NEWS: Terror Arrests Follow After Bus Bomber is Identified.

Hey, how come there's no button for this entry for a WATS vote?

Very interesting insight.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by TPL
but it just seems so stupid of them to carry I.D.

Why? By doing so they are able to cause even more panic.

clearmind
they can't stop it from happening but they, for some reason, can id the bomber soon AFTER the blasts

Lets think about this for a moment. You can't stop a couple of guys from making and going off on a suicide mission. But you can find out who they are once you have the parts. Why is this rather simple and obvious fact so paranoia inspiring? The militants want to let the public know that they did it. They announced that they did it, they don't care if one cell gets found out after its mission was accomplished. In doing this, with british-by-birth muslims, the entire muslim community is stigmatized, and futher pushed into marginalism, and become more likely to aid in future attacks, in england or iraq or anywhere.

The article in question came in from The Party for Islamic Renewal and was written by Yamin Zakaria. I just found a link.

www.americandaily.com...

It should be noted that this person appears to me to be calling for an understanding of the real issues. I selected a paragraph out of context with the specific intention of trying to get across that there are really people out there who would feel the attacks were righteously committed.

So what are we going to do about this very serious problem? I think the world would do far better with the British people leading the way here rather than the Americans because they at least figured out how to talk with the IRA, despite many years of bitter conflict. That experience could be very helpful. The IRA had real issues, the conflict would not have ended if those issues had not been addressed.

Snoopdopey
So true, but since there were no prior information that there was going to be an attack in London by any muslim extremist, I find it hard to believe that it was so easy for them to identify these guys.
What is not to say that they were planing to go on a holiday or were going to be staying overnight in London? Just because they were carrying bags for a week or so, should not automatically id them as being the culprits.
As for them being reported missing..... they did die in the bombings so yes, their families would report them missing.

I am of two minds on how this investigation has been done.
1) the police had some kind of prior knowledge that would lead them to suspect these guys (remember again no prior "noise" of an attack)
2) these guys maybe scapegoats. in more ways than one.

I am leaning toward prior knowledge of some sort.

Doesn't fit PIRA/INLA/'Irish' MO.

They normally give warnings and MI5/6 usually have an idea something's going on. Would imagine Islamic was their first thought, Irish second, then others.

Plus they had the guy who noticed the bus bomber. They would have interviewed him on Thursday - the guy was on the news!

All in all 4 bombs = 4 asians (male youths) at KX was a good place to start looking.

There you go, using facts and experience to shoot down a perfectly wacky conspiracy theory..shame on you!

Originally posted by Astronomer68

Originally posted by andy1972

COINCIDENCE...just like MOHAMMED ATTAS passport surviving a 2000 degree inferno nearly intact!!!!!

I'm not sure where this comment came from, or why, but I can tell you from personal military experience with thermite (which gets hotter than that) that it only takes a small layer of carbonized material (such as paper or cloth) to create an insulator. Several sheets of paper will survive almost totally untouched behind, or between, such a layer(s).

Daily Mirror is stating that one of the "suicide" bombers was just 19 and another was 22.

Skynews was stating that police sources have confirmed the bombers were suicide bombers.

BUT, i will wait until the morning papers to doubel check

CTID56092
The IRA does nto always give prior notice especially for one of their bigger operations.

On ITN now the Bus Bomber (Shahzad Tanwir- sp?-) visited Afghanistan / Pakistan last year for 6 months.

[edit on 12/7/05 by CTID56092]

[edit on 12/7/05 by CTID56092]

yah, and when it comes to manufacture, especially the primaries,is very very dangerous. As in, stir too fast, let it cool to quick...kaboom.

Sure you can make a lot of the specialty explosives, but the components are hard to come by, easily traced, and not mcuh legitimate reason to have them. Typically you have to have one type of explosive and "refine" it to the other. Which still leaves the question, where'd the original come from?

I know I can't buy half the stuff I want, here in the States...in Britain, where private citizens are kept from ammunition, or even airsoft rifles, it's gotta be much harder, unless they're being smuggled in, or stolen locally.

Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by subz
Odium, I remember the police saying that it was high explosives that was used in the attacks. And that it wasnt stuff you could make at home.

High Explosives
These are normally employed in mining, demolitions and military warheads. They undergo detonation at rates of 1,000 to 8,500 meters per second. High explosives are conventionally subdivided into two classes and differentiated by sensitivity:

Original or Primary. These are extremely sensitive to shock, friction, and heat. They will burn rapidly or detonate if ignited.
Secondary or Base. These are relatively insensitive to shock, friction, and heat. They may burn when ignited in small, unconfined quantities; detonation occurs otherwise. These are sometimes added to a primary in a small amount in a blasting cap to increase the cap's power.
Some definitions add a third category:

Tertiary, also called blasting agents. These are so insensitive to shock that they cannot be detonated by practical quantities of primary explosive, and instead require an intermediate explosive booster of secondary explosive. Some examples would be T.N.T.(trinitrotoluene), RDX, or HMX. These can usually fit into the Secondary group.
Note that some explosive materials can fall into no specific category, according to how they are initiated. For example, nitrocellulose deflagrates if ignited, but detonates if initiated by a strong detonator.

en.wikipedia.org...

Just trust me, I'm not going to explain nor post links which do, but any of those high-explosives lister there, can be made if you know what to buy. A friend of mine whose living is knowing such things sat down and explained it to me about 3 or so years ago.

OMG!

Someone is speaking out about it, his identity is hidden for a reason (of course)

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
CTID56092
The IRA does nto always give prior notice especially for one of their bigger operations.

Have done to date! Well-recognised system of codewords to authenticate irish republican groups. Even at Omagh a warning was given - possibly with evil intent.

No-one's first thought was Irish - sure when they looked at the CCTV they were looking for anything suspicious and 4 Asian youths at KX turned up.

[edit on 12/7/05 by CTID56092]

here's a scary thought: it's not racial profiling, but an investigative technique based on research and previous experience. If it allowed successful identification within days of a fatal attack, and has done so in the past, then only a fool would discontinue use of it.

Racial profiling became a buzzword and is supposed to mean when people are actually arrested and detained because of background or color, while people look for something they did wrong. It is not using racial information to narrow down suspects *after* an incident has occurred.

Should we ignore such things in police reports then? If a "hispanic male" or "caucasian female" is part of the description given by a witness to a crime, should we just toss it out? Ignore the racial descriptor. And to be fair, we'd better get rid of "gender bias" too. Heaven forbid if the description contains the word "fat" or "old" or something non-flattering that hurts the criminal's feelings..

If the cops aren't routinely rounding up Muslims day in and day out, there's no true "racial profiling" going on.

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
True, but if the police have identified these suspects just because they have middle eastern backrounds / names then that means that there is a standing racial profiling going on since they (the police) had no solid evidence prior to raiding the houses that these guys were anything but ordinary citizens.

My own opinion would be that the men in question would have been lured to a place in London and murdered
Their identity would then have been placed on trains and a bus which were open to overnight interference

[edit on 12-7-2005 by dh]

[edit on 12-7-2005 by dh]

Right now, you've just used the Internet. A tool developed originally through DARPA grants for the US Military. Money spent on registration of websites you use goes thru ICANN and servers in America.

You're supporting America, voting with your money. Guess you're not innocent either...so you have no problem with being a victim of sectarian violence?

What about the children of someone who "voted Labour"?

I am so sure the devices were discriminate, and only hit those "responsible" for the *hundreds of years* of poisoned Islam violence.

The justifications lf so-called "moderate" groups make me ill. Tortured logic and justification of terrorism is just mild mannered hate speech. Not all hatred and racism is loud and ranting. There are some very calm and logica Nazis. I don't buy their crap either.

Originally posted by anila
Amazing how many people know that the US and Britain have stomped the rest of the world for centuries, yet cannot accept that there might be retaliation. I host a radio show and somehow ended up on a mailing list for a non-moderate Islamic group, here's a snip from an article I received yesterday. The following comments were used to justify the bombings in London. Hello, wake up call!

=====
Everyone takes it for granted that the civilians in the UK are innocent, but are they really disconnected from the UK foreign policy? Especially, as the civilians have voted for the Labour Party and therefore endorsed the war in Iraq, endorsed the killing of innocent civilians in Iraq? Surely, if innocent Iraqis as a whole could be punished for its dictator, then this should apply even more to a democracy where the people’s voice dictates policy and manifesto. Hence, the Labour government, the Labour voters and the silent spectators are clearly guilty in the major state-terrorism, and genocide against Iraq.

Racial Profiling is not an issue (as far as I'm aware) in the UK.

Race has been on the census for years and it isn't an issue. (You'll know the Jedi story!).

To date race relations in the UK have been reasonably good. Overall we're a far more integrated, less race-obsessed bunch than our American cousins.

Don't confuse the UK with the USA we work very differently

[edit on 12/7/05 by CTID56092]

[edit on 12/7/05 by CTID56092]

Originally posted by CTID56092
Their presence at Luton & their car was reported by a member of the public - 4 asian guys with rucksacs. Fairly simple to track them via CCTV that morning after that.

Interesting that you, as with a few others, mention Luton.
I did a little research, and ran across this 2001 The Times article that may prove interesting: "Rage of Luton Muslims who want to join Taleban"

"Afzal Munir, 25, a newly married business graduate and one of two men from the Bedfordshire town killed in a US rocket attack on Kabul, worshipped at a one-room radical mosque situated in the Call To Islam Bookshop, above an insurance shop in the Dunstable Road. Within a minute of arriving outside the mosque, this Times reporter and cameraman were set upon by a Muslim man, who had rushed, enraged, from a halal butcher shop. 'You insult Islam, you corrupt Islam!' he screamed, smashing the camera to the ground and grabbing another photographer by the throat. 'You don’t understand how angry we Muslims are!' Five other Muslim men joined him, surrounding us, as he demanded the other camera. Their sense of fury was frightening. Five hundred yards away, outside Luton’s Central Mosque, the third largest in the country, Mohammed Abdullah, a 22-year-old accountant, articulated this rage. His words should serve as a warning to Geoff Hoon, the Defence Secretary, who yesterday said British men joining the Taleban would either die in Afghanistan or face prosecution if they returned here. 'They want to die there,' Mr Abdullah said. 'These are well-educated people. They have families. I knew Afzal. He loved his wife. But you must understand: all Muslims in Britain view supporting the jihad (holy war) as a religious duty. All of us are ready to sacrifice our lives for our beliefs. I am jealous of Afzal. He has reached paradise.'"

I also ran across this article that is related to this topic:
EXPLOSIVES FOUND IN CAR





seekerof

I also ran across this article that is related to this topic:
EXPLOSIVES FOUND IN CAR

seekerof

Explosives is better than another rerun of Korans or Islamic texts

I know I can't buy half the stuff I want, here in the States...in Britain, where private citizens are kept from ammunition, or even airsoft rifles, it's gotta be much harder, unless they're being smuggled in, or stolen locally.

Quote Phugedaboudet

____________________________________________________________

Sorry to veer off topic but that's Rubbish!

You can have air rifles no probs. We have a right to shotguns unless they can prove good reason; 235,000 new shotgun certs last year!

With FAC & Police check you can have any calibre up to .50 (for now!) & beyond and semi auto for 22 rimfire only, 'straight pull' version of all semi-auto rifles (but 'Winchester' lever actions are OK in any calibre) providing you are a good character, have a reason for each gun and somewhere to shoot it.

Loads of legally-held rifles (and quite a few pistols) in UK.

Phugedaboudet,

Should we ignore such things in police reports then? If a "hispanic male" or "caucasian female" is part of the description given by a witness to a crime, should we just toss it out? Ignore the racial descriptor. And to be fair, we'd better get rid of "gender bias" too. Heaven forbid if the description contains the word "fat" or "old" or something non-flattering that hurts the criminal's feelings..

What police report? If there is one then I would agree. BUT this is directly negates the first reports on Thursday and Friday that all of the "watch list" poeple were accounted for and were not participants. If there is no prior record then this would indeed be racial profiling.
If not profiling then it could be a case of follow the leader (read scapegoat).

If as CTID56092 reports that the bus bomber was in Afghanistan in the last 6 months then he may well have been on the watch list but again that would contradict earlier reports.

I am not saying that the investigation is wrong. What I am saying is that we are not getting the whole story and that there had to have been information that the investigators had in order to lead them so directly to these guys.
Basically I am playing the devil's advocate.

Originally posted by Phugedaboudet
You're supporting America, voting with your money. Guess you're not innocent either...so you have no problem with being a victim of sectarian violence?

Don't shoot the messenger!

I have bit of a gripe with some who presume Bush and Blair are behind the attacks without a shred of real proof. Perhaps I should have pulled a quote so that readers would realize I'm not lashing out at people who cannot control how their government behaves, just taking a reality check that there is real danger afoot. Sorry, new here, live and learn.

I have a mailbox full of articles from people who are convinced the whole thing is a setup. I'm not happy with the US government and I don't like being held responsible for their actions, so like many others I do what I can to speak my mind, but blanket condemnation without proof is childish.

Btw, I'm Canadian. The American people I've met have been cool enough for the most part, but theirs has been a country of occupation since JFK. A sham of a democracy at best.