How is it imagined? The USAF is unanimously agreed on as the most powerfull airforce in the world. It is clearly the case, and the Raptor is clearly
the very best fighter aircraft ever produced.
I dare say that the Soviet Army was at the time of the invasion of Afghanistan, viewed as the most powerful army in the world and again they were
forced out. Thier advanced technology was combated with terrain and home made explosives, ambushes and captured weaponary.
These examples are important for a simple reason, the soviets thought that they could sweep the floor of the less advanced enemy and were rudely
shocked when it wasn't as easy as they thought. The USAF just might get a rude shock if they decide to attack an advanced airforce, F/A-22 or not.
Your right, it is easier to a degree to combat technology on the ground, but aircombat is very much the same in tactics, ambushes, flanking movements,
assaults etc, the fact is that if you can't directly attack the target one to one you go for some thing you can kill.
LOL! Yeah, OK. Listen, all of the aircrafts electronics, engines, airframes, weapons, and stealth features have all been tested. They all work. The
Raptor has been in literally THOUSANDS of practice exercises against F-15's... The Raptor has proven to be able to fire it's missles, it has done so
MANY times. The missles have been proven IN COMBAT to be effective. The Raptors stealth has been tested both in labs and in real world exercises.
So, you've seen the manufacture information and data on the tests? Uh huh, I have to say that I would have difficultity believeing it. Your right
they have all been tested and I am sure they have been tested well, but its where you say they work. Congrats on testing them F-15s, to me that
doesn't anything, the F-15 isn't in the league of the Eurofighter, Gripen, Rafale or for that matter the latest SU aircraft, so training against
your own makes for nice data, it isn't as effective as a training tool because the pilots have all been through the same courses, training and
culture, you would have a rough idea what they are going to do. Thats why most Armies try to train with foriegn nations, the British train with the
Germans, Noweigans, Spainish, Polish etc, they learn from those exercises because the other nations have different tactics and ideas on solving
problems.
The Battle of Britain is a good example, the Germans believed that their aircraft were far more advanced than anything the British had, they sent
their fighters to some low conflict enivorments to blood them and their pilots, the germans lost, because
they believed their own hype about
themselfs and were out smarted.
As for the missiles etc When was the last time the USAF launched missiles at a trained airforce and conventual war eniviroment? Vietnam? Sure they
launched missiles in Gulf War 1 either at helicopters or in two incidents 2 migs doing a runner to Iran. That proves they can hit a plane moving in a
straight line, hitting a target that never was well trained nor for that matter in a plane that should be flying.
Until the F/A-22 goes up against an airforce, with good training, the F/A-22 will just be a paper tiger, the same goes for the Eurofighter, J-10,
Gripen and Rafale, they look amazing on paper with all thier wee combat tested munitions but time will tell, if they can all work together.
I would agree with Isreal - IMO they are the finest pilot for pilot. But realize that USAF pilots get THE MOST AIR TIME of any pilots in the world.
They have the most experience flying, and it's a proven fact. Yes, the USAF is dependent on their technology BUT SO IS EVERY OTHER AIRFORCE.
As much as you can talk about dogfighting, it is infinitely more likely that long or medium range missles will be used, and NO ONE can match the US in
that department. Our radars are too good, we have too many AWACS, and our missles are just to damn acurate.
You know I made a few checks into your aircrew time for your pilots, in total, yeah your right the USAF have more airtime available for your crews
than any other airforce, but when you start to look in to the proportion of USAF Numbers and then the European nation numbers, there isn't much of a
different. Yes, these days all pilots and airforces depend on technology, I can't deny that, its the fact that when compaired to the RAF, the USAF's
PIC navigation courses are a joke, the RAF still teach their Navigatiors navigation with rulers and stopwatches, not to mention some pretty advanced
navigation training for RAF pilots.
Missiles, hmm, yeah thats a sound theory, I won't fault you on that. I personally believe that while Missile technology has been advancing there is
the same amount of jamming and ECM technology being invested in countering them. I wouldn't be so sure of no one being able to counter the Americans
in Missile technology, the UK, France and Russian all have missiles that are the same or better. Yeah you got great radar and missiles but a WW1 rifle
can still kill you if you screw up.
I would be careful about those AWAC comments, you think any airforce is stupid? If there was a conflict with a well trained airforce, those AWAC
aircraft are going to be one hell of an important Target.
Yes, the USAF relies on AWACS. So does every other half decent airforce. The difference is the US has so many more then anyone else.
Good at carving circles in the sky and not much else?
Yeah, OK. Tell that to my Cousins husband. I'm not sure if he'd try to convince you otherwise or just laugh in your face.
As for your GPS comment, if you really believe that, you are naive. The USAF has a lot of replacement sats for one thing.
Yes, like you said every have decent airforce uses AWAC's support, the thing is they don't
DEPEND on it to the same degree as the americans,
they know that those powerful radars can easily be degraded or shutdown if the enemy really wants to.
What else do your fighter pilots do? They Carve nice big ovals in the sky, that may change when more and more F/A-22s are produced but untill then,
thats what your fighter pilots do. Ask your Cousins husband and ask him when those fighter pilots really had to do their job?
Navie you say? Thats interesting, you didn't reply to my statement either, the US does depend on GPS TOO much for tactical information for strikes
and weapon delievry, do me a favour, tell me how many smart weapons and Cruise missiles have intergrated INS [Internal Navigation System]. The answer
would be very close to 0. Yeah they have replacements, if you believe that the USAF would risk the replacement GPS sats if there was a chance of them
being shot down, they aren't built in a week lad, they take months and months, not to mention the launch systems, do some reading on that American
Mad Man.
Yeah - I guess all that flight time, the most advanced training facilities in the world, etc etc mean nothing. USAF pilots suck just because.
BTW - it's not man vs man - it's man and his machine vs man and his machine. Clearly the US wins half of that argument, and because the USAF is the
largest in the world, with the most training resources in the world, and the largest pilot pool to draw from, it is fair to assume that any supposed
advantage the enemy might enjoy in pilot skill (which frankly, I don't agree with) is very marginal and easily compinsated for by the overwhelming
superiority of USAF technological superiority.
It's like putting the #1 and #2 race car drivers in the world head to head, and giving the #1 guy a BMW while giving the #2 guy an Enzo Ferrari.
Yeah training, every airforce in the world has classes rooms, most of them even have aircraft to train with
Yes the US have simulators, so does
nearly every well trained airforce in the world.
I still believe its Pilot vs Pilot, if you were to put two drivers in those cars, they can easily lose out if they don't know how to use it, don't
know the track, weather conditions etc. USAF technological superiority, again I question that, any one who have half a brain know how to combat that
so called superiority.
You are wrong in this assertion, and not IMO, but the opinion of USAF pilots themselves. The Raptor enjoys such a large advantage due mostly to it's
complete LO design that current aircraft are simply overwhelmed even when severly outnumbering the Raptor.
Bull.
Yes the Raptor has the LO feature, congrats, but there are ways of reducing that advantage to zero if you use some support features and some smart
tactics,
Stealth is NOT a sodding sheild that will protect you from all the scarey stuff in the world, its a small advantage nothing more, it
can be countered if you use your head.
"I know first hand from flying the Raptor against other aircraft, and other aircraft against the Raptor, that the Raptor killing other aircraft is
like clubbing baby seals...It's just so easy." - Raptor Pilot
Nice. I remember a similar quote
"Those tommies won't see what kills them, we are faster and better trained than those shop keepers turned pilots"
That was a german pilot talking about his Me 109 against the RAF. Sounds fimilar American Mad Man Huh
- Phil
[edit on 30-9-2005 by gooseuk]
