NEWS: Clemency Denied for Stanley "Tookie" Williams

I am still not sure he was guilty there are some major problems with the case and I find it shocking the 'Star Witness' to the event is now in prison for doing the same thing...maybe it is me but the whole case just stinks.

I think it would have been wiser to keep him alive, he could have spent the next 20+ years helping the Government. He had the power to get the Bloods and Crips to stick to the amnesty they are now on and with him gone there is a real risk this could start up again, amongst the possible fact tonight more problems could occur - let us all hope they listen to him and do not riot.

It is a shame, because children will listen to him over the rap artists and the police officers. He lived the gang-life, he was one of the founders and to turn around and speak out against it can really help to get people to question their involvement.

Originally posted by Odium
I am still not sure he was guilty there are some major problems with the case and I find it shocking the 'Star Witness' to the event is now in prison for doing the same thing...maybe it is me but the whole case just stinks.

I think it would have been wiser to keep him alive, he could have spent the next 20+ years helping the Government. He had the power to get the Bloods and Crips to stick to the amnesty they are now on and with him gone there is a real risk this could start up again, amongst the possible fact tonight more problems could occur - let us all hope they listen to him and do not riot.

It is a shame, because children will listen to him over the rap artists and the police officers. He lived the gang-life, he was one of the founders and to turn around and speak out against it can really help to get people to question their involvement.

I don't think it matters where the "star witness" is now or what he's done since then. Obviously he was credible enough for the prosecution, the judge and the jury to believe him. That being said, even if he wasn't credible there is still all the other overwhelming evidence relating to Williams' involvement in those murders. And if the credibility of this "star witness" you speak of is really an issue, then that is the defense attorneys' job to attack his credibility in front of the jury.

Sure, he could have spent the next 20 years helping the government. But unfortunately he hasn't spent the last 25 years helping them, so what makes you think he'd start now? He has done absolutely nothing to help the government bring other gang members to justice. More murders have been committed by the gang this monster created than have been committed by the Mafia! His refusal to aid our government in putting criminal gang murderers behind bars, his refusal to accept responsibility for his brutal crimes and to seek forgiveness for them are reason enough for him being granted clemency. The governor made the right choice because he looked at ALL the facts- something most of you have either refused to do or haven't been able to do. I'm sure he saw the brutal crime scene photographs that I linked in an earlier post as well. If you saw the nature of this man's crimes you would want him executed, too. They were not crimes of passion or crimes of circumstance. It was cold-blooded, premeditated slaying of innocent people of which he bragged and laughed about after the fact.

And do you honestly believe that children would listen to this guy over rap artists? Give me a break. Williams has sold a combined 600 books, tops. These thug rap artists have sold hundreds of millions of albums. It's their posters and their t-shirts that our children are wearing. It's their rap lyrics about shooting cops and nailing hoes that inner city youth are reciting, not the words of the "reformed" Tookie Williams. I think you are truly naive if you believe what you wrote in your last paragraph. And it's almost comical for me to see these thug rappers who preach violence and glorify drug use at our children's expense, just to make a buck, come to the aid of this killer. They should be more concerned about their effect on society than sparing the life of this murderer.

Thankfully, even after 2 1/2 decades justice was able to prevail. And the argument that it costs more to execute someone than it does to imprison them for life is a moot point. The only reason it costs more to execute someone is because of the long and drawn out appeals process which we afford these guilty murderers because of people like you and your lack of faith in our criminal justice system and death penalty. These people should be given a year, maybe two years TOPS, to exhaust their appeals before being sentenced to death. Punishment needs to be swift and it needs to be severe if the death penalty can ever be used as a deterrant again. Unfortunately, the anti-death penalty crowd have basically neutered the effect that the death penalty should have on preventing future murders. There definitely needs to be a change! It's a sad day in America when the perpetrators of brutal murder are afforded more rights than the victims and the victims' families are.

Originally posted by Odium
It is a shame, because children will listen to him over the rap artists and the police officers. He lived the gang-life, he was one of the founders and to turn around and speak out against it can really help to get people to question their involvement.

The problem though is that he was not put in prison so he could be rehabilitated. He was sentenced to death. A sentence that has taken way
to long to be carried out. It doesn't matter how many books he wrote. I am sure that Jefrey Dalmer could have written a childrens book as well. He never once showed any remorse for his actions. Suppose he didn't commit the murders he was convicted off. This guy co-founded a violent street gang that is responsible for numerous murders, rapes, drugs and other mayhelm. He was given an opportunity to cooperate with the authorities to bring others to justice and he refused. This was not an innocent man put to death here! He answered for this actions here on earth and now he has to answer to a higher authority. 'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'.

Why would they put someone in Prison for 20 years ??? And then kill him ?? this makes no sense whatsoever ... ... read this ... THE REAL DISCUSSION ...

The only thing I really have to say to this thread ... is Woujld you rat on your Brothers ?? I would never .. no matter what ... It is my brother. If you would you have alot to learn.

You will never truly have a brother is the even harder TRUTH ..

There's been a lot of talk about how this murderer "turned" his life around in prison and became an anti-gang activist by writing "children's books?" to redeem himself for the crimes he committed.

Bottom line is: I don't buy it!

He cold-bloodedly killed four people and he should be executed for this. It's the least that can be done for his behavior.

The least that a civilized society can do to prevent future cold blooded murders is to execute all killers and let those who think about joining gangs and living a violent life-style know they'll die.

Rasputin13, Alfred Coward was given immunity from presecution... the defence tried to argue that he was involved in the murder and the Judge in the first case had it stricken from the record.

He was convicted on this mans testimony, who claimed the attack made him so ill he threw up yet he was able to do the same action a few years later. I am sorry but this is highly suspect.

He sold the others out to save himself.

Tony Sims was given information on what was said in the Williams trial to save himself from the death sentence.

The only two people, who could verify if he was the killer did it to get off or to get a lesser prison sentence. To me that sounds dodgy...let alone Alfred Coward said two guns were taken by Williams to do the robbery. Claiming Tookie was the one who shot them, while he had the other.

To me, this evidence isn't overly convincing.

He was a leader in a game that was killing people .. I am sure he has been involved in killing people since then .. Whether it be in or out of the Cell .. that contains him ...

State murder for murder doesn't solve a problem, it becomes the problem. Taken one's life for taking another solves nothing, its not fixing nothing. Its joining the problem.

You are all so wrong .. buddy ... How many people commit murder again after commiting murder the first time .. if they get out ... about 45 % !!!! ... This would save that many people ... =-) ... FIRST OF ALL .... Second of all ... It would stop alot of people from ... just thinking that they are in a gang and are going to be well taken care of ... when they get in jail ... Because of Big Borther .... watching out for them ... Because they Sacrificed themselves .. for the bigger ... person in the gang .. most of the time it is the Texas Syndicate ... or MM .... anyways ... These are where the real problems lie in gangs ... Not in the Crips or the Bloods ... Althouhg these people do have thier own problems ..Anyways .... CHOP a thieves hand off .. see how many times he steals again .... We should have held these rules .. If they steal once they will steal again ... It is instilled in them ... and you better believe if you get them .. it is not thier first time to steal ....

Originally posted by grimreaper797
en.wikipedia.org...
hes definately one of them that should have gotten it.

So that is your excuse not to have Tookie executed? Dalhmer received life for murdering 4 people so Tookie who murdered 4 and found a street gang which has murdered probably hundreds of civilians and law enforcement and maimed thousands more should be granted clemency?

i guess williams only real mistake was doing the crime in the wrong state hmm?

What kind of sick -edit obscenity- are you? He murdered 4 people, at least! That was his mistake, and his fault.

well einstiens finds in physics led to the nuclear bomb...should he have been executed for the decisions of others made by using that bomb?

WTF are you talking about? Tookie didn't invent a shotgun, HE USED A SHOTGUN AGAINST 4 PEOPLE! Blah. Einstein DID NOT work on the atomic bomb. His only contribution was a formula for determining energy. ANd he did not use the bomb. There is a difference.

Mod edit:
Do Not bypass censors or attack fellow members.



[edit on 13-12-2005 by parrhesia]

Originally posted by Frosty

Originally posted by grimreaper797
en.wikipedia.org...
hes definately one of them that should have gotten it.

So that is your excuse not to have Tookie executed? Dalhmer received life for murdering 4 people so Tookie who murdered 4 and found a street gang which has murdered probably hundreds of civilians and law enforcement and maimed thousands more should be granted clemency?

i guess williams only real mistake was doing the crime in the wrong state hmm?

What kind of sick -edit obscenity you? He murdered 4 people, at least! That was his mistake, and his fault.

what hapened to dahmer in prison was a lot worse than what happened to tookie. bad example.
I'm sure you can find 100's of exapmples of people that did more, and got less of a punishment, but don't forget, each state has its own laws.

PS - don't mess around in texas, they'll snuff you for speeding !

Mod edit to adjust quote.

[edit on 13-12-2005 by parrhesia]

Originally posted by TheShroudOfMemphis
It's also CHEAPER to keep a man in prison for life than it is to kill them so if it's purely for money then that's no excuse either. Very easy information to look up.

That's a garbage, manufactured statistic and you know it.

Had you wanted to tell the truth rather than a half truth, what you should have written is this:

"It is CHEAPER in the United States to keep a man in prison for life, affording him no special appeals and providing no special care than it is to execute a man after first having bankrolled millions of dollars worth of appeals and paid for numerous defenders before actually throwing the switch."

Let's be fair, Shroud, execution is MUCH cheaper (ask the Chinese). It's the state-funded appeals and defenses that are expensive. And as long as we're being fair, we should point out that it is not appropriate to force the state (through various lobbying efforts over the years) to spend a ridiculous amount of money for a ridiculous amount of appeals, and then claim that the death penalty is too expensive.

That's so close to begging the question, and it certainly isn't an apples to apples comparison.

OMG ... Someone has common Sense in this thread ? WoW ... I am speechless ... ... Oh yeah .. Who said it cost more to Kill then to keep ??? What the heck ... Trying to hold back and not get a Mod Edit lol ... Gotta love those ... MODERATORS

Originally posted by infinite
State murder for murder doesn't solve a problem, it becomes the problem. Taken one's life for taking another solves nothing, its not fixing nothing. Its joining the problem.

I posted this earlier, but what you refuse to understand is that the death penalty was put in place in the hope that it will not have to be used. Any given society puts a price on what a life is worth. It's as simple as that.

There will always be those who murder for whatever reason. If the death penalty was being boiled in oil, there will be those who will take that risk.... for whatever reason is agreeable to them

Tookie unmercifully killed four people. In doing so he (figuratively) signed a social contract to trade his life for those he killed. He felt that whatever gains he made (in one case, $123.00) was worth the risk.

He racked up a debt to society, and it fell upon him to pay that debt.
As mentioned, it is not "state murder". Tookie placed the possible sentence upon himself and, since he didn't have the balls to inject himself, that placed the burden upon the state to carry out the execution.

It's a shame he didn't have four lives, so as to properly pay that debt for each of those he murdered.

Originally posted by Odium
Rasputin13, Alfred Coward was given immunity from presecution... the defence tried to argue that he was involved in the murder and the Judge in the first case had it stricken from the record.

He was convicted on this mans testimony, who claimed the attack made him so ill he threw up yet he was able to do the same action a few years later. I am sorry but this is highly suspect.

He sold the others out to save himself.

Tony Sims was given information on what was said in the Williams trial to save himself from the death sentence.

The only two people, who could verify if he was the killer did it to get off or to get a lesser prison sentence. To me that sounds dodgy...let alone Alfred Coward said two guns were taken by Williams to do the robbery. Claiming Tookie was the one who shot them, while he had the other.

To me, this evidence isn't overly convincing.

Hey..... I agree with you!!! Turning states evidence absolves way too many people in way too many cases.
Actually, it was the ballistic evidence that proved he was the one who commited the murders.

Originally posted by zappafan1


It's a shame he didn't have four lives, so as to properly pay that debt for each of those he murdered.

So you are saying basically if you murder you should be murdered .... I totally agree with this .. If you kill in Cold blood whether it be one or two Hundred people that you kill. You should be killed ???Or I say just cut there limbs off ... let's be crule like they are ?? I bet if you became Cruel and unjust the Cruel and Unjust would become something else ... =-) ...

Originally posted by 5Lostboy5
is Woujld you rat on your Brothers ?? I would never ..
no matter what ... It is my brother.

Tookie wasn't asked to 'rat on his brothers'. He was asked to
show that he really has turned his back on crime and he was
asked to help STOP CRIMES. He refused. He could have saved
lives. He could have saved people from committing crimes. He
could have stopped theft, murder, violence. But he refused to
help the police stop the Crips. This is proof that he really didn't
reform.

Also - the Crips aren't his 'brothers'. They are fellow criminals
but they are not his 'brothers'.

Also, as far as you saying that you wouldn't 'rat on your brothers',
then I guess you'd rather allow family members to go out and murder
rather than stop them from killing others and killing their own souls
through murder? That's not being a good steward of your brother
or anyone else for that matter. You wouldn't be doing them any
good.

Originally posted by Odium
Rasputin13, Alfred Coward was given immunity from presecution... the defence tried to argue that he was involved in the murder and the Judge in the first case had it stricken from the record.

He was convicted on this mans testimony, who claimed the attack made him so ill he threw up yet he was able to do the same action a few years later. I am sorry but this is highly suspect.

He sold the others out to save himself.

Tony Sims was given information on what was said in the Williams trial to save himself from the death sentence.

The only two people, who could verify if he was the killer did it to get off or to get a lesser prison sentence. To me that sounds dodgy...let alone Alfred Coward said two guns were taken by Williams to do the robbery. Claiming Tookie was the one who shot them, while he had the other.

To me, this evidence isn't overly convincing.

Once again it is the job of the defense to challenge the credibility of government witnesses. Obviously there wasn't enough evidence in the judge's opinion to implicate the witness in the crime. And how would Williams know that this man was at the crime scene if he himself claimed that he didn't commit the crime to begin with?

The fact of the matter is that prosecutors routinely rely on accomplice testimony and testimony given in exchange for immunity, reduction in sentence terms, and other things. That doesn't necessarily make the testimony fabricated. It is up to the defense to challenge the witness' credibility and to make the jury aware that the witness has received something in exchange for his/her testimony. That being said, it's already been stated in another post that Williams was convicted largely as a result of ballistic evidence and not the testimony of those two men, so your point would be moot.

You're also ignoring the fact that accomplice testimony is not allowed in court unless it can be corroborated. Obviously there was more evidence proving Williams involvement in these brutal murders than just the word of a couple gang bangers. Your comment about the witness claiming that he "threw up" as a result of seeing Williams murder those innocent people, only to commit the same crime later is disingenuous at best. If you saw the crime scene photographs that I linked, especially the last one showing the young Asian woman's head nearly blown off from a shotgun blast, then you can understand how that would make someone with a weak stomach throw up. That doesn't mean that the same person wouldn't be able to commit a murder under entirely different circumstances and not be sick, such as a drive-by, strangulation, beating, or even a 9mm to the back of the head. But a shotgun murder is particularly gruesome.

Whether you want to believe it or not the word of a criminal with questionable character will rarely ever put someone away, let alone have them sentenced to death, without being accompanied by good forensic and/or circumstantial evidence. Ultimately it is up to the jury to decide whether a witness is lying for their own personal gain or has simply agreed to cooperate and tell the truth in exchange for something. And that, my friend, is the way it should be. Unless you want to eliminate jury trials all together? Remember that without Sammy "the Bull" Gravano, who is an undisputed piece of slimy trash, countless mob bosses (including the infamous "Teflon Don" John Gotti) wouldn't have been thrown in prison for life. If I remember correctly, Gravano was given a few years for more than a dozen murders which he committed. And despite the sweet deal that he was given, he went up there and told the truth and convinced the jury of what he had to say. So while I agree in general that rewarding witnesses can sometimes be a bad thing and can promote lying, these people's stories must still match with the evidence and the circumstances of the crime(s) they are testifying about. A prosecutor will never put a scumbag on the stand unless he himself believes the person and can corroborate most or all of what that witness testifies to.

Originally posted by ImJaded
Let the riots begin!!!

The streets seem to have been noticeably serene despite the many predictions to the contrary.

However, the execution process didn't go quite as smoothly as "Tookie" would have liked. It took about twenty minutes for technicians to find a vein in William's left arm. Several times he expressed his frustration by raising his head and, by some accounts, looking at the witnesses in order to "stare down" the witnessess.




[edit on 2005/12/13 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by 5Lostboy5
is Woujld you rat on your Brothers ?? I would never ..
no matter what ... It is my brother.

Tookie wasn't asked to 'rat on his brothers'. He was asked to
show that he really has turned his back on crime and he was
asked to help STOP CRIMES. He refused. He could have saved
lives. He could have saved people from committing crimes. He
could have stopped theft, murder, violence. But he refused to
help the police stop the Crips. This is proof that he really didn't
reform.

You got to be JOKING right ???? If he would have told them some of the things that he could have told them .... Like what ??? Where his friends lived ??? or Where his Crew Hung out ? Then what you think he was going to set them up ??? Nah, they wouldn't listen to him .. They would just laugh at him ... LoL ... Just like they laugh at his Childrens Books. ..