Good remains triumphant over Evil

bigpappadiaz,

With your permission, seeing as how you came back to the thread, I would like to post the little U2U discussion between us. Or perhaps you would like to reply to my last U2U here in the thread?

Took awhile, but as the article says, oobe research is rare. Remind you this is but an exerpt of a more detailed article explaining oobe's.

brain.oxfordjournals.org...

We suggest that OBE and AS are related to a failure to integrate proprioceptive, tactile and visual information with respect to one’s own body (disintegration in personal space) and by a vestibular dysfunction leading to an additional disintegration between personal (vestibular) space and extrapersonal (visual) space. We argue that both disintegrations (personal; personal–extrapersonal) are necessary for the occurrence of OBE and AS, and that they are due to a paroxysmal cerebral dysfunction of the TPJ in a state of partially and briefly impaired consciousness.

www.thelatestmagazine.com...

www.karinya.com...

external source

During his career, Dr. MuShik Jhon has received upwards of 30 honors and awards, including the Grand Science Award and the Presidential Award of Science (the highest scientific award in Korea).

ok so theres a bit of scientific info, now you shar a couple of your links which prove your side of what your saying. make sure its from credible scientists, not some retired guy who thinks its baloney and claims to be a chemist yet never gives his name or crediticials.

The first link isn't scientific nor list's any scientifly verifiable results regarding this magical water. It's a new age web zine. The other website is an advertisment for his book. So now you've shown me two examples of this guy selling a book and bottled water, and neither example has shown any scientific results for it's benefits, if any.

I did a search on google scholar, trying to look up any paper's he's written. I've found one so far, yet it might not even be him for sure. Either way, it doesn't discuss magical healing benefit's of his water.

pubs.acs.org...

And as I noted earlier, I cannot for the life of me find any scientific mention of hexagonal water. The results on google scholar turn up exactly zero hits. Which leads me to conclude there is no scientific backing supporting hexagonal water. While doing a regular normal google search, the only and I mean only mention of hexagonal water and it's benefit's come's from new age website's selling the same product your guy is selling, bottled water and books.

As I said, I may be stupid, but I'm not gullible.

ok fine, more scientific for you then

links.jstor.org...

this is the exact paper which they refer to hexagon. if you read closely you will see it, it doesnt come straight out and call it hexagonal. it does talk about the location of the 6 hydrogen atoms.

www.lsbu.ac.uk...

if you want to get really into the science look at this, but i doubt that youll be able to understand it much. in the ionization of water, its possible to have a hexagonal structure of water. im sure you know what an ion is so i wont even bother to go into that.

EDIT: after finding numerous articles i can only access if i pay for them, ive decided that its going to be alot harder to find good sources. ill keep looking



[edit on 9-2-2006 by grimreaper797]

There's nothing in that paper, as you said, stating anything about hexagonal water. Nor is it discussing the scientific evidence for the benefit's of so called hexagonal water, or whichever name you'd like to give it. I had come accross that in my search's, but I felt it held absolutly no relevance to the type of water your describing and that website selling the books and water. This paper doesn't even remotely brush up on the so called miraculous benefits of such water. Not even a tiny hint, scientific or not.

[EDIT] links.jstor.org...

I can understand where the concept of hexagonal water is comming from now after, as you suggested, taking a closer look.

"there are six ways of which two of the four neighboring hydrogen atoms in ice 1 arc belong to the central oxygen atom..."

I fear your not understanding what this means. This paper is about ICE CRYSTALS, not individual water molecules. A water molecule consists of two oxygen and one hydrogen atoms. While I dont understand the mechanics behind ICE CRYSTALS, as this particular peice is evidently discussing, you can also note that it in no way discussing miraculous benefits for humans of even the ice crystal itself.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by Produkt]

Firstly, the understanding of Kirlian Photography that is presented is bad science and I will tell you why... it only describes how they DISproved it, in very specific circumstances. There are other forms of Kirlian Photography which do not use the same techniques, and aural photography doesn't necessarily rely upon the Kirlian technique.

When science actively seeks to DISPROVE something, rather than test the validity of it, it has an agenda... and agenda's often mean lies and obfuscation.

Secondly... the same problem with your OOBE phenomenon. I said NDE... and there is a field of NDE studies that specifically covers total brain death. Meaning that the brain is not FUNCTIONING at the time some people claim to be having the experience. No neurons firing, etc.

Not every situation fits neatly and consicely into a little square hole.

As for the weight differential in post-death... there was a study done in the last few years which weighed people as they were dying and found there to be a weight difference. Now, If I was doing a study, I would actually account for an error ratio which would entail such escaping of gasses and such... whether the study mentioned does that or not I am uncertain.

Firstly, the understanding of Kirlian Photography that is presented is bad science and I will tell you why... it only describes how they DISproved it, in very specific circumstances. There are other forms of Kirlian Photography which do not use the same techniques, and aural photography doesn't necessarily rely upon the Kirlian technique.

When science actively seeks to DISPROVE something, rather than test the validity of it, it has an agenda... and agenda's often mean lies and obfuscation.

They weren't activley trying to disprove it, they were showing how it works, atleast under those circumstances. And under those conditions it has been proven that it's not photographing an aura. I've never heard of any other method's of kirlian photography, so if you could kindly name them, or direct me to a few links I'd be more then happy to research them as I did with that one form of kirlian photography.

Secondly... the same problem with your OOBE phenomenon. I said NDE... and there is a field of NDE studies that specifically covers total brain death. Meaning that the brain is not FUNCTIONING at the time some people claim to be having the experience. No neurons firing, etc.

Honestly, I've never heard nor come across any scientific study of total death NDE's. But EEG does have it's limitations.

en.wikipedia.org...

Instead, the EEG picks up synchronization of neurons, which produces a greater voltage than the firing of an individual neuron.

Now my take on that, in regards to total death NDE and in light of the NDE research I linked too, I would surmise that as the brain loses it's electric charge, at a certain level the EEG machine would be unable to pick up the electrical signal as it requires a certain amount of voltage to be detected. So far this is my understanding as described in the article. For instance, the heart may no longer be beating, pumping the needed oxygen through the body for the individual cells to turn into energy in order to function, those cells wouldn't be dead that very second. Brain dead is just the inability to measure the electric voltage comming from the brain, and as duly noted, EEG has it's limitations in that measurment. Now under those circumstances noted in the other article concerning NDE's of non dead indiduals, it's not entirely impposible that, in the last death throw's of our cells making use of the little energy it has left, it could still lead to the same conditions for an NDE experience. You also have to take into account that not every individual experiences NDEs, and as the article stated, there's a reason for that. Those same condition's for NDE's may not exist upon death for those that do experience NDE's and the NDE's of the living are documented reasons in that article.

Atleast this is from what I can gather with the provided information. I could be wrong however, but it does seem like a probable reason given the evidence. I'll definatly look into scientific studies concerning total death NDE's and check my hypothesis against the tested result's.

As for the weight differential in post-death... there was a study done in the last few years which weighed people as they were dying and found there to be a weight difference. Now, If I was doing a study, I would actually account for an error ratio which would entail such escaping of gasses and such... whether the study mentioned does that or not I am uncertain.

As for this, I'm unsure of. I've never heard of such a scientific experiment before, let alone one that would take into account a myraid of possible variables that could naturally explain a wieght reduction. Could you please post any links you may have regarding the scientific verification of this effect?

[EDIT] I did find another interesting article on NDE's, but you need to purchase it for $30.

www.springerlink.com...(5salw4551ljsg0bk4may0h45)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,2,8;journal,11,47;linkingpublicationresu lts,1:105586,1

Abstract This paper attempts to show that the sequence of a typical near death experience (NDE) is predictable and reproducible, enough to suggest that the NDE is a symptom of a specific altered mental state seen in a large number of medical and surgical conditions. I attempt to explain on an anatomical, physiologic, and psychological basis how NDEs might be caused, and suggest that NDEs might even be the basis of religion.
I also describe an NDE of a 38-year-old insulin-dependent diabetic who developed hypoglycemia secondary to a lack of caloric intake to support her daily insulin usage. She did not appear to be life-threatened from a cardiovascular standpoint. During the hypoglycemic spell, the patient appeared to be in rapid eye movement (REM) sleep. Following resuscitation with an intravenous injection of dextrose, the patient returned to a normal mental status, but recounted a typical NDE.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by Produkt]

I will try and track down the studies mentioned.

As a complete aside, What exactly does Remote viewing mean? If you are able to see five rooms down, or halfway across the world and describe things with accurate precision... does that not mean that the human existence extends far beyond the body? By definition, in order to observe and view remotely you must in some way leave the locality of your body, or bring the locality you are viewing to yourself.

I would argue remote viewing is supportive of there being an element of the human existence aside from the physical.

ive updated my links
this new link will show you what i mean even better. ionized water. the article, if you can understand it, should help. i will not lie, i struggled on many part and some parts i still am trying to figure out what they are talkin about. it is very complex so thats why its taking me so long, because im trying to understand it before posting it.

i think that scientifically charges of these ions cause clusters to form of ionized water and regular water. or in a sense, hexgonal water molecules.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by grimreaper797]

I think the problem with remote viewing is the same for other supernatural events such as telekinesis. Under labratory conditions those performing these act's have either failed to perform as claimed, or were proved hoax's. As for any valid cases of actual, succesful and repeatable event's, I've never heard of any.

on the remote viewing note, most are hoaxed, the ones that arent are top secret because the government was in control of these experiements. russians also experiemented with it, both might still.

one way to test the freedom and information act lol

edit: AHAHAHAHA i found it extremely funny that during me postin about water and such that a polland springs ad was up on ATS

[edit on 9-2-2006 by grimreaper797]

www.lsbu.ac.uk...

this will help you out alot with the chemical properties of water and everything. your right the one document was hexagonal ice, different then ionized water.

www.lsbu.ac.uk...

Processed water with health claims

There is an increasing market in bottled water and domestic water processing equipment claiming that the water has considerable health benefits varying from more rapid hydration to cures for AIDS and cancer. Generally there are no proper scientific trials to prove these claims, only isolated testimonial evidence. Oxygenated drinks have been proposed to improve the immune status. However, a randomized blinded clinical study [968], although showing a transient moderate increase in oxygen radicals (using 6 mM O2) and signs of activation of the immune response, was not conclusive.

One factor often used to promote these ‘health’ waters is supposed greater cellular hydration or ease of hydration. It is unclear whether increased cell hydration is actually health-promoting. A recent paper has argued that this may be a determining factor in the initiation of cancer [969]. It has been found that cancer cells do have greater water with increased fluidity but the cause and effect relationship (i.e. whether increased cellular hydration initiates cancer or cancer initiates high cellular hydration) has not yet been established.

Yes, this website is very informative about water and it also helped prove my case of the gullibility factor concerning the so called benefit's from that guy's water. Or any other such claim for that matter. As it stand's, none of the article's you've shown me from that site actually claim any special health benefit's of ionized water over ordinary water, and the site itself also show's how such claims are unproven.

But onto remote viewing. That's a weak argument. The only way this could be proven is if the government got ahold of all succesfull remote viewer's from the moment they start talking about having the ability to do so, thus leaving the scientist's with those that claim, but can't reproduce the event under controlled conditions and those who hoax remot viewing. Extremely weak argument.

[EDIT]

In the light of the increased promotion of 'special' water preparations, it is important to take notice that there are definite and proven health benefits from simply drinking more water and from changing fluid intakes from coffee, tea, alcohol, and hypertonic soft drinks to mineral or tap water [413]. That cup of coffee first thing in the morning is best, perhaps, replaced by a glass of water in order to reduce the higher risk of heart attacks at this time of day.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by Produkt]

like i said product, im not saying yet that its beneficial to us, im taking it step by step.

first showing you that this ionized water can indeed exist. i figured before i moved ov further then that id let you read that to make sure your still on base with me as far as the point we are at in this conversation.

EDIT: i will agree its extremely hard to find real info about this stuff merely because these stupid products flood google with top search results, leaving actual info very hard to find. i will agree there that some of these are money makers but i dont believe that just because there are people out there exploiting this that there isnt the chance it could be.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by grimreaper797]

Why do you think I stated I may be stupid, but I'm not gullible? The article does discuss ionized water, yes, I agree with the notion. It's well written and not entirely that hard to understand. What's happening in your situation is your fallen into the gullibility trap that these new agers setup to part you from your money.

You hand me a site that you claim would show to me how this "special" water with amazing qualities is a proven scientific fact. Yet, that same site niether discusses such properties, but it also give's CAUTION to such claims. As there is absolutley no proven evidence that these so called "special" water's have any of the qualities claimed of them. All these stupid product's all over google are the only thing that there is of this so called "special" water. The so called scientist selling his version of water uses information and theories most laymen wouldn't even grasp from the get go, as you've already pointed out that your trying to understand the basic concepts in those site's you've shown me.

I don't mean to be rude or insulting, but you have fallen for a scam. You've become gullible into so strongly believing that this guy was right, and this is exactly what that guy was hoping for! If you actually bought any of that water or his book, then I sorely feel sorry for you.

alright what the source website says is its basically inconclusive, they cant prove that this type of water is positive or negative. the study of water is severly underminded and not enough research is done to find out if its positive, negative, or if there are any effects at all. i guess right now, chemically its not know what effects ionized water really has.

emotos claims of ionized water i believe are false, but the structure of water especially in ice and freezing water (which is what his experiments did consist of if you remember) i do believe have some fact behind them. he took pictures of water freezing, which does have structure to it. whether or not it benefits i dont think was ever my point in the first place, merely that the structure was reacting to vibrations around it.

edit:
point blank: i think emoto did go about it scientifically, but once he got the results he saw profit and took it. i didnt really ever believe if it was or wasnt beneficial, just that it responded in a sense, which was why i linked to that site. most of my discussion was to show structured water could exist, and structured ice and freezing water pretty much does. that emotos photographs merely showed this, he exploited it with greed though.

i also believe there is a 'chance' there could be benefits, but i dont believe in the scam he created because he saw the oppertunity. i used his site mainly to show the structure in ice and freezing water, then the different structures it took based upon what type of vibrations there were.
should the studies be found false, then yes i would again wait to see more evidence. but until then i dont see why i shouldnt see it as a scientist who was doing an experiment, got the results, then later saw a money making scheme.

also one other thing, the water wasnt special nor did i ever say it was, i merely stated water could take different structural forms. further more i dont believe i garenteed that this water would make you healthier because in reality i didnt believe it was fact either. i did believe it could be possible, but i didnt believe that the fact water could take structure directly connects to a positive effect on our bodies.

because lack of proof i also dont put full faith in his claims, but since theres such a lack in experiments and studies of water, i wont dismiss it either.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by grimreaper797]

Grim,

Have you ever taken a look at a snowflake? Ice crystal's obviously have structure as he showed in the picture's. He take's this one step furthur to claim his discovery leads to health benefits. Beside's all that mumbo jumbo, there is actually a scientific field devoted to studying the ice crystal form.

www.viewsfromscience.com...
whyfiles.org...
ams.allenpress.com...(1997)036%3C0070:NCOTIC%3E2.0.CO%3B2

also one other thing, the water wasnt special nor did i ever say it was, i merely stated water could take different structural forms. further more i dont believe i garenteed that this water would make you healthier because in reality i didnt believe it was fact either. i did believe it could be possible, but i didnt believe that the fact water could take structure directly connects to a positive effect on our bodies.

Could you please then explain what your point was in bringing this all up? I agree, there is such a thing as ionized water, and that ice crystal can be of many shapes, but what is your point? I seemed to have missed it when you showed me website's proclaiming to have magical water.

yes if like to say that the reason i did such websites is i wasnt devoting time to really search, i just took a couple links that had info on it about structure in water and ice and such. i shouldnt have done that so my bad.

also its not ionized water, chem teacher even said that there isnt such a thing. there are such things as water clusters and hydronium ions (which is basically water attracting a hydrogen atom because of oxygens negative charge on the opposite side of hydrogen bonds.

edit: o and also the point. it was first to show you that water has structure and the possibility of vibrations a.k.a. energy, causing different structures depending on the type of vibration. second was to show you the possibility that certian types of vibrations may have a connection with organization in structures, which in a sense cause different patterns.

[edit on 10-2-2006 by grimreaper797]

edit: o and also the point. it was first to show you that water has structure and the possibility of vibrations a.k.a. energy, causing different structures depending on the type of vibration. second was to show you the possibility that certian types of vibrations may have a connection with organization in structures, which in a sense cause different patterns.

Excellent! Your learning, or trying to teach me about physics and how, when atoms in contact or in close range exert a force upon other atoms. I've already known about this, it's basic physics. Yet I still fail to see your point in what this has to do with what we were discussing previously.