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Originally posted by NWguy83
Mig-29 is a piece of crap, hardly anyone buys them anymore.
The US Air Force claims the F-15C is in several respects inferior to, or at best equal to the MiG-29...( & others).... which are variously superior in acceleration, maneuverability, engine thrust, rate of climb, avionics, firepower, radar signature, or range.
Lt. Col. David "Logger" Rose, a Persian Gulf War F-15 pilot, 41, recalled the time "12 years ago to the day in Desert Storm" when an Iraqi MiG-29 chased away his F-15 on the first day of the war.
Originally posted by picard_is_actually_a_grey
Well I would argue the price reduction of the raptor from $180million to $130million is a clear signal the company is operating in a highly uncompetitive market and has inflated wage costs, it also shows you how large the labour costs are as a percentage of total costs even in a manufacturing industry.
As materials are fixed costs for each plane, the easiest factor of production to change to increase demand from the market (the DoD) are labour costs. Capital costs are an initial investment which decreases over time with each plane produced, however this is a marginal effect that occurs over a long time of mass output and certianly wouldnt explain the huge reduction of price after some dozen planes produced.
If Lockheed was operating in a truely highly competitive market where final demand for the product from the DoD is price elastic, they may have little power to pass on higher wage costs to the DoD through a higher price. However with the reduced orders for the raptor, perhaps conditions in the market are changing. Still we end up with the same conclusion, planes of equal sophistication can be built in both countries for a vastly different price.
Originally posted by American Mad Man
The reduction experienced in the raptor is true in ALL aircraft from ALL countries. As more are made, the price goes down.
And stop with this 'uncompetative market' garbage. Thats what it is, GARBAGE. The US aerospace industry is THE most competative in the world. You have Lock-mart, Boeing, AND Northrope all competing for every freaking contract. The rest of the world COMBINED can barely stand up to those three alone.
No, sorry. The price goes up for each plane when fewer are built because the total income from sales has to cover all the costs. If the US had signed a deal for 700 like they originally wanted, the price would have been vastly lower.
Wage has absolutely ZERO to do with it. Lockheed isn't suddenly upping the price of the plane to make more money, it's a result of the DoD asking for fewer airframes.
[edit on 19-7-2005 by American Mad Man]
Sukhoi general director Mikhail Pogosyan has invited European companies to participate in developing Russia’s fifth-generation fighter – the first time Russia has opened the way into its armoury for foreign suppliers since the Second World War, writes Howard Gethin.
Pogosyan says European firms could supply components for the aircraft, highlighting avionics as a likely area of collaboration.
Sukhoi has previously installed French, Indian and Israeli avionics and electronic warfare equipment in Su-30s for delivery to India, but no foreign components have been used on its aircraft intended for use by the Russian forces.
Pogosyan says Sukhoi is formulating the specifications for Russia’s fifth-generation fighter, which it is thought to be provisionally designated the T50.
“Many questions here could be the subject of joint work by the Russian and European aerospace industries,” he says.
Any co-operation would require regulation and international agreement in areas such as intellectual property and to control the proliferation of military technology, a Sukhoi official told the Vremya Novostei daily newspaper.
Originally posted by Seekerof
Quite frankly, the Russians cannot and have not built anything "equal" to the Raptor.
the Russian's cannot do this program on their own.
Originally posted by Stealth Spy
That they "have not" is true...infact no country other than the US has.....but saying that they cannot is the height of arrogance to say the least.
Originally posted by Seekerof
'Arrogance' is subjective, Stealth Spy.
Try being a bit more objective when replying on something that I personally lean towards you not knowing much about.
Originally posted by vorazechul
which one of you all is an iconomist or an expert in russian industry so to know enough about the subject and say with seartency something like "they can't do it/make it/build it"
This topic was about a new russian aircraft and charecteristics and not about the russian's iconomy and industrial and intelectual capabilities.
You all going so far of topic every time it's about a russian aircraftproject is simply...bad bad
[edit on 20-7-2005 by vorazechul]
Well the Russians have gone public to say that the first flight is in 2007
Originally posted by tomcat ha
So that would turn the Russian budget say in 150-200 billion. Still an advantage for the US but they have several wars which eat money like hell. Russia has Chetnia or however you spell it but doesnt cost as much money as its only 1 war.
Originally posted by Stealth Spy
However the funding for such an ambitious project is a concern. However Russia is the world's 2nd largest spender on defence and spends over 60 billion $ anually; true it may be no match for the US's 400+billion $ budget, but most of that has gone into funding the ongoing wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc ... so i wont be very surprised if i happen to learn that Russia spends the same amount (or only a little less) as the US on defence R&D. And Russia have been trimming their huge air force, army & navy of late making it a "lean-mean" outfit....thus reducing the spending on salaries, maintainence,etc And they have been having great sales of their weaponry of late to China, India, middle east, etc.
Defense appropriations emerged as the top priority in the draft budget approved 23 August 2004 by the Russian cabinet. Military spending is due to rise to 528 billion rubles ($18 billion - $1 is about 29 rubles) in 2005, up 28 percent from last year's 411 billion rubles ($14 billion). The nominal defense budget stays at a level of 2.6% to 2.7% of GDP. Years of neglect and under-funding have left the Russian forces in desperate need of extra funds. For 2005 the military was supposed to spend 146 billion rubles [$5 billion] for modernization.