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Russia to launch new F/A-22 competetor

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posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 08:39 AM
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but tht still doesnt answer my question. surely the americans will be having knowledge of these facts. i mean if they are true (ill check them up jus to be sure) then the whole Raptor Project is a waste isnt it??




posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by puneetsg
but tht still doesnt answer my question. surely the americans will be having knowledge of these facts. i mean if they are true (ill check them up jus to be sure) then the whole Raptor Project is a waste isnt it??


because the stealth is effective against some radars and some systems, mostly western, but also some russians, it decrease the probability of a missile impact, stealth concept is nice, but also is overated, again in the tech evolution there are some mistakes, im not saying that stealth is a mistake, but isnt the great solution

the raptor isnt a stealth concept, it use a conventional fighter airframe -because of aerodynamics- adapted with stealth, actually that could be the reason why the "more stealthier" f23 lose the competition, the americans arent stupid



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 08:53 AM
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Previously someone on these very same forums quoted a airforce general who said that the current generation of foreign planes which hostile nations might use in the future outperform current US planes. I copy pasted that article on a other forum i go to. forums.beyondunreal.com...

I think the B2 can be dectected from about 30 km with the most advanced service radars in service which are most likely very expensive and rare. maybee the new experimental radars could dectect it at a range of 100-150 km but it most likely they will only enter service with the s500 which is due for 2010. I do think the S400 can dectect the F22 at about 50-70 km's range. That is quite short because it will use supercruise. However it is long enough to launch missles which do have a decreased chance of hitting but are still dangerous.



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 09:07 AM
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rcs, aslo depend in which band you are detecting the target



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by grunt2

Originally posted by puneetsg
but tht still doesnt answer my question. surely the americans will be having knowledge of these facts. i mean if they are true (ill check them up jus to be sure) then the whole Raptor Project is a waste isnt it??


because the stealth is effective against some radars and some systems, mostly western, but also some russians, it decrease the probability of a missile impact, stealth concept is nice, but also is overated, again in the tech evolution there are some mistakes, im not saying that stealth is a mistake, but isnt the great solution

the raptor isnt a stealth concept, it use a conventional fighter airframe -because of aerodynamics- adapted with stealth, actually that could be the reason why the "more stealthier" f23 lose the competition, the americans arent stupid


ahhhh. now i get it. so wht u basically saying is tht, its not only stealth (which is tom tom-ed by most Raptor supporters all the time) but a combination of partial stealth combined with generally good fighter aircraft charecterists is wht makes the F-22 a very dangerous aircraft. cool



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 09:20 AM
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also raptor supersonic agility and cruiser are good compared with other fighters, but you cant be the best in all the areas -stealth, supersonic agility, supercruiser, subsonic agilty- there are some compromises, like the conventional airframe with stealth, and delta wing -unstable design with subsonic agility or supersonic agility with max speed,but the 22s lovers love to say that is the best in all, but you cant, simply physics

[edit on 1-9-2005 by grunt2]



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 09:45 AM
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Grunt2, are you aware that the F/A-22 Raptor design is a fully stealth design?

Apparantly not, well it is obvious that it could not fly with the Fly-By-wire systems on board. The Raptor's Airframe is a very unstable one because of the RAS(Radar-absorbing-structure). They didn't just coat it with RAM and called it stealth. Decades of research and development went into this craft to insure that this Aircraft is in fact stealth under many frequencies.

By the way, since you think Stealth is overrated, and because you seem to have a better understanding of electromagnetics, unlike us folk who are below common sense apparantly, I challenge you to come up with a technology that promises everything stealth does, but is not overrated, and it actually works, since stealth doesn't work apparantly. And don't use plasma, that's already being researched by the Russians.

Need I remind you that the term "Stealth" implies it cannot be seen, so if a craft can be seen by RADAR, it's not a Stealth design, it's just a cool looking aircraft that costs alot of money.

Shattered OUT...



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 10:17 AM
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He never said that stealth doesnt work. Just that it is overrated. I agree with that. Stealth altrough very handy limits the other capabilities of the plane. So the best solution would be stealthy but not extremely so. I think the F22 is more of a best of all worlds plane than particulairly stealthy. Altrough it will be more stealthy than the other planes it is much more expensive.



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by ShatteredSkies

Need I remind you that the term "Stealth" implies it cannot be seen, so if a craft can be seen by RADAR, it's not a Stealth design, it's just a cool looking aircraft that costs alot of money.

Shattered OUT...


Never saw a description better for the F-22... that's what it is



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 11:27 AM
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If the F/A-22 is as "over-rated" and "over-hyped" as you and others claim it is grunt2, please enlighten us as to the fighter(s) that are better than it in those specified categories you so speak of.

as posted by grunt2
also raptor supersonic agility and cruiser are good compared with other fighters, but you cant be the best in all the areas -stealth, supersonic agility, supercruiser, subsonic agilty- there are some compromises, like the conventional airframe with stealth, and delta wing -unstable design with subsonic agility or supersonic agility with max speed,but the 22s lovers love to say that is the best in all, but you cant, simply physics


If you cannot name one serial produced fighter that is proven to outperform the F/A-22 in ALL those areas [combined picture here, grunt2], guess what.........? Would seem that perhaps those "22s lovers" are then correct in their assertions, eh?




seekerof

[edit on 1-9-2005 by Seekerof]



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 02:00 PM
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Well most F22 lovers think that the F22 is better in everything. The F22 is only the best at stealth. Perhaps also at supercruise but i barely know anything about supercruise capabilities of the other planes.

I know it is outperformed in speed manuverabillity and some more important areas. I do think the F22 has the best combined performance but it is also allot more expensive than all of the other planes which try to compete.



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by Chemapeich
Never saw a description better for the F-22... that's what it is


What an IGNORANT statement.

The Raptor is completely dominant. It can use it's AMRAAM missles to take out any fighter in the world without even concern of being detected.

You do the math:

6 AMRAAMS x $50 million an enemy plane = extremely cost effective!

Or, if you are into jokes:

ATF program - $18,000,000,000 in R&D

Procurement of Raptors - $100,000,000 Each

Procurement of AMRAAM missles - $386,000 Each

Money invested in A2A superiority fighters - $100,000,000,000+/-

Laughing as the US smacks around other airforces like they were clubbing baby seals - PRICELESS!



posted on Sep, 1 2005 @ 03:18 PM
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AMM Priceless indeed, you know why? Because it ensures that our men and women in Uniform will return home in one piece and not in body bags. That, is why the Raptor is worth it’s weight in gold.



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 11:49 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
AMM Priceless indeed, you know why? Because it ensures that our men and women in Uniform will return home in one piece and not in body bags. That, is why the Raptor is worth it’s weight in gold.

Your soldiers will go back home the same way either you have the raptor or not, because wars US is fighting today and in the future doesn't need such plane, for what? you fight poor countries just for petrol... in the other hand, if you fought against somebody with some kind of air to air capability (and you won't because this countries are not economically interesting to fight) then we should see how the raptor performs in real conditions and fighting against a much bigger number of planes, because it will be made in very small numbers and you will NEVER see more than two or three together... also, probably if somewhen you fight a real airforce, the stealth technology will be obsolete (it's much cheaper to find the way to destroy stealthyness than making a plane stealth) and then, the raptor will be in serious problems



posted on Sep, 6 2005 @ 05:19 PM
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because it will be made in very small numbers and you will NEVER see more than two or three together... also, probably if somewhen you fight a real airforce, the stealth technology will be obsolete (it's much cheaper to find the way to destroy stealthyness than making a plane stealth) and then, the raptor will be in serious problems


What a load of BS, there are already 51 Raptors at Nellis. If congress has their way 180 raptors will be produced, if the AF has their way 300 will be produced. So tell me, why would we not see more than 2 or 3 at the same time?

Also name me one adversary that would have the ability to shoot down the Raptor, making it ineffective?



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 12:03 AM
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ahh, WP23, again with your 51 raptors from wikipedia????, i tell you once again at that date were only 25 planes, the others are for test or prototypes

a plane that can shootdown a f22??, well with good tactics, the mig31 or su 27, since both use different radar bands, and active radar heads missiles, actually thats the reason why you read all these guys from mikoyan, saying "we can detect stealth", is pretty obvious, since they have multiply radar bands, what is funny is that in the 80s when they said that the 31s can also operate in the c band all the western critics said that it was useless since had low resolution, but who cares about the resolution when you have aa10 with active heads or aa12???

there is other thing about the f22, it will be builded in small numbers, that will affect the BVR tactics, why????, well some guys think that air combat is just aim and shoot, thats wrong, the missiles fails and in a big proportion, that happens, to an effective BVR tactics, you need many planes with many missiles on the sky, numbers are important, another problem for the raptor


[edit on 7-9-2005 by grunt2]



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 05:34 AM
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In fact I doubt they will build the projected 180... the number of planes to buy only has descended... why? if the plane is SOOOOO great, why don't they buy more, instead of cutting the numbers? It's easy: because the raptor doesn't worth it's cost... and the guys in the congress and the pentagon knows it... I guess that the onnly reason this program hasn't been stopped is for marketing purposes only...
What I meaned with 2 or 3 planes is that, with the number of planes that are gonna be built, they won't make big squads of raptors, and this might be a problem, because as grunt said, missiles can fail the target and then? imagine a group of 3 raptors without missiles that might have defeated some other planes, but still have to fight several others because the enemy had a greater number... and then they will have to go dogfight, and I know you will say "oh, the 60º AOA!!" and I say... I really doubt a lot the raptor can win a dogfight against a SU 27 or a Eurofighter... and never wil win if those planes are in bigger numbers... so what would happen? no air dominance, raptor defeated



posted on Sep, 7 2005 @ 05:47 AM
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Link To Story

Sukhoi is to produce an advanced Su-35 variant of its Su-27 fighter for the Russian air force, amid concerns that the parallel development of Moscow’s fifth-generation fighter will be delayed by a shortage of funds.

Preliminary design work on the so-called T-50 is scheduled for completion late next year, but the Russian counterpart to the USA’s Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter is unlikely to enter service and mass production until 2015, says Sukhoi general designer Mikhail Pogosyan.

The design bureau has already spent about $100 million of its own funds on the project, he says.

It is unclear how the proposed interim Su-35 would differ from the upgraded Su-27SM now entering Russian air force service, although it is expected to share the Su-30MK’s external layout and have new avionics, equipment and armaments intended for the T-50.

The Moscow-based Avionika research and development corporation is currently bench-testing T-50 avionics, including a digital flight-control system.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Mod Edit: Truncated Link Length


[edit on 12/9/2005 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 01:02 AM
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I am surprised by so much ignorance in this thread.

Stealth is over-rated. Why do I say that? Because most advanced countires have anti-stealth radars and they can take out stealth objects. Yes stealth give you some edge, but the biggest edge comes when you are fighting against 3rd world countries.

Also while China isnt getting any stealth products anytime soon, they are getting anti-stealth produces daily. Also thatnks to Clinton they have your people Aegis defence system and they new SAM is a mix between RUssian S-300 and Israel sold PAC-3 Tech.

Out,
Russian



posted on Sep, 12 2005 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by Russian


Stealth is over-rated. Why do I say that? Because most advanced countires have anti-stealth radars and they can take out stealth objects. Yes stealth give you some edge, but the biggest edge comes when you are fighting against 3rd world countries.


check out all the pages of this thread on Stealth Dtetection Systems >> www.abovetopsecret.com...


Also thatnks to Clinton they have your people Aegis defence system and they new SAM is a mix between RUssian S-300 and Israel sold PAC-3 Tech.

The Chinese FT-2000 is based on the S-300 and Patriot tech from Israel (that Israel got from America to develop the Arrow system). Note that the PAC-3 is much better and came out much later than the baseline Patriot.

Fortunately, India have been offered all of these : the latest PAC-3, the latest Russian S-300 PMU3, the S-400 and the Israeli Arrow-2


Also the Chinese Aegis radar on the 052C is the Ukranian KVNAT Aegis class radar in addition to plagerized French systems.



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