Originally posted by Tapeworm
but didn't I already read that these bombs were high tech explosives with sophisticated timing devices?

THere was a report that they were military grade bombs, but nothing about high tech nore sophisticated timers.

I don't buy the suicide bomber story

Why? Islamists often use suicide bombers.

justyc
now if you are a suicide bomber then i dont think you would care about resetting your timer if you could take some people out with you when your bomb exploded.

There's no reason to think that you have any idea what would be going thru a suicide bomber's mind, so this is pretty meaningless.

what needs to be known is if they bought return tickets to london or even a travelcard

That would be completely meaningless. If they did, it coudl be part of the cover, if they didn't it still doesn't prove that they were invovled. What shows that these guys were involved was their behaviour on the tapes. The public doesn't get to see that, becuase thats just the way it is. The police are reporting that they appeared suspicious, maybe it was racial profiling, maybe they were aggregating and split up suddenly, maybe they were just acting unfriendly or were too concerned with their bags. Its pointless to speculate, obviously a suicide bomber can act suspiciously, obviously they can bring their id's with them, and obviously they could've left their bomb making materials in their houses.

kenshiro2012
how do you go from being on the underground to having your flat raided to identify incriminating materials?

APparently the big break was that they were reported missing no? Is leeds a place where one might expect islamist terrorists to come from in england? I mean, if there's a gang shoot-out in NYC, i wouldn't expect the police to follow-up on tips involving people from the Hamptons before the leads on people from Harlem. Is leeds a place that the police anticipate problems from? So a report about a missing muslim from leeds who went to london would set off red flags no?

snoopdopey
What if it was some kind of jewellery, or his driving licence if he had one?

Or one of those 'dog tags' with your name on it that are popular these days.THere's any number of things that cna identify a person quickly.

justyc
Carrying anything that identifies you is not minimising the risk its doubling it..

I doubt that a muslim who is stopped by the police and can't turn up any identification is going to be allowed to go on his merry way. The risk they want to minimize is risk to the mission, it doesn't matter if afterwards their ids are around. They know that there are cameras, they know that once they are gone long enough to be missing that their families are going to be checked, and they know it won't be too long before its revealed that they had no business on those trains in particular. They didn't attempt to cover-up their involvement, hell, the organization claimed responsibility for it. The concern was to keep it a secret until after the attack. THere's no need for a small relatively independant cell to keep anonymous. Hell, they problably wanted people to know that they did it, so that other jihadists could remember their names.

And whos to say the id isnt fake...

Heck, who says that the whole thing just never happened, and that there are no disgruntled muslims who are marginalized and unassimiliated in europe, and that there's no such thing as an underground weapons market. Heck, even that whole 'IRA' thing was made up by the protestants, there never were any 'bombings', yeah, the only people capable of this is the british government itself, they organized the whole thing, its just silly to think that any of the hundreds of anti-western and militant muslims in england actually did what they've been saying they'll do

pakistan is in asia

If a person said pakistan was part of the middle east they'd hardly be entirely wrong. THere's no 'definition' of whats in the middle east anyway. Heck the middle east is in asia.

It would be "Pakistani" not "Paki

"Paki" is also meaningless. Pakistan is not the 'land of the paks' like uzbekistan is the land of the uzbeks. THere are no paks. PAK is an acronym for the three ethnicitie s that make up the country.

But in Snoopdopey's defense, he said "MIddle Eastern". That was derided as being inaccaurate, and he siad 'I did'n want to say 'pakis' "

It's political correctness gone wrong, there's nothing offensive about it

If its generally used to disparage, then it becomes dispraging. Obviously you didn't use it in that way. I think its reactionary how people are jumping all over you. All you seemed to mean was that the police aren't going to be looking for WASPS as the culprit, and when they get word about posssible leads invovling middle eastern muslims, that those are the one's they are going to follow up on. And as far as 'paki' being inappropriate, since you are from scotland,its probably entirely possible that, in your experience, its not necessarily inappropriate to use it, since there isn't much experience with the term. Pakistani is probably the best word to use tho.

sooo?
the family members may or maynot be part of the cell does not disuade from the fact that if the family members had knowledge beforehand whic from the way this investigation seems to have progressed, then the family members should be arrested. they are as cupable as the actual bombers.
If the police are leaving the family members alone in the hopes that they (the family) would eventually lead them to other cell members then i would question the intelligence of both the police in hoping that this would happen. I would also question the intelligence of any cell members that would have anything at all to do with any of the family members.
SOP (Standard Opreating Procedures) of a "cell" would be that members would only be aware of only a very limited number of other members and would not even be aware of other cells that may or may not be in existance.

Or maybe the fact they didn't know?

To be honest, my parents had no idea what I was getting up to while I lived in their house (thank the Lord) and it is easy enough to keep a "secret". Looked door, small safe, etc. as well as a lot of people from the U.K. and yes even as far north as Leeds travelling to London fairly often.

It could easily be nothing out of the ordinary and we should let the Police do their job, before we judge the family and already say they are guilty. After all, they will have interviwed them and they will have the best idea of it. Also if they were "in on it" why would they have phoned them? Would they have not done better to clear out the house, destroy any evidence, etc?

Nygdan,

APparently the big break was that they were reported missing no? Is leeds a place where one might expect islamist terrorists to come from in england? I mean, if there's a gang shoot-out in NYC, i wouldn't expect the police to follow-up on tips involving people from the Hamptons before the leads on people from Harlem. Is leeds a place that the police anticipate problems from? So a report about a missing muslim from leeds who went to london would set off red flags no?

So, what you are saying is that the big break came from just their names being of the middle eastern that would automatically "flag" them as being persons of interests? Good case of racial profiling here then.
Is that sort of what happend to Cat Stevens a few months back?
As for targeting those of middle eastern descent, the police were indicating that there were earmarks of Al Queda but nothing solid. Remember, this went from suicide bombers, to remote detonation, back to suicide bombers.

By what you have said, I sincerely feel for any person who has a middle eastern sounding name if they are living in England.

Odium,
Then as I posted in response to Nygdan,
The police were just alerted by the names of the missing and not from information that may or may not have been given to the police by the family. The police then either would have to have previously identified these guys as being british muslim extremeists in order for the police to react as fast as they have.

Wasn't so nice for them here in the U.S. either--right after the 9/11 acts.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Odium,
Then as I posted in response to Nygdan,
The police were just alerted by the names of the missing and not from information that may or may not have been given to the police by the family. The police then either would have to have previously identified these guys as being british muslim extremeists in order for the police to react as fast as they have.

Or the fact they had 3 people from the same area, taking a trip to London together and being reported missing? If all three were reported missing and had to leave fairly early (I'm talking like 6:30ish) to get to London by then from Leeds, it is likely the Police would have put 2+2 together. Did a bit of research onto these people and then thought it was their best lead and identified them as suspects, did the raid and there we go.

True, but if the police have identified these suspects just because they have middle eastern backrounds / names then that means that there is a standing racial profiling going on since they (the police) had no solid evidence prior to raiding the houses that these guys were anything but ordinary citizens.

Amazing how many people know that the US and Britain have stomped the rest of the world for centuries, yet cannot accept that there might be retaliation. I host a radio show and somehow ended up on a mailing list for a non-moderate Islamic group, here's a snip from an article I received yesterday. The following comments were used to justify the bombings in London. Hello, wake up call!

=====
Everyone takes it for granted that the civilians in the UK are innocent, but are they really disconnected from the UK foreign policy? Especially, as the civilians have voted for the Labour Party and therefore endorsed the war in Iraq, endorsed the killing of innocent civilians in Iraq? Surely, if innocent Iraqis as a whole could be punished for its dictator, then this should apply even more to a democracy where the people’s voice dictates policy and manifesto. Hence, the Labour government, the Labour voters and the silent spectators are clearly guilty in the major state-terrorism, and genocide against Iraq.

Justyc - I could use sassenachs, but it's a hell of a long way for a short cut, the trick was reducing the length of the word not increasing it Only jk mate.

Nygdan, thank you for your defense.

In response to what i was saying, i agree that it's just good detective work that made them find the suspects so quickly, while most of us make comments on the theories of how they did it, lets remember that some of these guys will have been doing this work for over 30 years. Many of whom have delt with investigations into the IRA bombings... They have their ways.

The 4 bombers have been picked up twice on cameras at Luton station and at King Cross, then all 4 are believed to have died at each explosion. One was reported missing, so one of the bombers have told his family that he is going to London. The bombers really didnt cover their tracks if you think about it.

anila, sorry to inform you but whoever sent that in is infact an idiot.

The attack did not target labour supporters nor did it target heavy labour areas. Only about 33% of the population voted for Blair, so yet again they are very simple to say the majority did and it displays that persons lack of understanding in reguards to U.K. Politics.

As for racial profiling?

Annoyingly, it happens. During the I.R.A. and their bombs, Irish people got it hard, same will go on for a while till this cycle ends. Jewish, Christian, Muslim, I guess after Al C.I.Ada, it'll be a new Jewish extremists turn? :|

Odium,
simple cultural normalities lead people of the same race / culture to live in groups. My wife happens to be korean, guess what, half of my neighbors are also korean.
What would lead an investigator to believe that just because 3 people from the same area heading to London would be involved with the bombing? For all the police have to go on with the information that has been released so far there is nothing to specifically identify these guys as suspects other than their names then the police go 1 + 1 (hopefully) = 2.
I work with 4 people of middle eastern descent, heck all three are still citizens of their respective countries. They live withing 1 mile of each other about 15 miles from work so they are in another city. By the rational that is being presented, if there was bombing in the city where we work, these guys would automatically become suspects.
Don't you just love it?

Everyone takes it for granted that the civilians in the UK are innocent, but are they really disconnected from the UK foreign policy? Especially, as the civilians have voted for the Labour Party and therefore endorsed the war in Iraq, endorsed the killing of innocent civilians in Iraq? Surely, if innocent Iraqis as a whole could be punished for its dictator, then this should apply even more to a democracy where the people’s voice dictates policy and manifesto. Hence, the Labour government, the Labour voters and the silent spectators are clearly guilty in the major state-terrorism, and genocide against Iraq.

Anila, the majority of the British public were against the war in Iraq, the votes only swinged the other way after the troops went in. For support of the troops, not the political agenda.

I don't see how people going about their business ( who may have voted against ) should be blown to bits.

You may say, many innocents have been killed in Iraq, which is agree with. But if retaliation is required, why not attack British military targets in the UK? Woulnd't that be more appropriate? Or the Labour party HQ

I don't see how blowing a bomb in the middle of a train, where there are people of ALL religious backgrounds can be justified.

It's a sick and twisted sense of war.

[edit on 12-7-2005 by Snoopdopey]

Originally posted by infinite
The 4 bombers have been picked up twice on cameras at Luton station and at King Cross, then all 4 are believed to have died at each explosion. (Edited for length)

So they were on 2 separate cctv cameras, how does this lead the police to suspect them? Are you saying that there is no one else that may have traveled from Luton through King's Cross?

Good defence Nygdan, , nice to see someone is thinking

What is missing here is putting the events in the context of the entire post 9/11 situation.

I suspect that the police etc have tons of background information on individuals whom they would consider a risk. That they missed this cell does not mean they were unaware of the people, or that they didn't have people in place to report on unusual things happening, like 3 men going to London and never returning.

What we see here as suprising speed, is probably a mining of existing information and following up informants. Now if this was the case they would hardly come out and say it.

Why give potential terrorists any more information than hey have to, why warn them about the reach of the British secutirty into their communites.

I wonder where the line between conspiracy theorists and politically correct muslim extremist apologists is drawn. Are we just trying to defend the indefensable to make some obscure and obtuse political statement, ie: that the government killed its own citizens? Come on, the KISS rule should apply here.

Also although "racial profiling" is a naughty word (slap wrist) it is relevent, and true, just how many Anglo saxons were involved in the explosions?

Lets call a spade a spade, muslims terrorists murdered innocent people, and they probably came from a middle eastern country, such as pakistan, Iraq, Syria or saudi Arabia, either that or are first generation immigrants from that country.

There that wasn't so hard to say was it

All the rest is spitting straws and semantics.

[edit on 12-7-2005 by Netchicken]

kenshiro2012 i know what your getting at, but i don't think it is wrong what the police did.

Over the past few years, these random bombings have been undertaken by islamic extremists, are you saying that if the police find out about a few missing people from the same area, roughly about the time of the attack, all with islamic names that they are unfairly jumping to conclusions?

If you were a detective, say in, i don't know, lets say China, and there had been a number of bombings lately linked to UK human rights groups, that if you found out about a bunch of guys with surnames like Smith, Jones and Black as oppossed to Ling, Lai and Wong ( not stereotyping ) were in the area at the same time, that you wouldn't follow it up?

Yes, if there was some "noise" prior to of an attack occuring.
According to all reports, there were no prior information that there was going to be an attack on London.
For all the police knew, it could have been the IRA who had done it. Remember, there is an on-going never ending conflict there.
If, I was a member of the London investigative team, A bombing occuring in England, I would first think and investigate to see if the IRA was involved before going on to "hey, we have 3 (4) middle eastern men on film (who have died) who happened to have traveled from Lunton to London together. They MUST be the ones!

See what I mean?
Edited to add
Paperclip just brought up another very good point on another thread.
Muslim is a religion not a race. A Muslim as well as a muslim extremeist, can very well be someone not of the middle east, they can be of any race. So how do the police identify these suspects and then designate them as being muslim? Did they have signs or identification on them saying " I am a Muslim"?


[edit on 12-7-2005 by kenshiro2012]

Odium and Snoopdopey,

I was not passing judgement on the British people. What I am trying to show you is that one side sees apples and the other side sees oranges. I prefer cherries!

I would like to post a link to the article I was sent, but I don't see one. It is much longer than the snip I provided. My hope is to provide some insight into the mindset of real people who would actually justify the attacks. I would never justify or condone attacking and killing innocents, but I would like to understand why others might do so.

I have friends who actually think Bush and Blair did this. Now if time proves them correct, let EVIDENCE be the condemnation, not suspicion or opinion.

I don't know who did the bombings, but based on the mood of a large number on non-moderate Islamics who are fed up with people like you and me turning a blind eye to the plunder of their peoples, it wouldn't surprise me in the least to find this to be just what it appears, an attack by extremists.

If we are going to understand what we are up against, we need to listen to what these people have to say.

I'm sure the police would have looked into it being the IRA as well.

But given the current climate, i think if there were 4 muslim men reported missing, who turned out to be dead, in those locations ( think of the odds ) and there was cctv footage of them leaving a car with big bags for a week in london, and since then no one has moved the car, it would be pretty daft for the police not to follow it up.

[Edit] Sorry, to avoid you continuing the difference, not muslim men, but men with names which muslims commonly use.

[edit on 12-7-2005 by Snoopdopey]