criss angel discussion...

Paul, I know you like to bring up my NDE...somehow you think it legitimizes your faith in Chris Angel....or hurts my argument against Chris Angel. This isn't the case....the video posted above proves beyond any reasonable doubt that he uses digital manipulation, actors, wires and creative editing....but you continue to dismiss it...

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for you and think you are a very gifted person of great intelligence, that's why it's so hard for me to see you post the way you are in this thread.





[edit on 7/2/2007 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by kinglizard
If he could really levitate, he wouldn't need to fake ANY of them no matter the height.

Not true.

That is not how a Gift of Telekinesis operates.

You can't turn it on and off like a light switch

For example, Uri Geller, who, under strict laboratory conditions, tested favorably to having a Gift of Telekinesis. But he was also later exposed - while on tour - to have a device up his sleeve to help him do it when performing.

Why?

Because his Gift was there for him maybe 70% of the time. It was for the other 30% that he felt the need for an electronic device to cover the slack when he was performing and the energy wasn't there for him.

Does that mean that he doesn't or didn't have a Gift of TK?

No.

That is how a Gift of Telekinesis operates. It does not come from within the body or brain. It comes from without. Which is why psychic abilities are traditionally referred to as Gifts of the Spirit and not Gifts of the Brain.

Even the prophet Issa/Jesus couldn't turn the power on and off at will. He had to wait for the telepathic go-ahead for his own miracles of healing, telekinesis, the creation of bread and fish, and the changing of water into wine, to occur through him and around him - BECAUSE the power did not stem from within but from Spirit.

By the way, Criss Angel was filmed turning water into beer.

I wonder if he can change water into imported Italian Sangria?

Hmmm. That would be nice.

[EDIT: In response to your last post, if you are going to believe in NDE's, Jesus, and that Jesus had various Gifts of the Spirit (including manifestation, levitation, and telekinesis in general), then you should be open to the idea that someone other than Jesus can also have a Gift of Telekinesis

This being a logical unfoldment of metaphysical understanding and spiritual education. ]



[edit on 2-7-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Paul, I guess it just comes down to faith.

You have faith in Chris Angel like I have faith in Christianity and Jesus. You cannot prove your faith just as I cannot prove mine.

My problem lies with the proof that CA faked his levitation...video proof.

Maybe Telekinesis is possible but it's been proved that Chris Angel faked his on at least one account. How does that not bring into doubt the rest?

I may be beating on a dead horse, and maybe someone posted this already, but Criss Angel is an Illusionist.

Video

He shows here how does his levitate, so yes some people can be fooled by a trick like this and not be paid, but the majority of the people "ARE" indeed paid by-standers. I mean why would he have to use a trick like this to levitate several inches off the ground when he supposedly levitates across buildings.

Link to very bad acting

Even Ice Cube can't act surprised, that's how Bad Criss Angel's show is.

sorry folks, it's a TV show called MindFreak.

If you really think he performs super natural magic...Wow...just Wow.

Originally posted by kinglizard

the video posted above proves beyond any reasonable doubt that he uses digital manipulation, actors, wires and creative editing....but you continue to dismiss it...

I wouldn't say that at all. It highlighted some discrepancies that hint that there were multiple takes perhaps done at different times of day, and all edited together later, but it definitely isn't proof of wires and paid actors!

Where's your footage of CA's production team fitting CA with a harness and wires? Where's your footage of them setting up a huge crane or a helicopter or something to lift him into the air and carry him across? Where's your footage of all the audience and witnesses being paid off to ignore the giant crane in the sky and all the other setup going on and act all shocked and amazed at the stunt?

I'd also like to see Criss Angel healing others. Something which of course, a true prophet would be more interested in than merely performing tricks.

Originally posted by yeahright
I saw Siegfried and Roy do stuff on a stage in Vegas 20+ years ago that were truly mind blowingly spectacular. And it's only gotten better since then.

There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between doing those things on city sidewalks, parks, and roads (without the advantages of electrical and mechanical equipment, mirrors, trap doors, fiber optics, wires, props, computers, etc.) versus doing it on high-tech and specially designed stages often used by illusionists who are not as successful as Criss Angel.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Paul, I guess it just comes down to faith.

You have faith in Chris Angel like I have faith in Christianity and Jesus. You cannot prove your faith just as I cannot prove mine.

My problem lies with the proof that CA faked his levitation...video proof.

Maybe Telekinesis is possible but it's been proved that Chris Angel faked his on at least one account. How does that not bring into doubt the rest?

The same argument can be said about Jesus/Issa. There is mounting evidence that he never rose from the dead or even went on the cross, that he lived to be an old man in India, and that just before dying at the age of 80 he declared that he was the Galilean messiah.

Would you like me to post that link again?

I have no faith in Criss Angel or in the prophet Issa/Jesus. My understanding of telekinesis and my objective analysis over the years is how I know CA and others (like David Blaine and Uri Geller but to a lesser extent than Angel) have a Gift of TK.

And you are also ignoring the testimony of 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan who stated in here that he was levitated 15 feet in the air by Criss Angel. In which case, no faith is required.

Or do you think he was lying?

First comes the telekinetic miracles...then comes the knowledge.

Duh people wake up it's #ing T.V. they edit it and then show it DUH

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
There is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between doing those things on city sidewalks, parks, and roads (without the advantages of electrical and mechanical equipment, mirrors, trap doors, fiber optics, wires, props, computers, etc.) versus doing it on high-tech and specially designed stages often used by illusionists who are not as successful as Criss Angel.

I agree. Hence my "things have improved via technique, technology, etc." remark. No, I can't explain how he does it. My 13 year old son has a couple of little magic gimmicks that I can't figure out either. So the fact I can't explain Mr. Angel's secrets is neither here nor there.

I don't think I'm adding anything to this thread so I'll bow out with this - when there is a scientifically published and peer reviewed document that says levitation is real, I'll accept it.

Until then, it's all good stage illusion and glorified parlor tricks which have great entertainment value but shouldn't be confused with actual paranormal power.

IMHO.

anyway. I like you, Paul, but on this we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by sweftl337
I'd also like to see Criss Angel healing others. Something which of course, a true prophet would be more interested in than merely performing tricks.

You know...I would like to see that too.

Ah...but if he did that then he would have to admit that he had powers or a Gift, wouldn't he?

And that would greatly dissipate his multi-million dollar enterprise, right out the prophetic window of opportunity

Just because someone has a Gift does not mean that he fits within the parameters of what we may think a prophet should do or be.

Paul, Yes, you can find and post all sorts of information that brings into doubt Christianity and Jesus. I already said it is a faith, my FAITH, and that I cannot prove it to you you or anyone.

It is you that has been trying to draw parallels between your faith in Chris and my faith in Christianity and Jesus.

AGAIN:

My problem lies with the proof that CA faked his levitation...video proof.

Maybe Telekinesis is possible but it's been proved that Chris Angel faked his on at least one account. How does that not bring into doubt the rest?

Hi yeahright,

You won't find "a scientifically published and peer reviewed document that says levitation is real." Simply because there is too much prejudice in most but not all of the scientific community to allow that to happen.

However, go to Uri Geller's site. You will find statements by various scientists and other credible people about his ability to perform telekinesis.

Originally posted by kinglizard
It is you that has been trying to draw parallels between your faith in Chris and my faith in Christianity and Jesus.

Yes, I have drawn parallels because both have demonstrated (the latter more hazily in documentation) to have a Gift of Telekinesis.

Originally posted by kinglizard
AGAIN:

My problem lies with the proof that CA faked his levitation...video proof.

Maybe Telekinesis is possible but it's been proved that Chris Angel faked his on at least one account. How does that not bring into doubt the rest?

Because all it takes is ONE time to be REAL.

AGAIN:

Explain how Criss Angel does his high levitations, in front of hundreds of eyewitnesses, without the benefit of camera tricks, props, wires, helicopters, cranes, etc.

Paul Richard, you're bringing up Jesus Christ, as I expected you would. What you wrote implies that Criss Angel cannot heal another because he would have to admit that he has 'POWERS', thus you present him as someone almost greater than God himself - not even daring to reveal his majesty through working in accordance with God! Imagine that? However, you mention Jesus Christ in the same breathe, now why is that?

Can you not see how foolish this is becoming since Joshua Emmanuel (Jesus Christ) never lived to be past the age of 33.33 years? Christ never actually died but Jesus did die at age 33.33. You're mixing in allot of assumptions here which are not helping validate your claims. Did you know that modern science will soon discover that we stop growing (physically/stronger/larger/final puberty) around age 33 and not in the early 20's? Edgar Cayce alluded to this as well. In this example, "33.33" is significant and just one small reason why perhaps you've missed something in your many assumptions. Could this be why I felt it best, for this particular discussion at least, to be leaving out Jesus Christ?

How will you know when Christ comes back and where did He go if he isn't already here now? Jesus Christ will not come again in flesh because He (Christ) comes on a 'cloud' of Aether, or a spiritual second coming.

So anyone who is seeing him coming from the east or from the west, or from the mountains or hills are not seeing Christ. So why are you implying that any MASTER can do this unless you deny the Unique Importance of the Christ Event?

Do you like pushing similar nonsense as Lucis Trust that the Christ can be manifested by any so-called Prophet with abilites? If so, you are diminishing the vast importance of the "Mystery of Golgotha" or the "Christ Event".

One deception is that many Christians, Muslims, Jews and other religious people will accept that Jesus comes back in flesh.

Another deception is almost the flip side of it - that any MASTER can manifest the CHRIST.

We must deny BOTH these falsehoods.

No-where in the Bible does it say He comes back in flesh. It says he comes on a 'cloud'. What does 'cloud' represent when translated correctly, if it is not something Spiritual to comprehend! And it does not mean than an adept can INCARNATE a CHRIST PERSONALITY.

We already had HIM appear in Flesh over 2000 years ago. A few people today have already experienced the 'Second Coming' and I do not mean those who claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus, or those who claim to hear Jesus speaking to them.

Criss Angel performing parlor tricks is very bad use of our ability to prove that we are anything even close to Christ!

So I advise we leave it out!



[edit on 2-7-2007 by sweftl337]

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Because all it takes is ONE time to be REAL.

A more reasonable argument would be that it only takes proof of one faked levitation to be fake.

You recognize that he faked that one levitation and insist that it doesn't mean he faked the rest. Well I agree....proof of one faked levitation is only proof that the one levitation was faked, but it brings into serious doubt the other levitations. As a matter of fact the only way you could dismiss this is to turn a blind eye have great faith. Though I'm not sure if yours in in Mr. Angel or in that you believe telekinesis is possible and want to latch onto this to prove your faith.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Explain how Criss Angel does his high levitations, in front of hundreds of eyewitnesses, without the benefit of camera tricks, props, wires, helicopters, cranes, etc.

You assume or have faith that "Criss Angel does his high levitations, in front of hundreds of eyewitnesses, without the benefit of camera tricks, props, wires, helicopters, cranes, etc. ". When in fact it's been proved that in at least one account he used digital manipulation, creative editing, wires and actors. Please tell me how that doesn't bring into doubt the rest of his performances?

You say you don't have faith in Chris Angel but you prove otherwise in your posts and arguments.

Originally posted by kinglizard

A more reasonable argument would be that it only takes proof of one faked levitation to be fake.

You recognize that he faked that one levitation and insist that it doesn't mean he faked the rest. Well I agree....proof of one faked levitation is only proof that the one levitation was faked, but it brings into serious doubt the other levitations. As a matter of fact the only way you could dismiss this is to turn a blind eye have great faith. Though I'm not sure if yours in in Mr. Angel or in that you believe telekinesis is possible and want to latch onto this to prove your faith.

Well, let's assume for a second that he can do some real telekinesis, like levitation, and he is ALSO a trained illusionist and he can do many tricks with props, sleight of hand etc.

I think it's like Paul Richard said - he is a shrewd businessman, and he is creating huge confusion by doing SOME real stuff, and SOME fake stuff! Thus he creates an endless fascination, with people arguing back and forth "It's real! No it's fake! No it's real!" - when actually, it's BOTH!

Yeah, that seems like the most logical way to dismiss the trickery.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Yeah, that seems like the most logical way to dismiss the trickery.

I'm not "dismissing" trickery, I'm saying that sometimes he does trick people.

But sometimes, he doesn't.

It creates an endless mystery and excitement about him, which is no doubt good for business.

Clearly he isn't in it to prove Telekinesis and heal people and things like that, that much is certain.....

Clearly he isn't in it to prove Telekinesis and heal people and things like that, that much is certain.....

That is why we need to look at every performance individually. We also need to find at least one instance where it can be 100% confirmed an Esoteric event.

This one event should be watched live and by someone who is himself/herself an adept. There is no easy way to get around this issue.

Even supposing that Criss Angel has Esoteric Abilities, it doesn't mean he is necessarily EVER using them in his tricks. Sometimes the best magic is getting people to simply watch T.V.

That is the problem we face today. Not only in this Criss Angel discussion, but also what happened, for example, on September 11.