Russia to launch new F/A-22 competetor

Originally posted by WestPoint23
You're not thinking dynamic enough; within visual range is sort of misleading as this envelope can be extend out to 10 nautical miles or more. Don't think of it as strictly physics and or a movie scene, real life is much more complex, unknown and interesting.

+ standard response [trimmed]

If the other guy has missiles, and the F-22 tries to get out of a furball it dies. Period.

No amount of links you post citing A, B or C are going to change that.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
And this is different from any other fighter? The point is how these current and or hypothetical fighters, in terms of capability, match up against the F-22 on paper and then on the battlefield. In any case it's reasonable to say that in the near term there won't be anything which matches or exceeds the Raptors capabilities. And if anyone insists otherwise I'll believe it when I see it and it's (proven) capabilities, until then it's an exercise in pointless speculation. The Raptor is here now and fully operational.

This is a thread about a to be launched Russian fighter.

How can they "launch" something with fully proven capabilities?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
IRST as a main suite of search and attack is a relatively new concept,

Its only around 30 years old.

Just because the US hasn't done it doesn't mean it hasn't been done.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
more limiting than radar,

Correct - but then it is passive.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The US military and aerospace community does not share the same enthusiasm in terms of IRST capability (and more important reliability) and functionally in an actual conflict.

So anyone else that does invest in it are automatically wrong? (just because the USAF have said nah?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
One, PAK-FA has yet to even fly, let alone demonstrate and test systems capabilities,

Again, this entire thread about an aircraft that does not exist yet. Its pretty hard to fly, test systems and demonstrate capabilities before launching the thing.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Furthermore, we also do not yet know the full capabilities of the F-22 in regards to this field.

Correct.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
All in all, I don't think a Raptor driver is sweating because he might face an IRST capable fighter; ask those OPFOR pilots however how they feel about going up against a Raptor.

An IRST capable VLO fighter - probably with better integration with offboard sensors than the F-22 (the Russians have had strong focus on combined arms as central to their entire military doctrine long before either you or me were born)

Originally posted by WestPoint23
This isn't Hollywood… That's not always the case anymore, when the F-22 is forced by virtue of the parameters to enter into a "dogfight" this happens.

Against a 4th gen fighter!

What do you expect to happen?

Again, the ranges of current short range A2A missiles are 20km+ The Mica's range is over 50.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
The IRST field of view while in scan/track is limiting when compared to radar, unless cued to a more specific section with other sensors it is a limited search and track system. That's without even discussing its other many limitations.

The OLS-27 IRST can scan a 120x75 degree field. [ausairpower]


In comparison to radar, yes it is limited. But it also isn't saying to everyone "shoot me".

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Assumptions and more assumption, no mention of specifics and or a likely tactical battlefield scenario/outcome.

WHAT?

Offboard sensors? Like a friendly SAM network? Yeah, big assumption.


Threat axis? Like they aren't gonna be attacking from behind your lines - another massive assumption


Of course I'm not going to delve into laying out a single scenario in its entirety, as that would be a complete waste of time.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
See above, when (if) this PAK-FA flies, demonstrates and tests its capabilities, we'll see.

For the third time - this entire thread is about a 'yet to be launched' aircraft - by definition its capabilities cannot be known or proven. Hence why I said I assume

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Also, the F-35 is VLO too, yet will not be as successful as the F-22 in air to air combat.

I have to chuckle when people dismiss the F-35's VLO capabilities and only (incorrectly) assume that's all it offers over existing fighters.

What, like alot of the technical partners that are looking at alternatives?

If the F-35 was so hot, why would they be doing this?


Apart from VLO and some nice MFDs with integration of systems, what exactly does it offer over alternatives?

[Other 4.5 gen aircraft offer 80-90% of the F-35's cockpit anyway]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Even claiming current generation fighters are "better" fighters than the F-35 will be

In some situations they will be.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
and that they will even stand a chance against the Raptor.

Who claimed that?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Yet a new foreign fighter (if it has any form of stealth) will supposedly beat not only the F-35 but the Raptor as well. Ah, logic…

When was the YF-22 designed?

In the 80's.

When was the F-22 redesigned

Early 90's.

When is the PAK-FA being designed?

Between 10 and 15 years later than the F-22's redesign.

And you don't think that there have been no technological advances in that time?

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Again you are not thinking broad enough; this is WWII or even Vietnam for example. Those tactics are archaic when you can

+standard response [clipped]

(Assuming PAK-FA is VLO)

The other guy has a VLO platform - you have to find him to be situationally aware.


The F-22 has to rely on someone else to do the finding for it, otherwise it broadcasts its location [don't even bother with that LPI pish].


Hence why I'm saying the PAK-FA may have an advantage if it has a decent passive sensor in the IRST - something that the F-22 was originally scheduled to have*, but it was cut for budgetary reasons.


*LM and the USAF thought it worthwhile till costs had to be chopped... hmmm.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
The F22 fights a lot differently than conventional aircraft, with regards to tactics. It's quite conceivable that a Raptor pilot would approach supercruising, to get more range for its missiles/element of surprise.

Approach WHAT?

How does the F-22 find the PAK-FA to approach it?



I wish some of you lot would stop and think for a moment before beating your patriotic chests and thumping out a response on the keyboard.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
I doubt seriously that an adversary is gonna get a lock on the Raptor at 20-30km, much less 80km.

A LW radar will detect an F-22 at 80 km, easy.

Locking on is another issue.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
I still think you're very wrong with regards to how effective an IRST would be without any cueing. It simply doesn't have a wide enough view to scan wide sector, without knowing where it's foe is coming from.

Google is your friend. Go forth and learn.

The OLS-30M, developed by UOMZ company has a vibration-proof receiver, micro-cryogenic system, improved service life and new software, with respect to the earlier OLS-27. Range is claimed to be 90km in pursuit and 40km head-on.

The old OLS-27 could scan 120x75 degrees. I don't have figures for the -30M

Originally posted by kilcoo316
The old OLS-27 could scan 120x75 degrees. I don't have figures for the -30M

Just did a quick search for stats on the OLS. Found a couple things. It's not the -30M, but the MiG-35's OLS is supposedly the top-of-the-line today, so I just decided to assume it was closest to what's coming next on PAK-FA.

MiG engineers have defined basic points of the optical locator system development:
- multispectrality. System should work both in visible and IR ranges
- integrity. TV and IR systems, laser ranging system should be united in one solid construction
- system should work on wide angles, up to 360 and identify shapes of aerial and ground targets

Viktor Sumerin, NII PP deputy general designer: “New OLS is much more effective. Two-three times only by range. Old OLS didn’t have TV channel, so it means no picture at all - no TV, no IR. That’s why some of the functions just was impossible to implement.”

MiG-35 OLS may see USAF stealth planes very nicely as well. Today it’s impossible to hide the plane from the complex of powerful optics with IR vision.

Viktor Shargorodsky, NII PP general designer: “Stealth technology today is mostly decreasing it’s visibility in radio bands. But for the optical bands, especially in IR ranges the main parameter is temperature. And you can do nothing about it. Engines have great flow of hot air which can be detected perfectly from the big range if we are behind the plane. If we are going face to face, so first of all we still see some part of this flow and second we can see the front edges of wings which meet air flow and become warm too.”

New OLS is intelligence system of technical vision to work in realtime of fast combat environment. In air combat complex allows:
- detect not-afterburning target on the 45km range and more;
- identify this target on 8-10km range;
- estimate aerial target range up to 15 km.

For the ground targets complex allows:
- tank effective detection range up to 15 km, aircraft carrier - 60-80 km;
- identify the tank type on the 8-10 km, aircraft carrier type - 40-60 km;
- estimate ground target range up to 20 km.

Source

I'm hoping that's enough information for you guys to play with .

Personally, I think the coolest part of the OLS is not that you can detect things of all sorts, but that they can get a good picture of the enemy on the MFD. Something many video gamers have had for years on the sims, but that fighter pilots haven't had at their disposal to this extent.

Originally posted by kilcoo316

Originally posted by BlueRaja
The F22 fights a lot differently than conventional aircraft, with regards to tactics. .

Approach WHAT?

A conventional aircraft Su-27 or the PAK-FA it doesn't matter. The fact that you had to make this a attack on if someone is patriotic or not about there country is pointless kilcoo. Your well informed just make this about bashing countries which this always seems to turn to. If Westy was commenting on the 22 vs PAK-FA (which by the way is looked down on on these forums by the mods) then he would or should of said PAK-FA because no one is sure how exactly PAK-FA will operate and anything else is speculation.

This is quickly turning into a point less vs thread that we already have at least 5 of regarding the F-22 and PAK-FA etc on ATS.

[edit on 7-2-2008 by Canada_EH]

[edit on 7-2-2008 by Canada_EH]

Originally posted by kilcoo316

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Also, the F-35 is VLO too, yet will not be as successful as the F-22 in air to air combat.

I have to chuckle when people dismiss the F-35's VLO capabilities and only (incorrectly) assume that's all it offers over existing fighters.

What, like alot of the technical partners that are looking at alternatives?

If the F-35 was so hot, why would they be doing this?

Umm how about not enjoying dealing with the military industrial complex that is the USA and how they treat their allies efforts. The program is being mismanaged and that is largely why air forces like the RAF, RAAF and CF are being turned off slowly.

I think stealth is massively overrated. Sure it is very nice but it only comes to its own in a situation where you have good awacs support.

In a blind(no awacs or lots of ecm situation) the advantage quikly deminishes.

and then we need to remember that dectection tech evolves aswell. What is stealthy now might be like a torch in closet over 10 years.

reply to post by kilcoo316


You are comparing a hypothetical aircraft with an operational aircraft, without knowing the true abilities of either aircraft. It has nothing to do with simple patriotic chest beating. My comparisons were against currently fielded/soon to be fielded threat aircraft, which the F-22 will have no problem seeing. You're also comparing aircraft from a country with about 20+ yrs of operational stealth aircraft vs. a country that has yet to field an operational stealth aircraft. What makes you so certain that the latter will leapfrog the technical abilities of the experienced user?
LW radar may be able to detect an F-22, but like you said, without X band locking up, no firing solutions are available. As for a passive attack using IRST and IR missiles, you're not gonna have a 30-80km range against a Raptor, so unless the missile launch is within the no escape zone, the missile launch warning on the Raptor, combined with supersonic speeds will give the pilot pretty good odds of staying out of the kinematic range of the missile.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by kilcoo316

 

You are comparing a hypothetical aircraft with an operational aircraft, without knowing the true abilities of either aircraft. It has nothing to do with simple patriotic chest beating. My comparisons were against currently fielded/soon to be fielded threat aircraft, which the F-22 will have no problem seeing. You're also comparing aircraft from a country with about 20+ yrs of operational stealth aircraft vs. a country that has yet to field an operational stealth aircraft. What makes you so certain that the latter will leapfrog the technical abilities of the experienced user?

Well, why the latercomers cannot surpass the formors?
If I am an American, I will take serious to the potential enemy not present one.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
LW radar may be able to detect an F-22, but like you said, without X band locking up, no firing solutions are available. As for a passive attack using IRST and IR missiles, you're not gonna have a 30-80km range against a Raptor, so unless the missile launch is within the no escape zone, the missile launch warning on the Raptor, combined with supersonic speeds will give the pilot pretty good odds of staying out of the kinematic range of the missile.

Maybe not. Some multi-headed missile can use both IR seaking guided head and A/P radar seaking. On the other hand, Raptor will have to face numrous enemies far beyond the quantity of F-22。 Think about J-10 will be built over 1200!

Originally posted by emile
Well, why the latercomers cannot surpass the formors?
If I am an American, I will take serious to the potential enemy not present one.

Maybe not. Some multi-headed missile can use both IR seaking guided head and A/P radar seaking. On the other hand, Raptor will have to face numrous enemies far beyond the quantity of F-22。 Think about J-10 will be built over 1200!"

Well obviously newer Russian planes will surpass older technology, but you're assuming that the American technology isn't also improving. It's similar to naval aviation. I'll bet American Carrier pilots/crews are far more proficient than Russian(or other recent operators of Carriers) at naval aviation. The latecomer has a significant learning curve to overcome, which gives those who have experience an advantage.

As for the dual seeker technology- how is the missile getting targeting info to get close enough to the Raptor, for it's IR seeker to come into play. It'd have to have radar from some source and guidance updates to get within range of it's IR seeker. It's not gonna fly dumb 80km, and then lock on with IR.

As for the J-10- it will always be at a disadvantage against F-22/F-35, as they will see the J-10 long before they're seen.

[edit on 11-2-2008 by BlueRaja]

[edit on 11-2-2008 by BlueRaja]

[edit on 11-2-2008 by BlueRaja]

(quote format)

[edit on 14-2-2008 by Jbird]

Could you tell me what's way was used on Raptor cause F-22 to be stealth?
This is, I think, all your theory based on.

[edit on 12-2-2008 by emile]

reply to post by emile


Can you rephrase your question, as I'm not sure exactly what it is that you're asking me?

The F22 will only dominate in a headon situation. Really how often does that happen. If you want a true comparison you need to look at all tactical situations.

What if the Awacs support has been shot down? Then the F22 won't know where the enemy aircraft in the air are. Then it cant point its most stealthy part to the enemy planes to make sure it is actually VLO. This results in that the F22 can be shot at from a highly increased range.

Imho that makes it clear that the F22 will perform optimally in a iraq like situation. However in modern air combat vs a opponent who has lots of jamming and will shoot down awacs planes then it becomes quite a different story.

reply to post by tomcat ha


Seriously how easy do people here think that a AWACs that easy to shoot down? Forget the 22 which I think your plane wrong in saying only any good head on with its VLO. A AWACs does what=Control airspace. So it knows whats going on in that airspace. If its not sure or the aircraft is threatened it in that airspace it will open up the range etc so as to not put the aircraft in danger. You talk about jamming. How much more jammin power would a AWACs be packin possibly in a war situation like your talking about. The F-22 also has the proclaimed gods eye view of the battle field so if you have one platform performing that role with the other 3 aircraft spread around the transmitting aircraft it would almost be like flies being attracted to a light and the being hit by the not seen hand.

Is the F-22 invincible? Most certainly not and a competitor (that is being designed and not yet operational) would be just that hopefully-a competitor.

reply to post by Canada_EH


Is that impossible to shoot AWAC down? If Raptor is a stealth fighter, is AWAC also stealth? Russia has some long range anti-AWAC missiles which can shoot from 400 km away from target. This is a magrginal visible range of AWAC in terms of the VR of radar tech for 5ms or less RCS target nowadays.

F-22 can do intercept the pantform of such LRAAM before they come close to AWAC, but if numbers are not on Raptor's side, situation will be different. USAF has absolute advantage to Iraq or Iran, but does US dare to try China or Ruusia even with F-22? The amount of jetfighter will be double or treble of all F-22s number that has ordered.

Pentagon are sleeping in dreem to think the F-22s which was designed almost two decades ago are still can go ahead of enemies nowadays, ignore d potential jetfighter that are building and the potential of present jetfighter that has already been refitted with some tech F-22 has no way to add.

Pak-fa will be better, do you know why? well because it is common sense that Russians would try to counter F-22 that is why Pak-Fa is made, otherwise , there is not sense in making the plane if it wouldn't be better than F-22, that's the whole idea about it.

[edit on 13-2-2008 by Odessit]

Yea in my point of view there is no way the Russians can all of a sudden create a fighter that can take down the raptor much less keep up with it. No matter how much their economy is doing good lol!

Anyone know what this one actually is.. i don't, just figured id throw it out there and see if any of you folks though it looked familiar. img340.imageshack.us...

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
Yea in my point of view there is no way the Russians can all of a sudden create a fighter that can take down the raptor much less keep up with it. No matter how much their economy is doing good lol!

I remember exactly the same being said about the teen series when we were all relieved to find out that the MiG 23 wasn't really all that good.

Then Flanker and Fulcrum scared us all to death.

the image linked to above is nothing to do with Pak Fa as the Russians have already ditched FSW. It is a very nice looking creation though, it looks part Flanker, part F-22 and part Su-47/S-37 (or whatever its called this week). I could see how it might fool a lot of people who wouldn't know any better.

Originally posted by Odessit
Pak-fa will be better, do you know why? well because it is common sense that Russians would try to counter F-22 that is why Pak-Fa is made, otherwise , there is not sense in making the plane if it wouldn't be better than F-22, that's the whole idea about it.

[edit on 13-2-2008 by Odessit]

You're using a flawed paradigm here. It's true that the Russians would want to meet or exceed the Raptor's capabilities when designing a new aircraft. Having said that, it remains to be seen how good the PAK-FA is in reality, once it becomes operational. I seriously doubt it will exceed the Raptor's avionics capabilities, even if it's raw performance is equivalent.

reply to post by emile


At this point emile the jet fighter you talk about hasn't been built its specs are speculation and the F-22 is flying and the pilots are becoming more practiced in its operation daily. Yes you have some point with strength in number etc but alot of that is just guess work in how it would play out. For me in the present and looking at the fact that the USAF and its fighter development never stands still technologically then at this point Russia is playing catch up to North America in that regard. Have they been in the lead before? YES. Could they Again? Yes. But it all remains to be seen.

We haven't heard any more news on development which makes sense if its being guarded like it should but leaks will happen and its my opinion that if it doesn't fly by the end of 2009 it will be the next program to run into cost overruns and get cut for not moving forward enough.