Russia to launch new F/A-22 competetor

Stop trying to be like your mentor Joe Vialls SiberianTiger by spreading disinformation.

Provide the link(s) to back your assertion.
The article I provide in my last post mentions:

Pogosyan says Sukhoi is formulating the specifications for Russia’s fifth-generation fighter, which it is thought to be provisionally designated the T50.

Apparently, the T50 has not been built.




seekerof

[edit on 22-7-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by SiberianTiger
Trust me DUDE T-5-0 IS already built this is just DIS-INFO to give you yanks the calm before the storm (WW3) HOW YOU YANKS REALY BELIEVE THIS dis-INFO WHEN YOUR OWN gEMERALS HAVE STATED IT i DON'T KNOW.

Why, you're just asking to go to war aren't you? I don't know about the T-50 being built by now, but I'm pretty sure it hasn't.

Shattered OUT...

You can bet the russians dont have the money ofr RnD but you can double bet that the Chinese do. They are going to surpass us soon by our own retarded ways. They will most definitely push rnd for this secretly, we wont even know till we face it come time to defend taiwan. lol

Originally posted by Stealth Spy
Russian Defense spending to be raised 40% in 2005

What are you trying to prove? I don't see a list on there that says Russia is the 2nd largest spender. Besides, if you bothered to read, I already knew about the 40% defense budget increase:

Originally posted by Blackout

Defense appropriations emerged as the top priority in the draft budget approved 23 August 2004 by the Russian cabinet. Military spending is due to rise to 528 billion rubles ($18 billion - $1 is about 29 rubles) in 2005, up 28 percent from last year's 411 billion rubles ($14 billion). The nominal defense budget stays at a level of 2.6% to 2.7% of GDP. Years of neglect and under-funding have left the Russian forces in desperate need of extra funds. For 2005 the military was supposed to spend 146 billion rubles [$5 billion] for modernization.

www.globalsecurity.org...

So that's about 1/10 of Russia's defense budget going to modernization.

The Chinese don't have the money or the infrastructure to surpass us right now, RealisticPatriot. And believe me, the U.S. gov't is NOT ignorant of China's military or economic build-up.

SeekerOf, I noticed that the saying under your name, "That Others May Live," is the phrase of U.S. Air Force Pararescueman. Are you an Air Force Pararescueman?

Originally posted by EngineMan2145
The Chinese don't have the money or the infrastructure to surpass us right now, RealisticPatriot. And believe me, the U.S. gov't is NOT ignorant of China's military or economic build-up.

China isn't building up its military, it is modernizing it and not building up. Apparently, some of the newer stuff can match up to the current US standards , etc Su-30 against F-15 etc. The US media is just making a big fuss out of this.

Originally posted by RealisticPatriot
You can bet the russians dont have the money ofr RnD but you can double bet that the Chinese do. They are going to surpass us soon by our own retarded ways. They will most definitely push rnd for this secretly, we wont even know till we face it come time to defend taiwan. lol

I must have missed how they are going to surpass us soon...

They are atleast 15 years behind us. They are just now starting to produce aircraft with technology the US could rival in the late 80's.

Add to that that the US is furthering the gap every day as of now, and it will take at least 20 years to surpass the US. And that is assuming that they start spending more.

Are fighter jets such as the Raptor the best weapon or machine the armed forces has?

Are fighter jets the best?

Can anything counter them, such as sophisticated SAM or ATA missiles?I

Are fighter jets the penultimate creation of war technology?

Would ground wars be pointless if one nation concentrated on building fighter jets of every type and description?

This reminds me of a move for which I have seen many trailers. It's called "Stealth" and the film is about an amazing fighter jet that is mostly computer which becomes self-aware and decides that it's makers are unnecessary.

What is higher in existence than the fighter jet?

Is it the apex of man's dominion over this Earth?

If countries decided to fight solely by sending fighter jets against each other, you could fight with mostly them. The problem there is then the objective is to destroy the enemy's jets before they get off the ground, so you build bombers to attack the airbases to destroy the planes and you also attack the cities to destroy the manufacturing for the planes and potential pilots, etc....i.e. it will always turn into a ground war partially. With modern tech, you have to place boots on the ground to get your targets super precise and your intel, which only teams of Special Forces soldiers, Air Force Air Combat Controllers, etc....those types can acquire. Satellites and so forth can only acquire so much info, but usually you need actual people in there acquiring it. If your intel is wrong, you get cases of for example when the United States bombed the Chinese embassy by accident. The missile or bomb that did that hit its target spot on, the problem was what the U.S. thought was at that target (terrorists I think) turned out to be the Chinese.

I wouldn't pay much attention to that movie "Stealth." Looks more like a future "Top Gun" meets "Terminator" type of thing. Anytime you see a fighter pilot movie and they start showing a female pilot in a bathing suit, yada yada, it is pretty much pure Hollywood drama.

Originally posted by Seekerof

Well, apparently, the Russian's cannot do this program on their own.
Just ran across this article and it will prove interesting to some here:
Sukhoi asks Europe for fighter help

No further comment.

seekerof

Really ?

check this out as well on the F-35 >>


Infact lockheed martin engineers themselves had a major problem with the VTOL system and went to Russia for help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as only the Russians had mastered such a complex lift fan technology.......in this is in addition to all the VSTOL tech they acquired from the British who made the Harriers.

Lockheed Martin's X-35 design has a trapezoidal wing planform which initially featured foreplanes, although these since deleted; STOVL version embodies a lift fan, shaft-driven by a modified F119 with a vectoring lift/cruise nozzle developed by Rolls-Royce; lift fan replaced by extra fuel in the CTOL version. Lockheed Martin also turned to Russia for technical expertise, purchasing design data from Yakovlev; and used an 86 per cent subscale model (originally developed for the CALF project and fitted with a Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 engine plus an Allison shaft-driven lift fan) for testing.

from the most trusted source that there can exist >> www.janes.com... ( credits to Daedalus3 for finding it )

The Yak-141's.



Now can i say "Lockheed cant make the F-35 by themselves without Russian help" ??

I wont because that will be simply untrue.

and the Russian dont need any technical help whatsoever...it is only financial support that they seek by asking a wealthy & technologically advanced European nation to partner them in the project....as i said before.

Infact Yakolev have an even more advance version of this technoloy that they wish to incorporate into the 5th generation PAK-FA's VSTOL version

external image

View the larger picture of this

Infact India are offered co-development in this whole PAK-FA programme ... not for technical input(as we have little that could be helpful to the Russian except some software coding and some non analog electronics) but for financial support and more so because India is a long time freind of Russia....but India are now at the crossroads on which route to take....so nothing has come out of it so far.

[edit on 3-8-2005 by Stealth Spy]

Infact lockheed martin engineers themselves had a major problem with the VTOL system and went to Russia for help !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! as only the Russians had mastered such a complex lift fan technology.......in this is in addition to all the VSTOL tech they acquired from the British who made the Harriers.
[edit on 3-8-2005 by Stealth Spy]

That's not completely right ! It's true that LM asked for some help - but not for the lift fan - but only for the semi-circular arrangement of the engine exhaust ... The yak-141 only uses two additional lift engines where the JSF has its lift fan placed !

Cheers, Deino

I wouldn't be surprised if it does match up to the F-22 fairly well. Russia has been doing quite well when competing against US planes in the export market, even with countries that only bought US stuff in the past and this suggests they are producing some nice planes. Also this plane is going to be coming into production years after the F-22 so they have had some time to catch up with any tech gap that exists. I know they have a smaller military budget than the US but military budget is not the only factor that comes into play when designing aircraft if it was i doubt the JAS-39 would be as good if not better than the J-10 since China spends more or military than Sweden.

Originally posted by Deino
That's not completely right ! It's true that LM asked for some help - but not for the lift fan - but only for the semi-circular arrangement of the engine exhaust ... The yak-141 only uses two additional lift engines where the JSF has its lift fan placed !

Cheers, Deino

Thank you for correcting Stealth Spy, Deino.
He has a tendency to drivel about matters on aircraft, while borrowing such concepts and ideas from other aircraft boards then coming here and spewing them as if he has a clue. Apparently he did not read the article in it's entirety that I linked, and simply went into his counter commentary. What is interesting here is that he is from India, is very prideful of the Indian air force, the Indian Government wants the JSF, but yet he posts as he does about it. Stealth Spy means well, though.

There is somewhat no doubt that the Russian's have the capabilities to build a comparable aircraft to the F/A-22, not much doubt at all, other than the aritcle I linked stating otherwise [asking for European help]. The real doubt is in their ability to serial produce it at any remotely significant deterrence level. The Russian's have been playing around with a number of so-claimed aircraft comparable to the F/A-22 for what seems like decades or since the US stated it was working on the F/A-22 and YF-23 types. Example: the Berkut and the MiG-1.42-44, just to name a few. The reality here is that by the time the Russian's or Chinese get around to building an aircraft with the capabilities and characteristics of the Raptor, the Raptor itself will have done progressed to another level. The Russian's, as with other nations, are simply playing catch-up now [just as it was claimed that the US was playing catch-up during the 60-80's] and will be doing so for quite some time into the future.






seekerof

[edit on 23-8-2005 by Seekerof]

Originally posted by Trent
I wouldn't be surprised if it does match up to the F-22 fairly well. Russia has been doing quite well when competing against US planes in the export market, even with countries that only bought US stuff in the past and this suggests they are producing some nice planes. Also this plane is going to be coming into production years after the F-22 so they have had some time to catch up with any tech gap that exists. I know they have a smaller military budget than the US but military budget is not the only factor that comes into play when designing aircraft if it was i doubt the JAS-39 would be as good if not better than the J-10 since China spends more or military than Sweden.

I really don't understand how people can think that Russia will catch up with the US in technology.

Let's just look at it logically:

1) During the cold war, Russia was consistantly behind. It was proven many times in actual combat and confirmed when the US aquired actual Soviet jets.

2) Since the cold war has ended, the US has INCREASED the gap that already existed. The US has spent over 1 TRILLION more dollars on defence over the last decade then Russia has.

3) In order for Russia to catch up, they would be required to exceed US progress over a period of time untill the gap was closed. In order to do that, they must out spend the US over said period of time.

4) Russia has no experience in making an operational stealth aircraft. The US has had THREE, one built in the 60's and the other two built in the 80's. Think about that! The SR-71 was already using RAM, RAP, and shaping for stealth 40 years ago. This was refined with the F-117, and perfected with the B-2. The F-117 has been around almost a quarter century and Russia STILL hasn't built a rival!

5) Russia is almost as behind in electronics as it is in stealth. Thier computers are a joke compared with western ones (hence why they are going to Europe for help) and their avionics are behind as well.

All in all, it is going to take MONEY to catch up to the US. You need to OUTSPEND the US to catch up. There really isn't any way around it. So untill a country can compete with a 400 billion dollar per year military budget, they simply can't catch up.

Something else interesting to think about. Russia is currently in the process of switching over to Pratt and Witney engines for their transports. When the AN-224 Condor takes off, they have to sit on the end of the runway for two minutes at full power, waiting to see if an engine fails. If there is no engine failure during the two minutes at power, they release the brakes and take off. They've had such a high failure rate for their engines, that this is the only way they can ensure a safe take off.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Thank you for correcting Stealth Spy, Deino.
He has a tendency to drivel about matters on aircraft, while borrowing such concepts and ideas from other aircraft boards then coming here and spewing them as if he has a clue. Apparently he did not read the article in it's entirety that I linked, and simply went into his counter commentary. What is interesting here is that he is from India, is very prideful of the Indian air force, the Indian Government wants the JSF, but yet he posts as he does about it.

*shakes head*.

I have to ask if that was necessary ?

I wont even bother reply to this flame bait of yours.

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by Trent
I wouldn't be surprised if it does match up to the F-22 fairly well. Russia has been doing quite well when competing against US planes in the export market, even with countries that only bought US stuff in the past and this suggests they are producing some nice planes. Also this plane is going to be coming into production years after the F-22 so they have had some time to catch up with any tech gap that exists. I know they have a smaller military budget than the US but military budget is not the only factor that comes into play when designing aircraft if it was i doubt the JAS-39 would be as good if not better than the J-10 since China spends more or military than Sweden.

I really don't understand how people can think that Russia will catch up with the US in technology.

By that i mean they will catch up to the level of tech the US had when the F-22 was made. Which is what is needed to make a plane with similar capabilities. The Russian claim is their new plane will be similar to the F-22 as it is now, not similar in capabilities to any future US planes or later versions. It's obvious they are behind in tech if the new plane they are just building now only has the same tech level as a plane that the US already has in production but they do claim to have caught up to the level of tech the US HAD when they approved the final design of the F-22 in Febuary 1995. I was saying it's possible that Russia has caught up to the tech level the US had in 1995, not the tech level the US has today.

[edit on 24-8-2005 by Trent]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
All in all, it is going to take MONEY to catch up to the US. You need to OUTSPEND the US to catch up. There really isn't any way around it. So untill a country can compete with a 400 billion dollar per year military budget, they simply can't catch up.

Actually, if they just wait long enough and spend less, they could eventually come up to a similar level if there is a law of diminishing return concerning technological advances, which is probably so and which will be reached when a number of theoretical performance limits will be reached. You seem to be assuming a linear increase in technology with the amount of money spent, that isn't necessarily so.

Originally posted by American Mad Man
The US has had THREE, one built in the 60's and the other two built in the 80's. Think about that! The F-117 has been around almost a quarter century and Russia STILL hasn't built a rival!

Why would Russia even need to, what would they need to use it for? Can't go to war with either the US or China as that would result in nuclear war and that against a bunch of ragtag Chechens armed with AK-47s and RPGs it won't be of much use either.

[edit on 24-8-2005 by Simon666]

Originally posted by Simon666
Why would Russia even need to, what would they need to use it for? Can't go to war with either the US or China as that would result in nuclear war and that against a bunch of ragtag Chechens armed with AK-47s and RPGs it won't be of much use either.

I agree wholeheartedly with your premise here, Simon666, but using that same logic, why does Russia now feel the need to build a competetor to the F/A-22?






seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
I agree wholeheartedly with your premise here, Simon666, but using that same logic, why does Russia now feel the need to build a competetor to the F/A-22?

Some kind of inferiority complex or dick measuring contest? They built the utterly useless Buran as a more or less carbon copy of the Space Shuttle just to have something the US has as well. Nevermind that unmanned expendable rockets were cheaper and from a military point of view a true spaceplane was more interesting, albeit completely new and perhaps more difficult to develop. It made a single flight in space and is now standing in musea and entertainment parks as some kind of sick billions of rubles costing joke.

[edit on 24-8-2005 by Simon666]