criss angel discussion...

"I haven't really mastered the power of telekinesis, it's all illusions really, *BUY MY DVDs* and I'll even show you how it's all tricks!"

He's in it for the $$$, not to try to prove Telekinesis.

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
He's in it for the $$$, not to try to prove Telekinesis.

I have no idea what this means. He's not "in it" to prove or disprove telekinesis. He's "in it" to be an entertainer. To be as spectacular as possible. And, yes if he can make a few bucks, so what? I can name a power forward in the NBA who'll pull down 20 mil this year for being significantly less spectacular than CA.

And neither one of 'em are likely to make a direct buck off me in the next 12 months.

Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr
He's in it for the $$$, not to try to prove Telekinesis.

I have no idea what this means. He's not "in it" to prove or disprove telekinesis. He's "in it" to be an entertainer. To be as spectacular as possible. And, yes if he can make a few bucks, so what?

Yes, exactly. He's in it to be spectacular and entertain and make $$$.

If he came out and said "Yes, I can do real telekinesis!", he would face a serious backlash from people. So instead he says "I don't really have magic powers, it's all illusions, $BUY MY DVDs$ and I'll show you how...."

I still think telekinesis is real, there were reports of people doing things like levitating, causing objects to move or materializing objects out of thin air LONG before "camera tricks and film editing" existed, like hundreds or thousands of years before.....

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr

Yes, exactly. He's in it to be spectacular and entertain and make $$$.

Exactly.

If he came out and said "Yes, I can do real telekinesis!", he would face a serious backlash from people.

Backlash? If he said it and could prove it in a controlled scientific environment, he'd be even more spectacular and $$$.

So instead he says "I don't really have magic powers, it's all illusions, $BUY MY DVDs$ and I'll show you how...."

And if his DVDs show how anyone with no paranormal ability can replicate what he does, doesn't that lend credence to the fact that he has no paranormal powers?

I still think telekinesis is real, there were reports of people doing things like levitating, causing objects to move or materializing objects out of thin air LONG before "camera tricks and film editing" existed, like hundreds or thousands of years before.....

That's cool. A lot of people are with you on that, and you could be right. I just don't happen to think so, and I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise. Stage magic isn't going to do it for me. It's highly entertaining, and I enjoy it.

Sigh...Like ALL the others we have shamed into silence in this thread, I will ask you this: Tell us HOW Criss Angel walked on water in that pool. Was THAT an ' illusion '? HOW did he levitate on the golf course in front of a myriad of witnesses, with no proprs or camera tricks or cranes? Was THAT an ullusion too?

The problem with your statement is this: Merely SAYING that he is an illusionist while not saying HOW the things he does can possibly BE an illusion, is less than a satisfying response. Criss Angel does NOT show how he does the things he does, except for some minor stage illusions. He does NOT tell how he levitates, or walks on water. You are mistaken. those dvd's are NOT an expose of his; that is ridiculous. You have not seen them.

If you saw an astronaut floating outside the space shuttle WITHOUT a space suit on, would you just say " Hey, he is an ASTRONAUT for pete's sake, he is supposed to float around in space"; all the while refusing to see that the space suit is missing. Well, the EVIDENCE is missing that shows ANY props, supports, cranes, wires, magnets, etc. that could POSSIBLY explain how he is able to defy gravity, the laws of physics,etc.

And, Criss Angel did NOT state that he had no abilities or powers, ONLY that they are NOT ABNORMAL, they are not supernatural, they are very natural. THAT is the key: everything that Criss and David and Cyril do, other than the illusions that can be explained by sleight of hand, etc, are REAL AND GENUINE abilities that EVERY human being has inherent in their natures. THAT is what Criss was saying, not that it is all illusion. He never says that. He is trying to get the thick to see what he means;it is all natural.

So, unless you can give us SPECIFIC answers as to HOW he could possibly : walk on water in front of dozens of witnesses, many within inches of his feet, with camera's rolling and NO evidence of any supports; also, tell us HOW he is able to levitate high in the air, in broad daylight, with NO visible, or presumably INvisible cranes or supports or wires,etc.

Just saying, " it must be an illusion ', is not a satisfactory answer to the issue. An 'illusion ' is usually a deflection of the attention so that a sleight of hand can be done; with Criss and others, ALL attention is on the performer; there are NO distractions, no way to hide some prop, no way that wires can hang from the sky. So unless you have an intelligent and feasible explanation, the assumption must NOT be made that it is somehow all a trick and that we are too stupid and unobservant to see the wires and cranes,etc.

So far, not ONE person has stated a reasonable hypothesis as to how it can be done, OTHER than the obvious, which is by natural and rarely acheived abilities to alter or change the laws of physics; or rather, manuipulate the physics and gravity, etc. No cranes, no wires, no camera tricks, witnesses who are NOT paid and who NEVER claim to be in on some hoax with Criss or the others...NO, it is plain and clear; the abilities that Criss,et al exhibit are beyond the comprehension of some, and too scary for some, but for others, like me and many more, it is just a confirmation of what we have believed all along; there is more under sun than meets the eye, and we are seeing the beginning of the rebirth of the avatars, the resurgence of the soothsayers and the magicians of old.

In ancient times a few people could do these things also, some were branded ' witches ' or other heretical terms and killed, some others were able to live and pass their knowledge on to others, as their societies held them in reverence and not fear , the ' merdicine man ' or ' shaman '.

But today it is being used to entertain and amuse and confound ..and that is OK. It challenges the narrow minded to open up, it validates the intellectuals who have known this truth for a long time, and it serves to wake people up to accepting that their eyes may NOT be deceiving them when they see things that their brains cannot wrap around yet. those here who say that it is all illusion without a real answer fall into the category of those who are not ready to admit that the world is not really as they have known it; it can be a scary thing to accept that some other guy can fly but YOU cannot!!

Either practice and do it yourself, or accept that you are not dedicated enough to do so, but do NOT imply without sound and logical evidence that it is all somehow ' illusions ' as a blanket term..that has no validity, no answer, no logic, no more chance at being the truth than any other viewpoint that does not answer the CENTRAL issue: HOW, specifically, can you imagine that he pulls off these events like he does if it is all ' illusion'. Tell us how ; you do not have to be perfect or an expert on illusions, just give rational observations as to HOW it could be done.

Just remember, NO invisible cranes, no invisible wires hanging from an invisible helicopter, no legions of bought off witnesses who always stay silent...just some sound and viable ways that it MIGHT be done, OK? That will be satisfactory.. if what you propose is not ridiculous or totally lacking likelihood greater than accepting the main premise I assert. OK? We will see what you can come up with that satisfies the intellect and the evidence. I am looking forward to your cogent and specific response.

If you are able to do so, you will be the first on this thread , and will open up a whole new paradigm to discuss and explore. We are all ears!!

Originally posted by yeahright

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr

If he came out and said "Yes, I can do real telekinesis!", he would face a serious backlash from people.

Backlash? If he said it and could prove it in a controlled scientific environment, he'd be even more spectacular and $$$.

Yes, Backlash. Look at how people like Greer for example, are treated when they say they can do some of these things for real.

So instead he says "I don't really have magic powers, it's all illusions, $BUY MY DVDs$ and I'll show you how...."

And if his DVDs show how anyone with no paranormal ability can replicate what he does, doesn't that lend credence to the fact that he has no paranormal powers?

But that's just it, NO ONE else HAS replicated what he does! Not even guys like Blaine.

If it really were all camera tricks and film editing, and his DVDs explain how it's done, then other people WOULD be replicating his best illusions - but they are not.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Sigh...Like ALL the others we have shamed into silence in this thread, I will ask you this: Tell us HOW Criss Angel walked on water in that pool. Was THAT an ' illusion '? HOW did he levitate on the golf course in front of a myriad of witnesses, with no proprs or camera tricks or cranes? Was THAT an ullusion too?

Anyone shamed into silence on this thread did it to themselves. I think it's more "nothing to see here" than shame. Believe what you want, it's no skin off my onion.

The problem with your statement is this: Merely SAYING that he is an illusionist while not saying HOW the things he does can possibly BE an illusion, is less than a satisfying response. Criss Angel does NOT show how he does the things he does, except for some minor stage illusions. He does NOT tell how he levitates, or walks on water. You are mistaken. those dvd's are NOT an expose of his; that is ridiculous. You have not seen them.

How does a surgeon do brain surgery? How about a heart transplant? How do you build a superconducting super collider? Can you tell me exactly? If I said it was "witchcraft" and since you can't prove me wrong, would that be acceptable?

If you saw an astronaut floating outside the space shuttle WITHOUT a space suit on, would you just say " Hey, he is an ASTRONAUT for pete's sake, he is supposed to float around in space"; all the while refusing to see that the space suit is missing. Well, the EVIDENCE is missing that shows ANY props, supports, cranes, wires, magnets, etc. that could POSSIBLY explain how he is able to defy gravity, the laws of physics,etc.

Show me one, then we'll go there.

And, Criss Angel did NOT state that he had no abilities or powers, ONLY that they are NOT ABNORMAL, they are not supernatural, they are very natural. THAT is the key: everything that Criss and David and Cyril do, other than the illusions that can be explained by sleight of hand, etc, are REAL AND GENUINE abilities that EVERY human being has inherent in their natures. THAT is what Criss was saying, not that it is all illusion. He never says that. He is trying to get the thick to see what he means;it is all natural.

What he was saying is abundantly clear to me. Yes he's trying to get "the thick" to see what he means. We obviously disagree on who "the thick" are.

Either practice and do it yourself, or accept that you are not dedicated enough to do so, but do NOT imply without sound and logical evidence that it is all somehow ' illusions ' as a blanket term..that has no validity, no answer, no logic, no more chance at being the truth than any other viewpoint that does not answer the CENTRAL issue: HOW, specifically, can you imagine that he pulls off these events like he does if it is all ' illusion'. Tell us how ; you do not have to be perfect or an expert on illusions, just give rational observations as to HOW it could be done.

There are no leprechauns. I can't prove it. He's a showman. His whole deal is in doing the inexplicable. CA has paranormal abilities like Harry Potter is real. He's just good at what he does. If I could explain it, he wouldn't be so good.

Just remember, NO invisible cranes, no invisible wires hanging from an invisible helicopter, no legions of bought off witnesses who always stay silent...just some sound and viable ways that it MIGHT be done, OK? That will be satisfactory.. if what you propose is not ridiculous or totally lacking likelihood greater than accepting the main premise I assert. OK? We will see what you can come up with that satisfies the intellect and the evidence. I am looking forward to your cogent and specific response.

Here's the deal- show me any illusionist (or whatever you choose to call CA) performing their supernatural paranormal acts in a scientifically controlled environment using only their paranormal ability, and I'll buy.

You want to believe "it's real"? That's fine. Criss and I know better.

Originally posted by MrdDstrbr

Yes, Backlash. Look at how people like Greer for example, are treated when they say they can do some of these things for real.

Finally, a point of agreement. Criss is every bit as "real" as Greer. How odd that Criss even openly admits to trickery and people still ...

nevermind.

Of course I KNEW that no one could touch my challenge, they never do. And of course the DVD's do NOT show anything about the most famous events; walking on water, flying, etc. The doubters will cling to ANY piece of ' evidence ' no matter how irrelevant it is to the subject!!

These people could never debate formally; obfuscation and innuendo are not permitted, only strong points and evidence, which the nay sayer's are all totally lacking. They CANNOT and WILL not get into the meat of the matter; if they were to do so their inadequate replies would be so telling that they would lose all credibility instantly. This way it just takes them a little longer to lose it!!

Criss can walk on water!! Criss can levitate without props!! Criss can change material reality naturally by his innate abilites, long practiced and honed. No one can refute this with evidence. Done.

Oh, and YEAHRIGHT: If it is " INEXPLICABLE " then that means , by definition, that there IS NO EXPLANATION for it, right? With me so far? OK.

It is only ' inexplicable ' to those people who ignore the obvious answer in favor of saying ' There IS no answer ". !! You people amaze me with the boldness of illogic and total lack of substance. There IS an explanation, and it is the one that you refuse to see and will not refute like I asked you to do.

It is NOT enough for an intelligent person to say ' it is inexplicable ' when ALL of the posibilities have not been ruled out. That is plain logic and CANNOT be gotten around. You leave out the possibility that it is what it appears to be, and scientific inquiry CANNOT be valid if ANY possibilities are left out before the facts are all known. It is just like the people who insist that the terrorists did 9-11 and not the inside job certainty that anyone with cognitive abilities knows is true: The refusal to allow the possibility that you fear is dishonest and takes you out of the game intellectually.

No one can be taken seriously if they say that there is no explanation while the most obvious, intelligent and factual choice is apparent and plain to see. It is denial of the worst type; willful and brazen. You did not give me even ONE example of HOW you could possibly imagine that Criss pulls it off; it is that your imagination is limited or that you call everything beyond your understanding and comprehension " inexplicable "?

There are no other choices, now are there? If you cannot conceive of how it can be done, then maybe, just maybe you should consider the possibility thaty there are things going on that are beyond your ability to accept and understand, and that this has made you resort to vacant and inadequate replies. There is no shame in admitting that you cannot comprehend something, but there IS shame is trying to get intelligent people to believe that all of the evidence, all of the witnesses , all of the film, all of the 'miracles ' are somehow fake and a set up and an illusion.

Well, the odds are a lot greater that Criss and the others are real than there is that it is all a hoax done with invisible props, invisible supports, invisible wires coming from an open sky. Your belief is so much farther out there than ours that is it takes a leap of faith into the Twilight Zone to believe you, and only our eyes and senses and the evidence to believe that what we are seeing is in fact what it is. It is far more likley that Criss Angel can walk on water than it is to believe that there are invisible helicopters and invisible wires and invisible cranes, etc.

You give no evidence, no proof, no answers, just a denial with no facts. Sorry, but until you can do better than this, we can safely asume that it is not US who are beliving foolishness, but those who wear blinders in their minds and deny all the evidence.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Criss can walk on water!! Criss can levitate without props!! Criss can change material reality naturally by his innate abilites, long practiced and honed. No one can refute this with evidence. Done.

It's not really evidence though is it. I've only seen the guy on television and to me that doesn't quite come close to being certified evidence. As someone above suggested, get him in a controlled environment with people he doesn't work with (I.e none of his crew what so ever) and take it from there.

I'm just speaking how I would react if I had his gifts. I would want to show the world my supernatural abilities. I can walk on water and levitate - it would be huge shocking news for the whole globe. Yet he only makes a television show and sells DVD's. It's all done for money. Not much of a supernatural prophet is he?

And again:

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Criss can walk on water!! Criss can levitate without props!! Criss can change material reality naturally by his innate abilites, long practiced and honed.

You chant out these sentences as though it's 100% proven to be accurate and legitimate. If you can show me him doing his 'magic' in a controlled experiment then that would be near to evidence. You're stating that doing these things, on television, with his crew, and plots, and research, and that what he does it all for money is evidence? How? And that he has learnt these abilities over a long period of time putting a lot of effort into them and now he's a super human? How do you know this? Again, your making up false claims based on absolutely nothing. Are you his friend, his brother or a family relative who can verify these claims that he was born with a special gift and now he's not of this planet doing world defying feats of brilliance? There's too many doubts going to go on in peoples minds because it's all put forward like a show. Indeed it probably is just that - a show.

You're shouting down other peoples opinions claiming that only yours is correct and that people who doubt him are completely wrong, but you have presented NO EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS! NONE AT ALL!

Now please, either stop shouting down people who have their opinions, which I might add, they are completely right to do so because, like an asshole everyones got one. Or stand up tall, with your research in hand, proving once and for all that Criss is a supernatural being, greater than all mankind.

You seem to have one warped mind eyewitness86 who has been clearly taken along for a ride. You type here saying that it's all natural, yet have no evidence of which to back up your claims. Insanity at its best.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Of course I KNEW that no one could touch my challenge, they never do. And of course the DVD's do NOT show anything about the most famous events; walking on water, flying, etc. The doubters will cling to ANY piece of ' evidence ' no matter how irrelevant it is to the subject!!

These people could never debate formally; obfuscation and innuendo are not permitted, only strong points and evidence, which the nay sayer's are all totally lacking. They CANNOT and WILL not get into the meat of the matter; if they were to do so their inadequate replies would be so telling that they would lose all credibility instantly. This way it just takes them a little longer to lose it!!

Criss can walk on water!! Criss can levitate without props!! Criss can change material reality naturally by his innate abilites, long practiced and honed. No one can refute this with evidence. Done.

I really hope you are saying all this with much sarcasm intended

If not dont watch these videos as it may spoil your view of your hero

www.youtube.com...

Also I will edit to post the one of him walking on plexi glass I mean water if I can find it again...

Sort of takes some of the fun out of watching the stunts if you see them debunked/explained some would probably rather not deny ignorance and choose to let themselves be fooled for the purpose of entertaiment which is what these guys are here for!

(of course if you choose to still believe you could theroize Chris is merely showing how his trick could be done with a prop but since he does it on his show and you dont see the prop in plain sight it is real...)

I wont be reading the entire thread, but in answer to the post above, the walking on water was REALLY done with plexiglass columns. I watched a video on how it was done some time ago. The pool was cleared of all swimmers except for the ones in on the trick. They didn't want anyone accidentally hitting the columns and getting hurt. Watch the footage of him doing the trick, if I remember correctly, the water breaking over the columns behaved differently then surrounding water. Sorry, but this is a trick. really.

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Oh, and YEAHRIGHT: If it is " INEXPLICABLE " then that means , by definition, that there IS NO EXPLANATION for it, right? With me so far? OK.

Okay my last point and then I'm done. Apparently, you weren't "with me" so let me be more clear.

His deal is to do the inexplicable. If you can't explain it, then he's done his job. Once you can explain it, it's no longer inexplicable, and no fun as a trick. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.

Again HIS DEAL is to do the inexplicable. So for those of us who have no idea how he does what he does, it has a WOW factor and entertainment value.

If YOU want to believe he does something more than sophisticated stage magic and trickery, goody for you. And if you go used car shopping, please take a responsible adult with you.

And a good day to all.

Originally posted by yeahright
Here's the deal- show me any illusionist (or whatever you choose to call CA) performing their supernatural paranormal acts in a scientifically controlled environment using only their paranormal ability, and I'll buy.

Yeahright,

Be careful what you ask for.

But if that is all that you require...

In June, 1974, Matthew Manning & Uri Geller, Under Strict Laboratory Conditions, Tested Favorably To Each Having Genuine Psychokinetic Or Telekinetic Ability

Comments From Scientists, Psychiatrists, & High-Ranking Government Officers - Like Apollo Astronaut Dr. Edgar D. Mitchell, Dr. Wernher von Braun (NASA Scientist & Father of the Rocket - U.S.A.), & Colonel John Alexander (NSA) Who All Attest To Uri Geller's Telekinetic Ability

Are you now ready to buy?

Woman sawed in half is Rose Siggins, go and do google search on her if you want more info.

Criss Angel has never claimed to be anything but an Illusionist.


Also. Here is a site i found that explains how to do some of the cool street magic tricks. www.learn-street-magic.com.... I'm sure there are many more but I'm too lazy to search right now.

telekinesis? Why not? Only $88.95!! Wait thats quite pricey actually XD.






[edit on 18-7-2007 by Sureiyaa]

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Are you now ready to buy?

With all due respect Paul, no. I don't see anything there where Mr. Geller performed under rigorous scientific controlled situation. The people quoted here were observing as any audience member at a show would be.

In addition, the source being Mr. Geller's website, lends itself to the distinct possibility that he is exaggerating the quote, taking it out of context, or even possibly making it up out of whole cloth.

Maybe not. The basic point is, I still have yet to see anything from a legitimate peer reviewed scientific source (in other words something other than anecdotal testimony) that would cause me to believe Criss Angel or Uri Geller or any other popular entertainer is in possession of powers paranormal, supernatural, or anything other than good skilled technique at illusion.

I know what you believe about this Paul. And I'm not about to slam you for it. I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything about everything, or even everything about anything for that matter.

But this one's still a No Sale. For me.

Definitely great skills. What do you think about this.

If these guys ACTUALLY had so called 'powers' or 'supernatural abilities' don't you think the American government would grab them and hide them in a moments notice? They would disappear and be burried just like they do for everything else.

The government is so paranoid about the 'general public' knowing 'secrets' like aliens and what not that I would think Criss angel and david blaine would disappear completely if they actually had 'powers'

I think people that claim they do have powers such as Telekinesis, mind reading, stuff like that (which I do think is possible) do not com forward because I think if they did on a public level such as a TV show or some kind of sideshow act - the government would grab them and try to force them to become some kind of weapon or just hide them from public view until they perished.

Suuure, the govt. is going to kidnap Criss Angel because he can do things that have been replicated in the lab's for decades; proven physics of esoteric natures is not unheard of in the govt., now is it?

You guys still do not see it, do you? You do not believe film, ( so you do not believe anything you have seen on film,Ok)all of the witnesses were paid and forever silent, plexiglas columns that the swimmers cannot see or touch..Do you really believe that drivel? ONE time is all it would take for a ' paid witness ' to spill the beans; all those people can rermain silent forever? For what? You amaze me.

NO ONE , still, has told me ONE way that it could conceivably be done; not one. All you can do is give us the same old tired ' must be a trick ' even though no evidence exists.

Maybe YOU are satisfied when you see something that is ' inexplicable' ( which to you means that Criis ' did his job ' ) but the inquiring mind wants to know how seemingly impossible feats are performed. I am NOT content to hide my head, and mind, in the sand while miracles are happening around me. Better to check it out and see what is it, and what it is, is what it seems to be. you are totally unconvincing and lack any solid observation and no proof.

ANSWER this question please : How do you think that Criss Angel levitated on the golf course. Logical and intelligent answers that fall within the realm of possibility. Please. WE keep waiting but you never discuss it or show how. And " I heard somewhere that there were columns .." is NOT good enough.

Until someone tells HOW it could be done GIVEN THE EVIDENCE AT HAND, just like in any investigation. If you cannot, then admit you are stumped and at least be honest. It is DIS honest to make spurious claims and silly gossip unsupported by evidence. Dis prove it or relent, or appear shallow and unable to form complex abstract scenarios, thus explaining your inability to see the truth.

to be honest lots of his tricks I'm stumped about.

and I'll tell you right now that I do believe that people can perform stuff that others see as impossibilities. Hell, I wish I could.I read about this kind of stuff all the time. I tell other people about it (quite a lot of people I bring up weird stuff I read on ATS all the time in group conversation) and they just think I'm nuts.

Quite frankly I think anyone that doesn't believe people can perform these things, or people that believe we're the only intelligent civilization in the universe are very ignorant and need to open their eyes. (I know aliens are off-topic but I read about them a lot and I find that stuff really interesting/fascinating)

I'm not disagreeing that Criss has skill, but he said in his own words that he doesn't have supernatural powers or anything of the like as stated above.


As for proving him wrong. There's lots of ways people can think he's a fake. For example his levitation. Obviously one would think "oh it's a crane" "oh it's a wire" etc etc. Yes he has a small crowd, but did you ever stop the think that crowd is paid enough to keep their mouth shut? It's not an impossibility.

Like I said, I'm not saying he's a total fake, or that he's not brilliant because he is. I watch his shows a lot and im stunned and amazed time and time again. I always think in the back of my head though of possible ways he could be doing it without just immediately going "oh gosh Criss Angel is a God," and just leaving it at that.


btw makes me think of a thing david blaine did. Anyone see the one where he was walkin down the street and talked to some lady in front of a jewely store and there was a nice watch in the window. Then he put a piece of newspaper up against the window, put his arm through the glass, grabbed the watch and gave it to her. But then she said she didn't want to keep it and he replaced it with her own watch which at the time was on the pedestal in the window? That's some cool stuff.

The thing is, with these guys, certain things make me think "oh it's fake" and others make me think "wow that's amazing" Like the stunt above, that's cool to watch and you can't immediately think of a way that they could possibly do it. Whereas things like levitation, or escaping a box, or untying yourself from a straight jacket...make me immediately think of a way it could be done, like rigged ropes, lines/cranes out of view, etc.

As for the above poster. What proof do you have that these are NOT illusions and Criss angel truly has powers other than none of the members of the audience have come forward to say he's a fraud, because honestly, I don't think that's a valid comment.