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criss angel discussion...

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posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 02:40 AM
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He's a fraud and not a very good one. The trick he did where he had a woman lay on a bench and pulled her in half was so bogus it's laughable. The top half of the woman that walked away on her hands out into the grass has been on TV multiple times, she was born with only the top half of her body, she doesn't even have a butt. Her body ends at the tailbone. I can't believe there's even a thread to discuss this dip. If anyone has actual abilities it'd be Blaine, that guy's tripping. C. Angel is a joke.




posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 03:59 AM
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Originally posted by naossoan
As for the above poster. What proof do you have that these are NOT illusions and Criss angel truly has powers other than none of the members of the audience have come forward to say he's a fraud, because honestly, I don't think that's a valid comment.


Thank you naossoan, you actually see that eyewitness86 is making no sense also. Good one!


He keeps chatting about the fact that we don't believe what we see because we think it's wires and paid audience members who have been 'in on the act' with him, and he keeps claiming that it is all real. But the fact is, which he still hasn't grasped yet, is he comes here with claims that Criss Angel is real and a supernatural specimen, yet he brings with him - NO EVIDENCE

So eyewitness86 can't be taken seriously.

I've not once said he's a fraud or a trickster, or the opposite. Yet eyewitness86 says Criss Angel is a real man who can manipulate physics and the World around him. I'm not doubting that for a second but you see, to say wild things like that, and believe me they are wild...you need a little thing called EVIDENCE. You see, this little thing called evidence actually backs up your claims and proves that you know exactly what you are talking about. At the moment eyewitness86 you just look like a crazed fool who believes that they are right. And believing that you are right, just because you think it makes sense...isn't really 100% evidence now is it?

So I will state again : Unless you bring conclusive evidence to the 'ATS table' showing that this man is in fact a superhuman with physics bending powers, you can't, no in fact it's damn right cheeky, for you to 'slam' other peoples opinions of him stating that he's just a really skilled illusionist. Because at this moment eyewitness86 it seems that your point is only truly based on only your opinions. If that is the case, other peoples opinions are worth just as much.



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 07:23 AM
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I just watched his video clip of walking on water.
NO ONE got in front of his path because of the plexiglass.
The girl swam under it but no one ever on the surface crosses his path.
If I come across the video how-to again I'll will return, because there is proof to be seen. (though I doubt those who are married to their beliefs will ever admit it)



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 07:38 AM
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Originally posted by naossoan
Definitely great skills. What do you think about this.

If these guys ACTUALLY had so called 'powers' or 'supernatural abilities' don't you think the American government would grab them and hide them in a moments notice? They would disappear and be burried just like they do for everything else.

The government is so paranoid about the 'general public' knowing 'secrets' like aliens and what not that I would think Criss angel and david blaine would disappear completely if they actually had 'powers.'

I think people that claim they do have powers such as Telekinesis, mind reading, stuff like that (which I do think is possible) do not come forward because I think if they did on a public level such as a TV show or some kind of sideshow act - the government would grab them and try to force them to become some kind of weapon or just hide them from public view until they perished.

That is always a possibility. Which is one of the reasons why people like David Blaine and Criss Angel do not openly declare that they have a Gift of Telekinesis.

The government tends to only go after people who are not already well known so as to avoid the scandal, lawsuits, bad publicity, and negative media attention.

The other reason why Blaine and Angel don't go public about their Gifts is so they can laugh all the way to the bank and to do so without the scrutiny of all the skeptics who don't believe anyone can have a Gift of TK.

In Criss Angel's case, we have yet another reason.

I hardly think that anyone can contain him for very long. His large Group Entity would simply grant him the energies needed to teleport away. Just as they have in various stunts that he has performed in front of an audience and without the advantage of a high-tech magician's stage, camera tricks, or paid-off spectators.

On the Uri Geller site, Geller has statements from various high-level people in the government. The government has already done an extensive investigation on people with powerful Gifts of the Spirit. At this juncture, it is not in their best interest to detain every illusionist who may also have a Gift of TK. They would only do so if they felt threatened by them in some way - like if one or more of them teleported into the underground S-4 facility and started filming the Greys at work with their long-term breeding program and their ongoing medical and psychological experimentation on Homo sapiens.

However, it is not too much of a stretch that people like Angel and Blaine have already had a "friendly visitation" by one or more federal agents who warned them not to pursue illegal activities against the military and government. Like, for example, providing physical evidence that there are extraterrestrials and that they have various underground and underwater bases around the world - as insiders like retired Army Sgt. Clifford Stone (and others) has stated.




[edit on 19-7-2007 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 08:32 AM
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Originally posted by yeahright
With all due respect Paul, no. I don't see anything there where Mr. Geller performed under rigorous scientific controlled situation. The people quoted here were observing as any audience member at a show would be.

Observation is a key part of the scientific method. And Geller has very credible research to back up the idea that he had (or has) a Gift of TK.


Originally posted by yeahright
In addition, the source being Mr. Geller's website, lends itself to the distinct possibility that he is exaggerating the quote, taking it out of context, or even possibly making it up out of whole cloth.

I suggest finding yourself a copy of The Journal of the Society for Psychical Research - Volume 48 number 768 - June 1976 - pp. 322-328.


Originally posted by yeahright
I still have yet to see anything from a legitimate peer reviewed scientific source (in other words something other than anecdotal testimony) that would cause me to believe Criss Angel or Uri Geller or any other popular entertainer is in possession of powers paranormal, supernatural, or anything other than good skilled technique at illusion.

So all quotes from the scientists, psychiatrists, a high-ranking NSA officer, and an Apollo astronaut no less, all quoted on Uri Geller's site, are all intended deceptions. Geller is completely distorting what they said and/or stated, even to the point of making it all up.


You wanted evidence, you got it, and now you won't accept it.

The fault is not with the evidence but with you.

With all due respect, I don't buy into that prejudiced perspective. You are not being rationale or objective in your appraisal.

For those interested, here is additional material to ponder...

Jonathan Margolis of Time Magazine started out as a skeptic in his investigation of Uri Geller. He then became a believer and wrote a book called Uri Geller: Magician or Mystic?


"Scoffing at the paranormal seemed perfectly normal," writes British journalist, biographer (Cleese Encounters, etc.) and one-time skeptic Margolis. But his own conversion experience - a private demonstration of Geller's reputed spoon-bending and mind-reading powers - assuaged his doubts about Geller's psychic abilities and the paranormal in general.

...Margolis insists that occasional "cheating" (use of sleight-of-hand rather than of psychic power) to get through off-days does not undermine Geller's claims to authenticity. It may take a conversion experience on the order of Margolis's for die-hard skeptics to relent, but others will find Margolis's account one of the best yet to appear on Geller. Still, it is difficult to suspend disbelief when Margolis grows as grandiose (even if his tongue is a bit in his cheek) as the flamboyant Geller himself: "if it should turn out in the future that Uri was, indeed, a Jesus figure, I should be a little surprised, but delighted. It will have meant, for one thing, that I have accidentally written the New Testament." (Sept.)

Source: Review From Publishers Weekly in Amazon.com

That testament point is something that also pertains to Criss Angel fans, especially the ones who actually believe (which I do not) that he is the reincarnation of Jesus.

Book Review By Tony Utting in the Journal of the Society for Psychical Research - Vol. 53 No. 856 - 1986




posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 09:01 AM
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Ok, for all the people who think Criss Angel is a superhuman, he's blatantly not, and all the people here can't seem to get it through to people who believe otherwise. I know this is the paranormal section but come on! It's all staged.

Also as my previous posts have mentioned, can somebody who claims he's genuinely gifted post some evidence showing that please?

As for me showing you that it's all an act, a supreme excelled performance artist, I will. I like to back up my claims, which is a lot more than can be said for most of the Criss supporters here. So, onwards we go.



SUPPORTIVE EVIDENCE OF HIM BEING AN ILLUSIONIST PERFORMER

HOW TO LEVITATE



Learn one of Criss Angel's secrets. In this one he shows you how he magically takes an empty dented Pepsi can and turns it into a full unused can in front of your eyes.

video.tagged.com...

LEVITATION REVEALED - FLOATING FROM ONE BUILDING TO THE NEXT - DEEP ANALYSIS FROM VIDEO EXPERT




This is an incredible magic trick that has baffled everyone. It is the first time the “sawing the lady in half” illusion has been performed in public using an audience member. However, those of you familiar with Criss Angel’s illusions know that he is renowned for bringing large scale magic (sawing a lady in half, making elephants disappear, levitating) onto the streets. Yet Mr. Mindfreak cannot be fully classified as a street magician; he is better classified as video illusionist. What does this mean? Simple- he uses video editing effects, stooges (secret helpers that appear to be regular audience members), and other “unmagical” techniques to meet his goal of entertaining those watching at home.

However, Criss Angel is still a wonderful street magician, and a majority of his magic tricks do not involve dirty techniques. Two excellent effects that he personally reveals the secrets to are the incredible and impromptu “Coin Trough Soda Can” effect and his extraordinary self-levitation.

Anyways, here's the secret to Criss Angel’s trick: the lady was an amputee. Having a hard time believing that? Go google, “Rose Siggins.” The lady on the bottom is a contortionist (bent over, hands on legs). The amputee sits on top of her and the two are held together by straps, clips, magnets or something. Note how the lady is conveniently wearing a black dress that would disguise where the two people join. Of course, some post editing would have concealed anything that might have been flashed.

At this point, most of you are probably disappointed. Who wouldn’t be, especially after learning that your favorite “street magician” edits his tricks and hires deformities to perform his illusions? The ultimate goal of a magician is to entertain, and Criss Angel knows this. I guarantee that before you found out the secret to this magic trick, you were absolutely entertained. I sure know I was. The whole point of magic is to ignite a small spark of curiosity within us, causing us to wonder if the supernatural can actually occur.

Criss Angel does a wonderful job of entertaining, regardless of the techniques he chooses. Like all magic performers, Criss Angel knows how to get reactions. I have come to realize that the downside to being a magician is that you probably won’t be as fascinated when you see a magic trick. But, the positive side is that you have the ability to astonish others.


ANGEL SECRETS REVEALED:SOURCE

COIN THROUGH SODA CAN TRICK REVEALED - 4 PARTS (COULD ONLY FIND 1,2 AND 4)








There's many more out there, and Criss even explains some himself.

So believe what you will.



[edit on 19-7-2007 by Arawn]



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 09:09 AM
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I have a thread in BTS about this fellow anyway he is very good at what he does any takers on how this is done,
cgi, payed wittinesses?


from BTS
I have only one simple question, how does he do it



Criss Angel - Levitates From Building to Building



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 09:21 AM
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I posted a theory to that levitation above mate.



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by Arawn
I posted a theory to that levitation above mate.


Sorry Arawn I missed the video you mentioned


[edit on 19/7/2007 by Sauron]



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 11:06 AM
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Such nonsense!! The PROOF IS IN THE EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS and the video's of him performing as well as the FACT that NOT ONE person has ever come forward and claimed that they were ' in on it ' or were ' paid off '. Not one!! Ever!! You are confusing TWO issues: First, Criss does " ILLUSIONS ' as well as doing ' ABOVE NATURAL ' events as well. WHY cannot you people see that it is very simple:

There is MASSIVE evidence of Criss Angel, among others, using forces not commonly understood to do SOME of the events we see.

There are OTHER events that are clearly ILLUSIONS, and should be seen as such. I DID NOT say, or imply in any way, shape or form that Criis Angel uses these powers ONLY and never does illusions. That is stupid to assume and a ridiculous point to keep clinging to.

It is NOT up to US to prove that what we see and what the evidence and the witnesses all claim to be true is in fact TRUE!!! It is up to the naysayers and doubters and those who believe in invisible wires to prove.

I CANNOT prove that invisible wires exist, and neither can you. the DISPROVAL of their existence is YOUR job, not mine. If you really believe that it is all a hoax and that there are really invisible wires, then prove how that could be so. You STILL have not given ONE intelligent response yet, not ONE.

Showing video's of ILLUSIONS are not valid, we are talking about the flying .etc. And in the video of the pool walk, there ARE people swimming directly in front, underneath and all around looking for a possible cause. To believe that the entire pool area was cleared and then filled with Criss Angel loyalists ( and plexiglas columns!!) that will remain forever silent shows the very depth of your denial of common sense and mathematical odds.

Your replies are vapid and unconvincing. You deny empirical evidence ( eyewitnesses, video,etc. ) in favor of illiogical suppositions and examples that are TOTALLY unrelated to the point. WHY are you showing video's of illusions when there are plenty of video's of the ' inexplicable ' events?

I will tell you why: Because if you had to try and figure out how he does those events, you would be FORCED to admit that your claims of Criss being simply a good illusionist are nothing more than attempts to divert the attention away from the real issues, and onto the obviously minor ones, like the fact that he is an illusionist ALSO. Criss is ALSO an illusionist as well as a person who uses powers beyond your comprehension to perform the events. The mere fact that you cannot comprehend a human being performing incredible feats is NOT sufficient for a finding of trickery in his events that are ' inexplicable ' by ordinary means.

Let me simplify it for you: Until YOU can tell us how Criss Angel can fly, and walk on water, and jump into a 3 inch deep puddle and disappear, etc. you had better stay silent as your replies are so lacking, so unsatisfying to an inquiring mind, that it makes you look intensely shallow and unable to debate issues in a cohesive style. You guys CANNOT explain the golf course levitation and will not try as you KNOW how silly it sounds to say " There are wires..and trick shots, and all the witnesses are paid off!!", that kind of juvenile excuse making is not up to the standard that mature and intelligent people demand in a discusiion.

Either show PROOF that Criss has props in his retinue when he performs NON-ILLUSION events, as I discussed above, or admit that maybe he does not NEED props to do his thing. That would lend you some credibility but as it stands now, you are whistling in the wind and no one can make out what tune you are using.

Cannot your minds even TRY to give us some logical and realistic answers? If not then you are obviously missing the whole point and further time is a waste with people who refuse to define the issue and frame it and stay to it. Stick to the point!! HOW does Criss Angel fly? Or walk on water? No nonsense like ' invisible stuff ' allowed. It is stupid and foolish for anyone to believe that props and cranes and wires can remain invisible to the eye, the camera and the witnesses who state without exception that they have witnessed profound and incredible feats when Criss does his thing.

OF COURSE not ALL events are ' other than illusion ', and that is plain and clear. But, the one's where he DOES use powers not well known it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to come up with a real and sensible explanation; at least we have not heard any yet here!! Try again, guys. Stick to the issue, the NON illusions events, and explain THEM. No slipping and sliding away onto false issues and side issues, Just the facts. No unsupported accusations of ' invisible ' things, just fact.

Put up or shut up with the foolish ' invisible wires' nonsense. They do NOT exists!! Criss CAN do what YOU SEE him do!! If you cannot believe your own eyes and senses and intelligence and logic, then HOW in the hell can you expect US to believe you either? HA!! Gotcha !! Your credibility resides in your WORDS and your WORDS have been nothing but repititions of old and sad excuses that do not convince, do not persuade; all you do is obscure the issue with NON evidence and try to keep your tidy little vision of reality nice and safe and dumded down as far as possible so that challenges will not upset your entire worldview. Sad.



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 11:31 AM
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To add to eyewitness' argument, I'll ask again:

If things like the golf course levitation, the building-to-building levitation, and the Luxor Hotel levitations are done with props, paid accomplices, camera tricks and film editing - then why aren't ANY other illusionists reproducing them? Not even guys like Blaine, who also has a TV show, production crew etc?

If they are illusions, other expert illusionists should be able to reproduce them no problem, but they aren't.....

[edit on 19-7-2007 by MrdDstrbr]



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 12:03 PM
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I'll keep this brief as it's like talking to a brick wall.


Originally posted by eyewitness86
Showing video's of ILLUSIONS are not valid, we are talking about the flying .etc.


He explains himself how he levitates. It's a trick.


Your replies are vapid and unconvincing. You deny empirical evidence ( eyewitnesses, video,etc. ) in favor of illiogical suppositions and examples that are TOTALLY unrelated to the point. WHY are you showing video's of illusions when there are plenty of video's of the ' inexplicable ' events?


Posting videos of how HE HIMSELF explains his tricks is more evidence that you have come up with.


The mere fact that you cannot comprehend a human being performing incredible feats is NOT sufficient for a finding of trickery in his events that are ' inexplicable ' by ordinary means.


I'm a firm believer in the paranormal...except Criss openly admits to how he performs what he does. FROM HIS OWN MOUTH!


You guys CANNOT explain the golf course levitation and will not try as you KNOW how silly it sounds to say "There are wires..and trick shots, and all the witnesses are paid off!!", that kind of juvenile excuse making is not up to the standard that mature and intelligent people demand in a discusiion.


Nah, you see it sounds silly saying what you are saying. That he's a supernatural being, able to amnipulate the forces of nature and physics - WITHOUT 1 GRAIN OF EVIDENCE. Now that is silly, you silly billy. Silly sausage.


Either show PROOF that Criss has props in his retinue when he performs NON-ILLUSION events, as I discussed above, or admit that maybe he does not NEED props to do his thing.


He doesn't need props all the time. I myself am a magician and an illusionist. You use trick and sleight of hand.


That would lend you some credibility but as it stands now, you are whistling in the wind and no one can make out what tune you are using.


You're doing the very thing that you hate then, because you're chatting a load of nonsense without evidence. It would be valid if you gave support to your claims, but you're just talking about how most of his events are supernatural and that he was born with a gift. WHERE'S THE EVIDENCE? I ask for evidence, not to be a pain in the ass, but because you seem to think that is so logical and certain and that we aren't grasping what is obvious. If it's obvious, show us evidence. You sound like a fairly intelligent man who visits these forums a lot. We are in the paranormal section, SO WE NEED EVIDENCE!


Cannot your minds even TRY to give us some logical and realistic answers? If not then you are obviously missing the whole point and further time is a waste with people who refuse to define the issue and frame it and stay to it. Stick to the point!! HOW does Criss Angel fly? Or walk on water? No nonsense like ' invisible stuff ' allowed. It is stupid and foolish for anyone to believe that props and cranes and wires can remain invisible to the eye, the camera and the witnesses who state without exception that they have witnessed profound and incredible feats when Criss does his thing.


Again, your stating all that paragraph above as though it's factual information. You're throwing the possibility that people are involved in his tricks and that digital manipulation cannot be involved. The fact that he could have people working with him going "OMG THAT WAS AMAZING", and that the video can be edited before it is broadcast on television still holds up very strongly as a valid point because it can't be proved wrong. As you can say "It's a load of nonsense" - so can we say the same about what you're trying to convey. The fact is that you can't prove us wrong, and neither can we prove you wrong.


OF COURSE not ALL events are ' other than illusion ', and that is plain and clear. But, the one's where he DOES use powers not well known it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to come up with a real and sensible explanation; at least we have not heard any yet here!! Try again, guys.


AGAIN YOU COME OUT WITH WHAT YOU BELIEVE ARE FACTS! YOU STATE THAT HE "DOES USE POWERS NOT WELL KNOWN." So you're stating that he uses powers? Where are you getting this information from? The goblins under your bed? Without evidence to backup these claims, they have no foundation and should be scraped. Wouldn't we not - if someone came here claiming to be an alien from Mars, require evidence and proof? Wouldn't we require proof that somebody could run up walls and jump across 40 foot gaps? OF COURSE WE WOULD! As that is what ATS is clearly about. You can't understand that what you are saying is completely bonkers without evidence!


Stick to the issue, the NON illusions events, and explain THEM. No slipping and sliding away onto false issues and side issues, Just the facts. No unsupported accusations of ' invisible ' things, just fact.


Now this is a funny paragraph right here. You even mention you require facts and demand them - yet you have none yourself. That's just laughable eyewitness86.


Put up or shut up with the foolish ' invisible wires' nonsense. They do NOT exists!! Criss CAN do what YOU SEE him do!!


Now surely you have heard of the phrase "You only see what you want to see"? It seems eyewitness86, you clearly are. So the fact I see on television, him flying across buildings, floating up walls, and walking through glass...IT MUST BE REAL? Just because I see it?


If you cannot believe your own eyes and senses and intelligence and logic, then HOW in the hell can you expect US to believe you either? HA!! Gotcha !!


That's the whole point you're missing yet again. I do believe my own senses, but I'm also very open minded. So much open minded eyewitness86 that I truly believe in paranormal events and I do believe that there are very gifted individuals out there. I've never said Criss is a faker and total illusionist. I was just in a debate with you and presented information that showed (FROM THE MAN HIMSELF) how he performed some of his tricks. You said that there are others that are real and that the guy has gifts that defy physics. But where is the evidence?!!! We have presented more evidence for him being a total illusionist than you have of him being the opposite.



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 12:04 PM
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Your credibility resides in your WORDS and your WORDS have been nothing but repititions of old and sad excuses that do not convince, do not persuade;


Escaped from a mental assylum recently? THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING! CAN'T YOU SEE!?

You're credability resides in only what you say. That is all you have done! Talked and talked and talked.


all you do is obscure the issue with NON evidence and try to keep your tidy little vision of reality nice and safe and dumded down as far as possible so that challenges will not upset your entire worldview. Sad.


Again, if I and many others here have presented "NON evidence" - then please, where the hell is ours? Have I missed it somewhere? If so, please do me the favour and wake me up from my version of reality, because I seem to have missed it.

For the last time, and believe me this will be my last post here, as talking with people who seem to have the brain capacity of a brick wall (i.e yourself) is really impossible - I beleive in the paranormal and supernatural abilities...

...BUT YOU CLAIM HE'S GIFTED WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE! YOU DEMAND EVIDENCE OF US WITHOUT SHOWING ANY OF YOUR OWN! YOU SAY WE ARE THE IGNORANT ONES BELIEVING THAT HE IS 100% ONLY AN ILLUSIONIST!...

...BUT YOU PRESENT NONE OF YOUR OWN!

I bid you fairwell.



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by Arawn
He explains himself how he levitates. It's a trick.
.....
Posting videos of how HE HIMSELF explains his tricks is more evidence that you have come up with.
.....
I'm a firm believer in the paranormal...except Criss openly admits to how he performs what he does. FROM HIS OWN MOUTH!


He explains how he does his minor levitation 2 or 3 feet into the air, onto a chair or curb or whatnot. (by using a fake leg prop)

Quite obviously, a fake leg prop could NOT be used to do the more spectacular levitations - the building to building one, the golf course one, the Luxor Hotel levitations. So you cannot credibly point to that video as proof that his spectacular levitations are faked.

I am not denying that CA is a great illusionist and SOME of his feats are illusions, and I don't think eyewitness and Paul Richard are either. We are simply saying that SOME of his feats are also real. He uses a blend of real psi abilities and illusions.



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 12:36 PM
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It is always nice to see a confirmation of something that was ascertained through objective analysis and logical extrapolation.


I don't have a link on my outside links page to the video of Criss Angel pulling a woman apart simply because I saw through that feat as being an illusion. Yes, she is indeed an amputee
If you look closely, you will notice that she is very much at ease in moving about with only her arms. That is the first clue. A second indication that she is an amputee is that you never actually see her walk over and get into position.


That is an example of one of Criss Angel's illusions and not indicative of his uniquely powerful Gift of Telekinesis


Criss Angel cleverly avoids explaining how he does his high levitations and teleportations.


He has said that he wants the audience to decide for themselves and that a lot of what he does is REAL.

Well Criss...a number of us at ATS are FULLY AWARE that you have a Gift of Telekinesis and that it is more powerful than basically anyone else on the planet right now.



Originally posted by eyewitness86
Showing video's of ILLUSIONS are not valid, we are talking about the flying .etc. And in the video of the pool walk, there ARE people swimming directly in front, underneath and all around looking for a possible cause. To believe that the entire pool area was cleared and then filled with Criss Angel loyalists ( and plexiglas columns!!) that will remain forever silent shows the very depth of your denial of common sense and mathematical odds.



You are absolutely right EW86.


If one looks carefully in that video, one realizes that he is not actually walking on water. Rather, he is levitating ever so slightly above it.




[edit on 19-7-2007 by Paul_Richard]



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 12:55 PM
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Good riddance! You have left with even less credibility than I had imagined but so be it. Let us see if you really ARE gone from a tortured attempt to deflect the proof to US. It is SO plain and simple, yet you FLEE from the main point in favor of changing the paradigms of the challenge:

The PROOF IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU. I CANNOT make it any plainer than that in the English language. The PROOf is the eyewitnesses, NONE OF WHOM have recanted, or admitted fraud, or hinted at anything that would lend credence to your shallow excuses for unbelief. When you see the video of Criss levitating over the buildings that is posted above, please tell us WHERE are the cranes?And the wires? Are all of the witnesses paid off? Silent forever, strangers loyal to the death to Criss? Maybe he has a train full of different stooges, paid to travel and act suprised that there are no wires, or cranes,etc? You expect us to believe THAT rather than accept that the laws of gravtity are not immutable? PUHLEEEEEZE. What do you take us for?

The proof is in the video's, and eyewitnesses ,which, UNTIL PROVEN hoaxed, can stand as proof. In a courtroom, if a video cannot be shown to be altered or changed in any way that affects the material reality that is being depicted, then it is RELIABLE evidence. To every one but YOU and the other naysayers who have no alternative views that make any sense.
Eyewitness testimony is the MOST compelling and acceptable evidence of all.

You cannot refute the PROOF intelligently, so you merely discuss side topics not related to the issue. You will not be pinned down!! The reason why you will not be pinned down is that in the final analysis, your side does not give any really valid alternatives, none. So you just keep on with the personal attacks, asylums, etc. That shows that you are at the bottom of the barrel as far as logic and reason go and are now calling me names and running away. We all know who does that: The loser who cannot even leave with dignity intact due to ego issues not related to the discususion.
Don't feel too badly, PaulRichard and I have been chasing empty premises away for a while now. NOT ONE person has stepped up and given convincing and rational explanations for the type of events Criss does that defy all possible ways of trrickery, props, illusion, etc.

In your face real events cannot be swept under the rug by saying " YOU show ME the proof: Film and eyewitnesses and testimony are not enough, show me proof that suits ME. NO PROOF would suit you because you cannot accept the premise no matter what! You have an inherent limitation that you cannot see! The forest for the trees type thing, comprende? THAT is your position and it is untenable in any real debate. the burden rests on those who deny their own eyes, sense and minds. To leave ANY possible explanation out is unacceptable, not valid.

Those of us who know what the deal is, at least in part, will NOT allow empty, vapid, shallow and ludicrous assumptions to predominate the issue and be taken seriously. the truth is more staggering than many of you can handle, thus the repeated and typical excuses, all of which fail the truth test and the rationality test, and so because YOU cannot handle it you try and lower the bar of comprehension to match your own, which is lacking in the extreme in content and the abilty to express alternate views that have any substance whatsoever. Dos Vedanya, Oh, and be sure to send donations to the Old Magicians Home; after seeng Criss and David and Cyril no doubt many old ' stage magicians ' will be retirng as their acts are old hat and easily duplicated with practice. Randi cannot do what Criss does, no matter what. No duplication means no evidence of a hoax.Period.

However, the feats we see Criss and others perform cannot be duplicated no matter how much a skeptic practices; unless he has many years and a good grasp of esoteric reality. THAT is the difference; Criss's events CANNOT be disproven by slowing a film down, or by common explanation. It is BEYOND the realm of the physical and to understand it one must have an ability to go beyond physics based thought. Some people cannot do that, thus the naysayers with no substnace to their arguments.

It remains a fcat that no one has disproven the assertion that SOME of the feats performed by Criss and others are BEYOND the known physics that we have been taught and cannot be explained away by any means; at least so far. the invitation is still open, and no one has yet given any convincing and rational alternatives to the MAIN ISSUE. Until then, we hold the high ground and await an inlelligent challenge. So far it has been rather elementary, I hope that we can get at least ONE reply that provokes the imagination and intellect into a possible scenario we have not examined yet. Let's hear it!!



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
Such nonsense!! The PROOF IS IN THE EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS and the video's of him performing as well as the FACT that NOT ONE person has ever come forward and claimed that they were ' in on it ' or were ' paid off '. Not one!! Ever!!


You ever heard of a confidentiallity agreement? You really think someone is going to risk their financial wellbeing to expose criss angel? please.

Personally, i believe there are forces in this universe we have no idea about, but is criss angel utilizing these forces? doubtful. Hes out to make a buck, and thats about it.



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
I CANNOT prove that invisible wires exist, and neither can you. the DISPROVAL of their existence is YOUR job, not mine. If you really believe that it is all a hoax and that there are really invisible wires, then prove how that could be so. You STILL have not given ONE intelligent response yet, not ONE.


I work in aerospace, they have been used in this feild for a long time from what i understand. Only a small number of factories manufacture such lines. Do you really believe that David Copperfield flies on stage? Does he have the same "gift" as Angel? No, he doesnt, he uses the same cables.



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 02:57 PM
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Umm, in case it slipped by you, there is no stage on the Criss levitations at issue. There is only OPEN SKY and THAT is what confounds the naysayers; they cannot come up with an ' invisible helicopter ' to hang the ' invisible strings ' from that you ' heard about ' somewhere ot other, right? THIS is the essence of your rebuttal?

One guy who has never shown paranormal abilites on a stage CANNOT be compared to a proven adept on a roof top with nothing above him whatsoever. Can you see that to compare them is disingenuous? OK.

There is NO DOUBT that there exists such things as wires that are very thin and yet very strong; but there has never been shown anything that the strings or wires can hang from!! THAT is where the rubber meets the road in this issue.You either must be asserting that some unknown and unseen force or apparatus is in the sky above the crowds and buildings, OR you are asserting that all of the apparent evidence, eye witnesses, video, etc, are staged or manipulated or edited and vast crowds of people are being bought off and stay silent. There is NO OTHER choice according to your view.

Neither is correct. You left the choice out that makes sense and fits all of the empirical evidence to a T; the obvious fact that SOME of the events performed by Criss, et al., are not explainable by ordinary means. they are not regulated by the laws of physics that we are educated about in general so many people are unable to accept a radical paradigm that upsets their premiere worldview. There can really be few other explanations for it, refusal to address the key issues and topics and the continued denial of acceptable evidence is the hallmark of the defeated debater.

It is the same mindset we see in the 9-11 phenomenon; despite all of the obvious evidence and fantastic odds, many people still refuse to accept reality and admit that the whole thing was a psy op inside job. It is so apparent that to be in denial is almost a pathology in and of itself, is it not? It takes an amazing leap of faith to accept such flimsy proofs as we see in these subjects, yet many will always bury their heads in the sand and refuse to see the new, and terrible( to some ) , paradigm that is the real deal.

Tell us all about what exactly the invisible wires hang from? OK? Thank You. I am interested in hearing the answers that make sense and are believable given the current evidence. Have at it! We are waiting, and waiting, and.....



posted on Jul, 19 2007 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by eyewitness86
Umm, in case it slipped by you, there is no stage on the Criss levitations at issue. There is only OPEN SKY and THAT is what confounds the naysayers; they cannot come up with an ' invisible helicopter ' to hang the ' invisible strings ' from that you ' heard about ' somewhere or other, right? THIS is the essence of your rebuttal?

...There is NO DOUBT that there exists such things as wires that are very thin and yet very strong; but there has never been shown anything that the strings or wires can hang from!! THAT is where the rubber meets the road in this issue.You either must be asserting that some unknown and unseen force or apparatus is in the sky above the crowds and buildings, OR you are asserting that all of the apparent evidence, eye witnesses, video, etc, are staged or manipulated or edited and vast crowds of people are being bought off and stay silent. There is NO OTHER choice according to your view.

...Tell us all about what exactly the invisible wires hang from? OK? Thank You. I am interested in hearing the answers that make sense and are believable given the current evidence. Have at it! We are waiting, and waiting, and.....



LMAO

Oh...I needed that.

Thank you EW86.




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