Good remains triumphant over Evil

You know, I don't think you even understand what different physics means.

You are arguing that we would cease to be, it is not guaranteed that if physics changed we would cease to be. Gravity could become greater and reality more mutable to will and we could still exist. What would that say about the new physics? That it isn't the same as the old.

Just because it is possible that a local change in physics would end life doesn't mean it is probable or even the most likely outcome.

If Particles didn't exist, that doesn't mean life couldn't exist. It just means that the laws of physics NO LONGER RELY ON PARTICLES.

You know, I can't explain this to you. You are too stuck on your ideas.

Originally posted by Produkt
Grim,
Granted all matter is composed of this underlying vibrational form of energy, atoms themselve's are still widely seperated from one another. The only connection shared is the same basic building blocks. If I die, my atomic structure, molecular structure breaks down and is used as an energy source for a plant, I'm not truely connected to that planet. That atome or molecule the plant made use of has no life in itself. I cease to exist when I die. I stop producing/using the energy needed to continue to function. My part's break down naturally over time. So yes, we do really die. The sense of us ceases to exist, that chemical/electro-chemical process ceases to function. The only thing that is transfered is the now inert molecule's and atom's.

that the whole thing you not getting there is no ending, you existed before you started "living" just because your experience started doesnt mean you didnt exist before you were born. but if you refuse to see that everything is made at the root of one thing, energy, then idk what to tell you. yes atoms are different, in physical form they take different forms yet are still energy. you are part of that plant, and you are made from the same building blocks as that planet, you are connected. energy cannot be created or destroyed, nor matter. there is never less or more matter. that means we arent individuals, merely different forms of matter and energy.

At it's current state of evolution, the human species will never live in a perfect world of love and peace and wholesome goodness. We are still driven by our animal instict's. Until something come's along, turning off those gene's that produce these instinct's, nothing will change. Love is an emotional response, yes, one possibly evolved from a mating response that we still possess. Love could be taken to be many different factor's of emotional/intictual responses/chemical reactions. I'm no knocking the idea of love, I still feel the emotion, but I won't kid myself.

that something is yourself, its on you to turn those genes off, it is possible. if you dont believe it though then well, whatever you believe cant happen, probably wont. or at least has alot less chances.

Quite wrong, we do understand the negative impact's of nuclear energy, which is why we've developed and continually develope protective measure's against's those negative impacts. This isn't due to a lack nor full understanding of ourselve's, this is due to a full understanding of the process of nuclear energy. it's also thanks to the understanding of the destructive qualities of nuclear energy that we developed the nuclear bomb, again, not because we understood or failed to understand ourselve's.

i can see you do not understand at all. there is no point to argue this with you. theres more effects that are undesirable and will harm us, yet we continue to use it. we use nuclear weapons, pointless weapons. we have no understanding of whats worth doing, just how to do it. science is a tool, and like all tools, can be abused severely. if you truely believe that the nuclear bomb and nuclear power are positive then i guess your not doing much thinking at all...even einstien saw this mistake coming.

While I can't fully answer that question of why money would make us happy, I could hazzard a very educated guess. You can train a dog to salivate at the sound of a bell, it's a reward system of sort's. He hear's the bell and learn's it mean's food. Over time, take away the food, the dog will still salivate. Why? Because instinct tell's the dog bell equals food and thus salivate's in resonse to that. Money didn't alway's exist, before money we traded and bartered, this system, over time evolved into money. Gold and silver, shiny. Many animal's LOVE shiny. Human's LOVE shiny. This was our favorite, and even today, still favorite shiny. Why do we and animal's like shiny? I don't know, but shiny is the true god! Anyway's, back on topic... Money is that same reward system. Money equals goods and services that were back in ancient time's bartered for. We're still feeling that instinct or act of bartering when we exchange money. Just as if you had more to barter with, you got more in return for what you wanted/needed. Same with money of today, the more you have the more you get. Personally I also don't see a reason for money, or even bartering. There's enough space and resources for todays population to live equally, IF we applied ourselve's to achieve that goal, but other instincts come into play destroying the chance's for that happening.

nothing really to argue here, human ignorance on the masses part at its finest. and no as its stands there no way we could live isolationists, not because of wars, because population there just isnt enough space.

Peace is the goal because it is being able to live. You go tell a lion that or a shark. There are no actual goal's to life beyond reproducing and surviving. The reason we live in a world of conflict is thanks to our natural instict's. We're still territorial creature's. There's no shame in that. We have materialism because we are material being's. We cloth ourselve's for very good reason's. We house ourselve's for very good reason's. We procure territory, etc. We are materialistic by our very nature.

the primitive way of the strong survive, well no wonder this society cant progress. now war yes some will survive, and one day strong will come and end them. peace lefts all live life, not just the selective few. but this only means something if you believe we are connected in the sense hurting others is just attacking yourself. energy source for us, well science has done wonders, imagin food that came from non living things. NO MORE PRIONS EITHER!!! lol

The reason we say we're living is due to our self awareness. We are a set of self aware complex chemical reactions capable of reproducing those genetic traits that create more of the same series of complex chemical reactions. A rock, by our definition isn't living because it doesn't do the same. A rock isn't self aware that it is a rock. We on the other hand are self aware that we are self aware. When technology permit's AI to advance to self awareness and allows it to produce more of it's kind, even without producing more of it's kind, I will fully accept that set of complex programming intruction's as being alive. Wholly different from our chemical/electro-chemical computer's we call a brain, but still alive.

my point being: you consider yourself alive, so what? that doesnt mean anything really other then you show specific characteristics. doesnt mean you and the rock arent the same. the energy and matter that has made you up, probably is pieces of rock, people, food, ect. you are not individual you are a contemplation of materials and energy that has taken but another form. thats all you are physically, no different then any other animal. mentally though yes you are because you can think. still doesnt mean anything as far as the connection physically. mentally, its a different type of connection you make, but i wont bother explaining it again.

Can you overide any of your insticts? Which one's are you able to overide. There's a certain level of control we have over some of the basic instict's thanks to our self awareness, but despite all that, strong emotion's will make thing's a whole lot more difficult as for being able to overide your instinct's.

you ever seen a deer jump in the way of a car to try and save its young or friend? no, as we advance these instincts become useless because we think. self preservation is an instinct, and yes thats something you can override if you believe in the cause. difficult is whatever you make it. you can control your emotions when you identify what they will be. if you dont have control over your emotions and instincts then you really arent that far along. your also probably dangerous because anger is another emotion. so yes i believe that you already have some control over your emotions and instincts. eventually we will have complete or total control.

If I knew how life arose for a fact, what processes were involved, it still wouldn't change my outlook of life. It wouldn't change any of my goal's. My natural goal's aren't to do as I desire. By that definition who are we to condemn someone for having the desire and acting upon it to rape someone. There is nothing that will effect my reason for being. I'm fully aware and capable of understanding how it is that we're here. I'm not scared of that fact. I don't quiver in fear and despair just because I learned we're nothing more then a complex chemical machine. If I were able to learn all the why's and how's, I would simply continue to do what it is I'm doing right now, discussing them, procreating, eating, taking breaks to pee and crap. Etc. Nothing would change who I am or "why" I am. As I've said numerous time's, life isn't a divine occurance, there is now WHY, just the HOW. How did the natural process occur that lead to life. There's no reason why it happened, why would imply an unatural reason or a planned reason. All it is, is HOW. How did those first molecular protiens form together to produce what we define as life.

so my question is why waste your short experience asking why when it makes no difference to you? we shouldnt condemn them, nor condemn the father that kills the rapist afterwards. in a society i talk of though, that would rarely occur mainly because there would be no point. physical sex wouldnt have nearly as much emphasis, because its nothing more then a chemical reaction like you said. except they get nothing out of this chemical reaction unless they want to reproduce. what are you doing other then questioning why?
well yes and no, many things change who you are, but nothing will change why you are because there is no why, there nothing behind it....you just happened. physically yea nothing can change the so called past, but there is nothing more then that reaction, so in that sense nothing can change you.
life isnt divine occurance, because life is made up. this experience is devine by our own terms, should be choose it to be. there is why, you just dont see it. the "why did i do that?" when you answer "a chemical reaction" what do we do just go O and walk away, let it happen again. im more interested in progressing as a race instead of just being intellecual screw ups till we destroy ourselves. you did it because those chemicals made you angry, and when you got angry you didnt think and acted on it. next time you refrain from doing the same thing because you keep thinking, using your brain instead of your instincts. and i KNOW this because its kept me from being kicked out of school and my home, so yea i can say we are capable of what we believe we are capable of.

[edit on 7-2-2006 by grimreaper797]

Crystal,

I'm done with you. Your not even understanding what it is your saying nor are you even making any sense. I find it more productive to discuss this with Grim.


Grim,

that the whole thing you not getting there is no ending, you existed before you started "living" just because your experience started doesnt mean you didnt exist before you were born. but if you refuse to see that everything is made at the root of one thing, energy, then idk what to tell you. yes atoms are different, in physical form they take different forms yet are still energy. you are part of that plant, and you are made from the same building blocks as that planet, you are connected. energy cannot be created or destroyed, nor matter. there is never less or more matter. that means we arent individuals, merely different forms of matter and energy.

I understand where your comming from now, but in that light it's more of a religous view akin to a soul. The reality of it is however, yes a certain atom or molecular structure existed prior to me, that eventually lead to my existence doesn't inherently mean I've always existed and will forever exist. And it's untrue that matter cannot be created. There have been experiment's done where matter has been created from light. I'll look up the website tomorrow for you, this'll be my last post for the night. Anyways, I exist as a living, thinking being, not because the atom's that make me always existed. I exist as a living thinking being because those atom's became part of a complex natural process that lead to the chemical processes that lead to my ability to be self aware. If all the atoms that comprise my body became a rock, or air, or any other non living product, I wouldn't exist. The thought's in our head's are electrochemical in nature. A biological computer.

that something is yourself, its on you to turn those genes off, it is possible. if you dont believe it though then well, whatever you believe cant happen, probably wont. or at least has alot less chances.

Yes, possible, but not by sheer will power alone. There are natural occurance's that would facilitate the need for those genes to turn off.

i can see you do not understand at all. there is no point to argue this with you. theres more effects that are undesirable and will harm us, yet we continue to use it. we use nuclear weapons, pointless weapons. we have no understanding of whats worth doing, just how to do it. science is a tool, and like all tools, can be abused severely. if you truely believe that the nuclear bomb and nuclear power are positive then i guess your not doing much thinking at all...even einstien saw this mistake coming.

I don't see nuclear weapon's as positive. Nuclear power however, I do. As do many other's and, again, thanks to our understanding of nuclear energy and it's negative qualities we are able to develope technologies against that.

nothing really to argue here, human ignorance on the masses part at its finest. and no as its stands there no way we could live isolationists, not because of wars, because population there just isnt enough space.

I never stated living as isiolationists. There is enough space through technological mean's for housing and agriculture to provide shelter and food for every human. There's enough resource's to provide everything need for our survival. But as you said, it's human ignorance.

the primitive way of the strong survive, well no wonder this society cant progress. now war yes some will survive, and one day strong will come and end them. peace lefts all live life, not just the selective few. but this only means something if you believe we are connected in the sense hurting others is just attacking yourself. energy source for us, well science has done wonders, imagin food that came from non living things. NO MORE PRIONS EITHER!!! lol

Sadly, thats how it is. Society is still primitive. Still driven by it's instictual and emotional responses. We aren't any better then other species of animals on this planet. Some may be able to say, hey look, if we just stop fighting, blah blah blah, other's will look at you as weak. Easy. Childish. Other's would take that and advance upon your territory and knonk you down. While at the same time, those seeking peace would look at other's as barbaric and primitive. This leads to conflict, and those waging the wars are the ones who prevail in conflict's. A rabbit doesn't sit there praying for a peacfull existance to stop the lion from eating it. The rabbit run's like a mofo.

my point being: you consider yourself alive, so what? that doesnt mean anything really other then you show specific characteristics. doesnt mean you and the rock arent the same. the energy and matter that has made you up, probably is pieces of rock, people, food, ect. you are not individual you are a contemplation of materials and energy that has taken but another form. thats all you are physically, no different then any other animal. mentally though yes you are because you can think. still doesnt mean anything as far as the connection physically. mentally, its a different type of connection you make, but i wont bother explaining it again.

Maybe I'm not understanding this, but I also think your not adequatly explaining it. From your description's, it sound's like a religous view.

you ever seen a deer jump in the way of a car to try and save its young or friend? no, as we advance these instincts become useless because we think. self preservation is an instinct, and yes thats something you can override if you believe in the cause. difficult is whatever you make it. you can control your emotions when you identify what they will be. if you dont have control over your emotions and instincts then you really arent that far along. your also probably dangerous because anger is another emotion. so yes i believe that you already have some control over your emotions and instincts. eventually we will have complete or total control.

Is a deer as self aware as a human? Self preservation still exist's within human's. Some do overide that instinct, but so do some other species of animals, such as ape's. Maybe eventually one day we, as a species will have total control over our emotions and instinct's, but that day isn't going to be within our lifetime's nor our childrens.

so my question is why waste your short experience asking why when it makes no difference to you?

I'm not asking why, I'm asking how. Me, along with countless other's are continually asking how certain thing's work to furthur progress our knowledge and the knowledge for the benefit of our offspring. Why do we do this, I'm not sure, I haven't learned of the evolutionary aspect that lead us to strive for knwoledge and understanding.

physical sex wouldnt have nearly as much emphasis, because its nothing more then a chemical reaction like you said. except they get nothing out of this chemical reaction unless they want to reproduce.

I don't see any end in physical sex. Not only does it serve the purpose of reproduction, but it's also very pleasurable. Yes, chemically induced pleasure within our brain's, but the knowledge of that isn't going to stop anyone from continuing to do it.

there is why, you just dont see it. the "why did i do that?" when you answer "a chemical reaction" what do we do just go O and walk away, let it happen again. im more interested in progressing as a race instead of just being intellecual screw ups till we destroy ourselves. you did it because those chemicals made you angry, and when you got angry you didnt think and acted on it. next time you refrain from doing the same thing because you keep thinking, using your brain instead of your instincts. and i KNOW this because its kept me from being kicked out of school and my home, so yea i can say we are capable of what we believe we are capable of.

While I do strongly believe alot of our action's are brought about by chemicaly induced and enviromentally induced reaction's, I still don't write those action's off as acceptable. The self awareness we as a species have, should ideally stop us from acting upon socially viewed negative actions. I don't see this happening anytime soon for anyone though. It won't happen untill society as a whole can accept a more symbiotic realtionship with one another. In some way's, an NWO of sort's. We all strive towards one goal, that being the continuance of all people. Too bad we're not fully evolved enough yet for this.

Originally posted by Produkt
point,

Where are you getting this whole good and evil predate blah blah idea from? The force's behind a cause and effect event are driven by many thing's. Natural occurance's. Evil doesn't make a storm appear. Good doesn't make a rainbow appear. Those are cause and effect event's. Evil doesn't make a man kill another man. That way of thinking is just calling out a scape goat to blame the cause and effect event that the man brought about. Evil doesn't force a man to pick up a gun, point it at someone and pull the trigger. His emotional response's do. A chemical imbalance inside his brain tha trigger's a strong killing instinct from way back when we were still killing each other out of aggression, territory, and pecking order. A kind of alpha male complex. A natural human response. Not an evil force.

What are the force/energy(s) that designed (caused) storms, rainbows, emotions, chemical imbalances, strong killing instincts, aggression,territorial disputes, pecking orders,alpha male complexes, 'natural' human responses to exist in the first place, thus allowing the effects such as a man picking up a gun, pointing it at someone and pulling the trigger.

Nature and good and/or evil are not mutually exclusive.
Nature is not exempt from the very real war between good and evil. Nature is a product of it, and all things in nature are subject to the ongoing influence and manipulation by these two energies.

Point,

There are no good/evil forces causing storms and rainbows. Rainbows occur when sunlight reflects through rain, or something to that effect. Storms are natural weather happenings. I'm not a weather man myself, but maybe you'd like to email one and discuss it with him. A man picking up a gun and using it isn't forced by evil to do so. That man, made a conscious choice to do that based upon many differing variable's both withing the electrchemical firing's in the brain and the enviromental influences of his surroundings. Good and evil are words. Descriptive words created by man. They hold no meaning. You take away man's language, take away his ability to think and be self aware, then those words don't exist anymore. We'd be just like the animals. Are we still directed by evil when we kill to eat? Are lion's directed by evil when they kill to eat? Is a mother directed by evil to kill in order to protect its child?

Damn. I no longer believe in the freedom of speech or assembly. I sure can wait for this great depression/climate collapse/apocalypse that's coming to get here, but when it eventually does at least it will be sweet relief from listening to the so many idiots who babble endlessly on about matters they know nothing of. The arrogance is choking.

bigpappadiaz,

Rather then posting negative remarks that have no meaning to anything discussed within the thread, could you please post on topic to any of the venues of discussion. If you have nothing of value to add to the discussion then you shouldn't be posting in this thread. If you have a problem with a particular member's view's, either discuss those view's or U2U that person. A generalized negative post neither add's to the discussion, nor address's any issue's. It's nothing short of childish insult's.

Originally posted by Produkt
I understand where your comming from now, but in that light it's more of a religous view akin to a soul. The reality of it is however, yes a certain atom or molecular structure existed prior to me, that eventually lead to my existence doesn't inherently mean I've always existed and will forever exist. And it's untrue that matter cannot be created. There have been experiment's done where matter has been created from light. I'll look up the website tomorrow for you, this'll be my last post for the night. Anyways, I exist as a living, thinking being, not because the atom's that make me always existed. I exist as a living thinking being because those atom's became part of a complex natural process that lead to the chemical processes that lead to my ability to be self aware. If all the atoms that comprise my body became a rock, or air, or any other non living product, I wouldn't exist. The thought's in our head's are electrochemical in nature. A biological computer.

physically yes you have always existed, mentally, no. we take many different forms through the course of time, as in time i mean millions of years. everything physically that makes up you, has been around before "you" you arent an individual physically, you just pieces of matter put together in another form. You, mentally, wouldnt exist. thats not what im saying though, im saying you in the physical sesne would, you may not remain whole, but what made up you still exists, so you still technically exist. you dont disappear or something, you just break apart and take new physical forms. mentally, yes, once your 'dead' in the way your body breaks down and apart you probably stop functioning, but since im no expert on what happens after death i cant fully say what happens mentally after death. no you cant either unless youve tried it, i dont mean near death or dead for a minute...i mean a full out brain gone body gone dead.

Yes, possible, but not by sheer will power alone. There are natural occurance's that would facilitate the need for those genes to turn off.

repetitive power to no longer need these DNA will though. like tails, we learned to go without, but they didnt fall off. they were still there for many years even though we didnt need them. we still even have the tailbone, yet we have no need for it, it is there. much like the tail, DNA overtime if we continue to override it and such it will become useless and start to physically turn off.

I don't see nuclear weapon's as positive. Nuclear power however, I do. As do many other's and, again, thanks to our understanding of nuclear energy and it's negative qualities we are able to develope technologies against that.

tell me what science has done to get rid of nuclear waste from energy? my point is that we didnt think it through and we ARE going to pay for it because our rash minds failed to see the outcomes.

I never stated living as isiolationists. There is enough space through technological mean's for housing and agriculture to provide shelter and food for every human. There's enough resource's to provide everything need for our survival. But as you said, it's human ignorance.

at this point, i dont think physically there is enough room for everyone to live. death is part of nature, we dont except this, but eventualy it will still prevail. it will just end many lives at once instead of little at a time. if we didnt produce like rabbits, the people who were living could live better. genetic modification of foods and stuff like that is another thing we havent thought through. we do whatever to survive and get the immediate best outcome because we dont think ahead. we cant make clear judgements on what lies ahead because of our way of thinking. if we dicover ourselves and our way of thinking then we can change it. once we change it we can make more rational decisions. by the way, food wise is going to end up hurting ALOT if not ALL people because we believe we can supply everyone with food. even then it will eventually not be able to supply the demand and people will die that way as well.

Sadly, thats how it is. Society is still primitive. Still driven by it's instictual and emotional responses. We aren't any better then other species of animals on this planet. Some may be able to say, hey look, if we just stop fighting, blah blah blah, other's will look at you as weak. Easy. Childish. Other's would take that and advance upon your territory and knonk you down. While at the same time, those seeking peace would look at other's as barbaric and primitive. This leads to conflict, and those waging the wars are the ones who prevail in conflict's. A rabbit doesn't sit there praying for a peacfull existance to stop the lion from eating it. The rabbit run's like a mofo.

society is primitive, agreed. wanting peace is one thing, defense is another. when i say peace i mean talk it out. when they start to charge with a knife, kill them if you have to. try not to kill them, do everything you can to stop them, like the police SHOULD be doing, but if something happens and the other person dies, o well. until everyone finds peace, theres no shame in using violence as a last resort, try not to kill or perminately damage but if you do, then o well. well the rabbit cant think nor the lion, like we can. but if they could the rabbit would try peace, but once the lion came running to eat it, it would do whatever means to evade it or kill it...of course a rabbit almost definately couldnt unless it tricked it to running off a ledge.

Maybe I'm not understanding this, but I also think your not adequatly explaining it. From your description's, it sound's like a religous view.

no its simply what it is, you are not an individual physically. mentally yes but physically no. your identity lies within your mind. you can connect mentally through understanding but mentally is your own real individual sense. what you may see LOOKS different, but in sense is all the same thing.

Is a deer as self aware as a human? Self preservation still exist's within human's. Some do overide that instinct, but so do some other species of animals, such as ape's. Maybe eventually one day we, as a species will have total control over our emotions and instinct's, but that day isn't going to be within our lifetime's nor our childrens.

apes are also more advanced then most animals, our closest relative mind you. well optimism is the best mental tool you can posses so i strive to make it come within my lifetime or at least as soon as possible instead of giving up saying "maybe next generation"

I'm not asking why, I'm asking how. Me, along with countless other's are continually asking how certain thing's work to furthur progress our knowledge and the knowledge for the benefit of our offspring. Why do we do this, I'm not sure, I haven't learned of the evolutionary aspect that lead us to strive for knwoledge and understanding.

thats not knowledge because nothing you understand is 100% correct. there are multiple ways to build say, a shed. by lookin at a line of shed identical to one another, you would look for a way that its been built. but because their were multiple ways, leading to the same outcome, you can never be sure which way took place. unless you time travel, which is very contraversal so ill leave that alone.

I don't see any end in physical sex. Not only does it serve the purpose of reproduction, but it's also very pleasurable. Yes, chemically induced pleasure within our brain's, but the knowledge of that isn't going to stop anyone from continuing to do it.

they dont see the actual negative things coming from it though because they are acting again on instinct. which they can override when they see that reproducing offspring in large amounts is no longer required because we have evolved enough to no longer have preditors. instinct tells us to mate like crazy because most of our young wont make it, we will be killed of by viruses and such. because of evolution physically and mentally, we have overcome this. we need to change our instinct because now its hurting us in many ways.

While I do strongly believe alot of our action's are brought about by chemicaly induced and enviromentally induced reaction's, I still don't write those action's off as acceptable. The self awareness we as a species have, should ideally stop us from acting upon socially viewed negative actions. I don't see this happening anytime soon for anyone though. It won't happen untill society as a whole can accept a more symbiotic realtionship with one another. In some way's, an NWO of sort's. We all strive towards one goal, that being the continuance of all people. Too bad we're not fully evolved enough yet for this.

this is what worries me the most. you believe it must happen on a massive scale in order to happen at all. unrealistic and not very possible. if you dont find peace as an individual how do you ever expect to find peace as a group, or even more the human race. its just not possible because we have yet to even deal with ourselves. we need to find peace in ourselves, which is what ive been saying all along. it starts with the individual and grows from there. society as a whole cant except it till one person excepts it. i dont see it because im not a fortune teller. i am optimistic though because that has a great effect of the outcome.

www.hado.com. amazing what the building blocks of life can tell you, i wonder what the building blocks of matter could tell us.

by the way matter cant be created, but energy can be converted into matter which is what your talkin about with light thing. but since energy is in a sense what made matter anyway that doesnt change anything in this arguement.

physically yes you have always existed, mentally, no. we take many different forms through the course of time, as in time i mean millions of years. everything physically that makes up you, has been around before "you" you arent an individual physically, you just pieces of matter put together in another form.

My problem is however, the atoms that make up my body aren't really "me". Our ability to think of the term of "me" "us" "them" is due to how those atoms are arranged. "I" am nothing more then an advance biological computer, that's who "we" are. If "we" didn't have this programming, then of course meantally, "we" wouldn't exist, but "we" don't continue to exist just because those atom's that we were made from continue to exist. "I'm" not connected to a tree, as "I'm" the sum of my programming, despite if one of the atom's within my body came from a tree or goto a tree. Basicly, "I" am not the atom that make's up "me". "My" mentality only exist due to the arrangment of those atom's.

no you cant either unless youve tried it, i dont mean near death or dead for a minute...i mean a full out brain gone body gone dead.

Death equals death. Your body stops functioning, stop producing the energy needed to fire off the nueron's in your brain. Stops pumping the blood through your body. Eventually you decompose into a meaningless clump of organic matter. There have been experiment's with using electromagnetic fields on the human brain. People under these fields believed they experienced different thing's, depending upon what they believed in. One person would say he talked to god, another would vividly recall being abducted by aliens. The brain is still a mysterious organ, one we're learning about constantly, but once the body stop's producing the energy the brain uses, the brain no longer has anything it need's to function, and our brain's are nothing more then electrochemical computer's. It needs energy to operate, just as your computer your using now does.

repetitive power to no longer need these DNA will though. like tails, we learned to go without, but they didnt fall off. they were still there for many years even though we didnt need them. we still even have the tailbone, yet we have no need for it, it is there. much like the tail, DNA overtime if we continue to override it and such it will become useless and start to physically turn off.

Right, we no longer have tail's. We no longer have tail's because of sheer will power alone. We never willed them off of us. Our use of tail's was enviromental, our lack of using them was enviromental. Our instict's are enviromental, our lack of more primitive instincts we may not have anymore are enviromental. Unless something happen's to the point where we don't make use of or need a certain trait/quality then it'll always remain there. Maybe over time we could learn to control our emotion's to such an extent that those instinct's are no longer coded in our dna, but that time is very long off and require's all of humanity to have the ability to be peacfull to one another.

tell me what science has done to get rid of nuclear waste from energy? my point is that we didnt think it through and we ARE going to pay for it because our rash minds failed to see the outcomes.

Actually, science is trying to develope technologies and techniques to safely dispose or make nuclear waste inert. This is because we DO see what the harmfull outcome will be if we don't. Do a quick google search on it.

at this point, i dont think physically there is enough room for everyone to live. death is part of nature, we dont except this, but eventualy it will still prevail. it will just end many lives at once instead of little at a time. if we didnt produce like rabbits, the people who were living could live better. genetic modification of foods and stuff like that is another thing we havent thought through. we do whatever to survive and get the immediate best outcome because we dont think ahead. we cant make clear judgements on what lies ahead because of our way of thinking. if we dicover ourselves and our way of thinking then we can change it. once we change it we can make more rational decisions. by the way, food wise is going to end up hurting ALOT if not ALL people because we believe we can supply everyone with food. even then it will eventually not be able to supply the demand and people will die that way as well.

There is enough space, in a technological sense. Underground cities could potentially reach to five miles, maybe more. Skyscraper's built above ground. Thing's like that. Hydroponic farming can grow more in the same amount of space as land based farming. As we grow, we should be evolving our society along with it's technology.

society is primitive, agreed. wanting peace is one thing, defense is another. when i say peace i mean talk it out. when they start to charge with a knife, kill them if you have to. try not to kill them, do everything you can to stop them, like the police SHOULD be doing, but if something happens and the other person dies, o well. until everyone finds peace, theres no shame in using violence as a last resort, try not to kill or perminately damage but if you do, then o well. well the rabbit cant think nor the lion, like we can. but if they could the rabbit would try peace, but once the lion came running to eat it, it would do whatever means to evade it or kill it...of course a rabbit almost definately couldnt unless it tricked it to running off a ledge.

As long as people kill out of self defense, or physicallt damage, fight, be in conflict with one another, then there will never be peace. Peace will never be realized until every man, woman, and child on earth accepted a peacfull existance. As long as there's conflict, the instinct's for aggression, territory, etc will never die off.

no its simply what it is, you are not an individual physically. mentally yes but physically no. your identity lies within your mind. you can connect mentally through understanding but mentally is your own real individual sense. what you may see LOOKS different, but in sense is all the same thing.

Ah, but physically I am indivual. The atoms inside me, are not the atoms inside you. My body isn't connected to your body physically. If it were, we'd be siamese twins. But as I stated above earlier, and as you touched up here, I am me mentally, but that's only mentally. The universe doesn't care about the atom's that are in me, nor the arrangment they've taken that allowed me to function the way I do. Neither do those atoms for that matter!

apes are also more advanced then most animals, our closest relative mind you. well optimism is the best mental tool you can posses so i strive to make it come within my lifetime or at least as soon as possible instead of giving up saying "maybe next generation"

While I agree optimism is a good way of thinking, unfortunatly it's not the only way. You may be optimistic, but will your children be wired for optimism. Will their children be wired for it, and so on.

hey dont see the actual negative things coming from it though because they are acting again on instinct. which they can override when they see that reproducing offspring in large amounts is no longer required because we have evolved enough to no longer have preditors. instinct tells us to mate like crazy because most of our young wont make it, we will be killed of by viruses and such. because of evolution physically and mentally, we have overcome this. we need to change our instinct because now its hurting us in many ways.

The instinct to mate will never go away. True, there's billions of people on this planet today, but as we grow technologically, there's nothing to stop us from spreading off this planet. We have plenty of more space in our own solar system to hold billions of more people. Venus and Mars could be terraformed to become more earth like. Giant space station colonies could be built. We're not totaly without option's here.

if you dont find peace as an individual how do you ever expect to find peace as a group, or even more the human race. its just not possible because we have yet to even deal with ourselves. we need to find peace in ourselves, which is what ive been saying all along.

And that right there is what I'm saying. Your saying you have to find peace within yourself first. How do you find peace within yourself when the guy next to you is goading you into conflict. If that conflict were a life or death situation, do you let him kill you, so as you can remain peacfull, or do you break that peacefull mindset by killing out of survival?

in your last post its become painfully obvious either your not understanding what im saying because your own ideas dont allow you, or your simply arent reading what im really saying. i feel its useless to keep this conversation going because you truely with all your heart believe that A. we see both good and bad outcomes which we dont or nuclear energy would not have been explored past the first stage B. that the phsycial you isnt even considered you, but thats the only reason a mental you exists, so that doesnt make sense how you could deny that there is a physical you. C. you can state for a fact you know what happens after death.

you know nothing but yourselve, and until you grasp that there is no reason for this conversation to go on because the other concepts include that. you dont know you just found one way that may work. you dont know physics because any variable can occur to effect them at any time. the next einstien could come along and blow away everything up to now, with totally new physics. since our physics isnt flawless nothing physical is known. just because you found a way to do something doesnt mean that its the best way. or general relativity where everything on a large scale works, but we find eventually that this doesnt apply to quantum things. sure general relativity will always have the same results on the large scale, because for the large scale it works. yet we cant call it science since it doesnt apply to ALL things. it doesnt apply to the entire universe and everything in it. until we find the theory that solves it all and it all works flawlessly, we cant even claim to know anything on the physical level.

mentally ive already told you where you need to be to start understanding things. your belief that we must ALL reach this evolving point at once shows me your little understanding of how things work mentally. so ill leave you with that to think about.

EDIT: id also like to say that your idea that we should be like parasites instead of evolving makes me sick to an extent. if you take the chemical part out of the equation, there is no reason to mate more then after 1 or maybe 2 children. i showed you why its no longer reasonable on a natural level, and thats leveling with you. one last thing. peace isnt letting some one kill you, its being able to not use violence unless theres no other choice. a peaceful civilization many thousands of year more advanced then some other civilization wont war with them and will willing try to help them advance without reasons behind it. they will do everything they can to help them, even if this race is primitive. but should the race start attacking them, they wont kill them, just take their weapons away and show them why they are wrong. should they have no other option they will try to subdue them every way they can to not lead to death. if there is any chance to spair them they will.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by grimreaper797]

A. we see both good and bad outcomes which we dont or nuclear energy would not have been explored past the first stage

I'm not sure what boat your sailing on, BUT, before we developed the first nuclear plant, we knew PRIOR to that about radiation. We already knew and fully understood it's effect's. It's because of that understanding that we developed a way for human's to work near and in the plant without being killed from an overdose of that radiation. Our way of handling nuclear waste, burying it deep underground where it has little if any affect upon anyone, also considering the location of these site's are very remote from any human habitat. BECAUSE of our understanding that this waste is still harmfull we are currently researching more efficient ways of dealing with that waste.

[EDIT] For one example of how nuclear waste is being dealt with, beside's being burried, take a look at this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

B. that the phsycial you isnt even considered you, but thats the only reason a mental you exists, so that doesnt make sense how you could deny that there is a physical you.

While I'm alive, yes there is a physical me. After I'm gone, my body is decomposed, it's material made use from something else, that "physical" me is gone. The physical SHAPE of me no longer exist's. The MENTALITY of me no longer exists. So how is it that "I" continue to exist forever?

C. you can state for a fact you know what happens after death.

And you can thank scientist's for that. The mystery of death isn't a mystery. Let's use your computer as an example. It requires energy to function. Now, let's throw in an advance AI program that's not only intelligent and capable of higher thought, but also self aware. Talk to it for a week, then unplug it. What happens to that program? Does it go off to some magical afterlife in it's "dead" state? That program only existed thanks to the curcuits, wiring, transistor's and the ENERGY needed to run the program. It never existed prior to being "born" and it doesn't go anywhere after it's "dead".

Our brain's are nothing more than a computer. One of the most advanced on this planet that evolution has evolved. Our electrochemical computer's cannot and willnot function without a source of energy. Just as the AI program in your computer. If we were able to build that AI a body it could reproduce and possibly improve upon, by every sense that machine would be "alive". It would do everything human's are capable of. But in the end, both would cease to function without a source of power. And that's what death is. Cold, unfeeling, nothingness.

you know nothing but yourselve, and until you grasp that there is no reason for this conversation to go on because the other concepts include that. you dont know you just found one way that may work.

And in that same respect, then you yourself don't know yourself. But, as you stated, we can't achieve peace without knowing ourselve's. So, if we only think of "one" way to know ourselve's, but that still means we don't know anything about ourselve's, then how are we to ever achieve peace in the fashion you speak of?

you dont know physics because any variable can occur to effect them at any time. the next einstien could come along and blow away everything up to now, with totally new physics. since our physics isnt flawless nothing physical is known. just because you found a way to do something doesnt mean that its the best way. or general relativity where everything on a large scale works, but we find eventually that this doesnt apply to quantum things. sure general relativity will always have the same results on the large scale, because for the large scale it works. yet we cant call it science since it doesnt apply to ALL things. it doesnt apply to the entire universe and everything in it. until we find the theory that solves it all and it all works flawlessly, we cant even claim to know anything on the physical level.

That's one of the wonder's of science, yes, the next einstien could come along and find a better explanation for how the universe works. A better way of describing it in theory. What we know now does work however, is experimentally proven, and put into everyday practice. If this means we don't know anything, then wouldn't this apply to language's, to math's, to reading, to just about everything. Sure, there are several ways to arrive at the same answer, but arriving at the same answer doesn't make one way any more wrong then the other. The end result would still be gravity on earth is a certain rate, for example. Relativity and quantum mechanics do work at different level's, we didn't write the "law's" to that though, we just discovered them, and I'm sure we could come up with countless other ways of describing the same effect's, but in the end, those effect's are still the same. Again, more than one way to describe one thing doesn't make one way or the other wrong.

mentally ive already told you where you need to be to start understanding things. your belief that we must ALL reach this evolving point at once shows me your little understanding of how things work mentally. so ill leave you with that to think about.

Truthfully, in your own post's you do hint to this. Wheather you realize it or not, or unintentionally meant to. Your idea of one must know himself to achieve peace idea, would only, and only be workable if all worked to attain that same goal, and as I pointed out IF you were in a life or death situation, would you allow yourself to be killed to maintain your peacfull stance or would you kill out of self preservation. It's a very very valid question posed to your belief's of attaining peace.

One one hand, you could maintain your peacfull stance, but at the price of death, thanks to the person who doesn't hold those same views.

On the other hand, you could throw away your peacfull stance and give into the instinctual repsonses of self preservation.

And as I stated also, there will always be conflict unless all did work as one to attain peacfull coexistance. You can't have your cake and eat it to, so to speak.

id also like to say that your idea that we should be like parasites instead of evolving makes me sick to an extent. if you take the chemical part out of the equation, there is no reason to mate more then after 1 or maybe 2 children. i showed you why its no longer reasonable on a natural level, and thats leveling with you. one last thing. peace isnt letting some one kill you, its being able to not use violence unless theres no other choice. a peaceful civilization many thousands of year more advanced then some other civilization wont war with them and will willing try to help them advance without reasons behind it. they will do everything they can to help them, even if this race is primitive. but should the race start attacking them, they wont kill them, just take their weapons away and show them why they are wrong. should they have no other option they will try to subdue them every way they can to not lead to death. if there is any chance to spair them they will.

No where have I stated living as parasite's. If your refering to colonizing other planet's, I honestly don't see that as being parasitical. Unless of course those planet's have indiginous life currently living on them, but even that could be argued. As for reproduction, not only would you need to take the pleasurable aspect of sex away, but also the joyfull aspect parent's have from having children. Some people just keep having as many as they can, not all, but some. My wife has a relative you did just that. Not out of need, but out of love. They loved each of their children and would have had more if it didn't damage her ovaries. There are many reason's why we have children. Many variable's you may not understand. Love, joy, pleasure, excitment, want, desire etc. Basicly you'd have to be pretty emotionless to live in the world your describing. As for it being unreasonable on a natural level, far from it. We're technologicly capable of extending our natural living space. If Earth were our only option for a natural living space, then yes, you'd be right, we are reaching our limit, on the surface atleast. Still plenty of room below ground for cities, and skyscraper cities are far from impossible even today.

As for your notion of a peacfull race, show me one definable example of such a race in existance that prove's your way of thinking.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by Produkt]

Originally posted by Produkt
I'm not sure what boat your sailing on, BUT, before we developed the first nuclear plant, we knew PRIOR to that about radiation. We already knew and fully understood it's effect's. It's because of that understanding that we developed a way for human's to work near and in the plant without being killed from an overdose of that radiation. Our way of handling nuclear waste, burying it deep underground where it has little if any affect upon anyone, also considering the location of these site's are very remote from any human habitat. BECAUSE of our understanding that this waste is still harmfull we are currently researching more efficient ways of dealing with that waste.

and the salt mine which they bury it in flooded about 10,000 years ago, so whos to say it wont do so again at anytime? also how long are you going to bury it for, and eventually your going to run out of room,so what then? like said none of you really think long term, its always the immediate solutions.

While I'm alive, yes there is a physical me. After I'm gone, my body is decomposed, it's material made use from something else, that "physical" me is gone. The physical SHAPE of me no longer exist's. The MENTALITY of me no longer exists. So how is it that "I" continue to exist forever?

that physical you doesnt have an Identity in the sense its only you, you are just a part of its history of things it has become. physically you is everything. because physically everything is connected at its roots. you repeatedly say because of its characteristics that its not and thats not true.

And you can thank scientist's for that. The mystery of death isn't a mystery. Let's use your computer as an example. It requires energy to function. Now, let's throw in an advance AI program that's not only intelligent and capable of higher thought, but also self aware. Talk to it for a week, then unplug it. What happens to that program? Does it go off to some magical afterlife in it's "dead" state? That program only existed thanks to the curcuits, wiring, transistor's and the ENERGY needed to run the program. It never existed prior to being "born" and it doesn't go anywhere after it's "dead".

yes that is a possibility, but tell me where any of this is PROVEN? your relying on science that isnt solid, even gravity and the basic forms of physics and such at anytime could be found to be wrong and another force could be existing, im not saying god, just not what we thought. that interia isnt the reason, and though it was a very accurate result it wasnt the most accurate or right. nothing in science is proven, because we never know if there is a more accurate answer that changes everything.

Our brain's are nothing more than a computer. One of the most advanced on this planet that evolution has evolved. Our electrochemical computer's cannot and willnot function without a source of energy. Just as the AI program in your computer. If we were able to build that AI a body it could reproduce and possibly improve upon, by every sense that machine would be "alive". It would do everything human's are capable of. But in the end, both would cease to function without a source of power. And that's what death is. Cold, unfeeling, nothingness.

in the end you have it backwards, mentally you dont really exist, your just made to believe so. physically is the only real form you exist in any form. mentally you just trick yourself to believe otherwise. death is just your explaination for why somethings characteristics changed physically. neither of us, or machines, are above a physical state. the physical state is energy.

And in that same respect, then you yourself don't know yourself. But, as you stated, we can't achieve peace without knowing ourselve's. So, if we only think of "one" way to know ourselve's, but that still means we don't know anything about ourselve's, then how are we to ever achieve peace in the fashion you speak of?

there isnt just ONE way to know yourselve, its not some universal rule to discovering who you are. you analyse in different situations, think. in that respect everyone has there own way to figure out who they are. who they are mentally is what im talkin about. the peace is coming to except your mental mind is made up and your actions are just actually reactions. that death is only mental, not physical, because nothing physical can die. mentally we can die because we can experience an end, physically we cannot because there is no end, physically we are the universe. peace is knowing this much and knowing how to use your mental experience to the best of your ability, for whatever you want.
knowing ourselves is knowing why we do what we do and seeing past that. then just doing what the obvious is. the benefits and negatives of situations become clear because it will be common sense. not that its right or wrong, just the pros and cons will be obvious because we will see the long term effects and short term equally.

That's one of the wonder's of science, yes, the next einstien could come along and find a better explanation for how the universe works. A better way of describing it in theory. What we know now does work however, is experimentally proven, and put into everyday practice. If this means we don't know anything, then wouldn't this apply to language's, to math's, to reading, to just about everything. Sure, there are several ways to arrive at the same answer, but arriving at the same answer doesn't make one way any more wrong then the other. The end result would still be gravity on earth is a certain rate, for example. Relativity and quantum mechanics do work at different level's, we didn't write the "law's" to that though, we just discovered them, and I'm sure we could come up with countless other ways of describing the same effect's, but in the end, those effect's are still the same. Again, more than one way to describe one thing doesn't make one way or the other wrong.

your failure to see the true meaning of my posts are becoming aggervating. when these simple fundamental changes occur, yes gravity is still gravity, yet because the rules are now different but with the same outcome as gravity many new doors become unlocked. sure gravity would still be but for all we know things we thought were impossible may suddenly be necessary. its funny though because it seems you cant even look far enough ahead into situations to realize these simple things. so im done here.

Truthfully, in your own post's you do hint to this. Wheather you realize it or not, or unintentionally meant to. Your idea of one must know himself to achieve peace idea, would only, and only be workable if all worked to attain that same goal, and as I pointed out IF you were in a life or death situation, would you allow yourself to be killed to maintain your peacfull stance or would you kill out of self preservation. It's a very very valid question posed to your belief's of attaining peace.

One one hand, you could maintain your peacfull stance, but at the price of death, thanks to the person who doesn't hold those same views.

On the other hand, you could throw away your peacfull stance and give into the instinctual repsonses of self preservation.

And as I stated also, there will always be conflict unless all did work as one to attain peacfull coexistance. You can't have your cake and eat it to, so to speak.

your black and white fine line is annoying to say the least. that in order to be at peace with yourself you have to be non violent in all cases. i never once said the race was at peace, just that i was. i dont experience conflicts anymore like you do. peace isnt something everyone would have to work to. if you were truely advanced youd see the benefits of it all and wouldnt need to work toward this goal at all, it would be just by understanding that you benefit from it. peace on a global scale isnt a group action, its an individual action. you want to believe that everyone must work together to reach peace. everyone most work with themselves to reach inner peace. you cant have a peaceful race if they have no peace within themselves.
no its not a valid question because you want to believe that if i were at peace with myself that i wouldnt be able to protect myself from people who are lost. this isnt true because in order for there to be peace between two people they both must have peace within themselves first.
disagreements yes, conflicts physically no. if they found peace in themselves theyd see that they couldnt possibly benefit from a physical conflict, they learn nothing and gain nothing. starting such conflicts are like running from your problem rather then solving it.

No where have I stated living as parasite's. If your refering to colonizing other planet's, I honestly don't see that as being parasitical. Unless of course those planet's have indiginous life currently living on them, but even that could be argued. As for reproduction, not only would you need to take the pleasurable aspect of sex away, but also the joyfull aspect parent's have from having children. Some people just keep having as many as they can, not all, but some. My wife has a relative you did just that. Not out of need, but out of love. They loved each of their children and would have had more if it didn't damage her ovaries. There are many reason's why we have children. Many variable's you may not understand. Love, joy, pleasure, excitment, want, desire etc. Basicly you'd have to be pretty emotionless to live in the world your describing. As for it being unreasonable on a natural level, far from it. We're technologicly capable of extending our natural living space. If Earth were our only option for a natural living space, then yes, you'd be right, we are reaching our limit, on the surface atleast. Still plenty of room below ground for cities, and skyscraper cities are far from impossible even today.

As for your notion of a peacfull race, show me one definable example of such a race in existance that prove's your way of thinking.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by Produkt]

the funny part is that you dont even see that the connection of love and joy you make with those people close to you, are the connection you should be making with every person. not to mention all the above reasons were the same chemical reactions. thats it. its not emotionless, just that you dont experience stronger emotions for certian people. you experience it for all. and i didnt say you couldnt have kids, just that it wouldnt be for the same reasons. the reasons you listed are chemcial reactions that arent always there. reproduction isnt for your joy and pleasure. reproduction is to reproduce life. these people arent your toys, and you making a bunch of new lives is pointless. reproducing is fine, but over reproducting when you dont need to is selfish.
also, its definately the type of parasite characteristics. we spread, consume, reproduce, repeat. again though technology being used for the wrong reasons. things that arent beneficial, and ultimately destructive. but no underground there isnt any, we will need that room to store the nuclear waste youve created with your science and ways to get rid of it.

i cant name a race because life on this planet has been around long enough to be this advanced. its that simple, maybe lightyears away from us id bet there is, just not here.

and the salt mine which they bury it in flooded about 10,000 years ago, so whos to say it wont do so again at anytime? also how long are you going to bury it for, and eventually your going to run out of room,so what then? like said none of you really think long term, its always the immediate solutions.

Are you completly ignoring the fact that we're currently working on method's to handle the waste problem more efficiently? The location's these area's are in won't be flooding anytime soon. There's more then enough time to develope the technologies, which we're quickly closing in on, to deal with the waste. They are thinking long term, which is why they're discovering different techniques to make this waste inert, or reusable for energy.

that physical you doesnt have an Identity in the sense its only you, you are just a part of its history of things it has become. physically you is everything. because physically everything is connected at its roots. you repeatedly say because of its characteristics that its not and thats not true.

By what your getting at, or appear to be getting at is we're also a stick of dynamite. Or we're also the sun and moon. Yes, We ARE made up from those atom's, but NO, that isn't us in the truest sense. As I keep trying to explain, "I"[/] exist mentally. There's no "physical" me. There are physical interaction's that lead to my existance, but the mental aspect of who were are, based upon that electrochemical computer we call a brain, define's "ME". After that interaction cease's to exist, I too cease to exist. You destroy a computer, all the information inside that computer doesn't continue to exist. It's GONE. The atomic structure's may continue on and become integrated into a can of pepsi, but that can of pepsi doesn't contain the programming instruction's that gave that computer a sense of self awareness. That aspect is gone forever. You take away the physical form/shape, that too is gone forever.

yes that is a possibility, but tell me where any of this is PROVEN? your relying on science that isnt solid, even gravity and the basic forms of physics and such at anytime could be found to be wrong and another force could be existing, im not saying god, just not what we thought. that interia isnt the reason, and though it was a very accurate result it wasnt the most accurate or right. nothing in science is proven, because we never know if there is a more accurate answer that changes everything.

Just as we know that turning off the self aware computer, cutting off it's source of power causes it to not function, those same exact aspect's can be applied to the human brain. The human brain IS an organic computer capable of self awareness. There is no evidence of a soul, no evidence of a heaven. There is evidence that the electrochemical function's of a brain need a source of energy to function and taking away that energy, it ceases to function. There's been no evidence that this energy moves on to some eternal after life, but the physics of energy dissipitation is well understood and put into practice everyday. Weather you understand it, comprehend it or whatnot mean's nothing to it's occurance. It's always been like this and will forever be like this. We can define it any way we want, but the end answer will always be the same.

in the end you have it backwards, mentally you dont really exist, your just made to believe so. physically is the only real form you exist in any form. mentally you just trick yourself to believe otherwise. death is just your explaination for why somethings characteristics changed physically. neither of us, or machines, are above a physical state. the physical state is energy.

In a way you could say that, but that physical form, interactions and shape that define me, after it's gone, it's gone. Those atom's may still exist, but I cannot say they are me nor you. The physical interaction's that lead to our existance are no longer present within those atoms. They no longer take our form or level of interaction leading to our mentality.

the peace is coming to except your mental mind is made up and your actions are just actually reactions. that death is only mental, not physical, because nothing physical can die. mentally we can die because we can experience an end, physically we cannot because there is no end, physically we are the universe. peace is knowing this much and knowing how to use your mental experience to the best of your ability, for whatever you want.

So people will only be able to realize peace if they understand and overcome they're action's and believe they'll continue to exist physically just because energy and matter can't be created/destroyed? This make's absolutly no sense what so ever, and for the very reason's I noted above.

knowing ourselves is knowing why we do what we do and seeing past that. then just doing what the obvious is. the benefits and negatives of situations become clear because it will be common sense. not that its right or wrong, just the pros and cons will be obvious because we will see the long term effects and short term equally.

Are you taking into consideration the various different wiring's of the brain between individual's? The chemical imbalance's that lead to different diseases of the brain or learning disabilities, or mental retardation? These thing's can not be overcome by those individuals. Those people would have trouble realizing the pro's and con's.

your failure to see the true meaning of my posts are becoming aggervating. when these simple fundamental changes occur, yes gravity is still gravity, yet because the rules are now different but with the same outcome as gravity many new doors become unlocked. sure gravity would still be but for all we know things we thought were impossible may suddenly be necessary. its funny though because it seems you cant even look far enough ahead into situations to realize these simple things. so im done here.

It's true, other ways to answer the same question could lead to more discoveries, but as you agreed, gravity will still remain gravity. An object on earth will still fall at the same rate due to gravity. That won't change just because the theory or idea changed. Electricity will still be utalized the same way it is today, if not more efficiently. The properties of electricity will still function the way they do no matter what we call it or how we describe it. Since we're able to make use of it, put what we've learned into practice what we've discovered, we can safley say we do know how such and such works. The physics of how a bicycle works are known to work they do for a fact, but then again we could design a different bicycle that uses your hands for locomotion, those gear's used may be in a different arrangment (different way to look at something), but the same end result of what we thought of a bicycle is still put into practice. So we do know for a fact how a bicycle works. Just an example. Even if a bad one.

your black and white fine line is annoying to say the least. that in order to be at peace with yourself you have to be non violent in all cases. i never once said the race was at peace, just that i was. i dont experience conflicts anymore like you do. peace isnt something everyone would have to work to. if you were truely advanced youd see the benefits of it all and wouldnt need to work toward this goal at all, it would be just by understanding that you benefit from it. peace on a global scale isnt a group action, its an individual action. you want to believe that everyone must work together to reach peace. everyone most work with themselves to reach inner peace. you cant have a peaceful race if they have no peace within themselves.

Actually, I just caught you in a lie. Your not at peace if your getting annoyed or angry. Those two feeling's are conflict feeling's. If anything, by your defenition, I'm more at peace here then you are. I'm niether angry, annoyed, or having any other conflicting feeling's toward's you or your views. But, you can't have a peacfull individual if that individual is experiencing conflict from it's enviroment. Just as I've shown of you. You claim to be at peace with yourself, yet your experiencing conflict within yourself. That's a contradiction. Hypocricy. Or what have you.

he funny part is that you dont even see that the connection of love and joy you make with those people close to you, are the connection you should be making with every person. not to mention all the above reasons were the same chemical reactions. thats it. its not emotionless, just that you dont experience stronger emotions for certian people. you experience it for all. and i didnt say you couldnt have kids, just that it wouldnt be for the same reasons. the reasons you listed are chemcial reactions that arent always there. reproduction isnt for your joy and pleasure. reproduction is to reproduce life. these people arent your toys, and you making a bunch of new lives is pointless. reproducing is fine, but over reproducting when you dont need to is selfish.

Your obviously not looking at it from the right prospective. People who find joy in having children, don't have children for the hell of it. They don't view they're children as play things. They have a joy of bringing new life to this world. They feel love for every child they have. For instance, the two children I have, I didn't have out of any particular NEED. I wanted to have children because I love children. I feel joy entertaining them, teaching them etc. There was no true reproductive instinct behind it. There was a want to have them out of my love and joy for them. As for it being selfish, not at all. Not only am I bringing new life into the world for other people to interact with, but by bringing that new life into the world, that life has the ability to experience thing's it wouldn't have if it were never born. Your view's of looking at life are cold, and uncarring. Alien to the way human's work. Life isn't a giant labratory. If I fail to make the connection of love with another human, you can thank my instinctual responses for that. You yourself have already technically stated your not making a connection of love with me. Your viewing me as arrogant, ignorant, annoying and aggravating. Your not being at peace with me, while I still retain my ability to be at peace with you. So who is more advanced here?

i cant name a race because life on this planet has been around long enough to be this advanced. its that simple, maybe lightyears away from us id bet there is, just not here.

If you cannot provide one example of society on this earth or off of it that has attained the ability to transcend it's emotions and instinctual repsonses both within and enviromentally, then you cannot say as a fact that this is achievable. You cannot state as a fact how such a society would function. You could theorize, but to state factually it's existance and function would be to kid youself. You've neither seen, nor experience such a society and you, yourself are far from ataining the level of peace to function in the society you described.

thats why i said its ending there, because you fail to listen at all, so i will let you believe you are right, yet let me remind you your world continuously kills off people, makes choices that ultimately arent beneficial and just pointless/stupid.

im not experiencing a conflict in me, its a conflict between some one who is aware of his own being to someone who believes his own being is just machine like and refuses to listen to anything else otherwise because he believe it is fact.

make no mistake mine is no fact, it is merely a better way then what we are at now. if you believe weve made advances in the past 500 years, your wrong. weve just developed tools to further show our ignorant destructive pointless "instincts" to everything around us. we have reached a long stand still because we put our faith in science, something that cant bring peace, only more efficient ways to show our lack of understanding.

i am done arguing, crystal was right, you dont really listen much at all.

EDIT: by the way, maybe we are such screw ups and so destructive because we care more about our emotions then about the outcomes of what will happen. we are more worried about if it will make use happy then if it will end up killing hundreds of people. but that is human ignorance for you.

but yea this conversation needs to end since im not learning anything from you, ive got news for you, ive already been to the ideas youve been at. the whole we arent anything but machines of nature and most of your ideas. yet in time i saw past them and moved on to something that was more beneficial to everyone, since everyone and thing is part of me and i am a part of it.

[edit on 8-2-2006 by grimreaper797]

Produkt likely has no answer to the following scientifically reproducible effects;

1. Kirlian Photography.

2. Recorded testimony in which NDE individuals describe details at a distance of which they could not have any knowledge of.

3. Weight differential between a dying person and a corpse.


I'd especially like to hear an explanation for Kirlian photography.

1) this was just a quick pick search mind you, I'm sure I could find a more detail explanation if you'd like.

www.findarticles.com...

A scientific explanation of these dramatic images is that they result from interactions between charged particles created by the electromagnetic field used to form the images. A 1976 Science article concluded that moisture is a principal determinant of the form and color of human Kirlian photographs.

It has also been noted that variations in a variety of factors, including the amount of pressure on the plate, the voltage and frequency, and the exposure time, moisture, and temperature, can all influence the images produced.

For these reasons, as well as claims of unreliability and a lack of research data supporting its use, Kirlian photography is not recognized as a legitimate diagnostic tool by the mainstream medical community.

2) A rather well written article on NDE's.

serendip.brynmawr.edu...

The understanding of neural relationships during NDE's has culminated in the ability to reproduce each phenomena in a controlled setting. It has been found that the intravenous administration of 50-100 mg of ketamine can safely reproduce all features of an NDE (2) and electrical stimulation of the right angular gyrus portion of the brain can safely reproduce an out of body experience (6). Scientific research has even explained why religion is emphasized during an NDE. Activation in the temporal lobe region, known as the "God Spot (7)" during an NDE is reported to stimulate religious themed thoughts (8). This research has major implications in the battle of science versus religion. It provides evidence that specific brain activity can create the perception of religion and divinity. If this is true than this brain activity can be turned off and in effect remove religion from our lives.

There's also an article somewhere on wired.com about experiment's conducted using electromagnetic fields that caused those influenced by those fields to think they saw/heard god or were abducted by aliens and a few other thing's, depending upon the subject's belief's. You should take a good look at it.

3) could you be abit more specific on this? I would imagine your talking about decomposition? A corpse does under go rigamortis, stiffens up and the fluids pretty much drain from the body, then softens up. Again, a more clearer explanation would allow me to look up exactly what your wanting an answer to.

[EDIT] if this wieght reduction is immediatly after death, I'd be interested in any scientific studies on it you could show me. I would although hazzard a guess that if this reduction is very very very small, it could be directly related to gasses escaping from the body upon death.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by Produkt]

Grim,

No, your ending the discussion because you've failed to validate any of the point's your trying to push. Your silly notion of eternal existance of you just because the atom continues on after your death hasn't been fully and adequatly explained. You've continued to not only ignore, but deny that the very condition's that make up the whole of you, of what you are, and what define's you no longer exist after death/decomposition. Yes, obviously the lowly atom continues on, but that one lowly atom isn't you. It's not a hard concept.

You go on about how I'm unwilling to accept I'm wrong despite my continuin acceptance that I could be wrong, along with the thousands upon thousands of other's who discovered the very thing's we use and take for granted today. Yet you will not deny your wrong in your way of thinking. Your the one dead set on thinking you've got it right. Your the one who has the mindset that your being will continue on in the lowly atom, yet you deny that all the charactistics no longer exist after death, that define who you are and shape who you are. I mean, awsome, the atom persists longer than we do, but that is the ATOM. Not you, not me. Again, not a hard concept to accept.

Stating that your idea's are not a fact, then continue to state in a factual manner that they are better is extremely contradictory. What evidence do you have that can show me that your way of thinking is better than the way an earthworm thinks? What evidence do you have that can show me your way of thinking is better than an extraterestrial living on another planet in a completley alien enviroment and society never before seen on this planet? So how can you state in a factual light that your way of thinking is better than my way of thinking? Truth is, you have no full knowledge of my way of thinking to even make such a statement.

Quiet the contrary. We do care about both the outcome's and the emotions. As I've continually tried showing you without effect. Yes, we understand the negative factors of using nuclear energy. We do need energy to power our electrical devices we've come to rely upon. So we initially developed a way to circumvent the hazards of working in and around a nuclear plant and a temporary waste disposal system that harms no living creature while we're working on more efficient ways, with alot of success now of dealing with that waste. Your continual denial of these facts are of no consequence that this is how it is.

Whereas I have been listening to you, and properly discussing your view against thousands of other that have discovered the thing's you use, you have not been listening. Not once have you adequatley tried to explain what your trying to say, nor provided any evidence for what your saying. Your whole atom lives forever, so we shall too is more of a religous view than a scientific view. I've shown how, yes we are nothing more than biological computers. This fact doesn't make us any less special. If anything it makes us very special, so as to look at what we are in a bad light would be nothing short of stupid.

All in all however, if you wish to end the discussion out of agravation, annoyance and conflicting feeling's. The I bid you farewell.

www.hado.com

so does this water have a chemical reaction to different types of vibrations? vibrations are energy mind you. this isnt some opinion, its a scientific study of how energy effects the way other things such as matter react, non living things responding to energy. you dont exist mentally...plain and simple...your whole mental state is made up of different vibrations.

it makes perfect sense, scientifically. the connection physically is obvious. mentally we may not even exist. we react just as the water does, the chemical reactions are just a by product of this. how hard is it for you to grip the fact dying is imaginary? those vibrations change wavelengths and change form and that thought process was just a product of it before it changed. science leans toward a unified theory where these strings of energy VIBRATE and make up all things because this is as close as we can get to the unified theory of the universe, scientific study of it shows it has causes different effects even on non living things shows the connection again.

im not going to argue with you about things you know so little about. until we start getting rid of radioactive materials to make them have 0 by product of waste with no harmful effects or dangers of world destruction, i will stand by my point. nuclear weapons came out of nuclear research, this alone shows stupidity of made and how he is uncapable of real thought.

i felt i provide you with those little bits of information so you wouldnt be left in the dark about how science is currently researching what im talkin about.

www.hado.com

so does this water have a chemical reaction to different types of vibrations? vibrations are energy mind you. this isnt some opinion, its a scientific study of how energy effects the way other things such as matter react, non living things responding to energy. you dont exist mentally...plain and simple...your whole mental state is made up of different vibrations.

Intresting site. Now repeat after me. Quack Quack.

www.hado.net...

A number of methods exist for photographing energy fields. Among them is Kirlian photography. This method uses high frequency electron streams to photograph the invisible energy fields radiating from all living/organic things. Through a Kirlian camera, the energy emanating from the fingertip shows the difference before and minutes after drinking Dr. Emoto’s Hexagonal water.

Here we have a website selling... water. With the claim that this "special" "miraculous" water has amazing benefit's no ordinary water has. This website's "proof" of the benefit's this water provide's is through kirlian photgraphy. If you'll take a look at my post above your's for the explanation behind kirlian photography you can readily see how this is a scam. Yes, many people can be suckered into scam's such as this. They make it sound convincing to the gullible. Kirlian photography can not reliably diagnose anything. As proven, many variable's can change the out come of this so called energy field around our bodies. Temperature. Moisture. Pressure of the plates. Volatage and frequency. You have to take into account variables such as these before you readily believe a website selling ... water. The molecule of water, H20 is the same in any bottled water. There's not magical properties behind this molecule. Our bodies do require water. Drinking it does make us feel better. The purer the water, the better, although it wouldn't hurt one bit to add in other chemicals our bodies need too. But that website you posted, is that of a quack trying to sell you ... bottled water.

[EDIT] For furthur information on how quacky your link is...

It state's here.

This water must be reorganized within the body in order to penetrate the cells. However, the smaller molecular structure of hexagonal water allows for faster transit through cellular membranes. This has been verified using Bioelectrical impedance analysis (BIA). Donald Mayfield, NMD, DOM, uses BIA and a variety of other methods to access the level of health in his patients. According to Dr. Mayfield, there is no question that hexagonally-structured water provides more rapid hydration

Have you ever looked up what BIA is? Well, neither have I, so I decided to. So let's take a look at BIA.

www.new-fitness.com...

Bioelectrical Impedance Analysis, or BIA, is considered one of the most exact and accessible methods of screening body fat.

...

Simply explained, BIA measures the impedance or resistance to the signal as it travels through the water that is found in muscle and fat. The more muscle a person has, the more water their body can hold. The greater the amount of water in a person's body, the easier it is for the current to pass through it. The more fat, the more resistance to the current. BIA is safe and it does not hurt. In fact, the signal used in body fat monitors can not be felt at all either by an adult or child.

I've also tried doing a search on google scholar, guess how many result's are turned for hexagonally-structured water. Zero. I did a regular search and I cannot for the life of me find one scientific study nor mention of hexagonally-structured water, BUT I can find ton's of other new age website's selling... you guessed it, bottled water.

it makes perfect sense, scientifically. the connection physically is obvious. mentally we may not even exist. we react just as the water does, the chemical reactions are just a by product of this. how hard is it for you to grip the fact dying is imaginary? those vibrations change wavelengths and change form and that thought process was just a product of it before it changed. science leans toward a unified theory where these strings of energy VIBRATE and make up all things because this is as close as we can get to the unified theory of the universe, scientific study of it shows it has causes different effects even on non living things shows the connection again.

You have to remember, the string theory has not been verified yet. We just recently achieved the ability to see quarks and such. We haven't been able to look at matter/energy on a smaller scale. As you keep stating about knowledge, we don't KNOW for a fact that all matter and energy is just vibrating strands of energy. There could very well be another, more plausible theory/discovery at some future point in time. What your describing, isn't even string theory related. All matter is affected by frequencies, light, sound, electromagnetic, etc. This doesn't have anything to do with string theory itself.

As for dying is imaginary. You have the audacity to claim that despite the discoveries made by thousands of people who have proven these thing's I'm telling you about? I've tried showing you the example of the self aware computer, that same example you wouldn't dare touch. Why not? Could it be that you have no explanation for a self aware computer to fit your model? You continually deny/ignore that the sum of who you are is based upon the shape those atom's arranged into, the genetic coding that created the cell's and directed your creation, the inherent instinctual and enviromental responses that shape how you think. You won't accept what's been proven, that our brains are electrochemical computer's. You won't explain how it is we survive after death when you take all those characteristic's that define us.

im not going to argue with you about things you know so little about. until we start getting rid of radioactive materials to make them have 0 by product of waste with no harmful effects or dangers of world destruction, i will stand by my point. nuclear weapons came out of nuclear research, this alone shows stupidity of made and how he is uncapable of real thought.

While I'll admit that I don't know a whole lot about the subject's I've discussed with you, atleast I've shown the capacity to admit that and have the capacity to direct you on the path using that information to learn more about it yourself. Your stance on nuclear power is a very narrowed viewpoint, one I'd hardly construe as capable of being advanced in any way whatsoever. As you've already shown that you are not, despite your thinking you are.

i felt i provide you with those little bits of information so you wouldnt be left in the dark about how science is currently researching what im talkin about.

If anything, I'm still left in the dark. Not only have you not shown me anything scientific at all, the one website you did post was that of a quack selling bottled water, and using kirlian photography to "prove" his water's benefit's. C'mon, I may be stupid, but I'm far from gullible.

[edit on 9-2-2006 by Produkt]

I don't know if these guys are full of #### or not, but I know entire fields of science are either being deliberately covered up, or research in them is being hindered. So if there are certain properties in water that have not been fully looked into or are being hidden from us, I can see why they wouldn't want us to know about them.