Russia to launch new F/A-22 competetor

Originally posted by Seekerof

Thank you for correcting Stealth Spy, Deino.spewing them as if he has a clue. Apparently he did not read the article in it's entirety that I linked, and simply went into his counter commentary. What is interesting here is that he is from India, is very prideful of the Indian air force, the Indian Government wants the JSF, but yet he posts as he does about it. Stealth Spy means well, though.

so the answer to a post (ie that of Stealth Spy ) backed with information and creditable links is to personally assault the poster ?

Basically people do that when they are defeated in debate....but that's very uncivilized way to accept that you have been defeated ....

I wont like to debate with Seekerof but i just wonder what are the mods doing ....Oh sorry ......I forgot this is basically an American dominated forum ...the mods are Americans...Infcat such an uncivilized person like seekerof had been a moderator too for a while...Ridiculous

Prelude, thank you for trying to defend Stealth Spy, but you have misunderstood something, that if Seekrof says something as he has in the previous post, it may very well be right, not because he's a mod, but because he's an intelligent person and I'm not sure about him being American, he may be British, I don't know, but we do we have Multi-national mods on this forum, so in no way is this an American Dominated forum.

Sorry, it's just that your post really got on my nerves. And before you respond to this with "American Dominated" I'm european, portuguese and I'm apposed to National Domination on subjects, such as you have thought this was an American Dominated Forum, I do oppose places like that, but this isn't one of them.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by American Mad Man
I really don't understand how people can think that Russia will catch up with the US in technology.

Let's just look at it logically:Alright, lets!

1) During the cold war, Russia was consistantly behind. It was proven many times in actual combat and confirmed when the US aquired actual Soviet jets.Actually, during the Cold War, up until the Early, mid 1980's, Russia was actually ahead of the US in many fields of technology. Only at that point, did America actually pass the Soviet Union in terms of technological advancements, the reason being that the Soviet Union began experiencing internal difficulties at that time, which ultimately led to the fall of the Soviet Union in '91.

2) Since the cold war has ended, the US has INCREASED the gap that already existed. The US has spent over 1 TRILLION more dollars on defence over the last decade then Russia has.Now I do doubt that Russia will catch up to the US economically, anytime soon, they just don't have the infrastructure for that, the Soviet Union has fallen and now Russia is left in shambles, the US did not fall, the US still has a good economy, despite there being hardships.

3) In order for Russia to catch up, they would be required to exceed US progress over a period of time untill the gap was closed. In order to do that, they must out spend the US over said period of time.Playing Catch up doesn't mean you have to pass the other person, just means you have to match what they have, and a trillian dollars for Russia is alot a money, on their current budjet, I hope they are spending signifficantly less on defense than a trillian dollars.

4) Russia has no experience in making an operational stealth aircraft. The US has had THREE, one built in the 60's and the other two built in the 80's. Think about that! The SR-71 was already using RAM, RAP, and shaping for stealth 40 years ago. This was refined with the F-117, and perfected with the B-2. The F-117 has been around almost a quarter century and Russia STILL hasn't built a rival!Hmm, I wouldn't go as far as to say Russia has no Experience, because believe me they do have some experience, they did manage to build a replica of the F-117.(Forgot the Designation, but I know they have it, or do they?) And the Russians see RAS as a waste of an AirFrame, and sacrifice RAS stealth for Manueverability, which is why they are working on Plasma Stealth.(Although it isn't really going that far, they have their minds set in the right place)

5) Russia is almost as behind in electronics as it is in stealth. Thier computers are a joke compared with western ones (hence why they are going to Europe for help) and their avionics are behind as well.Western Computers are sold all over the world and thus are easily obtainable, and Japan also does manufacture microchips and technologies of those sorts, you don't know if they have an economy with Russia or not, does anyone know? Now Avionics is a completely different story, it is true that they do not have Stealth as advanced as American stealth, but they do have aircraft as manueverable, however I doubt that manueverability will help against a target your missiles don't even see.

All in all, it is going to take MONEY to catch up to the US. You need to OUTSPEND the US to catch up. There really isn't any way around it. So untill a country can compete with a 400 billion dollar per year military budget, they simply can't catch up. Now this is true, that not many nations are expected to catch up with the US in terms of R&D budjet anytime soon, but the American Economy won't be like this forever, and other economies are improving expodentionally. So there is that to account for.

Now your point is straight and forward, but I just think you may have exagerrated a bit or have been a bit misinformed, but what you're saying is true, that Russia is not expected to catch up to the US anytime this decade, maybe next, but not this.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Prelude, thank you for trying to defend Stealth Spy, but you have misunderstood something, that if Seekrof says something as he has in the previous post, it may very well be right, not because he's a mod, but because he's an intelligent person

I am not concernerd if he is an intellegent person or not(may be he is more intellegent than I am ) I am concerned whith the way he attacks stealth ......the same thing could have been said in a more polished way than he did...cant I expect that much from an ex-moderator?

and I'm not sure about him being American, he may be British, I don't know, but we do we have Multi-national mods on this forum, so in no way is this an American Dominated forum.

Sorry, it's just that your post really got on my nerves. And before you respond to this with "American Dominated" I'm european, portuguese and I'm apposed to National Domination on subjects, such as you have thought this was an American Dominated Forum, .

It dosent matter if he is from US or from Uk or from western european countries ......with due respect to the citizens of all those countries mentioned above(France excluded
) , any one who knows a bit of International politics will agree that all these countries are dominated by the US . The UK with such a glorious war history today prefers to play a second fiddle to the US .....and so does the NATO (france excluded)countries ...lust look at Iraq/afganisthan ....and basically they dont have any other options with their weak militaries ....

so even if he is from UK or portugal or europe he is(rather his country is )US dominated

(now please dont ask for links ...I sometimes do something which you people call "analysis")

Originally posted by Simon666
Actually, if they just wait long enough and spend less, they could eventually come up to a similar level if there is a law of diminishing return concerning technological advances, which is probably so and which will be reached when a number of theoretical performance limits will be reached. You seem to be assuming a linear increase in technology with the amount of money spent, that isn't necessarily so.

The problem with your argument is that by the time Russia had caught up to the US, the US would have moved on to another technology. In any case there is no realistic chance for ANY country to catch up with the US without out spending us.

Sure, mathematicly and theoretically Russia could catch up, but mathematicaly I could also win the lotery every week for the rest of my life.

Why would Russia even need to, what would they need to use it for? Can't go to war with either the US or China as that would result in nuclear war and that against a bunch of ragtag Chechens armed with AK-47s and RPGs it won't be of much use either.

Fair enough, but that makes me wonder why Russia feels the need to say they are building a rival to the Raptor...A plane which by it's very nature will be extremely expensive both to develope and aquire. Either they are bluffing, and it will not be a true rival (most likely IMO) or they are building such an aircraft and thus see a future conrontation with the US or China.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
. In any case there is no realistic chance for ANY country to catch up with the US without out spending us.

In fact, with the way you do things in the US, you need to out spend any other country to mantein the dominance they have now... in any other country, like Russia, with the same budget there would be done much more things (in cold war you had to spend much more money than the Soviet Union to be slightily ahead from them...)

You cant really compare budgets of countries. If you do you need to know exactly how much things costs in the countries you compare. Otherwise you can say: this country is much better than that country because it spends more while it can be that everything is more expensive.

Originally posted by tomcat ha
You cant really compare budgets of countries. If you do you need to know exactly how much things costs in the countries you compare. Otherwise you can say: this country is much better than that country because it spends more while it can be that everything is more expensive.

Actually, you can very much compare economies, because when figures are put on an American site for American's to be informed, it's all changed to American Dollars, so anyone could know what the budget for the country is.

The reason why prices are different is because countries have different incomes than others, some are poorer than others.

Shattered OUT...

in fact prices doesn't have to be lower because people has less money, the important is "how much can you buy with your money"... In that case, if prices are lower and salaries are lower in Russia, they can build a Raptor for a smaller price (althoght it cost them basically the same) and sell it cheaper than the raptor to another country but achieving more benefits at the same time. by the other hand, if they buy foreign products (i e avionics) it's more expensive for them than for an european country... so, even if you translate the coin to US dollars, the budget is not equivalent unless you calculate "what can you do with the american budget and the russian or chinese budget", and I doubt they calculate this, so comparing budgets is very relative and only believable if differences are big enough...

Originally posted by American Mad Man
The problem with your argument is that by the time Russia had caught up to the US, the US would have moved on to another technology. In any case there is no realistic chance for ANY country to catch up with the US without out spending us.

Who says there always is an alternative feasible technology available? There is very much chance of catching up if there is a law of diminishing returns in certain areas, which appears to be so. Even inflation adjusted, the development pricetag of new fighters and bombers is ever increasing for improvements that do not increase as significantly from generation to generation.

I think Russia can easily beat the Raptor. Hell, I daresay in A2A combat an Su-30 could have one. Plus, you can buy a whole stack of Su-30MK's for the price of a few raptors.

Hell, I just remember the US Air Force guy's comments when he first say the Thrust Vectoring sukhoi's at an air show... "We can't hope to have a plane that can do that within our next generation of fighters!"

The US can use stealth all it likes, and all sorts of high technology. I'd rather have a plane that can perform in combat. And for that, A Sukhoi Su-30 is stil lthe best fighter in the world. Why it holds that crown.

Russia is constantly pushing the plane boundry forward. MiG-15, first REAL jet fighter in Opperation. MiG-21 pushed it furthur forward. MiG-25, Fastest interceptor ever (With the 31, too.) MiG-29 shocked the world. Sukhoi Flanker Family did it again.

America has done it's fair share too. I can't deny that. But why do you try to discount Russia? Jelousy? Because you Americans can't do thrust vectoring properly? :p (Joke, fellas... But us Brits did it first!)

Teh_Gerbil, what a crap!!!!

i know that the f22 isnt so great, but such commentaries that you post about the same "we are better" crap are soooo boring

can we stop and end such behavior of some members?????

Someone teach teh_gerbil that it doesn't matter how manueverable the Sukhois are, that they still won't be able to see a squad of raptors come by and shoot them down.

Score 1 for the Raptors, score 0 for Sukhoi.

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Someone teach teh_gerbil that it doesn't matter how manueverable the Sukhois are, that they still won't be able to see a squad of raptors come by and shoot them down.

Score 1 for the Raptors, score 0 for Sukhoi.

Shattered OUT...

puffff!!!!!.........crapy comment

[edit on 30-8-2005 by grunt2]

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
Someone teach teh_gerbil that it doesn't matter how manueverable the Sukhois are, that they still won't be able to see a squad of raptors come by and shoot them down.

Score 1 for the Raptors, score 0 for Sukhoi.

Shattered OUT...

even if I believe in your ignorant statement are you sure the sub systems of the Raptor can keep it in air for an hour or two in order to destroy the Sukhoi.....how can you beat a plane in A2A combat when you plane cant even FLY properly? USA basically wasted their money while developing the Raptor

Originally posted by prelude

even if I believe in your ignorant statement are you sure the sub systems of the Raptor can keep it in air for an hour or two in order to destroy the Sukhoi.....how can you beat a plane in A2A combat when you plane cant even FLY properly? USA basically wasted their money while developing the Raptor

I'm the ignorant one.

During the testing phase of the Raptor, 5 F-15C eagles were pitted against one single Raptor. The Raptor easily over took every F-15 bringing them "down" one at a time, hell the Raptor even dance above and to the side of the F-15's and there was nothing they could do, want to know why? BECAUSE IT WAS STEALTH.

The F-15C's FCS could not get a lock on the Raptor to shoot it down. If 1 Raptor can take on 5 F-15's like that, will manueverability really matter?

Put it this way, you can have the most unmanueverable aircraft in the world, but if the enemy can't shoot it down, then well, it's a pretty damn useful plane, want to argue with that?

Shattered OUT...

F15's are old planes. They cant be compared with modern and future russian planes.

Originally posted by tomcat ha
F15's are old planes. They cant be compared with modern and future russian planes.

... Wow, I'll let someone else take care of that one.

Shattered OUT...

F15's are old planes. They cant be compared with modern and future russian planes.

Wow, and I thought you had some knowledge of aviation.
F-15C with AESA, I'd like to see your Russian superior jets take them on, let alone five of them at one time.

Ok, so... the Raptor is all well and good, but how can you expect it to beat a Suhkoi? BVR missiles aren't guaranteed to take a plane out. Hell, the Raptor is SEMI stealth. Yes, not pure stealth. The Russians could get a lock on the SR-71 when it went over, it was just they had nothing cpable of actually hitting it at the time. They were well aware where it was and what it was doing. Just couldn't do the blindest thing about it!

You can get a lock on a raptor. You can shoot it down. Russia has had missiles that can shoot down things like the B-2 for ages. Why wouldn't they sell them to people buying the Sukhoi's? I think they'd sell anything to anyone, as they seem to do.

F-15? MiG-29 can take one out. F-15 is good, but she is getting on a bit. Su-30 can beat an F-15 with relative ease.

The Raptor's main ability is it's semi-stealth and it's ECM warfare equipped. It was a case of "We want it first, even if it isn't perfect. Just to have it first." Hence to cost. It is a good plane, don't get me wrong, but for the price you can't afford enough really to make it worth it. If it ever works properly, it would win an Air Battle easily, with whatever. The Raptor is no where near ready, it requires for more development. And really, it is a piece of the future too far ahead to be viable. Just like the Nazi's in WW2. Think of the Number of Raptors Versus the amount of Su-30's you can buy for the money. At the end, it'd just be a remaining few Sukhoi's going home.

I think whatever comes next for the USAF is what we should be looking forward too. I think they've got something really good up their sleve...