Ordo Templii Orientis: Who the heck are these guys??

Quote: "Reading this story it may have come across that I was proud of my accomplishment. In truth, it probably hurt me most of all. I'd betrayed my closest college friends, and scarred them for life whenever it came to believing in anything at that point. They had believed, and their faith in Chynthliss and Dae'enneth and myself had been no less than that of a hard core Christian in the midst of a Pentecostal Church. And I'd not only crushed that faith, made a complete mockery of it, but had used them, like tools, for petty revenge."

Hmm.. So you are a Skeptic because YOU were the one that was full of Crap while pointing your finger at the Perceived "Phoniness" of others... Interesting!

Has it occurred to you that perhaps “Diana” was being Genuine & that you were the one taking advantage of her?

Perhaps you did perform some Magick without Realizing it! Psychology is an actual Factor in it BTW! Just the act of “Believing” in anything (even if it is just crap that you made up) can actually cause certain Phenomena to occur! Your Motive to "Spitefully Mock for Revenge" was Negative - so perhaps it was an act of
"Black Magick"! Be careful my friend because you might just end up Reaping what you Sow!

Question - Do you enjoy being a "Skeptic" more that you did being a so-called "Neo-Pagan"! I think that if you ever ran into an ACTUAL Witch with any sort of Power you might just Pee in your Pants & run Home crying to Mommy!

[edit on 21-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

93

Thanks HeirX for the explanation, I believe I understand where you’re coming from. Looks I have another book on my very long list.

Oh boy! It seems to be "beat up on Libra" week.
That's cool. I can roll with it.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Hmm.. So you are a Skeptic because YOU were the one that was full of Crap while pointing your finger at the Perceived "Phoniness" of others... Interesting!

Yes. Exactly. More accurately, I am a skeptic because I saw that others are so easily manipulated to fervantly believe what they want to, that the same could happen in any situation. Have you ever seen the movie "The Wave"? That's another fine example of the same thing, and is based on a true story.

It was a psychological experiment. It worked. And as a result, it jaded me.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Has it occurred to you that perhaps “Diana” was being Genuine & that you were the one taking advantage of her?

Nope. I got to know her pretty well. She was a professional BS artist, diva, and drama queen all rolled into one. I do not presume to tell you about people who've been in your life that you've never met, and I'll thank you not to do the same for me.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Perhaps you did perform some Magick without Realizing it! Psychology is an actual Factor in it BTW! Just the act of “Believing” in anything (even if it is just crap that you made up) can actually cause certain Phenomena to occur! Your Motive to "Spitefully Mock for Revenge" was Negative - so perhaps it was an act of "Black Magick"! Be careful my friend because you might just end up Reaping what you Sow!

Thank you for that very educational lecture. I'm sure that I'm still on less than time number 1000 for telling myself the exact same thing, and wondering awake at night, at the long term consequences of my actions. But it's always good to hear it again.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Question - Do you enjoy being a "Skeptic" more that you did being a so-called "Neo-Pagan"!

Do I enjoy it more? No. I'll admit, it was fun.

But then again, believing in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and Jesus was fun too. However, there comes a time when some people grow up, and stop believing based on blind faith in what they are told to believe by others.

However, do I feel more confident in my reality, and in my beliefs by being a skeptic? Do I feel like I get more satisfaction when I finally have convicing evidence of something? Do I get more of a thrill out of genuinely supernatural experiences? YES, to all of the above.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
I think that if you ever ran into an ACTUAL Witch with any sort of Power you might just Pee in your Pants & run Home crying to Mommy!

You know, I debated on whether or not to respond to this comment for a while.
Then I debated as to how I would respond. Would I be as incorrect, presumtuous, condescending, and insulting as yourself? Would I make such a broad and sweeping assumption about your own experiences and reaction?

What I finally arrived at was this:

You have no idea who I am. You don't know me, you don't know the people I've known in my life, you don't know my family history. In fact, you don't know anything about me other than what I have chosen to tell you, and perhaps what you are able to find on the few footprints I leave behind on this vast virtual world of 1's and 0's.

So, in conclusion, your statement is in ignorance, your manner is rude, and you presumtions smack of arrogance. You should spend less time attacking others, and focus more on correcting those unpleasant traits about yourself. I hope that isn't considered a harsh remark, as it sounds like your self esteem may be suffering as well. Please consider it to be constructive criticism.

Ya wooda thunk I posted this in the political bully pit by the way you guys/girls are swiping at eachother. All I wanted was to find out more about the O.T.O., and frankly, I've found out a TON.

THANK YOU!! ALL OF YOU!!

Please continue on this thread...the more I learn, the merrier I'll become...BUT...please turn down the flames, okay?

[edit on 21-6-2005 by Toelint]

I am sorry if you found that last comment Rude - Libra. I couldn't help myself!

It is Interesting - you mentioned that group that College group that you were a part - P.S.A. was it? Question have you ever ran into anyone that actually identified themselves as being in the "O.T.O"? Or was it just a bunch of bored kids in Texas pretending to be a part of the "O.T.O" like you said? Why would you come to a conclusion of the actual O.T.O if these kids were just pulling your chain?

Have you ever considered that "Magick" could be a form of Manipulation in itself?

[edit on 21-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

The holy wars between the OTO and Wiccans were going on in Los Angeles in the early 90's too, maybe even before '94.

One wiccan group kicked out all of their OTO members, and said, thou shalt have no other religion besides our group. However, their teachings are much of the same stuff as much of OTO, i.e. middle pillar al a Isreal Regardie and such. I was of the opinion that there is probably no relation between wicca as taught today and the religion of the pre-Christian peoples of Europe, except that some of the same holidays are celibrated, albeit differently.

This kind of immature behavior was largely among people over the age of 30 too.

LA/OC is bigger too, with something like 4 OTO lodges, and who knows how many pagan groups. I worked at a New Age/Occult bookstore then, so I was in the middle of all this crap, and knew just about everyone. I too am really disenchanted with all things occult and am really glad to be away from all the drama.

Seems like the Ultimate 'religious' film, The Life of Brian, in truth a comedy dramatisation of Wilhelm Reich's rant "The Murder of Christ", applies to the secret society and gnostic crowd too
What a surprise - a reiteration of the central contradictions in all belief systems

Originally posted by HeirX
........
For all who care, the OTO has been one of the most enriching experiences of my life and I don't have one bad thing to say about it. As I've grown older Masonry has become attractive and I am finding it too to be a great organization. I'm giving a lecture to my local lodge in two weeks about the Holy Sts. John. ..........

Hier X it sounds as though you joined the OTO before you joined the Masons is that correct?

Exactly why is it said, "The Holy Sts. Jhon"? Sts. being plural and John being singular. I Rembember wondering if my coach was getting that wrong when he said it in the Blue Lodge catechism. I said it like that but it didn't seem right.

I don't know if the OTO would be right for me but I am atleast trying to read all the suggested reading on the Grandlodge OTO site. I just ordered Konzx Om Pax by Aliester Crowley for a Fathers day present. Luckily a lot of the writngs are free on the web. Konx Om Pax is quite expensive. I hope its worth the money.

Originally posted by TgSoe
Hier X it sounds as though you joined the OTO before you joined the Masons is that correct?

Exactly why is it said, "The Holy Sts. Jhon"? Sts. being plural and John being singular. I Rembember wondering if my coach was getting that wrong when he said it in the Blue Lodge catechism. I said it like that but it didn't seem right.

I don't know if the OTO would be right for me but I am atleast trying to read all the suggested reading on the Grandlodge OTO site. I just ordered Konzx Om Pax by Aliester Crowley for a Fathers day present. Luckily a lot of the writngs are free on the web. Konx Om Pax is quite expensive. I hope its worth the money.

93 TG

I've had a couple but I think grammer-wise, St.s John is correct. You wouldn't say, Brother Karamozov's. Two saints, both named John.
At the same time, the question itself does spur one to consideration. Is the matter particular to the Baptist and Evangelist or is there something in the name John itself? Is there a relation to Jah? Jonah? ....and the many other Johns? Have you read Burn's version of John Barleycorn?

Yes, I joined the OTO long before I became a Mason.

The OTO isn't right for everyone. Perhaps it would be good for you perhaps not. The OTO isn't the be-all end-all but serves a good purpose in that it's particular slant grooves with particular types of individuals who would might be lost without it. Konx Om Pax? Shamefully I can't answer your question but I can assure you that the introduction by Martin Starr will be worth your time. He is a great Thelemic scholar and has a new book that I would recommend to anyone interested in Thelema.
Here's a pic of the book----->www.ravenoir.com...

So I guess you're a Mason? What city?

93's

HeirX

Originally posted by TgSoe

I don't know if the OTO would be right for me but I am atleast trying to read all the suggested reading on the Grandlodge OTO site. I just ordered Konzx Om Pax by Aliester Crowley for a Fathers day present. Luckily a lot of the writngs are free on the web. Konx Om Pax is quite expensive. I hope its worth the money.

You must of been a very good dad!

As far as worth goes, it all depends on you. Myself I don't like to pay the big bucks for recent reprints. I got my copy (Early 70's paperback) for $3 at a used book store.

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by TgSoe

I don't know if the OTO would be right for me but I am atleast trying to read all the suggested reading on the Grandlodge OTO site. I just ordered Konzx Om Pax by Aliester Crowley for a Fathers day present. Luckily a lot of the writngs are free on the web. Konx Om Pax is quite expensive. I hope its worth the money.

You must of been a very good dad!

As far as worth goes, it all depends on you. Myself I don't like to pay the big bucks for recent reprints. I got my copy (Early 70's paperback) for $3 at a used book store.

It's true, you DO have to shop around. I got my copy of 777 and other Qaballistic writings of Aliester Crowley at a new age bookstore for $9.00, which was 25% off the cover price. I considered that a bargain!

(The scribe looketh upwards and crieth) Amen! Thou hast spoken it, Lord God!

Liber Cordis Cincti Serpente, I:31


[edit on 22-6-2005 by Toelint]

Originally posted by Toelint

It's true, you DO have to shop around. I got my copy of 777 and other Qaballistic writings of Aliester Crowley at a new age bookstore for $9.00, which was 25% off the cover price. I considered that a bargain!

Well not quite the same thing. The 1990 hardcover version of Konx Om Pax is selling for $150 -$200 right now. Now I will admit to spending WAY too much money on 2 first edition Crowley books, but that was more for collecting than for any real use.

(The scribe looketh upwards and crieth) Amen! Thou hast spoken it, Lord God!

Liber Cordis Cincti Serpente, I:31

OK you got me... I can sorta understand someone having 777 and not knowing about the O.T.O. (The O.T.O. is mentioned on the copyright page only) But how can someone who can quote from one of the Thelemic Holy Books not know about the O.T.O.?

Originally posted by HeirX
Is the matter particular to the Baptist and Evangelist or is there something in the name John itself? Is there a relation to Jah? Jonah? ....and the many other Johns? Have you read Burn's version of John Barleycorn?

I have not read it but would like to,

The OTO isn't right for everyone. Perhaps it would be good for you perhaps not. The OTO isn't the be-all end-all but serves a good purpose in that it's particular slant grooves with particular types of individuals who would might be lost without it. He is a great Thelemic scholar and has a new book that I would recommend to anyone interested in Thelema.
Here's a pic of the book----->www.ravenoir.com...

Wow thats a creepy looking cover I might get that one as well.

So I guess you're a Mason? What city?

I have stood proficiency for FC but not MM in near Atlanta Ga.

Originally posted by Cug

You must of been a very good dad!

As far as worth goes, it all depends on you. Myself I don't like to pay the big bucks for recent reprints. I got my copy (Early 70's paperback) for $3 at a used book store.

Oh yes an excellent Dad I am, should I change the kids know the number 911. LOL


Well I might should have shopped around a bit mine was $93.00.


Yesterday was Summer Solstice does that mean that daylight gets shorter and shorter now? The moon looked blood red last night as it came over the horizon, I've never seen it so red.

Ahhh I might of been tempted at $93 (Oops hidden occult symbolism!) it is a nice edition, still quite the premium over the $27 cover price. To tell the truth I never had much luck shopping around. I buy them when I see them.

OH yea, yep the days are getting shorter now.

a new book that I would recommend to anyone interested in Thelema. Here's a pic of the book----->www.ravenoir.com...

W.T. Smith and the Thelemites…. Man what a great band name! Thelemic DooWop songs!

Wooo wooo Al wooooo Al.... Why do fools mistake love...

Err nevermind I'm getting silly.


[edit on 6/22/2005 by Cug]

Quote: "or is there something in the name John itself?"

Yes – the name "John" is the Anglicized version of the name "(J)ohannes" (Greek I believe).
The name "(J)ohannes" is what appears on the Tomb Stone of Pope "John" Paul II.

I believe that it has a Connection to a Gnostic Pagan god/angel by the name of "(J)ohannes" (can somebody help me out here).

That this name "John" is so easily/readily tied into Christian Root Culture is a very telling sign!


[edit on 22-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
I am sorry if you found that last comment Rude - Libra. I couldn't help myself!

I fail to see how it could have been taken any other way than "rude" and inflammatory.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
It is Interesting - you mentioned that group that College group that you were a part - P.S.A. was it?

Yes. The Pagan Student Alliance. A campus organization for people who basically didn't fall into the standard "Christian, Muslim, Jewish" faiths. Most members were Wiccan.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Question have you ever ran into anyone that actually identified themselves as being in the "O.T.O"? Or was it just a bunch of bored kids in Texas pretending to be a part of the "O.T.O" like you said?

Both. The two are not mutually exclusive for any religion.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Why would you come to a conclusion of the actual O.T.O if these kids were just pulling your chain?

You really have a knack for presumption, and ignoring a very obvious facts stated multiple times. For one, your question is misleading. For another, how can put this in terms you are capable of comprehending, since apparently you are a bit slow on the uptake. I'll state it again, in bold print. Please pay attention.

I was in my late teens. I was relatively new to Wicca. I was surrounded by people who were already mostly delusional. However, it -was- an Austin O.T.O. chapter. That much was verified.

If that doesn't answer whatever you're trying to get at, don't bother rephrasing it. I'm tiring of this. Your responses are deliberately misleading, inflammatory, and presumptuous, and I'm through wasting my time on them. I told a story that happened to me, regarding the OTO, a long ago. That's it. It was not an invitation for a "measuring contest". If you want to do that, take it to U2U.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Have you ever considered that "Magick" could be a form of Manipulation in itself?

I hope this is a reasonable, debatable question, and not bait for another insult. I'll give the benefit of the doubt for now.

Yes. Of course. My views on magic have changed and solidified over the years until my conclusion is this: Magic is a method of influencing an outcome through the transfer of energy from one medium to another. By nature, this would constitute Manipulation.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "or is there something in the name John itself?"

Yes – the name "John" is the Anglicized version of the name "(J)ohannes" (Greek I believe).

Just a quicky..as my name is John I have a ton of translations of it.

Johannes is Latin. John in Greek is Ιωάννης (Ioannis).

Originally posted by TgSoe

Originally posted by HeirX
Is the matter particular to the Baptist and Evangelist or is there something in the name John itself? Is there a relation to Jah? Jonah? ....and the many other Johns? Have you read Burn's version of John Barleycorn?

I have not read it but would like to,

TG---

Here goes:

John Barleycorn
Robert Burns

There was three kings into the east,
Three kings both great and high,
And they hae sworn a solemn oath
John Barleycorn should die.

They took a plough and plough'd him down,
Put clods upon his head,
And they hae sworn a solemn oath
John Barleycorn was dead.

But the cheerful Spring came kindly on,
And show'rs began to fall;
John Barleycorn got up again,
And sore surpris'd them all.

The sultry suns of Summer came,
And he grew thick and strong;
His head weel arm'd wi' pointed spears,
That no one should him wrong.

The sober Autumn enter'd mild,
When he grew wan and pale;
His bending joints and drooping head
Show'd he began to fail.

His colour sicken'd more and more,
He faded into age;
And then his enemies began
To show their deadly rage.

They've taen a weapon, long and sharp,
And cut him by the knee;
Then tied him fast upon a cart,
Like a rogue for forgerie.

They laid him down upon his back,
And cudgell'd him full sore;
They hung him up before the storm,
And turn'd him o'er and o'er.

They laid him out upon the floor,
To work him further woe;
And still, as signs of life appear'd,
They toss'd him to and fro.

They wasted, o'er a scorching flame,
The marrow of his bones;
But a miller us'd him worst of all,
For he crush'd him between two stones.

And they hae taen his very heart's blood,
And drank it round and round;
And still the more and more they drank,
Their joy did more abound.

John Barleycorn was a hero bold,
Of noble enterprise;
For if you do but taste his blood,
'Twill make your courage rise.

'Twill make a man forget his woe;
'Twill heighten all his joy;
'Twill make the widow's heart to sing,
Tho' the tear were in her eye.

Then let us toast John Barleycorn,
Each man a glass in hand;
And may his great posterity
Ne'er fail in old Scotland!

Again Libra - I am Sorry. I Apologize. I did not mean to Offend you.

I get it that you were young & that some of the people that you encountered could have been quite Delusional. I have ran into these types of people myself!


Ioannis - That is IT Cug! Thanx! Do you have any insight on the Occult connection/association/meaning to this name that you would like so share with us ATS heads? I find this stuff quite Fascinating!

[edit on 22-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 22-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]