete, true history; not one that has been twisted and distorted by leaders and men. You can take pieces gathered from here and there, and it will paint a picture...

It's funny how you continue to avoid a simple yes or no question.

Your belief of an easter bunny or a santa or of any other false belief would imprint upon your children. You would naturally imprint those belief's onto your children. My prior knowledge of what you belive will have no impact upon what you teach your children to believe. What your willing to tell your children is of you and you alone, not of my prior knowledge of your belief's. So, again. Yes or no

And yes, I will rightly and justly say there is no true natural law of good or evil. I will rightly state it's based upon personal belief's and society belief's. I will also admit emotion' are chemical in nature, brought about by natural processes within your brain's. We already know alot about the pleasure center. When excited by electrical current's, it produce's a chemical that make's us "feel" good. This is a proven, scientific and repeatable fact.

Now... Yes or No.

Originally posted by bigpappadiaz
Some men spend their entire lives contemplating this stuff, and never find the answer, and yet you're supposed to be better than them?

Better than them? No. Just as good, why? Because I am trying to be. When it comes to philosophy, it is the effort one puts into it. I couldn't very well claim to be better than Socrates, Plato, Nietszche, Heidegger, Hume, Hegel. How would you define better? I don't think a lot of these blokes got special medals from the Almighty saying "Congratulations, you figured it out", so in what way would I rate myself?

But what these men lacked was a complete understanding of our history. In order for us to know what we need to do with our lives, I think we need to know what was really going on in our world, and not what someone wants us to know. A complete, true history; not one that has been twisted and distorted by leaders and men. You can take pieces gathered from here and there, and it will paint a picture...

All of the comments I have made are arguing exactly that... the ignorance of man, and also the arrogance.

Originally posted by TheCrystalSword
All of the comments I have made are arguing exactly that... the ignorance of man, and also the arrogance.

The same ignorance and aragoance your showing in your post's on this thread. Ignorance of the fact's. Arogance brought about by your ignorance in thinking that those fact's are untrue.