Ordo Templii Orientis: Who the heck are these guys??

Seriously, until two hours ago, I'd never heard of this group. I just spent the past thirty or so minutes at a debunker's website...and another thirty minutes or so at the O.T.O. main website.

Flipping through one links photo gallery (You can link into different "lodges" from the mainsite) I get the impression that maybe it's a SUPERcoven or something.

A visit to BOTH websites left me feeling VERY uneasy. Hey, I'm NOT joking! This is the VERY FIRST TIME reading about a secret society gave me the spooks.

Here's the two links:

oto-usa.org...

user.cyberlink.ch...



[edit on 16-6-2005 by Toelint]

[edit on 18-6-2005 by John bull 1]

Originally posted by Toelint
Seriously, until two hours ago, I'd never heard of this group. I just spent the past thirty or so minutes at a debunker's website...and another thirty minutes or so at the O.T.O. main website.

Basically they are Golden Dawn wanna-be's.

Originally posted by Toelint
A visit to BOTH websites left me feeling VERY uneasy. Hey, I'm NOT joking! This is the VERY FIRST TIME reading about a secret society gave me the spooks.

May I ask what it is exactly that made you feel uneasy?

I have been looking into OTO, but admittedly I haven't looked much further than their main website yet. I read the ritual for the Gnostic Mass, and I didn't see anything that really made me uneasy. I have to say that this is the kind of stuff that would make fundamentalist Christians load their britches though.

I am interested just what freaked you out so much?

Just Me74: I wouldn't call them wanna-be's, but from what I have seen and read they do closely resemble Golden Dawn Orders and such.

Why are people so freaked out by occultism? If it's not for you, fine, but is there really any reason to get all bent out of shape?

Actually I was going to start a thread in a similar vein, but I think instead I'll see where this one goes. Hopefully we can keep the trolling down to a dull roar and get some good info exchange going on.

[edit on 6/16/05 by The Axeman]

Well first of all, what gave you the spooks? As Axman said for a Christian there is plenty there to give one the spooks.

As for the Golden Dawn wanabee comment, the O.T.O. and the G.D. really are quite different. The only similarities would be members of both groups practice Ceremonial Magick, and they are both fraternal groups (Well fraternal is the wrong word as both male and females may join.) that’s pretty much it.

The major differences would be that the Golden Dawn is a teaching order.. The O.T.O. is more of a social order. The teaching order of Thelema would be the A.’.A.’. And that the Golden Dawn is not a religious order, the O.T.O. is

A good source of information about the O.T.O. and Thelema would be this site. www.thelemapedia.org...

For what it’s worth Peter Koenig’s site, is the O.T.O.’s version of the Freemasonarywatch site. But he does support one of the O.T.O. offshoot groups so it’s a bit different.

Originally posted by The Axeman
I read the ritual for the Gnostic Mass, and I didn't see anything that really made me uneasy. I have to say that this is the kind of stuff that would make fundamentalist Christians load their britches though.

Well other than the whole mass is a thinly veiled sex act, there is the ingredient list of the cakes of light that are used for the Eucharist. (but nowdays that has been sanitized because of AIDS.)

I have been intrigued by the OTO for years as well by Crowley. I did grow up fundaMENTAList and anything related to Crowley, magic, or to secret societies is considered evil.

I would like to know about how the Mass is a thinkly veiled sex act. Especially what is the ingredient list for the cakes of light...

Take it easy

Originally posted by Egg Mundane
I would like to know about how the Mass is a thinkly veiled sex act. Especially what is the ingredient list for the cakes of light...

Take it easy

You can read it for yourself here.

I believe Cug is referring to blood (possibly even menstral blood), which some Thelamite friends of mine referred to on one occaision. Personally, I think it is gross, but they mentioned that wine dregs can be used. I don't see how blood or wine can be used to make cakes of "light," I don't think it would enoble the spirit.

I have met several members of OTO, and I can confirm that the order is probably not dangerous, and definitely not out to take over the world.

Still, they are definitely not for me.

Hello all and 93

I am both a Mason and a member of the O.T.O.

If I can help clear up any misunderstandings it would be my pleasure.

Enlight me because I am ignorant fool, I think OTO is mindless cult and it is satanism for every christian believer.
Rituals are rather pointless and it is again all over control of the membership.
Like every cult it has to have some candy, but if the candy is with menstrual blood, no thanks.

Significant esoteric thinkers and groups which influenced the gathering Nazi philosophy include thr Order of the Templar Orientalis , which used sex as part of its rituals to create and harness the energy known as the Vril, and two German esoteric magicians , Guido von List and Lanz von Liebenfehls. In his summer solstice celebrations, List used wine bottles in the ground to form the symbol of the Hermetic Cross, also known as the Hammer of Thor. It was the Badge of Power in the Order of the Golden Dawn, and we know this symbol as the (reversed) swastika. Lanz von Liebenfels featured the swastika on the flag which flew over his temple overlooking the Danube, and for these two black magicians it symbolised the end of Christianity and the dawning of the age of the Aryan superman
In 1932 with Hitler on the verge of power, von Liebenfels would write to a fellow believer
"Hitler is one of our pupils. You will one day experience that he, and through him we, will one day be victorious, and develop a movement that will make the world tremble"

[edit on 16-6-2005 by dh]

Originally posted by MankoW
Enlight me because I am ignorant fool, I think OTO is mindless cult and it is satanism for every christian believer.
Rituals are rather pointless and it is again all over control of the membership.
Like every cult it has to have some candy, but if the candy is with menstrual blood, no thanks.

For a self-proclaimed ignorant fool you sure have a lot of opinions!

The OTO is not a cult by very definintion of the word.

Satanism? In my ten years in the OTO I've never heard the name of Satan used. Satan is a Christian concept. I personally am not a Christian. Are you?

If rituals are pointless than I would suggest you shy away from them. The OTO isn't for everyone and I wouldn't suggest you join.

If you have a particular question I will do my best to answer it.

All best.

Originally posted by MankoW
Enlight me because I am ignorant fool, I think OTO is mindless cult and it is satanism for every christian believer.

That more of a problem with the Christian believer than the OTO. I have a feeling you also feel Hinduisim is also satanic correct?

Rituals are rather pointless and it is again all over control of the membership.
Like every cult it has to have some candy, but if the candy is with menstrual blood, no thanks.

What rituals have you read?

Originally posted by dh
Significant esoteric thinkers and groups which influenced the gathering Nazi philosophy include thr Order of the Templar Orientalis , which used sex as part of its rituals to create and harness the energy known as the Vril, and two German esoteric magicians , Guido von List and Lanz von Liebenfehls. In his summer solstice celebrations, List used wine bottles in the ground to form the symbol of the Hermetic Cross, also known as the Hammer of Thor. It was the Badge of Power in the Order of the Golden Dawn, and we know this symbol as the (reversed) swastika. Lanz von Liebenfels featured the swastika on the flag which flew over his temple overlooking the Danube, and for these two black magicians it symbolised the end of Christianity and the dawning of the age of the Aryan superman

That has nothing to do with the O.T.O., I'm not sure why you posted this?


93 HeirX,

I'll be taking my Minerval this fall

I have been to to OTO org site, and what caught my attention is rose and the cross behind the text, what is the simbology of this in OTO and is it connected with the rosekreutzerian ((!!spelling)). Or it is random symbol?
I will try to read more, and this satanism part was for the christian point of view, isn't it?

Originally posted by Cug

That has nothing to do with the O.T.O., I'm not sure why you posted this?


93 HeirX,

I'll be taking my Minerval this fall

This is purely to do with the OTO - this is the origin and the continuance as can be found from Wikipedia and so on
It's the basis of Nazi philosophy and the continuum from there to the occultist and satanic corporate statism of today

Originally posted by dh
It was the Badge of Power in the Order of the Golden Dawn, and we know this symbol as the (reversed) swastika. Lanz von Liebenfels featured the swastika on the flag which flew over his temple overlooking the Danube, and for these two black magicians it symbolised the end of Christianity and the dawning of the age of the Aryan superman

I don't understand how in one sentence, you refer to a symbol which looks like a reverse swastika, a symbol which has nothing to do with Nazism, then in another sentence you take the use of this symbol to mean that the group using it was Nazi! Come on now...

...were you talking about a Nazi Swastika, or something else? Keep in mind that the symbol you know as the swastika has been in use for thousands of years in India and Asia, and had nothing to do with Nazism.


[edit on 16-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by MankoW
I have been to to OTO org site, and what caught my attention is rose and the cross behind the text, what is the simbology of this in OTO and is it connected with the rosekreutzerian ((!!spelling)). Or it is random symbol?
I will try to read more, and this satanism part was for the christian point of view, isn't it?

The Rose and Cross is a very complex symbol. It would be impossible for me to explain the whole symbol to you in this place. In actuality, it means different things to different people. To answer your question, the Rose/Cross is indeed an important symbol to many in the OTO and there are certainly parallels between our philosophy and that of the Rosicrucians although they are not identical.

93 Cug and congrats on your upcoming Initiation. I will be happy to learn how things work out and if I can be of any assistance, let me know.

Then why did the Nazi's put the head of the German O.T.O. in a prison camp?

Why didn’t the Nazi's follow ANY of the basic precepts of Thelema?

Why didn't the British Government arrest Crowley during WWII

Why did the American Government allow a officer in the Army to correspond and visit with Crowley?

Why did they allow an O.T.O. to work in a top secret environment?

As nice as wikipedia is, it's not the definitive source of information. Anyone can edit anything on there. I can make a wikipedia article about how the ATS poster dh is really a small green vase.. that wont make it true.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by dh
It was the Badge of Power in the Order of the Golden Dawn, and we know this symbol as the (reversed) swastika. Lanz von Liebenfels featured the swastika on the flag which flew over his temple overlooking the Danube, and for these two black magicians it symbolised the end of Christianity and the dawning of the age of the Aryan superman

I don't understand how in one sentence, you refer to a symbol which looks like a reverse swastika, a symbol which has nothing to do with Nazism, then in another sentence you take the use of this symbol to mean that the group using it was Nazi! Come on now...

...were you talking about a Nazi Swastika, or something else? Keep in mind that the symbol you know as the swastika has been in use for thousands of years in India and Asia, and had nothing to do with Nazism.


[edit on 16-6-2005 by sebatwerk]

Well, you're all sun-worshippers
Reversed we have the black sun
9-11 and all, and all its symbolism - the route is still towards the big brother Nazi society with all the formerly esoteric knowledge pasted up on the outside so with the electronic control - now permeating everywhere - we can get used to it

Originally posted by HeirX
93 Cug and congrats on your upcoming Initiation. I will be happy to learn how things work out and if I can be of any assistance, let me know.

What does "93" mean?