Originally posted by dh
Accusations of trolling aimed at ideas you dont agree with are troll in themselves, as are pipsqueak accusations

Actually, no. You are either a bad troll, or a good parrot. You believe the first things you come across on conspiracy websites such as Freemasonrywatch.com and post them here, pretending that they are your own thoughts and ideas, like a good parrot should.

Here is a Guardian editorial comment that applies to you

The lower levels were put in concentration camps by the Third Reich simply so they could not reveal the occult dominance of the regime

OK, whatever you say! How this applies to me, I'm not sure. According to you and your ilk, I am a "high-ranking" mason, am I not? I control the "rank-and-file" masons, and brainwash them into doing my bidding, correct?

Even so, ALL Freemasons were put in concentration camps. There is no such thing as "lower-levels" in Freemasonry. All masons are equal members in the fraternity. There is no supreme hirearchy, rank, authority or suboordination in Freemasonry.

So much for your argument.

Originally posted by dh

The lower levels were put in concentration camps by the Third Reich simply so they could not reveal the occult dominance of the regime, much as the rocket scientists and mind control and torture experts were channelled to the US at the end of the war

I might as well comment on this to keep this thread about the O.T.O.

The Head of the German O.T.O. was put into a prision camp... not just low ranking members.

here is a scan of the papers that put him there.

I'm new at this sort of thing. Walk away for 24 hours and folks are spewing all kinds of things. Amazing.

Seb---sorry 'bout the implication. I was leaving work and didn't word my post very well. No, I didn't expect you to know that based on the fact you were a Mason. Sorry.

Axeman- It's been good reading your posts here. You're not a Thelemite and you are able to keep and open mind and go where the facts take you. Right on.

Cug- Keep fighting the good fight.

Originally posted by defcon5
I can see now were masonry gets the flag of being satanic/Luciferian, since it’s rooted in this, Cabala, and Gnosticism. While I understand that perhaps the god, gods or goddesses, of this religion do not hold the same name of Satan or Lucifer, any Christian is going to look at this as being exactly that.

Any Christian? It might interest you to know that the early Gnostics were in fact Christians. Some would argue that what the Gnostics practiced was closer to the true teachings of Jesus than what Paul was selling all over the world. I'm not sure what you mean by 'any christian.' Cabala is the esoteric doctrine that is taught to Rabbis that are deemed as 'fit' to learn it. Did you know that Jesus was a Rabbi?

There is nothing satanic or luciferian in Masonry or the OTO. There is nothing satanic or luciferian about the caballa or gnosticism.

try again....

Originally posted by The Axeman
I may not fully understand Thelema, hell, I might not even agree with Thelema, but I will not make statements condemning or vilifying them when I speak from a position of ignorance. I choose to educate myself before coming to conclusions; something you seem to have difficulty with.

You know I really like this post. And I wish more people were like this. I don't have a single problem with folks who dislike or even hate with a passion Thelema or any Thelemic group if the reason they do is true. lord knows there are plenty of reasons if you don’t know how to read Crowley (or for that mater even if you do)

Dislike us because we are not Christian... fine
Dislike us because we are sexually open... fine
Dislike us because of the comments about Jesus in Liber Al... fine
Dislike us because you just don't like Crowley... fine

Dislike us because we are behind the Nazi's... not fine
Dislike us because we control the Free Masons ... not fine
Dislike us because we kill babys… not fine
Dislike us because we abuse children… not fine
Dislike us because we are Satan worshipers… not fine


[edit on 6/17/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by HeirX
I'm new at this sort of thing. Walk away for 24 hours and folks are spewing all kinds of things. Amazing.

Haven't you read Thelema93L?

If you want to read some real spewing read some of the 20+ page mason posts.

If someone already said this, forgive me, I'm in a bit of a hurry and have'nt read all the posts.

I have read they had some dealings with the Necronomicon.



EDIT to add: Atleast one of the last copies of it.

[edit on 6/18/2005 by iori_komei]

First off Sebatwerk take a chill pill, matter of fact take two if one is not going to be enough to get you to shut off the automated mason defense system. 99% of these things I was saying where aimed at the members of these Hermetic Orders, and the only reference in there to masonry is the understanding that Hermeticism is one of the foundations of Freemasonry, hence the fact you don’t understand what I am talking about…

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by defcon5
I can see now were masonry gets the flag of being satanic/Luciferian, since it’s rooted in this, Cabala, and Gnosticism. While I understand that perhaps the god, gods or goddesses, of this religion do not hold the same name of Satan or Lucifer, any Christian is going to look at this as being exactly that.

Freemasonry is NOT a relligion, and it DOES NOT have it's own God!!!!!! Holy crap man! Can't you do even a little bit of basic research before coming in here and posting falsities and misleading readers who don't know any better?!?

I believe that I am not saying that freemasonry is a religion, but is based on Hermetic, Gnosticism, and Cabala, in its rights, symbolism, and rituals. If you need me too I can dig through this entire web site to find where one of your brothers (I believe that it was Masonic Light) openly admitted this. So the entire two sentences was directed at the OTO members, not at you! I was simply stating I can see now the connection as to why Christians would be so against masonry, and why it is so often accused of being Luciferianism/Satanism.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by defcon5
Though your religion may allow a Christian to be a part of it, “as long as they can fulfill their organizational role”, no true Christian would ever be able to accept the dogmas of this religion and keep true Christian beliefs intact. The point I am making is that by whatever name you call it, or the gods of it, it is diametrically opposed to the message of Christianity.

Freemasonry is NOT a religion. It teaches Freemasons lessons straight from the Bible, and encourages them to be more faithful in their own personal religions in order to be a better person. How can Freemasonry's message be diametrically opposed to Christianity, if it descends directly from it?!?!?!?!?!?

No again, actually what is Christian in Freemasonry? Nothing... The only Bible references do not involve Jesus Christ or his teachings, but rather they involve OLD Testament parts of the Bible which is in line with the fact that Freemasonry is also based on Cabala, which also uses parts from the OLD Testament, as well as both using other Psudopigraphal works.

My entire quote here was directed to the OTO members, BTW!

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by defcon5
I am not flaming it, or picking on it or anything else, I am simply stating that the message I have seen so far is to mock the Christian communion, and to teach people to choose their will and the law above all else.

This demonstrates that you do not even have a basic knowledge of Freemasonry. Freemasonry does NOTHING of the sort, I don't know WHERE you get your information.

Obviously targeted straight at OTO, I’m not even sure how you could make that mistake. Other then being WAY too defensive about Freemasonry, could it be that you just don’t like that someone has figured out the way that you get around saying its not unacceptable for a Christian becasue its not Satanic/Luciferian, when it IS in fact deeply rooted in pagan religion?

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by defcon5
It is funny to see now the way that Masons like Masonic light can feel Ok in recruiting Christians by playing name games by stating it’s not Satanic or Luciferian, while the two theologies can obviously not peacefully co-exist.

Freemasons are absolutely forbidden from recruiting. A man must come to the lodge of his own free will and accord to be accepted into our organization. If he is coerced or pushed in some way, we will not accept him.

Yeah, how about Price Edward, I believe it was him (I can look that up from where you Mason guys were discussing that one too), that was FORCED to join?
I was similarly pressured to join it myself.

But was not the point I was making anyway, what I was saying is that although guys like Masonic Light know what masonry is based on they are not up front about it with new guys coming in, they just say its not Satanism or Luciferianism. Which although this is not an up front lie, it’s a lie of omission. He certainly does not tell people that ask about it, “Well it does have some rituals that have basis in magic, and paganism, so you might want to look into that before you join”.

I must say that so far I have MUCH more respect for the OTO, because at least they are up front about what they're truly about and even post their ceremonies on the net and tell people to check what they are prior to being involved with them.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by defcon5

Although masonry is mainly a fraternity, it is based on several pagan religions, and they obviously lie on that factor, and while it may not be a religion unto itself, all its ritual, symbolism, etc is based on it. They keep these facts hidden until the initiate is already gone too far into the religion to understand what they have gotten themselves into.

How can you say that Freemasonry is not a religon, then call it a religion in the very next sentence!?!?!? You're absoolutely confused as to what Freemasonry is and does, and I suggest you look at these sources of information, then come back here and try again.

Because I was speaking of two separate things, Hermiticism and Freemasonry, I would have thought you had caught on to that by at least this part of the post. I don’t need to look up you freemasonry stuff, it’s already been explained well enough for me by guys like Masonic Light, (Mr. FIAT LUX himself)


CUG

I will take this to another thread if need be, but I don’t think that it should be required. I was obviously interested in the relationship between these organizations. I am therefore just clarifying what was obviously misunderstood in my posts.




[edit on 6/18/2005 by defcon5]

Originally posted by HeirX
Any Christian? It might interest you to know that the early Gnostics were in fact Christians. Some would argue that what the Gnostics practiced was closer to the true teachings of Jesus than what Paul was selling all over the world. I'm not sure what you mean by 'any christian.' Cabala is the esoteric doctrine that is taught to Rabbis that are deemed as 'fit' to learn it. Did you know that Jesus was a Rabbi?

There is nothing satanic or luciferian in Masonry or the OTO. There is nothing satanic or luciferian about the caballa or gnosticism.

try again....

I am not saying that your gods have the name of Lucifer or Satan, they obviously do not. That being said the stigma of the ceremonies you perform would be most likely be considered this by a Christian that did not understand that fact. It is obviously of Pagan Origin and most Christians are going to lump that all into devil worship by whatever name you wish to call it. Call it BOB and it still going to be looked at that way.

What I was again saying is that there is a link between these two organizations and therefore both are obviously pagan. Gnosticism cannot be true Christianity, because a Gnostic believes that arcane knowledge is their salvation, by definition a Christian believes the Grace of God through the death of Christ is their salvation, hence one being called Gnosticism and the other “Christ”ianity…

I am also aware that many Rabbis’ believe in Cabala, I have read much of it myself, but would never think to try anything that is written in it. Cabala is Jewish White Magic, preformed through the tree of life and the commanding to the proper heavenly beings at the proper time and of the proper realm of influence, correct?

While Christ may have been considered to be a Rabbi, which simply means teacher and is not the same as a priest, most Hebrews themselves to this day do not consider him to be one. So at different points Christianity separates from Judaism, and therefore Cabala. Is Cabala acceptable to Christians, the answer is no, and it is not acceptable to all Hebrews either. It is diametrically opposed to Christianity in that man is not supposed to be able to affect the will of God through the use of “magic”; he is supposed to simply accept it.

This does not mean it cannot be done, simply that a Christian is not supposed to do it, his way to do it is through prayer to God and faith that God will answer him appropriately (Yes, No, Later). Trying to tip the scale because you don’t like the answer is a very worldly thing to do and therefore shows that you lack faith in the answer that God gave you, and as such you try and change things on your own through another means.

[edit on 6/18/2005 by defcon5]

oops!

[edit on 6/18/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by defcon5
CUG

I will take this to another thread if need be, but I don’t think that it should be required. I was obviously interested in the relationship between these organizations. I am therefore just clarifying what was obviously misunderstood in my posts.

No need to take it to another post... Just stop talking about the masons! All that is going to do is bring them in here and defend themselves and frankly with what you said I don't blame them.

I can see now were masonry gets the flag of being satanic/Luciferian, since it’s rooted in this, Cabala, and Gnosticism. While I understand that perhaps the god, gods or goddesses, of this religion do not hold the same name of Satan or Lucifer, any Christian is going to look at this as being exactly that.

I had no clue you were talking about the O.T.O. the only thing OTOish you posted was asking about the Law of Thelema.

I’ll tell you what I’ll respond to your other post like you were talking about the O.T.O.

Ill change the word masonry to Thelema (The “religion” of the O.T.O.) as that is what you claim you were talking about.

I can see now were masonry {Thelema ed} gets the flag of being satanic/Luciferian, since it’s rooted in this, Cabala, and Gnosticism. While I understand that perhaps the god, gods or goddesses, of this religion do not hold the same name of Satan or Lucifer, any Christian is going to look at this as being exactly that.

That’s fine with me as long as you believe that the Gods of the Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc… are also Satan in another name. IMHO that’s your problem, not mine. Just as long you understand that WE do not believe that.

{{edit}} oops I missed a part of this. please stand by while I edit this again. OK here it is.

Though your religion may allow a Christian to be a part of it, “as long as they can fulfill their organizational role”, no true Christian would ever be able to accept the dogmas of this religion and keep true Christian beliefs intact.

The point I am making is that by whatever name you call it, or the gods of it, it is diametrically opposed to the message of Christianity.

Correct! The O.T.O. is not anything like a Christian organization, never claimed to be, never will be

I am not flaming it, or picking on it or anything else, I am simply stating that the message I have seen so far is to mock the Christian communion, and to teach people to choose their will and the law above all else. When to a Christian, communion is the most sacred of sacraments

Why do you think communion is a Christian only thing?

It is funny to see now the way that Masons like Masonic light can feel Ok in recruiting Christians by playing name games by stating it’s not Satanic or Luciferian, while the two theologies can obviously not peacefully co-exist. Although masonry is mainly a fraternity, it is based on several pagan religions, and they obviously lie on that factor, and while it may not be a religion unto itself, all its ritual, symbolism, etc is based on it. They keep these facts hidden until the initiate is already gone too far into the religion to understand what they have gotten themselves into.

How were you not talking about Masonry here? Again I just can’t make a comment about the O.T.O. biased on this.



[edit on 6/18/2005 by Cug]

Originally posted by defcon5
This does not mean it cannot be done, simply that a Christian is not supposed to do it, his way to do it is through prayer to God and faith that God will answer him appropriately (Yes, No, Later). Trying to tip the scale because you don’t like the answer is a very worldly thing to do and therefore shows that you lack faith in the answer that God gave you, and as such you try and change things on your own through another means.

One more time just in case. Thelemites are not Christian!

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by HeirX
I'm new at this sort of thing. Walk away for 24 hours and folks are spewing all kinds of things. Amazing.

Haven't you read Thelema93L?

If you want to read some real spewing read some of the 20+ page mason posts.

93 Cug, Like I said, I'm new at this business. I've been in the OTO for ten years but I've never run into this kind of ranting before. Yeesh!

You know quite a bit for a wanna-be zygote.

Why does everyone on here respond to all the loons? Let's just keep this thread on topic and ignore the folks that just like to hear themselves.....type? I just don't get it.

For all who care, the OTO has been one of the most enriching experiences of my life and I don't have one bad thing to say about it. As I've grown older Masonry has become attractive and I am finding it too to be a great organization. I'm giving a lecture to my local lodge in two weeks about the Holy Sts. John.

For those of you worried about some satanic-luciferian conspiracy, God bless you. For those of you finding Light in the Ancient Mystery traditions, God bless you.

I'll take the Light over the paranoia any day though.

In all fairness maybe it’s me that has gotten you guys confused because I have not had time to study enough on what the differences is between Hermetic, Thelema, and OTO. I simply know that Hermticism is one of the basis for Freemasonry. In such perhaps I have not stated the questions clearly, so I will try to explain myself more concisely.

Here let me also clarify this again
Asked to someone in the OTO:

I can see now were masonry gets the flag of being satanic/Luciferian,

Talking about masonry

since it’s rooted in this, Cabala, and Gnosticism.

This being Hermeticism.

While I understand that perhaps the god, gods or goddesses, of this religion do not hold the same name of Satan or Lucifer, any Christian is going to look at this as being exactly that.

About OTO and Hermeticism

And so on… But maybe there is something here I am just not understanding.

To my understanding the Law of Thelema is like your version of the Bible I am guessing, please correct me if I am wrong here. So this would be the basis for Hermeticism and the OTO then, right or wrong?

Then since by the masons own admission that they are at least partly based on this religion (Hermetic), they must therefore also follow the Law of Thelema, correct?

As far as I know Hereticism has a pantheon of gods/goddesses, and so is a good match for masonry in that you must worship a god, any god to be allowed to be a mason.

So the things I was posting were about masonry, in a way, but I was asking them to people I thought were of the Hermetic religion.

Originally posted by Cug
That’s fine with me as long as you believe that the Gods of the Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Wiccans, etc… are also Satan in another name. IMHO that’s your problem, not mine. Just as long you understand that WE do not believe that.

Well what I believe may not be what most other Christians believe, and is not very politically correct, but it is what I believe, so I will explain it. It does not mean that I am not tolerant of other religions, because that is between each person and God IMHO. So please do not get offended by what I am saying because you are similarly free to believe what you will about my God, and I cannot fault you since you have been given free will to believe as you will.

So that being said, yes and no. I believe that there is one God the Father, and three distance personas, the trinity. I believe the reason that most other pagan religions (Satanism, Luciferianism, Wicca, the ancient religions of Baal, and the Egyptians, to name a few by way of example) are able to exist and have some grounds in the ability to perform works, is that they are inherently related to Cabala in a way. I am aware that Cabala may not in fact be as old as these other religions, but you must understand that part of cabala is the commanding of angels through mans higher status in the rank of things. So whether you want to call your deity Max, and say Max is in control of the realm that would be normally covered by Baal, I guarantee you that the same fallen angel that controls that realm is going to answer the call. Does this make any since? So are they all Satan and Lucifer, no, there are many fallen angels that man has called god over the years, some have simply changed names, but they are the same ones.

Originally posted by Cug

Though your religion may allow a Christian to be a part of it, “as long as they can fulfill their organizational role”, no true Christian would ever be able to accept the dogmas of this religion and keep true Christian beliefs intact.

The point I am making is that by whatever name you call it, or the gods of it, it is diametrically opposed to the message of Christianity.

Correct! The O.T.O. is not anything like a Christian organization, never claimed to be, never will be

Here I was directly quoting from the OTO website, and was directed at the OTO and OTO members. Same with the next one about communion….

Originally posted by Cug
Why do you think communion is a Christian only thing?

Well I don’t recall it ever being used in any ancient religions prior to Christ enacting it at the last supper. I do think that since then it has been used by other organizations that are diametrically opposed to Christianity to blaspheme and mock it. The angels I spoke of above would derive a great deal of pleasure from doing exactly that since they were not offered the same deal of forgiveness through grace that man was extended, so they hate communion, they hate what it represents, and the hate man. If they can get man to make fun of this act before God then that must truly amuse them. If I am in error, then please enlighten me. Again not trying to be offensive or inflammatory, just explaining my point of view.

Originally posted by Cug
How were you not talking about Masonry here? Again I just can’t make a comment about the O.T.O. biased on this.

Yeah that was mainly about the masonry and that its based on Hermeticism… sorry, am getting confused myself now.

Originally posted by defcon5
To my understanding the Law of Thelema is like your version of the Bible I am guessing, please correct me if I am wrong here. So this would be the basis for Hermeticism and the OTO then, right or wrong?

Then since by the masons own admission that they are at least partly based on this religion (Hermetic), they must therefore also follow the Law of Thelema, correct?

No not exactly. While MOST religions generally follow the same basic principles for morality, there could be many similarities and parallels found between the two, but Freemasonry has been around FAR longer than Thelema and, if anything, Thelema generally follows the principles of Freemasonry

In any case, ALL of Freemasonry's teachings regarding morals and character can be found directly in the Bible, as well as the Koran, Torah and the teachings of MANY other religions. So maybe its fair to say that Thelema ALSO follows these principles that are taught by many religions.


[edit on 18-6-2005 by sebatwerk]