NEWS: Clemency Denied for Stanley "Tookie" Williams

Originally posted by 5Lostboy5

Originally posted by zappafan1


It's a shame he didn't have four lives, so as to properly pay that debt for each of those he murdered.

So you are saying basically if you murder you should be murdered .... I totally agree with this .. If you kill in Cold blood whether it be one or two Hundred people that you kill. You should be killed ???Or I say just cut there limbs off ... let's be crule like they are ?? I bet if you became Cruel and unjust the Cruel and Unjust would become something else ... =-) ...

You obviously do not understand the concept of "value of a life". The state did NOT murder poor Tookie. He sentenced himself by his acts and, as such, since he didn't have the nuts to execute himself, the state was put under the obligation to complete the sentence.
Tookie didn't inject anyone, he used a shotgun... on at least one person in the back (now there's a brave individual.... NOT) then joked about the gurgling sounds he made while he died. So, your 'murder for a murder' idea doesn't hold water.

An "eye for an eye" is just one of the things mentioned in the Old Testament we should go back to.

grimreaper797: it wasn't the witness.... it was ballistic evidence that hung him. And, again, he effectively 'killed' himself, and the state merely assisted him repay the social contract he agreed to when he murdered those people.

[edit on 13-12-2005 by zappafan1]

It is a rare Occasion to see a Man completly Change himself and turn his Life around when in Prison. And that is what Stanley "Tookie" Williams did. He wrote several Books, where he Preached the Black Youth to stay away from Urban Criminal - not to Follow his Footsteps, not to commit a Crime, not to go to Jail, not to end up like Him. He was Nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize! And isn't that the Poing of a Correctional Fascility - to Change a Man from his old and Evil Ways?

And yet, no Mercy for him.

I also think that Life in Prison would be a Punishment that fitted his Crime (since he claims he is Innocent). But, that is not the view that Z TERMINATOR Governer shares.

Maybe he still thinks its all a Movie.

THIS AIN'T HOLLYWOOD ARHNIE, THIS IS REAL LIFE!

Even if it is in Kalifornia...



[edit on 14/12/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by Souljah
to see a Man completly Change himself and turn his Life
around ... that is what Stanley "Tookie" Williams did.

Actually, he didn't. He got into serious trouble in prison and
he never apologized for the murders he committed. And yes
he did commit them. He laughed and laughed as he recounted
how much fun it was listening to those he had just shot gurgle
while they drown in their own blood. He never helped stop
others from being murdered or from being victims of crimes.
This was in his power to do so. He had information that could
have stopped others from dieing. He didn't help. So no, he
definately did not change completely. Not even a lot. Not
even much at all.

He wrote several Books

He wrote a couple of kids books telling them not to get
into gangs. They sold exactly 330 copies. This is admirable
but not not something that is worthy of overturning a jurys
verdict, and the courts, that said he deserved death.

He was Nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize!

So what? So was Hitler. So was Stalin.
nobelprize.org...
Heck, Arafat who was a notorious homosexual pedophile
rapist and multiplre murdering terrorist
and thief of millions of $$ from the Palestinians won it. The
Nobel Peace Prize isn't what it is made out to be.

isn't that the Poing of a Correctional Fascility
- to Change a Man from his old and Evil Ways?

Yes, but he wasn't in a Correctional Facility. He was on
death row. There was absolutely nothing in his sentence
that was open to 'correction'. His sentence was death.
THAT was the point of his incarceration. Death in a death
facility.

As was said earlier... His case didn't merit clemency. He
was an unrepentant murderer who caused even more
death and pain while he was in prison. He could have
stopped these things ... but he didn't cooperate and so
more people died.

I am against the death penalty. It needs to be changed.
However, according to the laws of the land as they are,
this man did not deserve clemency and he definately
was NOT a redeemed man who was sorry for his crimes
and who tried to stop other crimes. Not at all.



[edit on 12/14/2005 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Souljah
It is a rare Occasion to see a Man completly Change himself and turn his Life around when in Prison. And that is what Stanley "Tookie" Williams did. He wrote several Books, where he Preached the Black Youth to stay away from Urban Criminal - not to Follow his Footsteps, not to commit a Crime, not to go to Jail, not to end up like Him. He was Nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize! And isn't that the Poing of a Correctional Fascility - to Change a Man from his old and Evil Ways?

Tookie wasn't sent to prison to be rehabilitated. He was sentenced to death!

Originally posted by Souljah
And yet, no Mercy for him.

He showed no mercy to his victims but then again like I said above he was sentenced to death! It doesn't matter that he claims to be innocent. Majority of the people suspected of a crime claim to be innocent. Hell I got caught red handed fishing without a licsense and still claimed I was innocent. That is why we have trial by jury in this country. That is why you are innocent until proven guilty. That is why the State had to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he was guilty. This was done fairly and within the law of the State of California.

Originally posted by Souljah
I also think that Life in Prison would be a Punishment that fitted his Crime (since he claims he is Innocent). But, that is not the view that Z TERMINATOR Governer shares.

He was given a fair trial and found guilty by a jury of his peers. He also went through all the appeals and the verdict still stood. The Anold didn't
put him on death row, Tookie's own actions did! What you or anyone else thinks is a fitting punishment for the crime is not important. What is important is that he was given a fair trial and found guilty by the people of California. The verdict handed down was done so according to California State law. It is up the the citizens of California to take the death penalty off the law books and to them alone.

Originally posted by Souljah
Maybe he still thinks its all a Movie..

The Govenator did the only thing he could do given the circumstances. It is not his job to overrule verdicts handed down fairly by the courts. There was no new evidence to be considered, there was no remorse and there was nothing that changed the fact the man was sentenced to death for murdering four innocent people. He received a fair trial, he was found guilty and the sentence was carried out all according to California Law. Don't like the law then change it but there is no sense in attacking Anold. He didn't create the situation. Even the US Supreme Court refused to step in.

Originally posted by WHOFLUNGGUM
The Anold didn't put him on death row, Tookie's own actions did!

That's an extremely powerful (and truthful) statement.
Don't forget, Tookie had only himself to blame for where
he was and for what happened to him. He knew the
law. He know what his punishment could be. And yet
he murdered anyways. Arnold didn't put Tookie to death.
TOOKIE put himself to death. Personal responsibility.
Something Tookie never did ... take personal responsibility.

His trial was based on Circumstantial Evidence and the testimony of several witnesses, all of whom were facing a range of felony charges, including fraud, rape, murder and mutilation. Even the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals stated in a September 10, 2002, ruling that the witnesses in Stan’s case had "less-than-clean backgrounds and incentives to lie in order to obtain leniency from the state in either charging or sentencing."

There was physical evidence, but none of it pointed to Stan.

• Fingerprints were found at both crime scenes, but they were not Stan’s. These fingerprints have never been identified.
  
  
• A bloody boot print left near the victim at one of the crime scenes was not Stan’s. This boot print has never been identified.
  
  
• A shotgun shell found at that crime scene was said to be from a gun purchased by Stan five years earlier. But the gun was, in fact, found
  under the bed of two people – a husband and wife facing felony insurance fraud charges and who were also under investigation for
  murdering their own crime partner.
  
  
• The "Star" witness at Stan’s trial – a white man and longtime felon who was placed in a nearby cell while Stan awaited trial and was years later discovered to have been a paid police informant – also testified that Stan "volunteered" a confession to him. But nearly 20 years after Stan’s trial it was discovered that a Los Angeles police officer had left a copy of the police murder file involving Stan’s case in this informant’s cell for overnight study.

While on Death Row, Stan has written 9 highly-acclaimed children’s books that educate young people to AVOID gangs, crime and incarceration.

He has also worked to end gang violence through his peace protocol and Internet Project for Street Peace, an international peer mentoring program.

Stan has saved the lives of over 150,000 youth, as reported by
them, their parents, teachers and law enforcement officials in their emails to Stan.

Apology?

"Twenty-five years ago when I created the Crips youth gang with Raymond Lee Washington in South Central Los Angeles, I never imagined Crips membership would one day spread throughout California, would spread to much of the rest of the nation and to cities in South Africa, where Crips copycat gangs have formed. I also didn't expect the Crips to end up ruining the lives of so many young people, especially young black men who have hurt other young black men. Raymond was murdered in 1979. But if he were here, I believe he would be as troubled as I am by the Crips legacy.

So today I apologize to you all -- the children of America and South Africa -- who must cope every day with dangerous street gangs. I no longer participate in the so-called gangster lifestyle, and I deeply regret that I ever did.

As a contribution to the struggle to end child-on-child brutality and black-on-black brutality, I have written the Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence children's book series. My goal is to reach as many young minds as possible to warn you about the perils of a gang lifestyle.

I am no longer "dys-educated" (disease educated). I am no longer part of the problem. Thanks to the Almighty, I am no longer sleepwalking through life.

I pray that one day my apology will be accepted. I also pray that your suffering, caused by gang violence, will soon come to an end as more gang members wake up and stop hurting themselves and others.

I vow to spend the rest of my life working toward solutions.

Amani (Peace),

Stanley "Tookie" Williams, Surviving Crips Co-Founder, April 13, 1997"

Williams was reportedly nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize every year from 2001 to 2005; nominations came from Mario Fehr, a member of the Swiss Parliament; four times by Notre Dame de Namur University Philosophy and Religion Professor Phil Gasper; William Keach, a Brown University Professor of English Literature, nominated Williams for the Nobel Prize in Literature.

So,
Why exactly Couldn't his Punishment be Reduced to LIFE in Prison instead of DEATH Pentaly?

Originally posted by Souljah
His trial was based on Circumstantial Evidence and the testimony of several witnesses, all of whom were facing a range of felony charges, including fraud, rape, murder and mutilation. Even the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals stated in a September 10, 2002, ruling that the witnesses in Stan’s case had "less-than-clean backgrounds and incentives to lie in order to obtain leniency from the state in either charging or sentencing."

He had his day in court and that is why we have an automatic appeal process. He was found quilty by a jury of 12 Calfornia citizens that
made it's verdict based on the evidence presented. In a felony case
the prosecutor has to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the suspect
is guilty. If this is not done then it is the Judges responsiblity to over throw the verdict if (s)he feels the evidence does not support the verdict. The appeal process allows for the introduction of new evidence that would sway the orginal verdict. None of this happened!

Originally posted by Souljah
There was physical evidence, but none of it pointed to Stan.."

Please refer to previous answer!

Originally posted by Souljah
[While on Death Row.... .

Exactly, while on death row. He was sentenced to death!

Originally posted by Souljah
He has also worked to end gang violence through his peace protocol and Internet Project for Street Peace, an international peer mentoring program.
Stan has saved the lives of over 150,000 youth, as reported by
them, their parents, teachers and law enforcement officials in their emails to Stan.

Apology?.

Well that is probably the least the guy could do for co-founding the Crips to begin with. I am glad he made an attempt to help some kids but that doesn't excuse what he was in prison for in the first place. He was sentenced to death and the sentence was carried out. 20\20 hindsight
is a wonderful thing and everyone has it. If I were on death row and thought that writing a few books and helping kids would save my butt then I would try it too. Even if he had won the Nobel Peace Prize it doesn't change the fact that he was a convicted murderer sentenced to death.
Apology? Try apologizing to the family members off all the people that Tookie killed either directly or indirectly!

Originally posted by Souljah
Why exactly Couldn't his Punishment be Reduced to LIFE in Prison instead of DEATH Pentaly?

Because life in prison isn't the sentence that was passed down by a Court of Law in the State of California. Tookie got caught up in a web of his own weaving. There is no one to blame for his death but Tookie himself. There comes a time in every ones life when they have to accept responsiblity for thier own actions. How many books are the lives of his four victims worth?

"....While on Death Row, Stan has written 9 highly-acclaimed children’s books that educate young people to AVOID gangs, crime and incarceration".

His "best selling" book sold around 300+ copies, and a most sold exactly NONE.
The Nobel Peace Prize is a joke anymore, and has been for at least a decade. Ex-Pres. Mr. Peanut (Carter) won it for his "Agreed Framework" with N. Korea, and it was that same agreement that allowed for a (now) nulear N. Korea.
Carter isn't the only one who's received that "prize" by publishing junk.

While there are those who feel he redeemed himself, and will rest in peace, self-redemption means nothing. He will be judged after death (as will we all, depending on your belief). Tookie....... Burn, Baby Burn!!!

Actually, public hanging would be as good, or a better, deterrent. Notification of all known friends and family, etc.....





[edit on 14-12-2005 by zappafan1]

all the religion followers, the venegce and revenge attitudes you hold only further your blashpemy. its alright though, kill some one who speaks out on gang violence...the government doesnt want to get rid of these gangs anyway. poor killing the poor, black on black crime, its works out good for them. population is getting out of had, so i doubt they want the killings to stop anyway. gang violence works well for them, they can make them look like terrorists and further their war on terror. its a win win situation for them, just as long as the gangs arent near them they dont care.

keep the support of gang violence going guys, because murdering those who speak against it pretty much show it.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
its alright though, kill some one who speaks out on gang violence....

keep the support of gang violence going guys, because murdering those who speak against it pretty much show it.

Tookie had twenty-plus years to have his say. In my opinion, commuting the death sentence for anyone who can write a few books does more to support violence.

Tookie's dead.

i dont agree he should ever have been put to death. he should have been locked away for life without parole. not waste any money on the many autoappeals and letting him sit in a cell for the rest of his natural life. that would be a fit punishment for any killer. killing one man because he killed some one is primative, which is why even the bible has changed its ways. he shouldnt ever have been allowed on the streets again, but nor should he have died.

It was reported that the body of 'Tookie' was seen traveling south on Interstate 5 in a white hearse. A sign on the back read "California killed an innocent man" and a U.S. Flag was drapped over the coffin.

What right did they have to drape a U.S. Flag over his coffin? He never served in the military, he never really did anything for the country, and all the resulting badness of the Crips far outweighs the 'goodness' of his books (all 300 copies sold).

Glad he's gone, one down, far too many to go.

Originally posted by Souljah
Even the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals stated ...

Even the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals stated this week that
he was not due any clemency. They refused him.

has written 9 highly-acclaimed children’s books that

.. that sold 330 copies en total.

He has also worked to end gang violence through...

Refusing to report information about gang activities is NOT working
to end gang violence. He had information that could have saved lives.
He didn't help end gang violence at all. It was in his power to do so.
He didn't.

Stan has saved the lives of over 150,000 youth ...

As claimed by his supporters, however there is no evidence of this.
Considering that most gangers and kids in danger of becoming
street statistics hadn't heard of him until Hollyweird decided to
adopt him as their project ... that figure of 150,000 is highly inflated.

www.nzherald.co.nz...

Apology?

Yes, an apology. To the families of those he murdered. He laughed
as they gurgled and drown in their own blood from him shooting them.
In jail he retold how wonderful it sounded to him. He never apologized.

Williams was reportedly nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize
every year from 2001 to 2005

As we have said ... so what? Hitler was nominated. Stalin.
Arafat who raped young boys and stole hundreds of millions
from the Palestinians WON. Anyone can be nominated.
Anyone can win. The Nobel Peace Prize has become a joke.

Why exactly Couldn't his Punishment be Reduced
to LIFE in Prison instead of DEATH Pentaly?

Because the law, the jury, the courts, and the vast majority of
his peers - the American people, all said so. Because there
was NOTHING in his case that warrented the change. Nothing.

As I said, I'm against the death penalty. I'd like to see it changed.
However, considering the laws in America as they are, there was
nothing in this case to warrent a change to life in prison.

Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop
It was reported that the body of 'Tookie' was seen
... and a U.S. Flag was drapped over the coffin.

I hope to God this isn't true. Anyone have a link?
If this is true, I will be throwing up my breakfast so
everyone stand clear. Disgusting!

According to one report that I found, Williams was a Vietnam war combat veteran. I believe that despite his crimes, he still warrants credit for his service, if that service was honorable. I haven't found anything to the contrary. This issue has arisen before, but I believe that this is statutorily correct.

[edit on 2005/12/15 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by Souljah
It is a rare Occasion to see a Man completly Change himself and turn his Life around when in Prison. And that is what Stanley "Tookie" Williams did.

No, he didn’t. According to his interview with Democracy Now!, he didn’t start the Crips so they could be violent gang. He says he created them to get rid of violent gangs already in place. He intimates they were for, essentially, neighborhood protection.

AMY GOODMAN: Stanley Williams, can you talk about why you started the Crips?

STANLEY TOOKIE WILLIAMS: Well, I mean, I stated it in my memoir, Blue Rage, Black Redemption, that we started out – at least my intent was to, in a sense, address all of the so-called neighboring gangs in the area and to put, in a sense -- I thought I can cleanse the neighborhood of all these, you know, marauding gangs. But I was totally wrong. And eventually, we morphed into the monster we were addressing. Democracy Now!

A Compton version of the vigilante, Guardian Angels, if you will. So, with such a laudable goal as neighborhood defense, why would he possibly need to turn his life around? He clearly didn’t have any bad intentions for the Crips, so who could blame him for what they became?

What’s that you say, “what about the 4 murders”?

Well…

Again, according to his interview, he’s innocent. He was the victim of a huge racist plot against him.

STANLEY TOOKIE WILLIAMS: No, I am not culpable of those crimes. I have been stating that fact from the incipient, from the moment of my arrest. False arrest.

AMY GOODMAN: Why do you think the jury found you guilty?

STANLEY TOOKIE WILLIAMS: Oh, it was quite easy. It was a paradigm of racism. We are talking about prosecutorial misconduct. We are talking about exclusion of exculpatory evidence. We are talking about I.A.C., which is ineffective assistance of counsel. We are talking about biased jury selection, which results in an all-white jury. We’re talking about involuntary psychotherapic druggings, the misuse of jailhouse and government informants.
Democracy Now!

So obviously he didn’t do it. So again, why would he possibly need to turn his life around? Clearly this is an innocent, well-intentioned man who has been railroaded by the system. So why the atonement? It doesn’t make sense.

Unless, of course, he’s full of crap. Unless, of course, he’s guilty and just clutching straws. Imagine that! The founder of the CRIPS a murderer?!??!?! Shocking, I know. Hard to believe, I know.

And, he even dedicates his books to those who advocated violent social change (like you Souljah).

In addition, the governor noted that Williams dedicated his 1998 book "Life in Prison" to a list of figures that included the black militant George Jackson - "a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems."
Black News

Just so you know who George Jackson was, here’s a quick Wiki primer: Wiki George Jackon

Nice guy, huh? Tookie also dedicated books to Mumia Abu Jamal, a cop-killing, back-shooting scum bag, among other fine and not-so-fine folks.

Originally posted by Souljah
He wrote several Books, where he Preached the Black Youth to stay away from Urban Criminal - not to Follow his Footsteps, not to commit a Crime, not to go to Jail, not to end up like Him.

So what? Nobody read them.

The argument for commutation of Tookie's sentence centers on all the good work he has done since going to prison. The series of children's books he has written and his work to stop gang violence is proof of his redemption. His death, they say, will only serve to rob those youth currently in gangs or considering joining gangs, of hope. Witness that his supporters do not claim that Tookie is innocent of his crimes. They are not seeking that Williams be released, only that his sentence be commuted. Williams, however, has never admitted guilt. That little inconsistency suggests the great "inspirator" is not only an unrepentant murderer, but a liar as well.

The portrayal of Williams as some pied piper of peace for the gang community also holds very little water. A quick review of Book Scan shows the Tookie series of books have hardly been blockbusters. His top seller, "Gangs and Violence" has sold 330 books. Another book "Gangs and Wanting to Belong" sold exactly two copies. No one is reading his books, least of all his two sons, one of whom is serving time in San Quentin. The other was just arrested on charges of aggravated rape. Poor book sales are not reason to send someone to the execution chamber, but then Williams was not convicted of lackluster book sales. He was found guilty of shooting four innocent people in cold blood, a fact his supporters continue to forget.
Black News

If I write a book that nobody reads, should I be nominated for the Nobel prize too? Should I get a “get outta jail free” card? Of course not. Maybe that’s why they are almost all out of print. I checked on Amazon (you can too!). The only copies of his children’s books are $33-$84. How many kids do you think can afford that?

Originally posted by Souljah
He was Nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize! And isn't that the Poing of a Correctional Fascility - to Change a Man from his old and Evil Ways?

Again, so what? First, he didn’t win it. Second, here are some other notable Nobel candidates: Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro. Yay for the Nobel Prize! Maybe they all deserve clemency?

And it really depends on your beliefs about Prisons. I think they are for punishment; perhaps they are just too soft to do the job of rehabilitation.

Originally posted by Souljah
And yet, no Mercy for him.

Why? He did it. He had his appeals. He lost. The end.

Don’t believe me? Ask the courts. Tookie did for 24 years. The 9th Circuit Court upheld (several times). The California Supreme Court upheld. The US Supreme Court upheld.

Originally posted by Souljah
I also think that Life in Prison would be a Punishment that fitted his Crime (since he claims he is Innocent). But, that is not the view that Z TERMINATOR Governer shares.

Okay, first, Arnold didn’t convict him. He didn’t reject appeals. He simply upheld a sentence that has already been upheld numerous times before by numerous courts. Second, he's guilty.

Originally posted by Souljah
Maybe he still thinks its all a Movie.

THIS AIN'T HOLLYWOOD ARHNIE, THIS IS REAL LIFE!

That’s right! And in real life, if you kill 4 innocent people with a shotgun and get caught in a Death-Penalty State, you’re gonna die. Not like in a movie where ludicrous conspiracy theories from hacks in Hollywood and Crips and folks who love the underdog, even when he’s a savage killer, are all you need to set someone free (and don’t forget to throw in a stirring courtroom speech for good measure).

In short, it’s not surprising that you, Souljah, want to play pin-the-blame-on-the-Governator. You are this board’s biggest agitator for violent social change and violence against whitey and violence against the man, not to mention this board’s biggest agitator for forgiving or denying the misdeeds, crimes, and lies of terrorists, murderers, rioters, rapists, arsonists, and any violent non-white or non-American person out there.

There was never a doubt which way you leaned. I guess the only question is, when are you going to start blaming his victims too?

Edit: Censor circumvention.

[edit on 15-12-2005 by intrepid]

You have voted Hamburglar for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Way to tell it like it is.

DE

You nailed it. That was an excellent post.

Same here Hamburglar -

You have voted Hamburglar for the Way Above Top Secret award.
You have used all of your votes for this month.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
According to one report that I found, Williams was a
Vietnam war combat veteran.

ktla.trb.com...

I can't find anything on that. I have found info that he was born in
1953, he moved with his mother to California in 1959. That he was
in and out of Juvie Hall for causing trouble. He became a gangster
by 1970 and then he committed the famous murders in 1979.
That one of the men he murdered was an Army Veteran. And I
found that his son is in prison and has been causing problems
in prison just like his father did.

I can't find any info on Tookie Williams having served this country
in the military. Anyone know about this??

en.wikipedia.org...
This has some info about one of his disciples wanting
to take his cremated remains to Africa and have a 'Rosa Parks
Style' funeral for him. Gawd!

Williams will be cremated and his ashes will be sent to South
Africa for scattering. Becnel has made arrangements to receive Williams'
body and will be holding a funeral at a church in Los Angeles. Becnel said
that the funeral would be on the scale of Rosa Parks' recent funeral.

Interesting tidbit. ... what his namesake son is doing these days -
(the apple didn't fall far from the tree)

One of Stanley Williams' children, Stanley "Little Tookie" Williams, Jr.,
has also been convicted of murder. Little Tookie, a Neighborhood Crip,
was found guilty of shooting a twenty year-old woman to death in an alley
off Sunset Boulevard in Hollywood. Williams, Jr. was sentenced to sixteen
years in prison for second-degree murder.

[edit on 12/15/2005 by FlyersFan]