Russia to launch new F/A-22 competetor

Originally posted by osram
Btw: All of this general bragging where almost no one uses factual information is sooooooooo booring. *yawn*

I miss the really nice Weapon-Technology discussions from iskander and the like.

Oh that caused a chuckle, I can't vouch for everything in this thread but if you're responding to the last couple of posts, they are backed by factual and public information. However if you have something to contribute please feel free to do so...

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Additionally because of its stealth, the F-22 pilot will in almost all cases have the element of surprise.

This was echoed by an F-22 pilot and Raptor squadron command sometime back. Due to the fact that the Raptor enjoys such great SA and the fact that it has VLO features they almost always roll up on the OPFOR's six (Sidewinder range) undetected, and the OPFOR cannot get in WVR range undetected.

F/A-22? Well the Russians have the Su-37(NATO A.K.A.Terminator). After seeing the flight demo, this aircraft is a work of art! Hands down! awesome thrust vectoring capability! The U.S better get online with the program. Although yes, the have a limited number due to the jockeying about with the AL-37FU engines and the older Lyulka Saturn AL-31FU powerplant which were the initially planned engines.

You despised Russia too much I think. Yes, US won the cold war almost two decades ago, but Russia has recoverd their national power from high oil price. Don't forget Russia still is the biggest country either according to area or according to resources.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
Its ability to supercruise allows it to disengage from a WVR fight though at will

Only if the other guy is out of missiles.

Additionally because of its stealth, the F-22 pilot will in almost all cases have the element of surprise.

Only if the other guy doesn't have VLO aircraft. The SA of the F-22 is dependent on the capabilities of the aircraft its fighting.

[edit on 1/2/08 by kilcoo316]

reply to post by kilcoo316


If the F-22 pilot can make the other pilot run out of gas, it doesn't matter how many missiles he still has. These missiles still need to be able to achieve a good lock, before they present a threat too.

If the threat aircraft is emitting any type of EM source, the F-22 is gonna know about them. If they're not emitting, then it'll be awfully hard for them to try to find or engage the F-22 in the first place. They'd have to know where to look with their IRST, and that info would be provided by Radar. The F-22 would've picked that up, and unless the threat aircraft had a high degree of LO, it should be able to pick up the threat aircraft too with it's radar.

I'm not saying that it's not possible for an aircraft to present a threat, but no other country has the experience with stealth that the US has, so the likelihood that this LO aircraft would be in service anytime soon is doubtful.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by kilcoo316

 

If the F-22 pilot can make the other pilot run out of gas, it doesn't matter how many missiles he still has. These missiles still need to be able to achieve a good lock, before they present a threat too.

Erm, no. If the F-22 tries to disengage - as soon as he goes wings level the other guy will stick a rocket up his ass.

Mach 1.5 < Mach 4

Originally posted by BlueRaja

If the threat aircraft is emitting any type of EM source, the F-22 is gonna know about them. If they're not emitting, then it'll be awfully hard for them to try to find or engage the F-22 in the first place. They'd have to know where to look with their IRST, and that info would be provided by Radar. The F-22 would've picked that up, and unless the threat aircraft had a high degree of LO, it should be able to pick up the threat aircraft too with it's radar.

IRST cues radar, not the other way around.

The EF2000 has a very comprehensive passive detection suite, and everyone knows the Russians are in love with IRSTs - it was a big deal to them that the MiG-29 could conduct entirely passive attacks with IRST and R-73.


Indeed, with the Russian love of the IRST bound to result in inclusion in the PAK-FA, if there were no off-board sensors present for either platform, it would be reasonable to wonder would the F-22 be at a distinct disadvantage.

Man, I’m really tired of the same old tired crap that I repeatedly see on ATS forums.

The same old anti-Russian banter based on their supposed inferior technological abilities and they are supposedly so poor that they wear raggedy close and eat bread with pig fat for breakfast.

And I’m sick and tired of repeating the same thing over and over again, after my repeated trips to Russia since 1991, I’ve seen an economic revival on unprecedented scale, and I’m simply tired of this racist “poor drunken Russians” slander.

I’ve personally meet and worked with professionals that left American companies to work for Russians defense industry, the live in apartment that cost more then most American houses, drive luxury cars and have summer houses for well deserved r&r.

I have pictures to prove it, so if anybody cares to see how Russians really live these days, let me know and I’ll put up some pics of the summer house I was invited to for a visit.

Russian economy is BOOMING! They got oil money bursting out their ears. Almost entire Europe is fueled by Russian natural gas.

Rolls Royce makes special “Russian” models and has been practically booked for a decade manufacturing specifically for Russian customers, and that’s why Bentley is the luxury choice in the West. Rolls Royce has been reserved by Russian oil money.

Currently Russians are just like the Arab oil kings of the 20th century, get it through your heads, it the REALITY OF NOW.

Let me put it this way, their middle class is growing at an astonishing rate, and car dealer ships a popping up like mushrooms all over the place, even though the prices are TWICE of the actuall retail prices becaseu of theh heavy government taxation.

For example, while I was there last time, a friend of mine biugh a Mitsubishi Montero, price tag $50 thousand, while in US it’s HALF that.

Same with all other cars, and they are BRAN NEW. I’ve never seen so many luxury vehicles as I‘ve seen in Russian cities. For example, in “political” Penza I’ve seen a $300K Mazeratti in Penza and my jaw dropped. Other then that new generation kids are buying brand new Mazda RX-8s, Suzuki Yakabusa and driving them all over the place.

I’ve seen wealth all over the place with my own eyes, all I can say, so please knock of all that old tired propaganda of “poor dirty drunken Russians” that can’t hammer a nail into a board with out bending it.

What I’ve seen are people that work had, like what they do, demand the pay they deserve, and leave the jobs they don’t like on regular bases, because the job market is open to find what suits one best.

Are they going to build a 5TH gen fighter? No doubt. SU-27 came years after F-15 and did so for specific reason. SU-27 simply outclasses the F-15, and it has been shown in exercises over and over again.

Why do they wait? Because they want to get it right and not rush into it, and they have been doing it through their ENTIRE history.

Why are there numerous contenders? Because to the countrary of what Western propaganda has been telling us for decades, Soviet/Russian way of chosing a final contender is based of FIEARCE COMPETITON between rival design berous, and the winner is not always the 0one that developes the most capable and technological advanced product.

A simple example would be the MiG-15. It was adopted because it was cheaper and simpler to manufacture, even though few are even aware that it had a rival which outclassed it in just about every way.

It’s as simple as that, and the same is happening at this time.

iskander,

Nobody doubts the technological merit of Russian systems. However, western observers have a pragmatic, if not over-simplified way of analyzing Russian military hardware: performance on the field of battle against a technologically similar or superior foe. That is, after all, the ultimate proof of concept.

The Russians develop fine technology testbeds and demonstrators. But they have a dismal record of fielding operational, effective tactical systems. Most of their "lets buy stuff" money is poured into strategic systems, and the tactical stuff remains in the showroom or the test lab. What little tactical stuff that rolls off the factory floor mostly get bought by Russians, or by 3rd world nations who cannot either afford or who can effectively field complex western systems.

Nations with real military budgets and real military needs generally procure western systems and not Russian systems. Maybe if Russian systems performed better in the field in real conflicts, then the market wouldl open up.....

It really has nothing to do with racism or western snobbery. It's simple western capitalistic analysis of an inferior product, or maybe an acceptable product being sold and used by inferior users. Either way, western opinions aren't about to change until the Russkies start winning a few "rounds" on the battlefield......

reply to post by kilcoo316


What range are we talking about, with this hypothetical engagement. If the foe has to use his AB to fight the F-22, he's not gonna have an unlimited number of opportunities to engage. If the F-22 pilot keeps his distance from the foe, he can still get outside the kinematic envelope of the M4 missile.

As for the IRST- there has to be some radar cue(whether it be from the foe or an AWACs type craft), for the pilot to know where to look with their passive sensors. It's a big sky, and the field of view of the IRST has it's limitations. In any event, if they're not a LO aircraft, the F-22 will know they're there, before the foe knows the F-22 is there. The foe aircraft still has to get close enough to where they can get a lock on the F-22, which puts them at an extreme disadvantage.

name one recent conflict where both sides were on a equal tech level?

Originally posted by sir_stinky_pinky
F/A-22? Well the Russians have the Su-37(NATO A.K.A.Terminator). After seeing the flight demo, this aircraft is a work of art! Hands down! awesome thrust vectoring capability! The U.S better get online with the program. Although yes, the have a limited number due to the jockeying about with the AL-37FU engines and the older Lyulka Saturn AL-31FU powerplant which were the initially planned engines.

You're serious? No...

I dont simply get it. U.S. has always been superior as Russia. Im not an aircraft specialist, but I like statistics. Look at war statistics, how many jets have lost U.S.(or their allies) and how many Russia(and they customers??) Some hints: Israel-Egypt war, Korea war, Vjetnam war!!
It almost in every conflict a 1:10 for U.S. jets.
Russians always will thell that they have better weapons or equal. This was whit Okoban(new AK-47 version), Saiga, T-95, Su-35, submarines and so on. But the facts are different. Every country that can afford buy American weapons instead russians. That same AK-47- its only superiority against M-16 is realbility and cost.
Only thing that is really superior to Americas weapons is S-300 PM weapon system against Patriot.
But thats my opinion!!!

Originally posted by BlueRaja
What range are we talking about,

It doesn't matter what range WVR ACM is knife fight stuff.


You said supercruise would allow the F-22 to disengage from WVR combat. If the other guy has missiles, that is plainly not the case.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
As for the IRST- there has to be some radar cue(whether it be from the foe or an AWACs type craft), for the pilot to know where to look with their passive sensors.

No, not really - the IRST searches automatically. It would be a pretty useless passive search instrument that needed to be told where the target was.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
It's a big sky, and the field of view of the IRST has it's limitations.

Yeap, they typically have azimuthal ranges of +- 70 degrees in both horizontal and vertical axis. If you've any idea of the threat axis, its a fair bet you'll snag something on an IRST in good atmospheric conditions.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
In any event, if they're not a LO aircraft, the F-22 will know they're there, before the foe knows the F-22 is there. The foe aircraft still has to get close enough to where they can get a lock on the F-22, which puts them at an extreme disadvantage.

I assume the PAK-FA is a VLO aircraft, thus the F-22 is no better off in that regard either.

reply to post by kilcoo316


If an F22 pilot is shrewd, he won't allow his opponent to get that close in the first place. What's the max effective range of WVR missile in a tail chase? If the F22 is close enough, it'll catch him, but if the F22 is fighting supersonic, then if the opponent doesn't also have supercruise, they're gonna have to use afterburners to stay WVR. IRST is good, but you have to know where to point it.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
If an F22 pilot is shrewd, he won't allow his opponent to get that close in the first place. What's the max effective range of WVR missile in a tail chase? If the F22 is close enough, it'll catch him, but if the F22 is fighting supersonic, then if the opponent doesn't also have supercruise, they're gonna have to use afterburners to stay WVR.

You don't fight supersonically - turn radii are too big.

The other guy will just turn inside you and launch away.


Range is between 20 and 30 km for most, 80ish if you count a MICA.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
IRST is good, but you have to know where to point it.

The whole idea behind IRST is that it tells you where to point!

Originally posted by kilcoo316
Only if the other guy is out of missiles. Erm, no. If the F-22 tries to disengage…

You're not thinking dynamic enough; within visual range is sort of misleading as this envelope can be extend out to 10 nautical miles or more. Don't think of it as strictly physics and or a movie scene, real life is much more complex, unknown and interesting.

The F-22 Raptor apparently offers certain (as of yet unclear) capabilities in this arena due to its superior situational awareness (pilot interface/sensors) speed, maneuverability, defense systems/countermeasures, incredible VLO (radar and infrared) characteristics. Suffice it to say that yes a Raptor driver has an ability to more easily (than contemporary fighters) disengage and discontinue the fighter at almost any envelope and deny engagement to the enemy.

Invisibility - even with eyes on

When the Raptor finds itself in a dogfight, it is no longer beyond visual range, but the advantage of stealth isn't diminished. It maintains "high ground" even at close range.

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.

Source

Originally posted by kilcoo316
The SA of the F-22 is dependent on the capabilities of the aircraft its fighting.

And this is different from any other fighter? The point is how these current and or hypothetical fighters, in terms of capability, match up against the F-22 on paper and then on the battlefield. In any case it's reasonable to say that in the near term there won't be anything which matches or exceeds the Raptors capabilities. And if anyone insists otherwise I'll believe it when I see it and it's (proven) capabilities, until then it's an exercise in pointless speculation. The Raptor is here now and fully operational.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
Indeed, with the Russian love of the IRST bound to result in inclusion in the PAK-FA.

IRST as a main suite of search and attack is a relatively new concept, hence unproven and much more limiting than radar, this goes for capability and reliability. The US military and aerospace community does not share the same enthusiasm in terms of IRST capability (and more important reliability) and functionally in an actual conflict. Pardon my skepticism but I'm not impressed with IRST, mainly because so many factors have to be granted in order for it even to have a plausible capability.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
…if there were no off-board sensors present for either platform, it would be reasonable to wonder would the F-22 be at a distinct disadvantage.

One, PAK-FA has yet to even fly, let alone demonstrate and test systems capabilities, when that happens you can have decide where such a wonder is reasonable or not. Furthermore, we also do not yet know the full capabilities of the F-22 in regards to this field. All in all, I don't think a Raptor driver is sweating because he might face an IRST capable fighter; ask those OPFOR pilots however how they feel about going up against a Raptor.

Originally posted by iskander
SU-27 came years after F-15 and did so for specific reason. SU-27 simply outclasses the F-15, and it has been shown in exercises over and over again.

You're goanna need more than a post about cheap cars to get away with that ridicules two minute assessment of yours. This is not such a clear cut issue to make immature comments like that. And as for your exercise go read more on the subject then come back and discuss, I suggest ATS Google Search. And let me just end by pointing out real world use, results and effectiveness, but that's not as important as orchestrated exercises. Which by their very nature are limiting let alone when artificial parameters are added.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
It doesn't matter what range WVR ACM is knife fight stuff.

This isn't Hollywood… That's not always the case anymore, when the F-22 is forced by virtue of the parameters to enter into a "dogfight" this happens.

Combat Aircraft, 2007, May

Raptor Flag, report by Maj Lawrence Spinetta, USAF

During the exercise, a F-22A was once encountered with three F-16 in WVR. After the former had killed two of the laters, the Raptor and the 3rd F-16 killed each other in a mutual kill.

Link

When the F-22 Raptor is allowed to freely engage at will under more realistic parameters this happens…

While it wasn't part of a hard-turning furball, an F-22--with its Amraams and Sidewinders expended--slipped into visual range behind an F-16 and undetected made a simulated kill with its cannon during the stealth fighter's first large-scale exercise and deployment outside the continental U.S.

Within visual-range combat and, in particular, gun kills are anachronisms. In amassing 144 kills to no losses during the first week of the joint-service Northern Edge exercise in Alaska last summer, only three air-to-air "kills" were in the visual arena--two involving AIM-9 Sidewinders and one the F-22's cannon.

The 27th Fighter Sqdn. aircraft--on deployment from Langley AFB, Va.--didn't get to show off their J-Turn and Cobra maneuvers or their high-angle-of-attack, high-off-boresight (which actually will arrive with the AIM-9X) and unique nose-pointing capabilities. The reason, those involved say, was because the victims of the three encounters, flying conventional fighters, never had a clue they were being stalked by F-22s until they were "killed."

Source

That's without AIM-9X, yes the Raptor can slip in and out of both WVR and BVR engaging and disengaging at will undetected.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
…the IRST searches automatically. It would be a pretty useless passive search instrument that needed to be told where the target was.

The IRST field of view while in scan/track is limiting when compared to radar, unless cued to a more specific section with other sensors it is a limited search and track system. That's without even discussing its other many limitations.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
If you’ve any idea of the threat axis, it’s a fair bet you’ll snag something on an IRST in good atmospheric conditions.

Assumptions and more assumption, no mention of specifics and or a likely tactical battlefield scenario/outcome.

Originally posted by kilcoo316
I assume the PAK-FA is a VLO aircraft, thus the F-22 is no better off in that regard either.

See above, when (if) this PAK-FA flies, demonstrates and tests its capabilities, we'll see. Also, the F-35 is VLO too, yet will not be as successful as the F-22 in air to air combat.

I have to chuckle when people dismiss the F-35's VLO capabilities and only (incorrectly) assume that's all it offers over existing fighters. Even claiming current generation fighters are "better" fighters than the F-35 will be, and that they will even stand a chance against the Raptor. Yet a new foreign fighter (if it has any form of stealth) will supposedly beat not only the F-35 but the Raptor as well. Ah, logic…

Originally posted by kilcoo316
You don't fight supersonically - turn radii are too big.
The other guy will just turn inside you and launch away.

Again you are not thinking broad enough; this is WWII or even Vietnam for example. Those tactics are archaic when you can (due to superior SA, stealth, and kinematics) can enter WVR in a supersonic dash (or subsonic) from a favorable position, attack undetected and then slip back out to further ranges again. All while being in total control of the engagement, in terms of information, awareness and capability. While the OPFOR has to instantly react and then attempt to fight a ghost, so to speak. This is of course assuming one (Raptor driver) is willing (because he can't really be forced) to enter WVR in the first place.

[edit on 5-2-2008 by WestPoint23]

reply to post by iskander


You probably have been only in the few bigest citys, like Moscow,St.Peterburg. If you really want to see how people live in Russia go for example to Chelabynsk or Velikie Luki or Novgorod. Yes, there are many milionars and bilionars in Russia, but it doesnt mean that Russia as a state is prospering.
And for new cars,very large nummber of them are stolen in Europe. One year ago we have lost about 40 Toyota jeeps in 3 Months. Gues where this cars are now??
The simple people in Russia is poor, and elite is robbing the Russia as they can. Only diference now is that after Putins arival, only loyal people to Kreml have oportunity to make many in Russia. Whole Europe is full whit Russians who dont want to stay in Russia. Also Russia has opened an program for people that want to go back,bur for example in my country only 20 peoples have used this option.

reply to post by swesais


Before Iskander tears you down -- I'd like to point out, having lived in Russia for six years on academic exchange, I can say they are, generally, becoming much wealthier, largely in-part due to the oil-boom.

However, you're correct. The vast majority of Russian towns and cities are largely behind the times.
However, given the catastrophe of the Soviet fall, is this so hard so believe and accept?
I mean, there are quite a few backward hick-towns in the United States, and they've yet to ever feature a disaster on that scale.

Just, providing some insight.

reply to post by Iblis


Well as much as I understand why you could think that talking about lifestyle and how wealthy the civilian population has to do with developing and then real key of producing a 5th gen fighter.

The more that we can relate any economic assessment to the impact that it has on the actual aerospace industry in Russia and not luxury cars that the rich will pay anything for and the poor will keep on getting poorer. Its the same story in pretty much any country that involves the wealthy and the poor.

The more we can stay away from arguments that just spiral down and away from the OP the better.

Originally posted by kilcoo316

Originally posted by BlueRaja
If an F22 pilot is shrewd, he won't allow his opponent to get that close in the first place. What's the max effective range of WVR missile in a tail chase? If the F22 is close enough, it'll catch him, but if the F22 is fighting supersonic, then if the opponent doesn't also have supercruise, they're gonna have to use afterburners to stay WVR.

You don't fight supersonically - turn radii are too big.

The other guy will just turn inside you and launch away.


Range is between 20 and 30 km for most, 80ish if you count a MICA.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
IRST is good, but you have to know where to point it.

The whole idea behind IRST is that it tells you where to point!

The F22 fights a lot differently than conventional aircraft, with regards to tactics. It's quite conceivable that a Raptor pilot would approach supercruising, to get more range for its missiles/element of surprise.
I doubt seriously that an adversary is gonna get a lock on the Raptor at 20-30km, much less 80km. I still think you're very wrong with regards to how effective an IRST would be without any cueing. It simply doesn't have a wide enough view to scan wide sector, without knowing where it's foe is coming from.