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Originally posted by Produkt
It's funny how you continue to avoid a simple yes or no question.
Your belief of an easter bunny or a santa or of any other false belief would imprint upon your children. You would naturally imprint those belief's onto your children. My prior knowledge of what you belive will have no impact upon what you teach your children to believe. What your willing to tell your children is of you and you alone, not of my prior knowledge of your belief's. So, again. Yes or no
And yes, I will rightly and justly say there is no true natural law of good or evil. I will rightly state it's based upon personal belief's and society belief's. I will also admit emotion' are chemical in nature, brought about by natural processes within your brain's. We already know alot about the pleasure center. When excited by electrical current's, it produce's a chemical that make's us "feel" good. This is a proven, scientific and repeatable fact.
Originally posted by Produkt
The same ignorance and aragoance your showing in your post's on this thread. Ignorance of the fact's. Arogance brought about by your ignorance in thinking that those fact's are untrue.
It is funny how utterly irrelevant that is.
I will let my children discern for themselves what they believe, and then I will try and tear it down. That doesn't involve me lying.
So, tell me how this came to BE.
So, as a person of "truth" you would allow your children to believe in a falsehood. Later to tear down their belief's that made them happy. When would you tear down this belief of say, santa. How would they learn of santa from an early age, prior to any other influence's but your's? Would you allow them to watch the lie's spread on television of santa, let them develope the belief of santa, then destroy that beleif as the bringer of truth?
Appearently your not understanding how science works. We don't know as of yet HOW it came to be, but we do know that this is HOW it works.
You can deny the fact
that certain chemical's produced within the brain bring about emotional response's all you want. Your failure to accept certain truth's/fact's has no impact upon them.
Your failure to accept the reproducable experiment's that lead to our knowledge of these fact's, or your failure to test these reproducable experiment's would just negate any argument of you having the purpose of teaching the truth. There's your ignorance, and there's your arrogance.
No, I haven't tested the experiment's themselve's. I do however trust
the experiment's that have been done, that have led to product's that change the chemical's within the brain of it's user. It's already been shown, reproducibly, experimentally, and put into practice through medication's that emotion's are checmical in nature.
Sadness and depression, emotion's that are "treatable" by other chemical's (medications). They're being used everyday, with proven effect's. You ignorance of denying this fact is leading to your arrogance of preaching what your preaching.
I said try and tear it down. All beliefs are either torn down or they stand the weather. You should always tear down beliefs **IF YOU CAN**.
That is my point, you don't know how it came to be. On top of that, regardless of what you say, you also don't know how it works. You only know a model of how it could work, which bears the brunt of examination and repeatable testing. This does not make it true, it only makes it likely to be true.
You haven't given me truth or facts, only evidence of one particular ideology, worshipper of Science.
If Science had all the answers, there would be no more need for it, would there... Worshipper of Science?
science is a tool, that we are unable to use correctly yet because we dont know who we are.
reason being we will be able to see whats worth pursuing and what isnt, further more discover why it is or isnt. we will be able to do this because we will find out what it is we want and why we want it. we may say i want money, but then we think why we want it and say "to have lots of stuff" again ask why? answering that you say "so i can use it" but then i ask why would you want to use it? what connection are you making with these items?
when they figure out that these items are nothing more then time consumers unless you are experiencing it and connecting with some one else, then knowledge will progress. we are all connected, as one entity, energy. all things will root down to this energy. we are one divided into pieces waiting to become whole again. we are a form of energy, and we must all connect if we wish to further understand ourselves and the places we live in, and all that is around us.
Originally posted by Produkt
How are we to discover who we are, if we don't use science? If science is the tool to discover who we are, then our improper usuage of science brought about by our lack of knowing who we are, would "dirty" anything we learn about ourselve's and world. Everything we would learn as a result would inherently, be wrong. This isn't the case. Yes, science is a tool of learning. The horrible cold truth is, the universe has no feeling's. It doesn't care if you know squat about yourself. It will keep ticking away in the same manner it has for billion's of year's now. Your lack nor anyone's lack of understanding fully who they are, isn't going to rewrite physic's. What we discover, through science (the tool), has alway's been there and will alway's be there. Thing's don't become mysteriously understandable just because you start to understand yourself. They become understandable, because we learned about it. We used our science, tested our theories, experimented.
Interesting. Yet ignorant. Greed, territory, self indulgence and a vast amount of other emotion's and instict's are at play here. To answer the last question, use it for entertainment. But then you could go furthur, why do you want entertainment. It make's me happy. Why does it make you happy. etc etc etc. You could go on almost forever with that statement. Just because human's are capable of voicing want's or need's doesn't mean they need to question why to discover more about who they are. If anything, doing the same method of questioning would lead to desicion's that never get made. I am hungry. Why am I hungry. What brought about this hunger. Simple answer to both situation's.
Have you yet firgured out that the computer/internet are nothing more then time consumer's? Has your knowledge of anything else progressed much after you figured this out? The sad truth is, we're not all interconnect being's made of energy. That's akin to religous belief's in an attempt to explain the thing's we don't understand about our universe. Why are we here. What happen's when we die. What is conciousness. Why do I think. Complex questions that religion give's extremly basic, simple answer's for. You calim we're all energy based being's interconnected as such and untill we understand that. not much progress will ever be made. Where's your evidence for this? If anything, it's painfully obvious what we're made up of and what we're not. If you can't see that, then well ...
We know very little about ourselve's. We're still debating how DNA, the very thing that create's us, came about. We're still trying to understand the complex chemical reaction's within our bodies that produce emotion's. We're still trying to understand why we still have many basic animal instinct's when we're supposedly more highly evolved then other species. There is no spirit. There's nothing to even indicate anything of the sort. There's no magical plane of concious existence. Your brain is nothing more than an extremely advance computer, with an operating system that evolved to such a high order that it lead to intelligence. It won't be long before computer's we use today evolve true intelligence. They then will be asking themselves the same question's perhaps. Will computer's one day start believing they have a soul and if the energy that power's them ceases to do so, they magically be transfered to the great MMORPG in the sky?
our lack of understanding doesnt change physics but does change how we use it and how effectively we use it. our mind function and the findings of science are connected ina physical sense, but because i understand how i work and why i no longer encounter any social problems, for i know before i even act all the possibilities of my actions. i know these because i know who i am and how i will react. this allows me to make the best possible choice. its not about how our minds will change science, but how our minds will change the way we USE science.
why does it make you happy? if you could answer that maybe it would end there, but in truth i doubt you could because your making no real connection with anyone. you merely spark a chemical reaction that causes you to say i like this, but your not thinking or exploring.
we should be exploring science, no watchin tv. but before any of us can explore science we must explore our own state of minds and train of thoughts.
your trying to physically understand why you exist, which i always wonder why people put so much emphasis on since it wont change a thing as far as your goals. who you are and why you exist are two totally different things. who you are and what you want is determind by what your thinking, your thought process. DNA wont tell you what you want, just your biological code and why you do some actions. yet you dont need DNA to tell you any of that because when you actually think you already know these things, you just dont have your eyes open, even to yourself.
Produkt: Everything you have stated and tried to convince me of are your beliefs. You don't even accept the possibility that you are wrong.
nothing you have learned means anything to me
Or, perhaps an even worse scenario is that at some point all the things Science relies upon to be repeatable suddenly STOP being so. What if that were to happen?
If you do not know who you are, why you are, what you are.... for YOURSELF, outside of science and religion... then why do you even have the right to tell people how the universe functions? Why do you have the right to tell people what the truth is when you could be wrong about EVERYTHING?
Lol, I'm not sure. Although I've never heard a theory where the law's of physic's could suddenly stop existing or such. However I have heard some pretty convincing theories that the law's of physics could be different then they are here in our part of the universe compared to other part's.
Originally posted by Produkt
In what manner do you mean, know ourselve's? Physically, psychologicaly, spiritually? Psychologicaly, I could sort of understand what your saying. Spiritually, forget it. There's no such thing as a spirit or a soul. When I speak of physically knowing ourselve's, such as the chemical nature of our emotion's and such, this is how I view life. This is what life is. Complex orginization of chemical interaction's. Doesn't mean we're pointless or unspecial. We don't need a spiritual influence to understand the complexity of it. The psychological aspect, is more akin to philosophical. While philosophy can be a great tool for exercising the brain, it doesn't nessecarily lead to a greater understanding of one's self. Philosophical question's could lead to scientific theories. In the end, the "practice" of science, of testing your theories against reality will ultimatly teach you what is real.
I can understand where your comming from. However, our lack of understanding ourselve's doesn't nesecarily impact how we can use science as a tool to understand the other complexities of the universe. On a psychological level, not many people do understand anything about themselve's, this has no impact upon what they learn about other subject's. As you stated, science is a tool for learning. A hammer is a tool for building. How is it that we need to understand ourselve's in order to use one tool, but not the other? The ability to learn come's naturally. Not just within the human species, but all species, no matter how lowly they might be in our eyes. Everything has the capacity to learn. Most species probably lack the understanding of themselve's, this however doesn't impede their learning. As you stated also, your having less social problem's, this stem's from a broader sense of psychology most people don't posses. You know how you'll react based upon a psychological instinct. But do you know the chemical change's within your brain that lead to that reaction.
In a way, yes I do know. You actually answered it for me. A chemical reaction, and to furthur elaborate, this chemical reaction is brought about by latent animal instinct's from prior evolutionary form's that have changed and mutated over the course of billion's of year's. Evolution is a natural occurance. Slow, yes, unobservable in the blink of an eye. You may not "see" evolution occur on a macro scale, but the gradual evolution over time can be charted back through history, and if given the patience and effort, forward through history.
There are reason's why not everyone studies science or explore's the psychological level's of the mind or philisophical reason's. It's not a natural instinct to explore the meaning of the universe, or to develop theories of the mind. There's alot man doesn't yet know about our species. How did we come to think the way we do, to be as self aware, to develop technology we take for granted today. Alot of unanswered question's we're working on right now. We're stil however stuck with the basic animal instict's. How is living in peace the ultimate goal? How do you know what the ultimate goal is. Hell, how do you even know there is an ultimate goal. What defined that ultimate goal for you to achieve. There is no ultimate goal. There is no higher purpose. Your nothing more then a complex machine performing complex calculation's. A computer. A biological robot. Born of natural mean's, that ultimatley had no higher purpose, no ultimate goal, and no life of itself.
I have heard of the string theory. I realize we could be made up of vibrating strand's of energy. Those strand's of energy make up the quarks and such, those in turn make up the atom's, those in turn ect. They aren't all interconected on some higher plane of ultimate conciousness. They have no purpose. It has no life. How are we all interconnected by a force that has no life of it's own? Viruses are very primitive orginism's. Possibly one of the first complicate set of chemical reaction's to occur. They don't purposfully, with intent harm you. It's just a chemical interaction within our bodies. The individual cell's that make your body up hold no life by themselve's. They're chemical reactions that require other checmical reaction' to function. Science in a way has already shown how we think. The problem I think, is, why do we think, which is more philosophical then anything. One that doesn't hold any real answer. Why do we do anything? Some of us are having trouble accepting the fact that we're nothing more then a complex machine driven by chemical reaction's. The reason for why we do thing's is from billion's of year's of evolving chemical reaction's.
Yes, I am trying to physically understand why I exist. I'm a physical being, so why wouldn't I? Who I am, and why I exist are closely tied together. The physical aspect's of my genetics will determine the initial onset's of my disposition and attitude and instinctual response's. Enviromental/social influence's will determine the rest. All these physical interaction's make you who you are. there's nothing divine or special about it. There's nothing philosophical about it.
As for everyone being wrong, THEY ARE. You can never be right, you can only have an idea. Belief makes you THINK you have found the answer
People who think they are "RIGHT" or think that all the "Rightness" of science backs them up need to realize that, however sound the theory (And it's important to accept it on the face of a thing), it could be COMPLETELY WRONG.
physically its obvious how we are connected, mentally its not as easy to see, and spiritually is just faith that it exists and nothing more. we are all made of the same thing, energy. so in that sense we are connected. you have no individuality other then the physical form you take. physically we are connected because there is a physical connection as far as what we are all made of goes. you eat and apple, that apple is now a part of you. when you die maybe in 10 years you are part of some trees, grass, and other plants, or more importantly other people. we never really die, we just transform again and again. what we experience cannot be explained yet, in time it will.
physcologically is the most complex of them all though. the connection is that which i cannot fully describe to you, if youve ever truely loved a person with all your heart, i dont mean sexually, but actually loved them your making a connection. the chemical is how you know your making this connection with the other person, its alerting you that your making this type of connection. this connection, comparible to love, is a glimpse of the connection that the entire human race will eventually reach if it doesnt wipe itself out first. this undying respect that words cannot describe.
on the contrary, our lack of understanding greatly effects our use of this tool. reason being what i said about the good and bad choice. the good and bad choice is the desired or undesired outcome. because of our lack of understanding we are heading toward a definate undesired choice, which is the total destruction of our race. unless some lost soul wants that then we agree that we dont want the human race wiped out. your right it doesnt have an impact on what they learn, but i never said it did. ive been saying this entire time its how they USE what they learned that is the problem, the ignorance. nuclear energy is a good example because the undesired outweighs the desired outcomes of this energy. yet we continue to use it more and more because our lack of understanding about anything, and we cant understand anything till we know who we are. this is because we cant understand ourselves mentally, and thats square one.
there chemical reactions are response triggers for your mind to whats going on. whats the point of having money and blowing it on jewelry and cars if you never learn anything from it, why would that make you happy and have this response is what i want to know? i dont see any reasonable answer.
dont give me that, we are capable of whatever we want so long as we want it enough. peace is the goal because peace is being able to live. if you live in conflict your not really living. i know personally there is no such thing as a progressive life when your constantly in conflict. there is no higher purpose because there is no purpose to begin with. we are here by our own terms, that it. i may be nothing more then that, but i do still experience, and that is enough for me. your purpose is to do whatever pleases you the most. unfortunately most people dont understand what it is that pleases them because they cant see past the lies of materialism and lack of thought.
a connection doesnt have to be made by something living, it had no thought or purpose, it just connected everything because it is the root. it is the source of everything, which means it connected everything together. your not living either, you just deem yourself that because you show certian characteristics you would label as living. nothing has purpose, nothing is determind, its all just here to do whatever it pleases. somethings, less advanced, just dont think so they dont even know what pleases them or even what it is. we can be interconnected by something with no life because life is nothing more then something you have made up. your not one day living and one day die, you simply characterized it as so, and said your living or dead. its the same as good and evil, made up to characterize something. the reason we do things is because we choose to, and we are able to choose to by thought process. at our current stage, these chemical reactions determine what we do. once your thought evolves you can override such chemical reactions, its called total control.
your instincts and all you can override once you figure out how. why you exist doesnt change that you are here. tell me, if you were to find out right now all the answers to why you existed and how it happened, how would that change your goals in life? would you figure out your still here to live, which is find your desires and reach a desired outcome, or just simply explode because the mystery of life has been solved and lost meaning to your life? your lookin for something that will not effect your reason for being, when i say reason for being i mean whatever it is you desire. after you find out all these whys and hows whats left for you to do?
Also, on the subject of alternate physics models... just because our physics states that we had to have THESE SPECIFIC PARAMETERS in order to exist doesn't mean that, if our local physics changed, we'd cease to exist. By the very IDEA of such a local change, physics could change fundamentally and still allow for life as a property of it's new laws... you are relying upon the static physics you have come to understand. What if NOTHING about Physics is correct, it is only correct LOCALLY?
What if in the new physics, particles don't exist? What if in the new physics, we are all two dimensional yet are alive because it's physics dictate we are? You cling too tenaciously to what you think you KNOW that you are ignorant of even what Science POSTULATES and the repurcussions if such theories are true.
Tomorrow you could wake up and find that will can shape matter, and not even an amazing exertion. There is a book about this, it might've been Niven who wrote it, but I'm not exactly sure... a World where reality is mutable by belief and willpower, and chaos ruled until someone invented the christian God in order to straighten things out.