Hidden Agenda behind Inquisition; Censoring Scriptures via Murder

"the History of the Church" by Dorset Books finds the first instance of the Church seizing scriptures & putting the owners to death documented by Eusebius in 325AD. So besides being persecuted by Romans & Baalists, & rejected by pharisees, early Christians had the official church after them if they used writings not officially approved.

This explains why the Dead Sea scrolls were hidden at Qumran, and another different collection hidden at Nag Hammadi Egypt. Before we label those unfavorably as heresy, look at the fact that the book of Jasher is quoted favorably twice in the Old Testament, but not included in the Catholic decided Canon. There are 2 known versions of it, one is missing the key info that explains 1 Timothy 1:20 & 1 Corinthians 5:5, the other is a secret of the Rosicrucian secret society, which is historically connect to freemasonry, so, don't join.

The Jesuit Inquisition lasted hundreds of years and killed millions from Russia to the USA & down to the Balkans. The entire Cathar religion was exterminated, with their last stand in the French Pyrennes mountain fortress that still sits in ruins. Cathars were also in the quest for the Holy Grail, as gnostic Christians. The Scriptures they used were all seized & deposited in the Vatican catacomb archives.

The Bogomil religion was also exterminated completely, & their Scriptures seized & stored also, while there was none left to deny the rumors spread by the Church about them. 900,000 Protestant Reformationists were also killed by Jesuit Inquisitioners.

So, the "witch-hunt Inquisition" story is a cover story for a seriously ruthless agenda. Nothing I've found in any excluded scriptures could justify mass murders, that's for sure. But some scriptures are still not available to even read & discern about.

Nag Hammadi Library has fragments of the Dialogue of the Saviour, supposedly written by Christ himself. Most of it is missing due to scroll damages. The Vatican SURELY has multiple copies of it, & could supply the many missing words, but they ignore its' existence. Isn't that anti-Christ? 1 John 2:18-19, & John 16:2-3, & 2 Timothy 3:12. I don't trust mass murderers to decide what I can read & believe.

The late (likely murdered) Father Malachi Martin revealed a masonic Order within the Jesuits in his book "The Keys of His Blood"-page 472. He was a Vatican attache'. In an interview with www.artbell.com... he exposed their murder rituals of initiation to 33. See www.infowars.com... about the murder rituals at Bohemian Grove, of the Moloch/Baal antireligion practiced by VIPs surely freemasons & B'nai B'rith (which was founded by Rothschild).

Research "The Heliand", a Saxon ancient Bible with the New Testament section titled CHRIST AND SATAN. Last I checked it's only available in ancient Saxon language, still.
Some preInquisition works can only be read at Oxford Bodellian Library, with clearance, like the Junius 2, which either also has the NT titled Christ and Satan, or I was mistaken about the Heliand, I see in my notes.

I've found word tampering in the newer Bibles & reject them. KJV & Latin Vulgate, and the Geneva Bible are best. The Book of Zerubabel is much like Revelations, but hard to find, & much older.

I get the big picture of what's the secret, though; Lucifer (meaning lightbearer), whose name is stricken from newer Bibles in Isaiah 14:12.

Freemason Anton LaVey founded the Church of Satan & wrote the so called "Satanic Bible", which promoted murder rituals using Christian babyfat candles. He invented so called Satanic rituals based on the murder rituals of Moloch/Baalism. There are no ancient rituals in the name of Satan.

Freemason Aliester Crowley also promoted abomination rituals and an unBiblical image of Satan, who is predicted to be here in Rev 12:12, at the end times as is Lucifer. That's the motive for a freemason frame. They perform Baalist rituals at Bohemian Grove etc, NOT Lucifer or Satan rituals, so think about that. I heard on the radio that Crowley was found in his locked room torn to shreds mysteriousy. Perhaps the real Satan of Jude 1:9 & Job 1:6 or the supernatural got him.

Freemason were started by Knights Templars, who began with the Crusades, killing all around any claimed sites. Some say it goes back farther, & yes, the Bible & Baal of Babylon have been at war more than a few thousand years. Elijah slew 450 prophets of Baal, & the Lord blessed Jehu for killing all the Baalists in Israel. David & Sampson killed Baalist murder ritualists also.

Old freemason rules require infiltration into all religions by all members. It worked. Their oaths of secrecy are enforced ruthlessly. This is what's behind the conspiracy of secrets of the Inquisition & lost scriptures. It is the "whore of Babylon" in Rev 17 & 18, that rules over kings and drinks the blood of martyrs, under the masonic UN flag with 33 divisions to the earth.

www.ralphepperson.com...
www.williamcooper.com...
www.ancientmanuscripts.com...
www.freemasonrywatch.org...
www.ancientwisdomtours.com...
www.earlychristianwritings.com...

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
"the History of the Church" by Dorset Books finds the first instance of the Church seizing scriptures & putting the owners to death documented by Eusebius in 325AD.

Where specifically does Eusebius say this?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
This explains why the Dead Sea scrolls were hidden at Qumran,

The DSS predate christianity, therefore they pre-date christian persecution, certainly they predeate 325 AD.

the other is a secret of the Rosicrucian secret society,

This group didn't even exist until a relatively modern era

which is historically connect to freemasonry, so, don't join

There is no connection between the fictional society orignally published in works like the FAMA and freemasonry, tho surely some of the later copy-cat Rosicurians are freemasons.

The Jesuit Inquisition lasted hundreds of years and killed millions from Russia to the USA

The inquisition was never in the US nor Russia.

The entire Cathar religion was exterminated

Not by the inquisition certainly.

mountain fortress that still sits in ruins.

Intersting that the Cathars never said anything of the sorts. No one was looking for the Holy Grail in those days, only later with the knightly romances does the concern even show up.

The Scriptures they used were all seized & deposited in the Vatican catacomb archives.

What evidence supports this?

Nag Hammadi Library has fragments of the Dialogue of the Saviour, supposedly written by Christ himself.

These are the later egyptian texts no? Why beleive that they were written by jesus at all?

The Vatican SURELY has multiple copies of it

Why??

Research "The Heliand", a Saxon ancient Bible with the New Testament section titled CHRIST AND SATAN

So a tribe of german barbarians had a book about jesus and the devil. So what? Why think its at all authentic or more representative of christianity than that practiced by the people who were around for the apostles and early christian community? The shamanistic peoples of siberia also have stories about jesus and the devil as his brother, and strangely enough they do stuff that happened in the myths of these people before they were christianized. But you are saying that this is more authentic??? Without ever having read the saxon document too?

I've found word tampering in the newer Bibles & reject them. KJV & Latin Vulgate, and the Geneva Bible are best

The KJV is widely recognized as being extremely un-authentic, or at least having massive 'word tampering' too.

based on the murder rituals of Moloch/Baalism

Lavey wasn't, from what I understand, an actual, regular, freemason. As far as baal or moloch, the only record of their rituals that I am familiar with is.....the bible.

They perform Baalist rituals at Bohemian Grove etc, NOT Lucifer or Satan rituals, so think about that.

The Bohemian Club and the Freemasons are two seperate groups.

I heard on the radio that Crowley was found in his locked room torn to shreds mysteriousy.

And you never looked into it further??

Freemason were started by Knights Templars,

This is extremely unlikely and the evidence does not support it. What evidence are you basing this on?

who began with the Crusades, killing all around any claimed sites.

They were soldiers, sure, but they didn't do this. They were infact able to get along peacefully with the non christians around them.

Old freemason rules require infiltration into all religions by all members

Please provide the supporting documents for this.

Their oaths of secrecy are enforced ruthlessly.

Again, present some sort of information to support this.

that rules over kings and drinks the blood of martyrs, under the masonic UN flag with 33 divisions to the earth.

The UN flag is simply a picture of the world and laurel wreathes, thats hardly masonic.

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[edit on 16/9/2005 by Mirthful Me]

--------------------------------------------------------------- #1: In the Dead Sea scrolls is the "Ascension of Isaiah" which is considered "Christian Aprocryphal apocalypse writing, according to "The Other Bible" by Harper/Collins books. Nag Hammadi scrolls also predate 325AD. I also pointed out that Romans were hunting them, as Saul before he became Paul did for them. And pharisees were hostile enough to pay 30 pieces of silver for the death of Christ. Nag Hammadi was post Christ, surely. The point is the Church got with the persecution by subversion. Dead Sea scrolls were hidden because of danger, like Nag Hammadi scrolls. You're nitpicking.
#2: www.truthquestonline.info has the historic evidence about Rosicrucians connection to freemasonry that you say is a
lie. I know a Rosicrucian/freemason.

#3: You say the Inquisition was never in the USA, but the Salem witch trials were in the USA. Another false claim by a moderator here. & the Inquisition WAS also in Russia.

#4: I suggest you research before making these claims that I lie about everything. The Cathar & Bogomil religions became extinct during the Inquisition via murder sponsored by Jesuit control.

#5: What evidence? 7 miles of underground catacombs full of old scrolls & wood cover books that are the Vatican archives. The writings were seized, not donated. I wouldn't bother to answer you, except that your denials call me a liar on every point, without any evidence otherwise.

#6: Why believe it was written by Jesus? Because Christ could read & write scriptures, as the tradition of prophets. WHY NOT be allowed to discern for ourselves IF Christ wrote it? We're not at liberty to read it all. Dialogue of the Saviour is CLAIMED to be Christ writing, & what I can see of it, I see no reason to say it isn't...do you? There's also other books claimed to be by Christ that aren't in the Bible, but are available in recent times to at least read. It was in the collection because it was taken seriously.

#7: You called Saxon Christians "German barbarians", seeing my name is German. I reckon that's a slur. Consider me reporting you to you, moderator! The point about the Heliand is that, like the "Dialogue", the public isn't allowed to know what it says, which is suspect here. You shouldn't claim it's "shamanic" without ANY evidence, should you? Don't reply to me anymore, moderator! I'll consider it harrassment.

#8: KJV is a 1611AD post Inquisition version & is NOT the most accurate wording, I acknowledge. Latin Vulgate IS according to a Hebrew translations scholar interviewed by George Noory, and I personally find it's best for science/Bible discussions.

#9: Google up the altar of Moloch that still stands near Carthage Tunisia, where children & adults were burned to death to terrorize people into compliance with Baalists publically. Psalm 137:8-9 KJV or 136:8-9 other versions is about avenging the Babylonian Baalist rituals of child murders also. Don't tell me the net doesn't have any history of Baalism & Molech rituals.

#10: who cares if Crowley die from supernatural causes? I'm no fan of his.

#11: www.truthquestonline.info has the history of the Knights Templars & Freemasons & Jesuits & Holy Grail & Rosicrucians & Crusades all at one site. Where's your evidence I'm wrong? Don't answer my threads anymore with your uninformed denials without evidence.

#12: I presume you're a freemason as your motive for disputing everything I say without contrary evidence. I checked out a library book of the rules of freemasonry, put out by freemasons for my info. I forget the title now, but not the rules. For evidence that rules of secrecy are indeed enforced, Google "Captain William Morgan" & his abduction after writing a book exposing below 33rd rituals of freemasonry. Bush & Kerry both admit to belonging to the masonic "Order of Death" a.k.a. Skull & Bones, but neither will say anything about the Illuminati founded Order. I've been threatened repeatedly to die before an audience of masons. That's because I expose stuff like KKK being founded by former top US freemason Albert Pike, & the Cosa Nostra mafia being founded by freemason Mazzini. Just the facts is enough to condemn them.

You want proof the UN is mason controlled. www.ralphepperson.com is a historian who was supplied many of his facts about freemasons by 33rds. The "G" shaped UN conference tables mean what? The 33 divisions of the UN world means what? The 13 leave wreaths are the ruling Illuminati clans-"Bloodlines of the Illuminati" by Fritz Springmeier.

The blood red masonic Fez hats commemorate the extermination of about 50,000 Christians at Fez Morocco around 800AD (Epperson). The Arabic sword & symbols are Baalist.

Let's know the freemasons by their fruits at the UN, then; Pol Pot exterminated 3-6 million Cambodians with CIA backing & was never charged. Pinochet was excused for mass murder with CIA backing due to old age, they said. Sharon got off the hook about ordering the Shabra/Shatilla refugee camp massacres citing diplomatic immunity. UN ignores the illegal invasions that use depleted uranium munitions on civilian areas, along with cluster bombs & showed patience & weakness about the depopulation of Darfur. UN investigators into the Rwanda massacre were discovered to include suspects, who could get info on witnesses, endangering them. The rich Illuminati clans control freemasonry & the world. Rothschild founded B'nai B'rith, Rockefeller owns the medical industry, Duponts, etc.

Freemasons are the evilest people I've ever met.

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[edit on 16/9/2005 by Mirthful Me]

Supporting relevant statements in "History of the Church" are on pages 180 & 185 regarding scriptures being subtracted by jews and Christians, before Eusebius' time. Reference to "heretics" put to death is page 221, of various "heresies". An imperial decree orders churches destroyed along with scriptures on page 330.

I made the article too short, for brevity. I researched the Inquisition the old fashioned way, spending days at the Seattle downtown library & taking notes of facts.

Here's a year close after Eusebius you can research about seized scriptures and owners put to death by the church unrelated to Eusebius writings; Trier, Spain 385AD, bishop Priscillian & his followers were put to death as heretics by the Church. That should reinforce my statements some. Their books were not just left behind to sprout new heretics, but taken to the Vatican.

There were many heresies around, some dualist like the Bogomils & Cathars, who were rendered extinct & their scriptures taken. Even Church officials died in the Inquisition, such as the German archbishops of Cologne, Treves, & Mayence in Toulouse 1275AD.

My statements aren't all based on Eusebius by a long shot. I tried to track down when various books went out of circulation, with Dead Sea scrolls of around 70AD & Nag Hammadi not much later, as when those books were available, to the printing press Bibles.

There's no disputing that religions died in the Inquisition, some framed like Bogomils, as human sacrificing Christians, as if it's believable that torture killer Inquisitioners were really Christians instead.

For the record, I was raised Catholic, & didn't like learning about all this in my quest for the still lost books.

Heretic books were always taken by the real heretics who killed 900,000 Protestant Reformationists also. Were they all witches? I think not!

As long as some scriptures are secret, we cannot judge if the scriptures were heretical or not for ourselves. Vatican still has all the "heretic scriptures", including what we can't read for ourselves. Only in the last couple of decades have many of the lost books come to light, pushed into the open by the Dead Sea scrolls & Nag Hammadi finds revealing that some books are secret.

We now get the illusion of all out in the open, but it's false. See "The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception" by Baigent & Leigh/Summit Books, about the ongoing secrecy.

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[edit on 17/9/2005 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
Supporting relevant statements in "History of the Church" are on pages 180 & 185 regarding scriptures being subtracted by jews and Christians, before Eusebius' time. Reference to "heretics" put to death is page 221, of various "heresies". An imperial decree orders churches destroyed along with scriptures on page 330.

Thank you for this. But I don't think page numbers are very helpful, since we don't know what translation you refer to, or necessarily have it! The text is online, you know, which is what we need to look at. Can we have book, chapter, and (ideally) verse?

I intend to look them up, you see.

Here's a year close after Eusebius you can research about seized scriptures and owners put to death by the church unrelated to Eusebius writings; Trier, Spain 385AD, bishop Priscillian & his followers were put to death as heretics by the Church. That should reinforce my statements some. Their books were not just left behind to sprout new heretics, but taken to the Vatican.

I'm not sure I understand you. Priscillian and his friends were executed by the state (over the protests of St. Martin of Tours) at the end of the fourth century; the first instance of state power being used to enforce theological conformity (but by no means the last). But Eusebius had been dead over half a century by then.

You state that 'their books' were taken to the Vatican. Which books, precisely, and on what evidence?

As long as some scriptures are secret, we cannot judge if the scriptures were heretical or not for ourselves. Vatican still has all the "heretic scriptures", including what we can't read for ourselves. Only in the last couple of decades have many of the lost books come to light, pushed into the open by the Dead Sea scrolls & Nag Hammadi finds revealing that some books are secret.

It is a mistake to suppose that the Vatican library is difficult of access. This was true in the 19th century -- readers weren't allowed to copy anything, or even to consult the catalogue --, and gave rise to all sorts of conspiracy theories. But the truth was more prosaic: that the Pope had Italian librarians! These, even now, are a pain to deal with. Around 1900 the then pope got fed up with all the hate-mongering and turned the Bibliotheca Apostolica over to the Swiss guard. They're all Germans, of course, so are very efficient. The collection is today one of the better known collections in the world.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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[edit on 17/9/2005 by Mirthful Me]

He cites what texts the different "mother churches" recognize. And in does so, Eusebius is open-minded, and talks about some texts accepted by this church and not that one.

Which is hardly the tone of an "inquisition."

FOR INSTNANCE: Book VI, chapter XIV ( Vol II, p.47 of J. E. L. Oulton's translation for the Loeb Classical Library, Harvard University Press)

[Clement] "has given concise explanations of all the Canonical Scriptures, not passing over the disputed writings, I mean the epistle of Jude . . . and the Epistle of Barnabas, and the Apocalypse known as Peter's"

A fairly inclusive writing style, given the fact that the church in Rome NEVER excepted the last two named 'scriptures.'


The Inquisition, as Google would quickly inform you, was a 15th century product of the Counter-reformation, organized by the Dominicans.

If they were active in the Massachusetts bay colony, they would have been hanged under the Sedition Acts, since Elizabeth had outlawed the presence of Catholic Priests on British soil.

And if the dominicans were present in Tsarist Russia, I'm sure the Eastern Church, as well as the Tsars would have had something (negative) to say about it.


There are a few two many scholars of classical and Biblical literature on this board for you to post anything you can dream up, and then expect not to have your "facts" challenged.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft
There are a few too many scholars of classical and Biblical literature on this board for you to post anything you can dream up, and then expect not to have your "facts" challenged.

In fairness, he's probably new to the internet, and posting in good faith, unaware that most of us have heard these legends many times before. We've all done this some time. If so -- welcome aboard! Don't take anything said on these boards personally: people post as if they were savaging a bitter foe, when they're merely in a rush and not taking the time to smooth down their prose.

It's always a good discipline for all of us to check our facts. In particular, anything posted because it "seems right" is never a safe bet, if it's liable to be controversial.

Of course the other side of the coin is the number of people who post with the utmost certainty statements the truth of which is unknown to them, merely because they are convenient.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

------------------------------------ OK, we define the beginning & end of the Inquisition differently, & what constitutes Inquisition.

#1: The first official church move to deal with heresy was the Edict of Milan presented to the council of Nicea in 325AD, that produced the Nicean Creed, by which heresy was defined.

It was not Dominican or Jesuit (Jesuits took over Inquisition from Dominicans), and they did not torture, yet the persecution of heresy began there. Technically, then the Inquisition began there, but was not formally called an Inquisition yet.

#2: The Dominican phase of Inquisition began in 15th century, but "Christian" rulers were putting people to death as "heretics" before then, such as bishop Pricillian & followers in 385AD Spain. Not officially the Inquisition, but Inquisitional policies in practice already enforcing a version of Christianity over others.

In 1275AD, Toulouse, (before Dominican Inquisition), the German archbishops of Cologne, Treves, & Mayence were burned to death. Not official Inquisition, yet Inquisition policy precurser.

#3: OK, the Salem witch trials were not OFFICIALLY the Inquisition, yet were exactly Inquisition methods & policy. How do we define America, then? The Inquisition was in Mexico & Peru also, until Mexican independence. (wikipedia.org)

#4: I never said Dominicans were in Russia, but Inquisitional activities were, if you research Vladimir & his son Yaroslav. To quote www.religiousbooks.net /History of Ancient Russia; "Mass executions of sectarians and "raskolniks" (old believers) had been performed for centuries", until 1917, after the official Inquisition had stopped in Europe. We can nitpick about official VS unofficial Inquisitional activity, but those millions are still murdered by the same policy of intolerance, pre & post Dominican/Jesuit official Inquisition.

Going back further, jews were seizing & burning books of the Minim sect in the 200sAD, besides paying for the crucifixion betrayal before. Inquisitional intolerance & methods from Judaism was also prevalent in early CE. Rome persecution was replaced by Council of Nicea persecution that evolved into the official Inquisition. I don't limit the Inquisition to Dominicans' role in it.

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[edit on 17/9/2005 by Mirthful Me]

Welcome JJD - good work.

Please do not be offended by argument here, or requests for verification and references. Just provide them, and then be prepared to have your sources "questioned."

There is a tradition here, described as "debunking," which often feels like harassment and bullying - partly because often, it is. But I think here and now, with your claims, that's not the case. You simply are being asked to substantiate your claims, and provide accessible references for evealuation.

Thanks for your contributions, and good luck.

-sofi

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck

------------------------------------ OK, we define the beginning & end of the Inquisition differently, & what constitutes Inquisition.

Well, I am using the definition that the vast majority of the English-speaking world uses. See, here's what I found on Google. Entry number one:

Definitions of inquisition on the Web:

a former tribunal of the Roman Catholic Church (1232-1820) created to discover and suppress heresy


Now you can define the word to mean anything you want. But then, you'll be misleading yourself and possibly other people when you pretend to be sharing a common language with them.

For instance, I'm going to use the term "Peanut Butter" for the term Inquisition. Not the Inquisition I mean, either the catholic one that really ended in the 1600's; nor even the Inquisition presided over by representives of the Spanish Crown, which by the way was actually a State-run, and not a religiously sanctioned institution for mind-control. No. I'll be saying "Peanut Butter" to refer to your use of the term "peanut butter" except where you really mean the Inquisition, or at least your own definitions the aforementioned sandwich spread. So which is it? I don't believe you really grok the concept of peanut butter as an historical reality.

See, isn't it oh-so-much-more helpful when we all start making up our own definitions?

Maybe if we all continue to make up our own "definitions" of historical events, each of us can find a definition that makes it less clear that he, she or it is actually wrong.

The truth means things. If you want to tell me what the inquisition, er, sorry "Peanut Butter" means to us now, then go right ahead. But when you start re-imagining history, start making up "facts" to win your arguments for you, because the historical ones show you to be wrong, do you know what you've become?

A revisionist.

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
#1: The first official church move to deal with heresy was the Edict of Milan presented to the council of Nicea in 325AD, that produced the Nicean Creed, by which heresy was defined.

Just a moment: can we have some clear answers on the Eusebius stuff first, before yet more assertions?

This one new sentence has quite a number of mistakes in it. The Edict of Milan was issued by Constantine in 313 (it's quoted by Lactantius), to legalise Christianity. It was not a church, but a state edict. It was not 'presented to the Council of Nicaea' The Nicene creed does not define heresy, but belief. The Council of Nicaea was certainly not the first church attempt to deal with heresy: anti-heretical works abounded in the second century, although most are lost, but Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses written ca. 180 is a good first point at which to start.

It would be difficult to get many more errors in there; but at least you got the date of the Council right (and, believe it or not, people do get this wrong if they read the wrong books).

It was not Dominican or Jesuit (Jesuits took over Inquisition from Dominicans), and they did not torture, yet the persecution of heresy began there. Technically, then the Inquisition began there, but was not formally called an Inquisition yet.

Unless you mean that no ideologically-based body has the right to self-definition (why?), these statements are meaningless. Quite how the inquisition technically began then you do not explain.

#2: The Dominican phase of Inquisition began in 15th century, but "Christian" rulers were putting people to death as "heretics" before then, such as bishop Pricillian & followers in 385AD Spain.

You do not make clear that this was the first such incident. Are you sure about the date, by the way? (Without looking it up).

Not officially the Inquisition, but Inquisitional policies in practice already enforcing a version of Christianity over others.

What do you mean? If you mean that Christians are not entitled to self-determination (why?), you must say so. If you accept that they are, in what sense is identification of people with a different agenda 'persecution'?

All very confused, it seems to me. Furthermore, in the age of the gulag and the gas-chamber, somewhat hateful when you consider that the prime victims of the Spanish Inquisition were the Christians, and that Christians, as a group, are a peaceful lot.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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[edit on 17/9/2005 by Mirthful Me]

Here's a year close after Eusebius you can research about seized scriptures and owners put to death by the church unrelated to Eusebius writings; Trier, Spain 385AD, bishop Priscillian & his followers were put to death as heretics by the Church. That should reinforce my statements some. Their books were not just left behind to sprout new heretics, but taken to the Vatican.


I'm not sure I understand you. Priscillian and his friends were executed by the state (over the protests of St. Martin of Tours) at the end of the fourth century; the first instance of state power being used to enforce theological conformity (but by no means the last). But Eusebius had been dead over half a century by then.

You state that 'their books' were taken to the Vatican. Which books, precisely, and on what evidence?

As long as some scriptures are secret, we cannot judge if the scriptures were heretical or not for ourselves. Vatican still has all the "heretic scriptures", including what we can't read for ourselves. Only in the last couple of decades have many of the lost books come to light, pushed into the open by the Dead Sea scrolls & Nag Hammadi finds revealing that some books are secret.

It is a mistake to suppose that the Vatican library is difficult of access. This was true in the 19th century -- readers weren't allowed to copy anything, or even to consult the catalogue --, and gave rise to all sorts of conspiracy theories. But the truth was more prosaic: that the Pope had Italian librarians! These, even now, are a pain to deal with. Around 1900 the then pope got fed up with all the hate-mongering and turned the Bibliotheca Apostolica over to the Swiss guard. They're all Germans, of course, so are very efficient. The collection is today one of the better known collections in the world.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Pages 180 & 185 are in the chapter; 4 Trajan to Marcus Aurelius: bishops, verses 18 & 23.

Page 221 is; 5 Marcus Aurelius to Severus 16.22.

Though bishop Pricillian & followers were executed by gov, it was a conviction of HERESY based on the 325AD Nicean Creed defining heresy. It wasn't officially called Inquisition yet, but it was the same policy, on behalf of Church influence, so, Inquisitional policy.

You asked what books, as if the Church advertized what was being hidden, besides the "DIALOGUE OF THE SAVIOUR" that was only discovered because of the Nag Hammadi find. You imply that because evidence was taken, no crime occurred.

www.orb.rhodes.edu... has the lost Book of John the Evangelist, a main book of the exterminated religions, only recently extant, only because the Inquisition kept record of its' content.

www.cl.bas.bg... for this list of books kept hidden from public view still, some of them; Oration on the Cross, and Two Outlaws by Saint Gregory, Secret book of the Bogomils, On Adam & Eve and the End of the World, Vision of Isaiah, Gospel of Nicodemus, Book of Enoch, Legend of the Cross by Father Jeremiah.

Available ONLY IF Oxford-Bodellian Library lets you read it from MS Junius; Christ and Satan, Lament of Fallen Angels, and CURRENTLY available Infancy Gospel, & Harrowing of Hell. The Junius II also is unavailable for publication.

The Vatican exterminated the Bogomils & Cathars and IF they didn't take their books, as you'd have us believe, then why aren't these books extant?

It's no coincidence that the 9th century Saxon Heliand isn't available in English either, containing the "Christ and Satan" "heresy".

I'm hoping invaders will over run the Vatican archives and make public ALL the hidden writings. Some of the secret writings are kept by jews, like the Book of Zerubabel, and COMPLETE book of Jasher, mentioned twice in the Old Testament.

How many titles without texts do you need to accept the reality of censorship? I'd guess there are titles we've never even heard of hidden. There are a list of books claimed to be by Christ, one only coming out recently (probably edited) the Gospel of Peace.

Much has been revealed that was unknown before the Dead Sea scrolls & Nag Hammadi finds put a spotlight on hidden works. Read "The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception" by Baigent & Leigh/Summit Books, about the CONTINUING Inquisition of Opus Dei & jews, trying to suppress scriptures formerly accepted as authentic.

There was no evidence of those scriptures, mostly, before the discoveries at Qumran & Nag Hammadi. The discoveries ARE evidence of inquisitionlike activity long before Dominican/Jesuit official Inquisition. I include jews in my definition of inquisitionality, because jews were the first to use tortures during inquisitionlike activity, against the Minim sect.

Before the internet, only priests could read books like the Gospel of Thomas & the long list of NOW known excluded scriptures.

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[edit on 17/9/2005 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
"the History of the Church" by Dorset Books finds the first instance of the Church seizing scriptures & putting the owners to death documented by Eusebius in 325AD.

Supporting relevant statements in "History of the Church" are on pages 180 & 185 regarding scriptures being subtracted by jews and Christians, before Eusebius' time. Reference to "heretics" put to death is page 221, of various "heresies". An imperial decree orders churches destroyed along with scriptures on page 330.

Pages 180 & 185 are in the chapter; 4 Trajan to Marcus Aurelius: bishops, verses 18 & 23.

Page 221 is; 5 Marcus Aurelius to Severus 16.22.

Thanks. It sounds as if you are working from some version of the Penguin text to me, although not an edition I have. But I can work it out from this.

180 & 185 regarding scriptures being subtracted by jews and Christians,...
Pages 180 & 185 are in the chapter; 4 Trajan to Marcus Aurelius: bishops, verses 18 & 23.

is, therefore, book 4, chapter 18 and book 4, ch. 23. Ch. 18 is about the works of Justin Martyr, not about scripture at all.

Ch. 23 is about the letters of Dionysius of Alexandria, which includes only the extract from one letter where he mentions the forgery of scripture by heretics:

"As the brethren desired me to write epistles, I wrote. And these epistles the apostles of the devil have filled with tares, cutting out some things and adding others. For them a woe is reserved. It is, therefore, not to be wondered at if some have attempted to adulterate the Lord's writings also, since they have formed designs even against writings which are of less accounts."

As far as I can see, neither passage backs up the original statement that Eusebius documents the church seizing scriptures.

Reference to "heretics" put to death is page 221, of various "heresies"...
Page 221 is; 5 Marcus Aurelius to Severus 16.22.

I.e. Book 5, chapter 16, verse 22

This also contains no reference to the church putting heretics to death -- impossible anyway -- but discusses the Montanist martyrs.

An imperial decree orders churches destroyed along with scriptures on page 330.

I'm afraid you gave no book and chapter for this. But it must refer to the persecution of the church by Diocletian, I would guess. Again, it does not back up the original claim.

Did you check any of the pages in Eusebius yourself? If so, how on earth did you come out with this? If instead you relied on a third source, well, you now know not to rely on that source for factual information.

Though bishop Pricillian & followers were executed by gov, it was a conviction of HERESY based on the 325AD Nicean Creed defining heresy.

Document these assertions, please.

You asked what books, as if the Church advertized what was being hidden, besides the "DIALOGUE OF THE SAVIOUR" that was only discovered because of the Nag Hammadi find. You imply that because evidence was taken, no crime occurred.

I asked you to document precisely which books were taken to the Vatican after the execution of Priscillian and his friends. If you are telling me that no-one knows, then how do you know this happened?

The Nag Hammadi finds have nothing to do with Priscillianism.

www.orb.rhodes.edu... has the lost Book of John the Evangelist, a main book of the exterminated religions, only recently extant, only because the Inquisition kept record of its' content.

This site comes up as unknown. I presume you're referring to something like the Apocryphon of John -- a work with no connection to the Apostle John -- of which a copy comes from Nag Hammadi. Quite what the connection was to the inquisition you do not say, other than asserting -- without evidence -- that there is one.

You may not realise that if you make wild and insulting assertions without evidence, people will by and large start being rude to you. Please be more careful, more precise, and offer evidence for your claims. It's only polite.

www.cl.bas.bg... for this list of books kept hidden from public view still, some of them; Oration on the Cross, and Two Outlaws by Saint Gregory, Secret book of the Bogomils, On Adam & Eve and the End of the World, Vision of Isaiah, Gospel of Nicodemus, Book of Enoch, Legend of the Cross by Father Jeremiah.

This is a strange website, and I have nothing to say about Bogomilism. But the Books of Enoch are on the web; if the Gospel of Nicodemus is not, I would be surprised. Of course I have no idea if these are ancient texts of this name, or medieval forgeries. I did not see on that website anywhere the suggestion that these are 'kept hidden from public view' -- why do you assert this?

Available ONLY IF Oxford-Bodellian Library lets you read it from MS Junius; Christ and Satan, Lament of Fallen Angels, and CURRENTLY available Infancy Gospel, & Harrowing of Hell. The Junius II also is unavailable for publication.

You're now accusing the Bodleian of keeping secrets? Ahem. You don't know this, my friend. Why are you making this up? As it happens, some of us have access to the Bodleian Mss...

The Vatican exterminated the Bogomils & Cathars and IF they didn't take their books, as you'd have us believe, then why aren't these books extant?

I'm not sure I understand. Books can only disappear if the Vatican takes them? Confused. I have snipped further assertions about medieval texts of which I have no knowledge, and, candidly, I suspect you don't either.

I'm hoping invaders will over run the Vatican archives and make public ALL the hidden writings...

Why not just study hard, get a relevant degree, and write and ask for a reader's ticket?

Before the internet, only priests could read books like the Gospel of Thomas & the long list of NOW known excluded scriptures.

The Coptic gospel of Thomas was published in the 1950's, you know!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

The years you cite as the official Inquisition ignore the fact that mass murders of heretic Christians continued until 1917 in Russia, and STILL continue, according to "The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception"/Summit Books. Maybe they don't use the rack now publically, but they still suppress any scriptures wanted to be secret by Opus Dei (Vatican) & the jews. Not ALL the Dead Sea scrolls are public, at the time of that book: 1991.

The burned archbishops of Colgne, Treves & Mayence at Toulouse in 1275 sure died in true Inquisition (unChristian) fashion. Bishop Pricillian & followers put to death in 385AD weren't part of your official dates of Inquisition, yet were convicted of "heresy" in accordance with the Nicean Creed. The Nicean Creed of 325AD certainly IS the foundation for inquisitionlike activity by the Church itself, preceded by jewish inquisition against Christ and the Minims, and Roman persecutions killing believers and destroying scriptures they used.

Disputing the dates of beginning & end doesn't change the fact that millions of Christian "heretics" were put to death before and after your official dates. 900,000 Protestant Reformationists killed; was it justifiable as heretics? The Inquisitioners were worse heretics by far.

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[edit on 17/9/2005 by Mirthful Me]

You say the Gospel of Thomas wasn't published until 1950. EXACTLY what I'm talking about! WHY was it hidden until then, like most of the apocryphal works? Because the Vatican hid it until then, NOT because it wasn't written until then.

Please post a link to Christ and Satan from the MS Junius at Oxford Bodellian library, I'd STILL like to read it at least once in my studies!

How can you pretend that nothing was ever hid when much STILL IS? Please post a link to the Heliand in English, if it's not hidden from the general public. I don't want to take the murderous Jesuit oath in order to read it!

The 325AD Nicean Creed set the standard for official Church persecution of "gnostic" Christians, at the time of Eusebius, when heretics were already being killed anyhow.
OK, I was mistaken about the exact year of church influenced killings of heretics, which was 385AD, Bishop Pricillian & followers, convicted of HERESY in Spain, dictated by policy set in 325AD Council at Nicea.

We can be sure there were many unknown victims of the policy who never made history because the whole congregation wasn't put to death, as with Pricillian. Sure, gov did it, but as enforcers of church policy set in 325AD.

It's still evidence of the policy of Inquisition practiced long before the official Inquisition was declared openly. I never saw any available scripture that justifies torture and murder to suppress it, to this day, though much is still hidden.

You strain at a gnat, while the camel escapes! The Cathars & Bogomils were exterminated and their books are mostly still hidden, as I listed from www.cl.bas.bg...

I rest my case, though you nitpicked at an error as if it were fatal. Much inthe Qumran & Nag Hammadi finds WAS hidden until found all over again. Don't tell me the Vatican knew nothing about those writings whose owners were put to death.

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[edit on 17/9/2005 by Mirthful Me]

Is this the same "Christ and Satan" you're talking about:

www.yorku.ca...


Here's this site of the Heliand in German. It certainly isn't a repressed text, just one that's not available in English:

www.wulfila.be...

It's quite dated, i.e., it's been in print for several generations. Hardly supressed; you just have to apply yourself to get access to it.

In all honesty, it's probably not in English because few people are aware or interested in it --not because the Vatican is secretly controlling the whims of Barnes & Nobles' readership.

I've already seen the Heliand in ancient Saxon, that's NOT in modern German, my dictionary is useless to try and read it. It is the same Christ and Satan book as was with the Bogomil and Cathar books, contained in it. It SHOULD gave survived somehow, as widely used as it was once, it is also in the unpublished Junius II or MS Junius, according to my notes.

Obviously Christ & Satan is a serious issue book with the extermination of Cathars & Bogomils. I wasn't able to access your link to it, by the way. It may be because I'm using a limited webtv system here.

Note is has NOT been available all along. That's the point. The books of Thomas and the rest was once for priests only to read. The Qumran & Nag Hammadi finds exposed that much was hidden, so Vatican let go with the less vital books.

They're still sitting on the rest of Dialogue of the Saviour. Nag Hammadi cannot likely have been the only copy ever in existence, as possession of scrolls was enough to start a church with then.

So far, in ALL the once secret writings I've read, I don't see anything that justifies the torture killer Inquisition anywhere. Some stuff is strange, like Pistis Sophia, but not evil promoting.

The secret of the Inquisition is not revealed yet. The Gospel of Peace is supposedly Christ also, and it's been a secret until recent years. I know the Book of John the Evangelist IS NOT the same as any of the apocryphal John books, as I read what I think is only a tiny piece of the original, because it is very short. I have the Apocrypha here and Psuedopigrapha, and every other extraBiblical scripture I could get.

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
#2: www.truthquestonline.info lie.

What do you find convincing from that page??

I know a Rosicrucian/freemason.

Why do you think that that is relevant?

You say the Inquisition was never in the USA, but the Salem witch rials were in the USA.

The witch trials had nothing to do with the Inquisition.

. & the Inquisition WAS also in Russia.

When?

#4: I suggest you research before making these claims that I lie about everything.

How about you present the evidence or your statements rather than worrying about wether or not peopel are calling you a liar?

The Cathar & Bogomil religions became extinct during the Inquisition via murder sponsored by Jesuit control.

The jesuits didn't exist at the time of the cathars.

What evidence? 7 miles of underground catacombs full of old scrolls & wood cover books that are the Vatican archives.

The fact that the vatican has a big ol library does not mean that it has secret cathar gospels or any of the other stuff you mention. Apparently you are merely assuming that they have what you are talking about, not basing that on any documentary or archaeological evidence.

I wouldn't bother to answer you, except that your denials call me a liar on every point,

So lemme get this straight, you normally don't discuss stuff with people who disagree with you, because you 'know'' you are right or something, but I've just ticked you off so you're going to respond anyways? Great conversational skills

without any evidence otherwise.

I wouldn't bother to present a thorough and detailed analysis to rebutt a poorly laid out set of mere assumptions. Certainly I needn't present any more evidence to refute a claim than has been offered to support it.

Why believe it was written by Jesus? Because Christ could read & write scriptures, as the tradition of prophets.

So anything that has any claim of being somewhat ancient and being written by jesus....was written by jesus??

WHY NOT be allowed to discern for ourselves IF Christ wrote it? We're not at liberty to read it all.

The nag hammadi documents are are publically available are they not? Indeed, thats the only reason that you actually know it exists.

You called Saxon Christians "German barbarians", seeing my name is German. I reckon that's a slur.

They're german, they're barbarians, not much else to it.

Consider me reporting you to you, moderator! The point about the Heliand is that, like the "Dialogue", the public isn't allowed to know what it says,

You've stated that its publically available, merely in the saxon language. Therefore, the public is allowed to know whats in it.

You shouldn't claim it's "shamanic" without ANY evidence, should you?

I did not claim it was shamanic.

Don't reply to me anymore, moderator! I'll consider it harrassment.

It will not be recognized as such. If you do not wish to see my replies, then put me on your site provided "Ignore" list

#9: Google up the altar of Moloch that still stands near Carthage Tunisia

The god only seems to be called moloch in the bible, tho this probably is quibbling.

who cares if Crowley die from supernatural causes? I'm no fan of his.

You're the one who brought it up

www.truthquestonline.info

What did you find convincing from that site??

I presume you're a freemason

Your presumption is based on absolutely no evidence, nor even rational thought, and, indeed, is utterly wrong, as are most conclusions that are not based on evidence.

Google "Captain William Morgan"

An unsolved dissapearance, not even shown to be a case of murder, and it surely requires a bit more than that to say that the masons have a habit of slitting the throats of those who break their secerts. Lots of peopel have written exposes about the masons and gone into detailed descriptions about the secrets. Clearly the organization doesn't striclty enforce these rules.

. Bush & Kerry both admit to belonging to the masonic "Order of Death" a.k.a. Skull & Bones

Skull and bones has nothing to do with masonry.

but neither will say anything about the Illuminati founded Order

I beleive that skull and bones pre-dates the illuminati.

. I've been threatened repeatedly to die before an audience of masons.

And yet you live. You must be a wiley one.

That's because I expose stuff like KKK being founded by former top US freemason Albert Pike,

No one has even been able to show that Pike was in the KKK, let alone founded it.

You want proof the UN is mason controlled. ww.ralphepperson.com is a historian who was supplied many of his facts about freemasons by 33rds.

What did you find to be convincing from those pages?

The "G" shaped UN conference tables mean what?

This?

Its meaningless. Its a semi circle table with another center table.

The blood red masonic Fez hats commemorate the extermination of about 50,000 Christians at Fez Morocco around 800AD (Epperson).

No such event happened.
Fez and shriners too

I guess that this fellow is rather sinister too then

The Arabic sword & symbols are Baalist.

Since when is baal associated with a scimitar and a crescent moon??

Freemasons are the evilest people I've ever met.

Apparently you have not met anyone particularly evil then.

Please post a link to the Heliand in English, if it's not hidden from the general public.

Why would anyone bother to translate the text into english and go thru the bother of publishing it?? Why shoudl anyone expect on the face of it that the saxons had more authentic gospels than the early christians of the mediterranean?

The Cathars & Bogomils were exterminated and their books are mostly still hidden, as I listed from

That site notes that the books were transfered from the balkans all the way to england. It also notes that there is lots of material that is known, even up until the 1600's it lists people as taking material from them and working them up in their own texts, it mentions nothing about the vatican taking the books and locking them away, and also indicates that enough of them is still known to this day to be able to say that they heavily borrow from religions like zoroasterianism. And given that alone, why think that they are at all authentic?


[edit on 18-9-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by James J Dierbeck
Nag Hammadi was post Christ, surely. The point is the Church got with the persecution by subversion. Dead Sea scrolls were hidden because of danger, like Nag Hammadi scrolls. You're nitpicking.

Except that the Church wasn't organized OR far reaching in those days. The Dead Sea scrolls were hidden about 60-70AD. This is before the book of Mark and Revelation and a few other gospels were written.

gbgm-umc.org...

#2: www.truthquestonline.info has the historic evidence about Rosicrucians connection to freemasonry that you say is a
lie. I know a Rosicrucian/freemason.

It must have been redesigned. There's nothing on that page about Masons or Rosicrucians. And I'll counter your "I know a Rosicrucian/Freemason" with "my dad is a Mason AND a Shriner, and my brother was in the DeMolays and two former bosses were Masons." So I have a lot of contact with them. No Rosicrucians, however.

#3: You say the Inquisition was never in the USA, but the Salem witch trials were in the USA.

That wasn't the Inquisition. That was witch-hunting hysteria among Protestants (the Inquisition was Catholic.)

Another false claim by a moderator here. & the Inquisition WAS also in Russia.

Are you confusing "religious persecution" with the Inquisition? The Inquisition was a specific time period and involved specific Catholic religious orders. It began by order of Pope Sixtus IV and officially ended in 1834.
galileo.rice.edu...

The Russian Church separates from the Catholic church in the 1400's and doesn't get involved in the Inquisition:
rumkatkilise.org...

#4: I suggest you research before making these claims that I lie about everything. The Cathar & Bogomil religions became extinct during the Inquisition via murder sponsored by Jesuit control.

Actually, there was a lot of "reeducation" going on. They didn't need to kill everyone... just replace the leaders. And it was the Dominicans who started it, with the Franciscans joining in later. The Jebbies didn't get into inquisitions until the late 1500s, since the order was only founded in 1540:
www.languedoc-france.info...

#6: Why believe it was written by Jesus?

Because it was written after his crucifixion.

Because Christ could read & write scriptures, as the tradition of prophets. WHY NOT be allowed to discern for ourselves IF Christ wrote it? We're not at liberty to read it all. Dialogue of the Saviour is CLAIMED to be Christ writing, & what I can see of it, I see no reason to say it isn't...do you? There's also other books claimed to be by Christ that aren't in the Bible, but are available in recent times to at least read. It was in the collection because it was taken seriously.

Welp, here it is online (have checked other resources and this is a reliable translation):
www.gnosis.org...

I don't think it's the writings of Jesus... unless he liked to refer to himself in the third person.

The point about the Heliand is that, like the "Dialogue", the public isn't allowed to know what it says, which is suspect here. Y

In fact, it's available on Internet and its contents have been discussed in scholarly publications before. This page (and others) report that it's been printed and reprinted in more than 10 different editions and there are several hundred books about it (I have found other evidence that suggests this number is actually UNDERreported):
www.newadvent.org...

You can see the text here -- so Internet is bringing this to a wider audience than before:
www.wulfila.be...

#8: KJV is a 1611AD post Inquisition version & is NOT the most accurate wording, I acknowledge. Latin Vulgate IS according to a Hebrew translations scholar interviewed by George Noory, and I personally find it's best for science/Bible discussions.

Actually, some of the modern translations are better. St. Jerome did edit some of the meaning... there's some differences in the Jewish texts and the Christian texts.

#9: Google up the altar of Moloch that still stands near Carthage Tunisia, where children & adults were burned to death to terrorize people into compliance with Baalists publically. Psalm 137:8-9 KJV or 136:8-9 other versions is about avenging the Babylonian Baalist rituals of child murders also. Don't tell me the net doesn't have any history of Baalism & Molech rituals.

I did google up the references... the scholarly ones. Your information sources seem to be derived in large part from Flaubert's novel (fiction), Salammbo, which was written in the 1800's:
en.wikipedia.org...

Eissfeldt's theories have been challenged by many other scholars, and there's no evidence that widespread human sacrifice occurred anywhere other than among the religions of Central America.

#11: www.truthquestonline.info has the history of the Knights Templars & Freemasons & Jesuits & Holy Grail & Rosicrucians & Crusades all at one site.

It doesn't.

Bush & Kerry both admit to belonging to the masonic "Order of Death" a.k.a. Skull & Bones,

S&B isn't Masonic, and while some Masons may belong to S&B, that's about as significant as them belonging to the Chamber of Commerce.

I've been threatened repeatedly to die before an audience of masons.

Then you should report these people to the police. Death threats are against the law.

That's because I expose stuff like KKK being founded by former top US freemason Albert Pike

It's interesting that you supposedly get death threats while other people write about and publish this information and see no consequences to their personal or professional or family lives:
en.wikipedia.org...

You want proof the UN is mason controlled. www.ralphepperson.com is a historian who was supplied many of his facts about freemasons by 33rds. The "G" shaped UN conference tables mean what? The 33 divisions of the UN world means what? The 13 leave wreaths are the ruling Illuminati clans-"Bloodlines of the Illuminati" by Fritz Springmeier.

Fiddlesticks. Our brains are designed to make connections of patterns and you can make a pattern of anything you like.

The blood red masonic Fez hats commemorate the extermination of about 50,000 Christians at Fez Morocco around 800AD (Epperson). The Arabic sword & symbols are Baalist.

The masons don't wear fezzes; they wear aprons. The fezzes are worn by the Shriners.

I don't know where you're getting your history from -- Fez, Morocco wasn't founded until 818 and it was refuge to about 8,000 Arab (not Christian) families who fled from Spain during those persecutions:
www.mincom.gov.ma...