Hey Cicada Welcome to the boards dude
Hope you enjoy you time here at ATS

Thanks for actually reading the topic (referring to the defintions I provided in the first post) also thanks for breaking your posting skills on my topics I thought that was prety cool Anyways back to the topic, the information that you did share actually could apply to Masonry in the sense about the symbolism of somthing that preceeds dawn. Very intersting angle thanks for brining it up.

P.S. I am still waiting for you Mr.Necro and now Neon Helment



[Edit: Forgot the P.S. ]

[edit on 9/22/2005 by The_Final]

Originally posted by The_Final


Or unless you will just stop posting in order to leave before you are in a corner in which you are unable to spew more crap about masonry out. But honestly I want to hear back from you,that goes with every other anti-mason on this board. Come one and come all!

Can you prove Final that no Mason worships Lucifer for one?

I provided a link a year or so ago to a Mason site that stated that a true Christian can not be a Mason after posting it here the link no longer works.

Who ever the individual Mason worships be it the Great Sacred Pineapple would be offensive to the True God, no?

For the Christian Mason have you ever read these?

Jas.5
[12] But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

[34] But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

I have my doubts that you are a Christian Final but if you are you should be able to understand why Christians would have strong reluctance to become a Mason.

Rom.16
[17] Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offenses contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
[18] For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

`

There is more to it Final than just picking a topic and trying to prove Mason`s right,that if you don`t get responses does`nt prove you right either.My main concern has been for the Christian Mason,if they were fully Christian before hand?I`ve said my piece before and got attacked for it but have also from some of those same Christian Masons would be very polite and understanding of my view in private messages that they sent me,its sad they could`nt be as polite in public,but then they are under observation by other Mason`s.

If a Christian Mason is comfortable with their decisions after hearing other Christian`s concerns its pointless to keep harping about it,i responded this time because of your words which sound arrogant and baiting and i give you more credit than that?.

Hi Cicada

Welcome to ATS.

Now I'm not a latin scholar, but I do know that lucis is latin for light, and I'm fairly sure that is the root of lucifer. Interesting post though.

Originally posted by gps777
Can you prove Final that no Mason worships Lucifer for one?

The great thing about Masonry is that you can worship whatever deity you want, by whatever name you choose to call It. If a Mason was worshipping "Lucifer" and such "religious practices and beliefs" encouraged and enabled this Mason to become a better man, then his philosophy and actions are not at odds with the teachings and principles of Masonry, so who cares? Being a good man is being a good man, period. Get over it. Judge someone by their actions, not what you think about their personal beliefs.

If being a Buddhist makes someone a nicer person, rather than having no faith at all, why knock what they are doing, if it improves their life and they aren't harming anyone? What right do you have to interfere? Would YOU appreciate it? I think not.

I say tend to your own garden and when you become perfected yourself, then you can tell everyone else where and how they are screwing up. Why is it so hard for fundamentalists to just let people live their own lives in peace, free from oppression, coercion and persecution... something they supposedly endured for years under tyrannical governments and even the Vatican?

Who ever the individual Mason worships be it the Great Sacred Pineapple would be offensive to the True God, no?

It amazes me that your all-knowing, all-seeing, all-loving merciful god is alternately presented as petty, jealous, spiteful, and oh-so-easily-offended by mere mortals. Do you really think a deity as great as you say he is would give a flying farg about our narrow little opinions and rituals? This is terribly inconsistent, as usual. You'd do well to read the Good Book from cover to cover and do a little critical thinking on the subject.

I have my doubts that you are a Christian Final but if you are you should be able to understand why Christians would have strong reluctance to become a Mason.

And no one one is forcing anyone with reservations to become a Mason. In fact, if you had any reservations at all, you shouldn't be petitioning anyway. What's the purpose of that??? Masonry doesn't need or want judgmental fundamentalists that only seek to cause division between people in an effort to "save someone's soul", which is really just a marketing campaign to convert (brainwash?) others to Christianity. Masonry is about bettering yourself, not bettering everyone around you in the way that you see fit.

If a Christian Mason is comfortable with their decisions after hearing other Christian`s concerns its pointless to keep harping about it

You are entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else, and insisting that your view is superior because it is some "mandate of God" as you interpret it from one text certainly doesn't make you an expert on what it takes to be a good person, or even a good Christian, for that matter. Who gave you the square and compass so that you could accurately judge anyone else or their decisions?

Oh wait. You wouldn't have a square and compass though, would you?

Hi gps777

Originally posted by gps777
Can you prove Final that no Mason worships Lucifer for one?

I think you are getting mixed up between masonry and masons. Whilst it would be impossible (and a little pointless) to try and prove that there were NO freemasons who worshiped Lucifer; the key question I think you should be asking is 'does freemasonry teach the worship of Lucifer?' If by Lucifer you mean Satan, the Devil etc the answer is an unequivocal NO. If you mean something else by Lucifer then apologies to you, but as freemasonry doesn't worship anything it doesn't really matter.

As a christian freemason myself I see no incompatibility between the two. Furthermore, having studied the arguments of anti-masonic Christians I can see that the core thrusts of their argument is based on misunderstandings about the fraternity.

Happy to discuss this with you gps777, but we are already moving off topic on this thread.

Originally posted by Trinityman
Hi Cicada

Welcome to ATS.

Now I'm not a latin scholar, but I do know that lucis is latin for light, and I'm fairly sure that is the root of lucifer. Interesting post though.

I'm certainly not a linguistic scholar myself, just a reader who found something interesting in a book. Certainly you can break it down into the latin, but Bayley goes beyond that and explores the base roots for the letters and phonetic sounds found in languages around the world. You have to keep in mind that the pantheons associated with certain areas of the world do not mean that they are the sole conception of the people living in that area at that time. Comparative mythology has shown, at the least, a paralleling of figures and mythologies throughout the Indo-European cultures, meaning the root concepts of Hinduism are the same as those of the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, Slavs, Scandinavians, Gaul, Celts, etc. The evidence for this in language are even better documented. Bayley does take this a step further with an inference of a "super-culture" (my phrase, not his) from prehistory that supplied the world population with at least the basic building blocks of their languages and philosophies. One could also argue effectively on the concept of root concepts in language and mythology deriving from genetic memory, but that's another story.

Lu=Lug, Lugh, Lleu, Llew, Lugus, Hu, Hugh, etc. Lugus=Logos, latin for divine word or reason. The Celt word for mind was hew. In Chinese Hu means sir or lord. The Egyptian khu or great hu is the shining, intangible essence or spirit. The root can be found in words like hue, humane, winsome (hu-insome), wistful, whisper, hush (saying the phrase hushabye literally means "May the light of Hu be with you"), white (hu-yt), wheat (hu-eet), wot, wist, wit, humor, whet, acute, acumen, wise, wig (hu ig), wisdom (hu is dom). The latin eu means good, soft, pleasing, well as in euphony, and euphemism. The latin for light is lux, the root of lucis. You must remember that the spoken word, and the transmission of information through phonetics, preexists the written word by a span of many, many, many thousands of years. My favorite Bayley revelation is illumen=el Hu mon=the sole lord Hu=the illuminator. Lugh was the sun so this is really a statement of science as much as it is spirituality. The sun literally is the sole light, the illuminator. The truly fascinating aspect of this is that the basic building blocks of language, letters and words, convey a transmission of esoteric information from the dawn of civilization to the present. Pretty heady.

I'm glad you found my post interesting. Thanks.

Hey Trinity,

Your correct in i did mean exactly how i worded it,as i`m aware that Mason`s worship who ever they consider to be God.

So thats one reason why i can not become a Mason as a Christian,not because i wont stand next to someone else who prays to another God,but because Freemasonry groups them all to mean the same.

For another is being born again to Christ the true light,i could not go through or be offended that in a ritual you are told that you were once in the dark and now brought into the light.

Which is sort of on topic as false light from my point of view.I can only say i hope for your sake Trinity that from a true Brothers (in the true sense of the word,not a Mason brother) view this is taken as a concern and not an attack.

Stegosaur,

In most of what you wrote would and should offend most Christian Masons though i guess you dont care about them either.

Your example of a good man?

For you to be offended by what i wrote?

I can see it as Satan`s hiss.

[edit on 22-9-2005 by gps777]

Originally posted by gps777
Who ever the individual Mason worships be it the Great Sacred Pineapple would be offensive to the True God, no?

I think you may have misunderstood the Masonic meaning of religious tolerance. All that Freemasonry says is that each man has the right to his own religious beliefs as long as they don't interfere with the rights of others, that no one should be discriminated against due to their religion, and that no one should be persecuted for them. Practically every religious person will claim to know the "True God", regardless if they are Mormon, Methodist, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, or Hindu. What one man says is offensive to God is what another will call a sacrament, and vice versa.

For the Christian Mason have you ever read these?

Jas.5
[12] But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

[34] But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

It has long been the tradition of the Church, both Catholic and Protestant, that oaths may be taken if necessary. The Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses forbid the taking of an oath, but I know of no other denominations who do. Oaths are required when testifying in court, entering into public service, and entering in the military. Lastly, the Apostle Paul put himself under oath at least 4 times in the Bible.

Originally posted by gps777


For another is being born again to Christ the true light,i could not go through or be offended that in a ritual you are told that you were once in the dark and now brought into the light.

This is a very important point, IMO, and would like to address it. Freemasonry is a product of the Enlightenment, which was that intellectual movement that led western civilization out of the dark ages and into the modern age. The Masonic allegory of coming out of darkness into light has nothing to do with Christianity or any other religion; it symbolizes man leaving the superstitions and political oppression characterized by the dark ages behind, and entering into the Age of Enlightenment, characterized by rationalism, science, and political liberty. The people of the dark ages practiced Christianity, but to say they were not in need of more light is obviously false.

Originally posted by Stegosaur
You'd do well to read the Good Book from cover to cover and do a little critical thinking on the subject.

Hi. Yes. I 've done this and still do. Funny how when gps777 provides Biblical quote, whereas the response does not include Biblical quote. Between the two, I think I'll go with what is actually in the Book.

Originally posted by Stegosaur
Masonry doesn't need or want judgmental fundamentalists that only seek to cause division between people in an effort to "save someone's soul", which is really just a marketing campaign to convert (brainwash?) others to Christianity. Masonry is about bettering yourself, not bettering everyone around you in the way that you see fit.

Ah, so it's a selfish organization then. Very interesting. *makes a note*

Originally posted by Stegosaur
You are entitled to your opinion, but so is everyone else, and insisting that your view is superior because it is some "mandate of God" as you interpret it from one text certainly doesn't make you an expert on what it takes to be a good person, or even a good Christian, for that matter. Who gave you the square and compass so that you could accurately judge anyone else or their decisions?

So Masons can judge because they have a square and compass? Also interesting. *makes a note*


[edit on 22-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by gps777
Jas.5
[12] But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

[34] But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

It has long been the tradition of the Church, both Catholic and Protestant, that oaths may be taken if necessary. The Quakers and Jehovah's Witnesses forbid the taking of an oath, but I know of no other denominations who do. Oaths are required when testifying in court, entering into public service, and entering in the military. Lastly, the Apostle Paul put himself under oath at least 4 times in the Bible.

Actually Masonic Light, this gives me cause not to swear in when testifying in court, public service or the military... my "yes" and "no" should be good enough. Just because "everybody is doing it" is no reason to jump on the 'band wagon'. Also, I'd like to see the 4 times Paul put himself under oath. I have a Book, just need the passages you're referring to.

In addition, I noticed the Masonic oath-takings call upon a very negative turn of events to occur to a person who breaks the oath. In the olde days, they call that a curse. Even the Old Testament has a nice example of why we should not swear something bad to happen if an oath is made. In a church's commitment statment (I have one in front of me), I don't see anything about throats being slit. In fact, I hear nothing about breaking the commitment at all. Funny how church is being used as the parallel here for Masonic oaths...

[edit on 22-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The people of the dark ages practiced Christianity, but to say they were not in need of more light is obviously false.

Christians need more light than God?

[edit on 22-9-2005 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God


Actually Masonic Light, this gives me cause not to swear in when testifying in court, public service or the military... my "yes" and "no" should be good enough. Just because "everybody is doing it" is no reason to jump on the 'band wagon'.

That is certainly your perogative; however, the majority of Christians, as did the Church Fathers, disagree.

Also, I'd like to see the 4 times Paul put himself under oath. I have a Book, just need the passages you're referring to.

The following are quotes from the Apostle Paul, authorized King James Version:

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers.
- Romans 1:9

Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
- II Corinthians 1:23

Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
- Galatians 1:21

For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
- Phillipians 1:8

In addition, I noticed the Masonic oath-takings call upon a very negative turn of events to occur to a person who breaks the oath. In the olde days, they call that a curse. Even the Old Testament has a nice example of why we should not swear something bad to happen if an oath is made. In a church's commitment statment (I have one in front of me), I don't see anything about throats being slit. In fact, I hear nothing about breaking the commitment at all.

Here your concerns are not without justification, but the inclusion of the ancient, symbolic penalties are not without logical explanation. These seem to have been incorporated around the same time that we were being chased around by "Holy Inquisitors", who had a bad habit of tying Masons up on a torture rack. At that time, to admit a new member was literally putting everyone's life in his hands, should he prove to be a traitor. However, even then, there is no evidence that the penalties were literal, and were most probably used in order to impress upon the candidate's mind the seriousness of his obligation to secrecy. While Masonic secrecy these days may seem childish to some people, at one point it was a matter of life and death.

Therefore, some Masonic organizations have preserved the use of these penalties in the obligations. However, the candidates are aware that these are used out of tradition, are only symbolic, and that the real penalties for violating the obligation consist of suspension or expulsion, depending on the gravity of the offense. In free countries we are no longer persecuted, but these symbolic penalties serve as a reminder of a time in which we were, and this should not be forgotten.

Originally posted by saint4God


Christians need more like than God?

I assume you meant to say "light". If so, I would say that no one needs more light than God. However, many need more light than religion. After all, God and religion are two very different things.

Most everyone in Europe was a Christian in the dark ages. And these "ages" were called "dark" for a reason. Political tyranny, ridiculous superstitions, opposition to science in almost every form, etc. The Christians used their religion to denounce Galileo and Newton; to massacre people of other faiths (and even people of their own faith who may only disagree with one or two theological points). Pre-Enlightenment Europe was in desperate need of light.

This is where religion exits, and God enters. It was God, not religion, who gave us the gifts of reason and logic, and it was God who created Nature, the study of which is science. Reason, Logic, and Science were the heralds of the Enlightenment, and when a candidate is brought from darkness to light in Masonry, it represents this transition. Casting off the chains of ignorance, and accepting those gifts that God gave him to understand the world around him. This is why I say that Masonry can only be understood in its proper historical context, because it all refers to the social conditions of the early Enlightenment.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
The following are quotes from the Apostle Paul, authorized King James Version:

For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers.
- Romans 1:9

Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.
- II Corinthians 1:23

Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not.
- Galatians 1:21

For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
- Phillipians 1:8

These are good, thank you for bringing these to me. These seem to be "God as my witness this is true" statements which the dictionary confirms as oaths. I don't see any "I promise to, under God/heaven, or else" kind of oaths. This is where an Old Testament lesson came from not to do so.

gps777, I thought Jas. 5 was an abbreviation for James, but looks like I have it wrong and would like to read what you've presented in more detail. What's Jas. stand for?

Originally posted by Masonic Light
However, even then, there is no evidence that the penalties were literal, and were most probably used in order to impress upon the candidate's mind the seriousness of his obligation to secrecy.

I see. A bluffing threat. HOWEVER, if the prospect is guilty, he has already sworn permission for these things to happen before the Architect of the universe, has he not?

I remember a lawyer glazing over a rather long piece of paper and saying, "just sign at the bottom". I don't remember God telling us to make any such deals. And yes, that does mean I read the mortgage papers for my house.

Originally posted by gps777
In most of what you wrote would and should offend most Christian Masons though i guess you dont care about them either.

If I offended any Christian Masons with my "opinion", it would be surprising. In my experience, they usually allow me to speak freely without taking it personally. To me, being thin-skinned is generally a sign of insecurity, a trait I haven't seen much of among their group. They defend themselves against outright lies and misconceptions, but seem very content with their own personal views and let others have their own as well. As I am NOT a Mason, I only speak for myself. If they take issue with what I said, I'm sure they will let me know, as you and saint4god have.

Perhaps some "Christian Masons" just think a little differently than you, but you seem to believe that any man who is a "good Christian" couldn't possibly be a Mason as well, which says to me that you have a very limited view on the subject of faith in general. I see you talking about what defines a true believer and what doesn't, yet you aren't taking into account that your perspective is only one among six billion others. Your version works for you. Great. However, it's not wise nor even your place to condemn others for the way they think if they are not infringing on the happiness of anyone else, which is what you do by telling others that their belief systems are erroneous.

I'm sorry that you were "offended" by what I wrote but I was trying to get you to think, man, instead of being a sheep and expecting everyone else to bleat along with you as a demonstration of faith. Sheesh.

I can see it as Satan`s hiss.

Yeah, yeah... like I haven't heard that one before.

I lurk under your bed at night, too, so make sure your toes are completely covered and you have a firm grip on that Spiderman flashlight.