Concerning Lucifer in Freemasonry

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posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God


I see. A bluffing threat.


The fact that some people really wanted to kill Freemasons is no bluff. Neither do I consider the symbolic penalty a "bluff". I see it as it is: a symbol.


HOWEVER, if the prospect is guilty, he has already sworn permission for these things to happen before the Architect of the universe, has he not?


Indeed he has; however, if we, who are feeble humans, understand that it is symbolic and pertains to an allegory concerning persecution, I would assume that God, being infinitely wise, also understands this meaning.




posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Funny how when gps777 provides Biblical quote, whereas the response does not include Biblical quote. Between the two, I think I'll go with what is actually in the Book.


I've debated scripture on more than one occasion, offering plenty of quotes from the book. It gets tiring when certain people pick and choose which verse they want to take out of context to support their ever-vacillating position on Christianity. I suppose if you wanted the lengthy list that I typically use in this situation, I could U2U them to you, as it is rather off topic.



Ah, so it's a selfish organization then. Very interesting. *makes a note*


How did you get selfish out of that? Was it the part about not imposing your own principles upon others? I hardly consider that selfish.




So Masons can judge because they have a square and compass? Also interesting. *makes a note*


You're not really that dense that you can't see a "punny" figure of speech. While I may not agree with your opinions, I know you are smarter than that. And please don't put words in my mouth; I don't like the way yours taste.

Thanks.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Thanks for clarifying. Not in all cases. If your religion is serving God, and you take your orders from God, then they are one in the same:


My definition of religion is that of the Apostle James (see James 1:27). However, most define religion as a set of theological and philosophical concepts, along with ritualistic practices that celebrate such concepts.




I think we as people want to separate the two so badly so we can divide and conquer, that we overlook the core definition. All part of a slow conspiracy to "re-define" what is already known to be true. Separation of church and state. Separation of married couples (i.e. divorce). Separation of children from parents.


I'm not quite sure how the separation of church and state has anything to do with divorce or separating children from parents. In a letter to the Dansbury Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson indicates that the entire American people had recognized the importance of "building a wall of separation between church and state" in order to insure religious liberty. However, you group it with the other two, as if it's a bad thing.



How can you tell a Christian that before Masonry, he was in the dark? How can you tell (if you are Christian) another person that now he has accepted Reason Logic, and Science that they are in the light without a saving grace for eternal life?


A Christian before Masonry isn't necessarily "in the dark". Again, the entire Masonic ceremony is symbolic, and represents the historical transition from the dark ages into the Enlightenment.

Now, ignoring Masonry for a moment, you may ask: well, were Christians in the dark before the Enlightenment. I would answer, yes, there were very, very many Christians in the dark before the Enlightenment. Even the most brief and basic study of western history shows that this is undeniably the case.

As to your second question, by "light" we here refer to intellectual knowledge. Saving grace and eternal salvation is a worthy teaching: however, the Enlightenment was concerned with empirical knowledge. This doesn't mean that spiritual knowledge is not important, only that it is a different thing.

And this is why Masons get so frustrated when some people call Masonry a religion. Masonry is more than happy to leave spiritual light to religion, while it itself focuses on the empirical and ethical.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by Stegosaur
Who gave you the square and compass so that you could accurately judge anyone else or their decisions?


So Masons can judge because they have a square and compass? Also interesting. *makes a note*


Ummm, no.

While I undersand that what Steg said was a joke, because Steg and I both know a little about Masonic symbolism, it's obvious that you misunderstand. Not that you wouldn't, unless you had studied Masonic symbolism, which I'd be willing to bet you haven't.

Let me clear it up for you.

The Square and compasses are tools which the Mason uses to remember to be just and upright, and to circumscribe his passions and desires and keep them within due bounds. In other words, they are tools a Mason uses to judge himself. I know that Steg understands this, but applied it in the sense of you using them to judge others as a joke.


from: www.grandlodgeoftexas.org...

The Square, as used in Freemasonry, is an instrument with two legs that intersect at a right angle. Though there is debate regarding the exact instrument envisioned in the early rituals, there is no doubt that the square was used to measure the accuracy of angles, to ensure that they were indeed right angles. As such, it is natural for the Square to be an emblem of accuracy, integrity, and rightness. As building materials are cut to fit the building in the proper dimensions, we must also build our character, which must be tested by a moral and ethical standard represented by the Square.

From early times, the square has represented right and honesty. For Freemasons, the Square represents morality, of the ethical and right conduct that must form the basis for our every action and as the foundation of society. In an early exposure of the Masonic ritual, the question is asked, "How many make a Lodge?" The response is specific, "God and the Square." Together, God provides instruction to man to develop his moral and spiritual character, while the Square reminds us as Freemasons that we must constantly test our behavior by the Square of Virtue.

It is also important to note that we must keep God and the Square together. While the Square is an emblem of the virtuous moral, ethical, and spiritual conduct required of all Freemasons, it is our faith in God that provides the basis for that behavior. If society is not careful and loses its faith in God, then its foundation for moral and ethical conduct drifts from that decreed by God. When this occurs, men come to think that morality is of human invention and the moral law loses its meaning and power. It leads to a society without standards, which will become unstable and eventually fall.



from: www.grandlodgeoftexas.org...

...consider the Masonic symbolism of the Compasses. It is one of the first symbols presented to the new Freemason, where he is told it is dedicated to the Craft as an emblem of the self-restraint that enables him to act according to right on all occasions. The Compasses, as such, teaches the Freemason the obligation he owes to himself. That obligation needs to be made plain. It is the primary and imperative duty of circumscribing his desires and keeping his passions within due bounds. As Solomon says in Proverbs 16:32, "Better is he that ruleth his spirit than he that taketh a city."

In short, the Compasses represent self-knowledge, self-reverence, and self-control. Without these three characteristics, one's life may lead toward confusion and chaos. All three are required for the proper balance in our relationships to God, our fellow man, and ourselves. To know ourselves, our strengths and weaknesses and our limitations, is the first key to wisdom and security against many a pitfall in life. Without this knowledge, or by disregarding it, a man can go too far, exceed his limitations, and lose control of himself. By doing so, he loses some measure of his self-respect, which leads to losing respect for others and ultimately losing respect for God.

We live within physical and spiritual spheres that are both limited and unlimited. Hemmed in and restricted we strive for liberty without rule or limit. However, limitless liberty is anarchy and slavery. Liberty rests upon law, and it is a wise man who takes account of both, who knows how to qualify one by the other. The Compasses teaches the Freemason how to achieve this balance, in his physical and spiritual life.

[...]

It is fitting to close this discussion with the symbolic explanation of the Compasses provided in Akin's Manual. The words warrant our careful reflection. "The Compasses remind us of His unerring and impartial justice, which, having defined for our instruction the limits of good and evil, will either reward or punish us, as we have obeyed or disregarded His divine commands."



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by saint4God
HOWEVER, if the prospect is guilty, he has already sworn permission for these things to happen before the Architect of the universe, has he not?


Indeed he has;


Thank you. I appreciate your honesty and integrity.


Originally posted by Masonic Light
however, if we, who are feeble humans, understand that it is symbolic and pertains to an allegory concerning persecution, I would assume that God, being infinitely wise, also understands this meaning.


a conditional on which the enacting oath-giver has the option to choose or not choose to implement. Thank God the oath-giver chooses not to carry out this 'justice', because according to the oath-taker, he has given permission (under his own definition of God) for the oath-giver to exercise that right.


[edit on 22-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by Stegosaur
I've debated scripture on more than one occasion, offering plenty of quotes from the book. It gets tiring when certain people pick and choose which verse they want to take out of context to support their ever-vacillating position on Christianity. I suppose if you wanted the lengthy list that I typically use in this situation, I could U2U them to you, as it is rather off topic.


I don't need a list, but one example would certainly help. U2U me if you like, but rather have debates on the board. Who knows, maybe someone else will have the same question.


Originally posted by Stegosaur
How did you get selfish out of that? Was it the part about not imposing your own principles upon others? I hardly consider that selfish.


As a brotherhood, I'd think that the organization would be concerned with the growth of their brothers, including spiritually. How a Christian can do that without God, I find amazing. It was in response to the idea that Masons are there for self-development. I know from Masonic Light though that this is not the case. He's pointed out that there discussions but not arguments. I trust that to be the case.


Originally posted by Stegosaur
You're not really that dense that you can't see a "punny" figure of speech. While I may not agree with your opinions, I know you are smarter than that.


No really, I am dense! Keep the insults coming, gonna love you anyway. It was a paradigm on your statement.


Originally posted by Stegosaur
And please don't put words in my mouth;


I can do no such thing. All I can do is ask what you mean or discern what your saying. If I'm wrong, correct me. I think it'll help everyone understand what you're saying from all angles.


Originally posted by Stegosaur
I don't like the way yours taste.


That's colourful. Hope it served it's literary purpose for ya.


Originally posted by Stegosaur
Thanks.


Welcome.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 01:55 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
My definition of religion is that of the Apostle James (see James 1:27).


It also says there is a religion that serves God.


Originally posted by Masonic Light
However, most define religion as a set of theological and philosophical concepts, along with ritualistic practices that celebrate such concepts.


Which is why blanket statements cover "too much" including the one James is talking about in 1:27.


Originally posted by Masonic Light
I'm not quite sure how the separation of church and state has anything to do with divorce or separating children from parents. In a letter to the Dansbury Baptist Association, Thomas Jefferson indicates that the entire American people had recognized the importance of "building a wall of separation between church and state" in order to insure religious liberty. However, you group it with the other two, as if it's a bad thing.


Because we've taken it to a whole new extreme within the past few years. I agree this should not be a theocratic nation that oppresses and surpesses the right for each of us to practice our beliefs. I'm sure you've heard the "freedom of religion, not freedom from religion" speech before, so I just want to cap that by saying the church is the people. The government is the people. Can we then not see that the same people in the church are also performing the roles of public service including government? To say the government should be without anyone believing in God (or any religion) is absurdly wrong and is discriminatory. We could be saying the same thing here and getting tangled up in what the 'church' and 'state' is, but you'd have to let me know what your perception is on that to establish whether we're polar opposite or parallel.


Originally posted by Masonic Light
A Christian before Masonry isn't necessarily "in the dark". Again, the entire Masonic ceremony is symbolic, and represents the historical transition from the dark ages into the Enlightenment.


Is this transition the same as the renaissance?


Originally posted by Masonic Light
Now, ignoring Masonry for a moment, you may ask: well, were Christians in the dark before the Enlightenment. I would answer, yes, there were very, very many Christians in the dark before the Enlightenment. Even the most brief and basic study of western history shows that this is undeniably the case.


That was the meat and potatoes of what I was looking for. Thanks again for your candidness, and yet another reason why I personally could never be a Mason.


Originally posted by Masonic Light
As to your second question, by "light" we here refer to intellectual knowledge. Saving grace and eternal salvation is a worthy teaching: however, the Enlightenment was concerned with empirical knowledge. This doesn't mean that spiritual knowledge is not important, only that it is a different thing.

And this is why Masons get so frustrated when some people call Masonry a religion. Masonry is more than happy to leave spiritual light to religion, while it itself focuses on the empirical and ethical.


Looks to me like intellectual "light" is taking precedence over God's light, whereas people were still in the "dark", having God, were not being given the intelligence/knowledge of the world (the "true light"). It's like saying since I've been through college, I've spiritually stepped into the light, whereas if I didn't, I'd be in the stone ages. The Book makes clear without God there is no light (for He is the way, the truth and the light already), nor are we to pursue following/worshiping the creation instead of the creator.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
Ummm, no.

While I undersand that what Steg said was a joke, because Steg and I both know a little about Masonic symbolism, it's obvious that you misunderstand. Not that you wouldn't, unless you had studied Masonic symbolism, which I'd be willing to bet you haven't.

Let me clear it up for you.

The Square and compasses are tools which the Mason uses to remember to be just and upright, and to circumscribe his passions and desires and keep them within due bounds. In other words, they are tools a Mason uses to judge himself. I know that Steg understands this, but applied it in the sense of you using them to judge others as a joke.


See steg? It IS possible to react in a calm, rational way. Likewise Axeman, I was probing steg to get the angle (pun also intended) he was getting at, even in jest.

Thanks for the rest on it too. The only thing I don't understand is this unifying principle of the compass and square you've mentioned had "God" as the center-piece. If that's true, are you saying that the God of Jews, Christians, Muslims, and whoever else believes in one creator, are the same? Or are you saying their differences are irrelevant to the principle?

[edit on 22-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 02:12 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
I don't need a list, but one example would certainly help. U2U me if you like, but rather have debates on the board. Who knows, maybe someone else will have the same question.


”Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote (speck) that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and them shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:1-5)

“Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so unto them.” (Matt. 7:12.)

“And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” (Luke 6:31.)

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words shalt thou be condemned.” (Matthew 12:36,37)

"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?...Who will render to every man according to his deeds:...Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou committ adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonerest thou God?" (Romans 2:1-3,6,21-23)

"Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24)


Is this sufficient?




As a brotherhood, I'd think that the organization would be concerned with the growth of their brothers, including spiritually. How a Christian can do that without God, I find amazing.


Masonry is not a religion. The organization leaves spiritual development in the sense of "religion" to the member and his church. That's what churches, priests, pastors, etc are for. No one is saying that Christian Masons are doing anything without God. It's just that Masonry as an organization is not specifically addressing this in the way that a priest or pastor would perform the same function.


No really, I am dense! Keep the insults coming, gonna love you anyway. It was a paradigm on your statement.


There is a difference between a left-handed compliment and an insult, but take it however it suits you.





posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 02:24 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
See steg? It IS possible to react in a calm, rational way. Likewise Axeman, I was probing steg to get the angle (pun also intended) he was getting at, even in jest.


Yep, it IS possible. I display it once in a while, but those who are narrow-minded and judgmental usually aren't witnesses to it.

Tsk tsk tsk. So many erroneous assumptions.

[edit on 22-9-2005 by Stegosaur]



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
Hi saint4God

I started a thread on masonic obligations here which you may find interesting. I'm afraid like many threads on ATS it became a little chaotic but nevertheless it is an interesting read.


Thanks for the referral Trinityman! I subscribed but got a few to reply to first. I should be there soon. Much appreciated.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
The only thing I don't understand is this unifying principle of the compass and square you've mentioned had "God" as the center-piece. If that's true, are you saying that the God of Jews, Christians, Muslims, and whoever else believes in one creator, are the same? Or are you saying their differences are irrelevant to the principle?


I think in the context of Masonry, the differences are irrelevant to the principle. The idea is that each man depends on his own interpretation of God to hand down to him the laws which his particular idea of god admonishes him to live by.


from: www.grandlodgeoftexas.org...

When the Square and Compasses are viewed as a compound symbol, their individual symbolism takes on greater meaning. In the Entered Apprentice and Fellowcraft Degrees the Square and Compasses symbolize the earth and impress upon the Freemason the importance of controlling our desires. In the Master Mason Degree the Compasses represent those things Heavenly. Within the context of the three degrees they represent our personal journey in life where our understanding progresses from a worldly viewpoint of life to the ultimate spiritual perspective.

[...]

The Square represents the moral law that dictates our relationships with others and guides our actions here on earth. The Compasses signifies our endless pursuit of spiritual understanding and our relationship to God. Together, the Square and Compasses should constantly remind the Freemason of the balance required between the earthly and the spiritual, that our spiritual nature should rule and govern our earthly nature knowing that in the end He will dispense impartial justice and will either reward or punish us in the everlasting life according to our obedience to His divine commands while on this earth.


From my previous quote, emphasis added.


from: www.grandlodgeoftexas.org...

...God provides instruction to man to develop his moral and spiritual character, while the Square reminds us as Freemasons that we must constantly test our behavior by the Square of Virtue.

It is also important to note that we must keep God and the Square together. While the Square is an emblem of the virtuous moral, ethical, and spiritual conduct required of all Freemasons, it is our faith in God that provides the basis for that behavior...


So to me, this says that whetever a man's personal faith dictates is what he should strive for, and the symbols merely help to remember and accentuate the sticking points of his particular faith. So the differences are indeed irrelevant.

In my opinion, this is why the Masons require a belief in a Supreme Being; without that foundation of faith (whatever htat faith may be), the Masonic teachings would be useless.

Keep in mind I am not a Mason as of yet, I've just studied the subject at length, and these are my own interpretations.

[edit on 9/22/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by Stegosaur
”Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote (speck) that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and them shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:1-5)

“Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so unto them.” (Matt. 7:12.)

“And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” (Luke 6:31.)

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words shalt thou be condemned.” (Matthew 12:36,37)

"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?...Who will render to every man according to his deeds:...Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou committ adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonerest thou God?" (Romans 2:1-3,6,21-23)

"Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24)


Is this sufficient?


Music to my ears, but how is that a response to gps777's claim:


quote:
Jas.5
[12] But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

[34] But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:


I have my doubts that you are a Christian Final but if you are you should be able to understand why Christians would have strong reluctance to become a Mason.
quote:
Rom.16
[17] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
[18] For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.


Or have you moved on to say I'm judgemental? I don't get it. I will ask question about Masonry and give my assessment about the statements made, but I know very little first-hand. If I have been judgemental, then be a friend and point it out so that I may not faulter any further or cause harm.



Originally posted by Stegosaur
Masonry is not a religion.


I've heard that before, but a non-religion if that's the case, can have conflict with a religion.


Originally posted by Stegosaur
No one is saying that Christian Masons are doing anything without God. It's just that Masonry as an organization is not specifically addressing this in the way that a priest or pastor would perform the same function.


What do you mean?


Originally posted by Stegosaur
There is a difference between a left-handed compliment and an insult, but take it however it suits you.


A back-handed compliment? I'd rather be considered dense.


[edit on 22-9-2005 by saint4God]



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 02:52 PM
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Originally posted by Stegosaur
Yep, it IS possible. I display it once in a while, but those who are narrow-minded and judgmental usually aren't witnesses to it.


So I'm dense, narrow-minded and judgemental. Perhaps you'd like to tell me more about me. I'm always interested in discovering things about myself.


Originally posted by Stegosaur
Tsk tsk tsk. So many erroneous assumptions.


Pot, kettle.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
a conditional on which the enacting oath-giver has the option to choose or not choose to implement. Thank God the oath-giver chooses not to carry out this 'justice', because according to the oath-taker, he has given permission (under his own definition of God) for the oath-giver to exercise that right.


This is not the case. Since all Masons are under obligation to obey the moral law, it would of course be in violation of his own oath to carry out any such penalties.



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by saint4God
a conditional on which the enacting oath-giver has the option to choose or not choose to implement. Thank God the oath-giver chooses not to carry out this 'justice', because according to the oath-taker, he has given permission (under his own definition of God) for the oath-giver to exercise that right.


This is not the case. Since all Masons are under obligation to obey the moral law, it would of course be in violation of his own oath to carry out any such penalties.


Paradoxal indeed. Making a commitment stating false penalties. "Don't do this or I'll...not punish you" doesn't really do anything, does it? Kinda like state law
.

Fortunately our country has laws to protect the oath-taker, eh?



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Paradoxal indeed. Making a commitment stating false penalties. "Don't do this or I'll...not punish you" doesn't really do anything, does it? Kinda like state law
.

Fortunately our country has laws to protect the oath-taker, eh?


Why does it seem like it's so difficult for you to understand that the penalties are symbolic.

When you were a kid, didn't you ever hear someone say "Cross my heart, hope to die; stick a thousand needles in my eye"?

The penalty is actually being suspended, expelled, and branded a "willfully perjured individual," which is much worse, to a good Mason (figuratively speaking), than any physical pain one could inflict.

I'd also like to hear your response to my previous post.


[edit on 9/22/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Sep, 22 2005 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by gps777
I have my doubts that you are a Christian Final but if you are you should be able to understand why Christians would have strong reluctance to become a Mason.


Actually I am a Catholic...which was in my mini profile up to a few days ago. Also the Catholic church forbids Catholics from becoming Freemasons, some places actually refuse to give communion to Masons. Also no I believe that it has been discussed numerous times over numerous threads, and way to many websites.

Also I am not saying that I am right by posting something, I want to people to find flaws in what I write,that way I can know what to look up and what to say in a way further increasing my knowledege. As for the comment as to prove that no Mason worships Lucifer....I ask you to show me one who does. Sorry just got back from a game I will read the rest of the posts and answer back ASAP.



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by saint4God

gps777, I thought Jas. 5 was an abbreviation for James, but looks like I have it wrong and would like to read what you've presented in more detail. What's Jas. stand for?


You thought correct Saint,it`s an abbreviation for James.Type in oath and swear in the proximity search here for further refference.But after you mentioned it i did scratch my head, Jas?

www.hti.umich.edu...



posted on Sep, 23 2005 @ 01:10 AM
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Originally posted by Stegosaur


”Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measurement ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote (speck) that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and them shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:1-5)

“Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so unto them.” (Matt. 7:12.)

“And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.” (Luke 6:31.)

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words shalt thou be condemned.” (Matthew 12:36,37)

"Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?...Who will render to every man according to his deeds:...Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou committ adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonerest thou God?" (Romans 2:1-3,6,21-23)

"Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24)


Is this sufficient?


So i take it that this is how you are judgeing us as Christians then


If these words were`nt meant for you how do you think you can understand them?

"Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment." (John 7:24)

But does`nt this say it all for you the same one you are trying to use against Christians.

If God does not expect us to judge but judge correctly why does he then give great responsibility to his own to do just that.


[16] But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
[17] And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
[18] Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


Oh yeah and your bed time story was so cute,you misunderstand i dont give you credit for anything as of yet.Execpt for credit in not understanding from a Christian perspective.
I dont doubt you get the Satan hiss comment a lot.Its how you spew your words out.





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