Concerning Lucifer in Freemasonry

Originally posted by The Axeman


Why does it seem like it's so difficult for you to understand that the penalties are symbolic.

When you were a kid, didn't you ever hear someone say "Cross my heart, hope to die; stick a thousand needles in my eye"?

The penalty is actually being suspended, expelled, and branded a "willfully perjured individual," which is much worse, to a good Mason (figuratively speaking), than any physical pain one could inflict.

I'd also like to hear your response to my previous post.

[edit on 9/22/05 by The Axeman]

I`d also like to give my point of view Axe,your previous post is concerning a person after the fact they are a Mason.Where what is being confused here i think is that there are too many reasons to not be in that position to begin with if a person was better informed or had better judgment only from what i know of a Christian perspective.

Though i do understand that a Mason can easily,as i`ve heard get dislodged lol,but those oaths would still deter some people from doing so.


This link of a Mason site that admitted that in the true sense of the word a Christian can not be a Mason,it changed to a dictionary Mason site not to long after i posted it about a year ago?So why do other Mason`s have trouble understanding what these Mason`s understood?This is the link anyway.
www.freemasoninfo.ca...

Axe so in a way are you saying that because as kids we all said things like

"Cross my heart, hope to die; stick a thousand needles in my eye"

That Mason`s oath`s are childish?if so dont you think its time to grow up and discard childish behavior?

This is`nt my view of your oath`s,when adults commit to such oaths as Mason`s do i think its a bit more serious than kids repeating something they heard another kid say,but its the one you gave for us.

Besides these things i would like to ask the Christian Mason a question.....
Does a Masonic Brother over ride a Christian Brother,i ask this because this is what i have witnessed on ATS too many times to count.

Example someone attacks Christians or Christianity outcome= Christian Mason-nil to no response but only responds to the Christian not to the attacker,Christian speaks out for Christianity or for Christians followed by attack,Christian Mason nil to no response.Sounds to me as if Christian Mason`s only support Mason`s or pro.

Christs example=

Mathew 12

[46] While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
[47] Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
[48] But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
[49] And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
[50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Sounds to me as if Christ favours his own,even over family,as brothers in Christ why dont you think we should be the same?,why do the Christian Mason`s only support Freemasonry and other Mason`s,because there has not been one Christian Mason that is`nt oppossed to myself and vice versa yet i have gotten and given support from non Mason Christian`s.

You might answer with.....it`s because you have attacked us as Christians,sure i`m able to put myself in anothers perspective i can understand that response,but when Christianity is being attacked by someone you still attack Christians,so that does`nt wash with me.

I also have read that Freemasonry is suppossed to be based on the bible and still is,then by Christs teaching that any and all can be saved through his sacrifice for our sin`s Mason`s check peoples back grounds to be or not to be accepted to become one,criminal record(felony)=sorry pal,let alone how it used to be blacks and cripples were`nt allowed to join either,sounds nothing like the Bibles teachings what so ever on who can be accepted.So i dont buy that either.


[edit on 23-9-2005 by gps777]

This thread has grown, but some where on page 4 final tells me that he is still waiting for me!

The time i have avalible is not always the same, sometimes i have more time to post on my hobby! other times i have not!

This is one of those times! I administrate and moderate different sites, also have my work to take care of, as i have started my own firm!
Also have 2 different blogs one in english and one in danish to take care of, and as i also use these blogs for bussiness i tend to prioritize them!

Anyways to get to the famous neon point! Ill get to ASAP

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Masonic Light
A Christian before Masonry isn't necessarily "in the dark". Again, the entire Masonic ceremony is symbolic, and represents the historical transition from the dark ages into the Enlightenment.

Is this transition the same as the renaissance?

No, but the Renaissance, along with the Reformation, could be seen as the spiritual "first shot fired" in the Enlightenment.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Now, ignoring Masonry for a moment, you may ask: well, were Christians in the dark before the Enlightenment. I would answer, yes, there were very, very many Christians in the dark before the Enlightenment. Even the most brief and basic study of western history shows that this is undeniably the case.

That was the meat and potatoes of what I was looking for. Thanks again for your candidness, and yet another reason why I personally could never be a Mason.

As mentioned, that really doesn't have anything to do with Masonry; it's a simple fact. Galileo was condemned to death because he postulated that the earth revolves around the sun, instead of vice versa. This theory contradicted the Bible, wherein David, in his Psalm, said that the earth was "fixed and immovable". Galileo's life was spared only when he publicly recanted his theory, even though he knew it to be basically correct.

Another famous example is found in Ferdinand Magellan. He famously said: "The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round; I have seen its shadow on the moon. And I have more faith in the shadow than in the church".

Now, were the Christians who persecuted Gailileo in need of more light? Were the Christians who told Magellan that the earth was flat in need of more light? You may disagree, but I think the answer here is pretty obvious.

Originally posted by gps777
www.freemasoninfo.ca...

I can't seem to access this site, gps777. If you can, could you paste some of the relevant passages for me to look at?

Besides these things i would like to ask the Christian Mason a question.....
Does a Masonic Brother over ride a Christian Brother,i ask this because this is what i have witnessed on ATS too many times to count.

I'm not too sure what you are getting at here. I put my opinion forward, in this context based on my knowledge of freemasonry and my understanding of Christ. I tend to answer questions and correct misunderstandings or falsehoods. As a Christian I post on other forums, as a freemason I am posting here. So if a Christian has a false understanding of freemasonry I will try to correct him. On the other forum if a freemason identified himself as such and has a false impression of Christianity I would correct him likewise. However Christianity doesn't seem to suffer from such widespread misunderstand as freemasonry does so the traffic, regretfully, is pretty much one way.

On any post I make I try to preface my comments with IMO, but where it is a matter of fact I will also say so. It is up to others to accept or reject what I have to say - I have no control over that.

Christs example= snipped bible passage

Perhaps this excerpt from my masonic ritual will act as a pointer..

Therein you will be taught the important duties you owe to God, to your neighbour and to yourself... To your neighbour, by acting with him on the square, by rendering him every kind office which justice or mercy may require, by relieving his necessities and soothing his afflictions, and by doing to him as in similar cases you, would wish he would do to you.

Although it is perfectly true that a freemason is taught to assist a brother in time of need, I have three observations to make on this...

1. The charge is made outside of the obligation, and no freemason is therefore bound by an obligation to assist anyone
2. At no time is a freemason told not to help a non-mason
3. Many people interpret the word brother not just to be a masonic brother but anyone (brotherhood of man), and as exemplified in the quote regarding assisting one's neighbour, you will find a freemason willing to help anyone where possible, not just other freemasons.

... because there has not been one Christian Mason that is`nt oppossed to myself and vice versa yet i have gotten and given support from non Mason Christian`s.

What sort of support would you like, brother?

Originally posted by saint4God
That was the meat and potatoes of what I was looking for. Thanks again for your candidness, and yet another reason why I personally could never be a Mason.

But you participate in the fruits of the enlightenment no? Isn't that the same sort of thing? Also, notice that the implication is that christians were in the 'dark' because of their ignorance of the world around them, not that they were in the dark in terms of faith, ie, needed 'a light-bringer' to alter, correct, enlighten their faith and illuminate the formerly darkened metaphyscial world, thus dispelling superstitious notions of 'christ' and redemption or anything like that. The Dark Ages were dark because (well technically because of the related situation of not having any documentary and very little archaeological evidence from that period) the europeans were wholely ignorant of the world around them, and had lost the sensible teachings of the classical past (which the early church fathers apparently were educated in and appareciated and didn't think conflicted with their pure faith) and also because the centralized church had taken over the function of the state and ruled almost entirely via authority.

I mean, I suspect that you are concerned that masonry is saying; with faith in jesus alone, you're still in the dark and you need to get rid of that silly faith, whereas its apparently not saying anything of the sort.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Nygdan
I mean, I suspect that you are concerned that masonry is say, with faith in jesus alone, you're still in the dark and you need to get rid of that silly faith, whereas its apparently not saying anything of the sort.

Absolutely correct, and if freemasonry ever did say this then millions of Christian members would resign and the organisation would disappear.

But it doesn't, they won't, and it hasn't.

Trinity thats what i was pointing out about that link,it now redirects you to a Masonic dictionary where as before when i posted it on ATS it stated that in the true sense of the word a Christian can not be a Mason,and it was a Mason site.

I find it very strange that it no longer exists.

Trinity i dont know how else to put it than the way i did,if thats all you saw in what i wrote i dont know how to put it another way,well for time being away.

I have come across a Christian Mason on ATS before that reminds me of yourself and i cant help but be annoyed because you are supposed to be my brother,which the bible quote i provided specified.

The examples i gave you on why i can not as a Christian trust Freemasonry to be biblicly based when it looks into someones past,regardless of who the person maybe at the time,does`nt sound anything like my God would accept as His own principles.He forgets when repented on purpose.

If Christianity only allowed the clean,Christianity would`nt exist accept for Christ.Freemasonry only cares about its image and you defend it?.

Originally posted by The Axeman
Why does it seem like it's so difficult for you to understand that the penalties are symbolic.

I don't know. I guess because just about every symbol I've bumped into had meaning.

Originally posted by The Axeman
When you were a kid, didn't you ever hear someone say "Cross my heart, hope to die; stick a thousand needles in my eye"?

Which, as a God-believing adult, I can say is not something I should do.

Originally posted by The Axeman
The penalty is actually being suspended, expelled, and branded a "willfully perjured individual," which is much worse, to a good Mason (figuratively speaking), than any physical pain one could inflict.

Hm. Can a Mason come back once they're booted?

Originally posted by The Axeman
I'd also like to hear your response to my previous post.

Oops! Might have missed it, I'll go back.

Originally posted by The Axeman
I think in the context of Masonry, the differences are irrelevant to the principle. The idea is that each man depends on his own interpretation of God to hand down to him the laws which his particular idea of god admonishes him to live by.

Then as a Christian I'd see my principle different than a non-Christian, so I'd see no 'botherhood by principle'. This is my opinion so kinda kept it to myself before.

So to me, this says that whetever a man's personal faith dictates is what he should strive for, and the symbols merely help to remember and accentuate the sticking points of his particular faith. So the differences are indeed irrelevant.

Yeah, again don't see how this is Biblical. In fact, 2 Corinthians 6:14 says "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God said: 'I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people. Therefore come out from them and be separate. Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you' says the Lord. 'I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters', says the Lord Almighty."

I do believe joining a selective organization and spending time with them as brothers is being yoked when you take an oath to them.

In my opinion, this is why the Masons require a belief in a Supreme Being; without that foundation of faith (whatever htat faith may be), the Masonic teachings would be useless.

Keep in mind I am not a Mason as of yet, I've just studied the subject at length, and these are my own interpretations.

It sounds on-track from the Masons I have hear from.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by gps777
Trinity thats what i was pointing out about that link,it now redirects you to a Masonic dictionary where as before when i posted it on ATS it stated that in the true sense of the word a Christian can not be a Mason,and it was a Mason site.

I find it very strange that it no longer exists.

That's Stephen Dafoe's site, and I can assure you he would not say that or propogate that idea... simply because Masons know that it's not true.

Perhaps you misunderstood?

Tell you what; I'll contact him and see if I can find the file you're referring to somewhere elso on one of his sites.

Originally posted by gps777
You thought correct Saint,it`s an abbreviation for James.Type in oath and swear in the proximity search here for further refference.But after you mentioned it i did scratch my head, Jas?

Ya! James 5:12, got it now. Thanks.

Hi again

Originally posted by gps777
Trinity thats what i was pointing out about that link,it now redirects you to a Masonic dictionary where as before when i posted it on ATS it stated that in the true sense of the word a Christian can not be a Mason,and it was a Mason site. I find it very strange that it no longer exists.

OK - sorry... I misunderstood you. I guess there are a number of reasons why it might not be active anymore. Without more 'light' we are just 'speculating'.

I have come across a Christian Mason on ATS before that reminds me of yourself and i cant help but be annoyed because you are supposed to be my brother,which the bible quote i provided specified.

I've always posted under this name on ATS, I guess I must have an alter-ego somewhere . In a Christian sense I am most certainly your brother, and I'm sorry I've annoyed you although I'm not altogether sure how I've done that.

The examples i gave you on why i can not as a Christian trust Freemasonry to be biblicly based when it looks into someones past,regardless of who the person maybe at the time,does`nt sound anything like my God would accept as His own principles.He forgets when repented on purpose.

I'm not sure what you mean about looking into someone's past. Freemasonry doesn't do that except to ensure that anyone joining is of sufficient calibre. Certainly no detailed questions about religious affiliation are asked as it is no business of freemasonry which religion you are a member of. FM in effect says "you are expected to become a better person through the study of your own faith". Please note that no Christian freemason would believe that being a 'better person' would get you saved. Only Christ can do that.

If Christianity only allowed the clean,Christianity would`nt exist accept for Christ.Freemasonry only cares about its image and you defend it?.

I haven't forgotten that. And as for your last sentence, it would be more accurate to say 'freemasons care about its image'. Freemasonry makes no comment on its own image, and the word 'only' is unjustifiable given all the other activities freemasons engage in.

[edit on 23-9-2005 by Trinityman]

Originally posted by gps777
I have come across a Christian Mason on ATS before

I don't think that there are any non-christian regular masons on ATS.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by The Axeman
Why does it seem like it's so difficult for you to understand that the penalties are symbolic.

I don't know. I guess because just about every symbol I've bumped into had meaning.

I doubt if so many of the symbols you have bumped into have the meaning you attribute to them.

But I digress...

Of course it has meaning. It means that you take your obligation seriously, and that you would rather have those things happen to you than break an oath, or a promise, that you made before God Himself. Not that you give permission for those things to be done to you; just that you would sooner have that happen than break your word. Symbolic, not literal.

Is it really any different than the threat of being cast into the flames and suffering the eternal burning of your flesh in Hell?

Originally posted by The Axeman
When you were a kid, didn't you ever hear someone say "Cross my heart, hope to die; stick a thousand needles in my eye"?

Which, as a God-believing adult, I can say is not something I should do.

Heheh. Right. But you knew that as a kid, too, yes? Like any kid wants a thousand needles in his eye.

The point is, it's not literal. That little playground saying is the same principle; i.e. "I would rather have a thousand needles stuck in my eye than break this promise."

And no, gps777 I do not mean that the Masonic obligations are childish. I think you know what I meant.

Originally posted by The Axeman
The penalty is actually being suspended, expelled, and branded a "willfully perjured individual," which is much worse, to a good Mason (figuratively speaking), than any physical pain one could inflict.

Hm. Can a Mason come back once they're booted?

If they are suspended? Yes, I believe so. Expelled? I don't think they can come back. Done deal.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by The Axeman
I think in the context of Masonry, the differences are irrelevant to the principle. The idea is that each man depends on his own interpretation of God to hand down to him the laws which his particular idea of god admonishes him to live by.

Then as a Christian I'd see my principle different than a non-Christian, so I'd see no 'botherhood by principle'. This is my opinion so kinda kept it to myself before.

OK fair enough. I respect your opinion.

But let me ask you this:

What principle is different? The Christ factor? That's not what I am talking about; that is a matter of peculiar faith. The principles I refer to here are of Goodwill towards men, do unto others, judge not lest ye be judged, by its fruit shall the tree be known, love thy neighbor as thyself, put God (whichever god is yours) first in all things, be upright and honest, be charitable to your brothers (not necessarily Brothers), constantly strive for self improvement, and the list goes on and on. These are principles on which almost any man on the planet could agree on, be they Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, whatever.

The principles are of a moral nature, not a religios one; therefore universal to almost all men.

So to me, this says that whetever a man's personal faith dictates is what he should strive for, and the symbols merely help to remember and accentuate the sticking points of his particular faith. So the differences are indeed irrelevant.

Yeah, again don't see how this is Biblical.

*snipped Bible passage*

I do believe joining a selective organization and spending time with them as brothers is being yoked when you take an oath to them.

But you don't take an oath "to them" as far as I know. Your oath is between the man and his god, and it consists of keeping secret those few things that are not to be divulged, and to follow the moral law; it deals with asking God to help you in your endeavors to build yourself into a better man, nothing more. At least that's the gist of it, from what I know. Perhaps if I am mistaken one of the boys will set me straight.

In my opinion, this is why the Masons require a belief in a Supreme Being; without that foundation of faith (whatever htat faith may be), the Masonic teachings would be useless.

Keep in mind I am not a Mason as of yet, I've just studied the subject at length, and these are my own interpretations.

It sounds on-track from the Masons I have hear from.

Cool, then that tells me I am doing my homework well.

[edit on 9/23/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
No, but the Renaissance, along with the Reformation, could be seen as the spiritual "first shot fired" in the Enlightenment.

I think all this subjectivity is what bothers me most. "could be seen as" and "great architect" honestly tells me nothing. Like trying to interview a witness and them give answers like "maybe", "possibly", "sometimes", "perhaps", etc. It's amazing there's a distinction between "light" and "dark" at all in that case.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
As mentioned, that really doesn't have anything to do with Masonry; it's a simple fact. Galileo was condemned to death because he postulated that the earth revolves around the sun, instead of vice versa. This theory contradicted the Bible, wherein David, in his Psalm, said that the earth was "fixed and immovable". Galileo's life was spared only when he publicly recanted his theory, even though he knew it to be basically correct.

Another famous example is found in Ferdinand Magellan. He famously said: "The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round; I have seen its shadow on the moon. And I have more faith in the shadow than in the church".

Now, were the Christians who persecuted Gailileo in need of more light?

Looks to me they never had the light (God) in the first place, blatantly ignoring scripture in excange for their own 'rule of law'.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Were the Christians who told Magellan that the earth was flat in need of more light?

Any educated person knew full well the earth was round by Magellan's time. What source is this coming from? It looks like propaganda. Magellan had enough problems of his own with the commander-in-chief, the king, renouncing his own nationality, and an attempted mutiny. It would be no wonder that he'd claim the church says the earth is flat or dispute with any authority.

Expeditions were funded in those days. When the explorer got peeved, they went to another king. Just because the king would not fund his jaunt around the globe means nothing about theology. Maybe the king of portugal was wise. He lost his ship and his life, both would have cost Portugal.

What bothers me most is Magellan is being looked at as a hero here because he defied the church. I'm glad I wasn't part of his crew.

"Conditions aboard the ships were abominable. The crew began to starve as food stores were depleted. The water turned putrid and yellow in color. The crew survived on sawdust, leather strips from the sails, and rats. Without the benefit of vitamin C in fresh fruits and vegetables, the men also came down with scurvy. "

I don't see any 'church defiance' here:
" Finally in October, the fleet sighted a strait and started through it. Magellan named it the strait of All Saints, but it later was named after him."
www.mariner.org...

Originally posted by Masonic Light
You may disagree, but I think the answer here is pretty obvious.

It's obvious to me that wordly knowledge is being hailed as "the light" which Biblically is supposed to be God.


[edit on 23-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by gps777
I have come across a Christian Mason on ATS before

I don't think that there are any non-christian regular masons on ATS.

Oh but there are... They just don't necessarily advertise it.

Originally posted by The Axeman
But you don't take an oath "to them" as far as I know. Your oath is between the man and his god, and it consists of keeping secret those few things that are not to be divulged, and to follow the moral law; it deals with asking God to help you in your endeavors to build yourself into a better man, nothing more. At least that's the gist of it, from what I know. Perhaps if I am misaken one of the boys will set me straight.

No need to. You're bang on the money, as usual Mr. Axeman.

Originally posted by Nygdan
thus dispelling superstitious notions of 'christ' and redemption or anything like that.

You don't say. Another reason why a Christian should not be a Mason in my mind.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I mean, I suspect that you are concerned that masonry is saying; with faith in jesus alone, you're still in the dark and you need to get rid of that silly faith, whereas its apparently not saying anything of the sort.

That's exactly what it sounded like in your prior statement.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Nygdan
thus dispelling superstitious notions of 'christ' and redemption or anything like that.

You don't say. Another reason why a Christian should not be a Mason in my mind.

Oh, come on, man! You know good and well that's not what he meant... or perhaps you didn't read the rest of the sentance?

Originally posted by Nygdan
Also, notice that the implication is that christians were in the 'dark' because of their ignorance of the world around them, not that they were in the dark in terms of faith, ie, needed 'a light-bringer' to alter, correct, enlighten their faith and illuminate the formerly darkened metaphyscial world, thus dispelling superstitious notions of 'christ' and redemption or anything like that.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I mean, I suspect that you are concerned that masonry is saying; with faith in jesus alone, you're still in the dark and you need to get rid of that silly faith, whereas its apparently not saying anything of the sort.

That's exactly what it sounded like in your prior statement.

Only because you seem not to be paying attention... or you just made an honest mistake, one of the two.

P.S. Thanks Trinityman!

[edit on 9/23/05 by The Axeman]

Here's an interesting question. Would some of you folks allow your children to join the Boy Scouts?

From Boy Scouts of America
Vision Statement

The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

In the future Scouting will continue to

* Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;
* Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;
* Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;
* Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program.


Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

This is just my personal opinion but I'm sure the analogy has been drawn before.

Masonry and the BSA are very similar organizations,
they both aim to reinforce moral values through symbolism and stories,
both stress the importance of a faith in G-d, both are fraternal in nature
and neither requires you to be a Christian. Furthermore neither
specifically proclaim Jesus as savior, that is left to the individuals faith
and neither contain discussions of religion or politics while in a meeting is in session.

I know in my community, the local Baptist church is a primary sponsor of the local BSA Cub Scout pack
but going by Saint4Gods statements, wouldn't this be "being yoked with unbelievers"?