Ordo Templii Orientis: Who the heck are these guys??

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by HeirX
93 Cug and congrats on your upcoming Initiation. I will be happy to learn how things work out and if I can be of any assistance, let me know.

What does "93" mean?

hey sabat!

in greek, the word for Love, 'agape' and the word for Will, 'thelema', both equal 93.

We use it as a sort of short hand for "Love is the law, love under will."

Aren't you a Mason?

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by HeirX
93 Cug and congrats on your upcoming Initiation. I will be happy to learn how things work out and if I can be of any assistance, let me know.

What does "93" mean?

Sorry Sabat....guess you made it clear that you were a Mason. My bad.

S & F

HeirX

Originally posted by Cug
Then why did the Nazi's put the head of the German O.T.O. in a prison camp?

Why didn’t the Nazi's follow ANY of the basic precepts of Thelema?

Why didn't the British Government arrest Crowley during WWII

Why did the American Government allow a officer in the Army to correspond and visit with Crowley?

Why did they allow an O.T.O. to work in a top secret environment?

As nice as wikipedia is, it's not the definitive source of information. Anyone can edit anything on there. I can make a wikipedia article about how the ATS poster dh is really a small green vase.. that wont make it true.

Command any alternative occult order
They were really recidivist Catholic clergy-style masturbating non-participants
Churchill was a firm mate of Crowley's - they met and communicated - Churchill's famous V for Victory sign was designed by Crowley as a simplified Baphomet sign
The American government imported Nazis at the end of the war - why wouldn't a Masonic government communicate with one of theirs? Particularly one who was so embedded in the Teutonic rites?

[edit on 16-6-2005 by dh]

Originally posted by dh

Well, you're all sun-worshippers
Reversed we have the black sun

What is with this reversing stuff?

You are a God worshiper
Reversed we have Satan. thus you are a Satan worshiper!

Seb, from another post bqasicly it's shorthand for the Thelemic greeting.

93 = Thelema, 93 = Agape so Will(Thelema) =93 love(agape)=93 are related.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law. The Law is Thelema, Thelema = 93 so that's the first line of my sig

Love is the Law, Love under Will. in this line we have Love = Law so that equals 93 Love under Will = Will/law so that makes 93/93

thus

93
93 93/93

means

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Love is the law, love under will

Originally posted by Cug
Seb, from another post bqasicly it's shorthand for the Thelemic greeting.
...
93
93 93/93 means

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law
Love is the law, love under will

Ah, I get it. So it's like a greeting then. I have seen the "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" someplace before, I think an OTO website, but I didn't know it was a greeting.

HeirX: Why would you expect me to know this, simply because I am a mason?

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by dh
Well, you're all sun-worshippers
Reversed we have the black sun

What is with this reversing stuff?

You are a God worshiper
Reversed we have Satan. thus you are a Satan worshiper!

WHat is it with this guy!?!? A Satan worshipper accusing all of us of being [black] sun worshippers!?!?

dh: Please explain this statement:

The American government imported Nazis at the end of the war - why wouldn't a Masonic government communicate with one of theirs?

How can Freemasons be Nazis, when they were put in concentration camps by the Third Reich!?!?!? You're pathetic attempts at being a troll are laughable. You're not even a GOOD troll. You have failed to ever anger me, you're a little pip squeak that serves me for a good laugh. Keep it up -->

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by Toelint
A visit to BOTH websites left me feeling VERY uneasy. Hey, I'm NOT joking! This is the VERY FIRST TIME reading about a secret society gave me the spooks.

May I ask what it is exactly that made you feel uneasy?

I have been looking into OTO, but admittedly I haven't looked much further than their main website yet. I read the ritual for the Gnostic Mass, and I didn't see anything that really made me uneasy. I have to say that this is the kind of stuff that would make fundamentalist Christians load their britches though.

I am interested just what freaked you out so much?

Just Me74: I wouldn't call them wanna-be's, but from what I have seen and read they do closely resemble Golden Dawn Orders and such.

Why are people so freaked out by occultism? If it's not for you, fine, but is there really any reason to get all bent out of shape?

Actually I was going to start a thread in a similar vein, but I think instead I'll see where this one goes. Hopefully we can keep the trolling down to a dull roar and get some good info exchange going on.

[edit on 6/16/05 by The Axeman]

Here is the link to their bodies page. from here, you can link to practically any lodge in the U.S. The Salt Lake City lodge link also has a "team photo" page. Maybe THIS is what spooked me so much.

oto-usa.org...

Originally posted by Toelint

Here is the link to their bodies page. from here, you can link to practically any lodge in the U.S. The Salt Lake City lodge link also has a "team photo" page. Maybe THIS is what spooked me so much.

oto-usa.org...

I don't see a "team photo" page, so I assume your talking about the page with pics from various events.

I still don't know what spooked you... Are you afraid of the funny costumes? Or do the people just look weird to you? I don't see anything other than that in those pictures. Nothing that would seem evil to an outsider.

I don't think anyone in the O.T.O. would dissagree with the statement that some members might be seen as eccentric, outside the norm, "artsy", or even as hippys. But not "spooky"

Originally posted by sebatwerk

Ah, I get it. So it's like a greeting then. I have seen the "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" someplace before, I think an OTO website, but I didn't know it was a greeting.

Just to expand a bit...

Yes it's used as a greeting, but Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law is more than just a greeting. It's the basic statement of Thelemic philosophy.

NOW things are getting Interesting! Mwuhahahahahahaha!

Quote: "SUPERcoven."

You are not too far off!

Quote: "Basically they are Golden Dawn wanna-be's."

Well not really. The "Golden Dawn" was a Hermetic Order
(actually it is the "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn").

The O.T.O. was Originally a GNOSTIC Order - a sort of High Level FreeMasonry.

Aleister Crowley Channeled the "Book of the Law" in 1904.
Later on he became Head of the O.T.O. (Co-Incidentally he was also a Leading Member of the "Golden Dawn") & re-wrote the "Gnostic Mass" & the Initiation Rituals to conform to the Law of Thelema (i.e. "Do What Thou Will Shall be the Whole of the Law" & "Love is the Law - Love under Will"). The older Orders provided Crowley with a Template to work with.

You do not need to be a Member of the O.T.O to be a "Thelemite".

Were is "Masonic Light" - he knows all about this stuff!

ManKow - The O.T.O is a "Cult" just as much as any Christian Church or any Christian Denomination is a "Cult"! So much for "Freedom, Freedom". Translate that to "It's either OUR way or the Highway" or perhaps "You are either With us or Against us". I find Hypocritical Rhetoric SICKENING!

Just what is wrong with being a Pagan anyway? What is wrong with Learning about & Practicing the "Magickal Arts"? This is NOT Automatically "Evil"! You learn pretty quickly that the Laws of SCIENCE (like Karma/Cause & Effect) STILL APPLY! This is all really just about TRUE LIBERTY, FREEDOM & the ability to Empower yourself! The Ability Control your Life's Destiny is a Right that must either be Used or Lost!


[edit on 17-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 17-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 17-6-2005 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente

Well not really. The "Golden Dawn" was a Hermetic Order
(actually it is the "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn").

The "Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn" is a name of one of the modern Golden Dawn Groups. The orginal was called The Order Of the Golden Dawn. Also the Golden Dawn was the name of just the outer order, in time it became a generic name for the whole system.

[[edit]]

After more thought, I might be mistaken on the name.. I will try to find the source I read it in.

Aleister Crowley Channeled the "Book of the Law" in 1904.
Later on he became Head of the O.T.O. (Co-Incidentally he was also a Leading Member of the "Golden Dawn") & re-wrote the "Gnostic Mass" & the Initiation Rituals to conform to the Law of Thelema (i.e. "Do What Thou Will Shall be the Whole of the Law" & "Love is the Law - Love under Will"). The older Orders provided Crowley with a Template to work with.

Well Crowley might be the most famous member, but not really a leading member, his advancement to the inner order is one of the things that split the Golden Dawn up into several offshoot orders.

As a Thelemite I'm going to be picky on the quote of the Law of Thelema. It's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Love is the law, love under will." The correct word's and capitalization are important to us.



[edit on 6/17/2005 by Cug]

I can see now were masonry gets the flag of being satanic/Luciferian, since it’s rooted in this, Cabala, and Gnosticism. While I understand that perhaps the god, gods or goddesses, of this religion do not hold the same name of Satan or Lucifer, any Christian is going to look at this as being exactly that.

Though your religion may allow a Christian to be a part of it, “as long as they can fulfill their organizational role”, no true Christian would ever be able to accept the dogmas of this religion and keep true Christian beliefs intact. The point I am making is that by whatever name you call it, or the gods of it, it is diametrically opposed to the message of Christianity. I am not flaming it, or picking on it or anything else, I am simply stating that the message I have seen so far is to mock the Christian communion, and to teach people to choose their will and the law above all else. When to a Christian, communion is the most sacred of sacraments, and they teach that it’s to be the love/will of God and the acceptance of grace above all else, and that acceptance of the law over grace was what got humans in hot water from the word go.

It is funny to see now the way that Masons like Masonic light can feel Ok in recruiting Christians by playing name games by stating it’s not Satanic or Luciferian, while the two theologies can obviously not peacefully co-exist. Although masonry is mainly a fraternity, it is based on several pagan religions, and they obviously lie on that factor, and while it may not be a religion unto itself, all its ritual, symbolism, etc is based on it. They keep these facts hidden until the initiate is already gone too far into the religion to understand what they have gotten themselves into.

Originally posted by Cug
As a Thelemite I'm going to be picky on the quote of the Law of Thelema. It's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Love is the law, love under will."

I am somewhat curious as a Christian, and having a Christian’s view of the Law as opposed to Grace, what exactly is meant by this quote. Is it that you are to do whatever it is that pleases yourself first, according to your own will, which is to love yourself above all?

Please explain if I do not understand the quote correctly…

Originally posted by defcon5
I can see now were masonry gets the flag of being satanic/Luciferian, since it’s rooted in this, Cabala, and Gnosticism. While I understand that perhaps the god, gods or goddesses, of this religion do not hold the same name of Satan or Lucifer, any Christian is going to look at this as being exactly that.

Freemasonry is NOT a relligion, and it DOES NOT have it's own God!!!!!! Holy crap man! Can't you do even a little bit of basic research before coming in here and posting falsities and misleading readers who don't know any better?!?

Though your religion may allow a Christian to be a part of it, “as long as they can fulfill their organizational role”, no true Christian would ever be able to accept the dogmas of this religion and keep true Christian beliefs intact. The point I am making is that by whatever name you call it, or the gods of it, it is diametrically opposed to the message of Christianity.

Freemasonry is NOT a religion. It teaches Freemasons lessons straight from the Bible, and encourages them to be more faithful in their own personal religions in order to be a better person. How can Freemasonry's message be diametrically opposed to Christianity, if it descends directly from it?!?!?!?!?!?

I am not flaming it, or picking on it or anything else, I am simply stating that the message I have seen so far is to mock the Christian communion, and to teach people to choose their will and the law above all else.

This demonstrates that you do not even have a basic knowledge of Freemasonry. Freemasonry does NOTHING of the sort, I don't know WHERE you get your information.

It is funny to see now the way that Masons like Masonic light can feel Ok in recruiting Christians by playing name games by stating it’s not Satanic or Luciferian, while the two theologies can obviously not peacefully co-exist.

Freemasons are absolutely forbidden from recruiting. A man must come to the lodge of his own free will and accord to be accepted into our organization. If he is coerced or pushed in some way, we will not accept him.

Although masonry is mainly a fraternity, it is based on several pagan religions, and they obviously lie on that factor, and while it may not be a religion unto itself, all its ritual, symbolism, etc is based on it. They keep these facts hidden until the initiate is already gone too far into the religion to understand what they have gotten themselves into.

How can you say that Freemasonry is not a religon, then call it a religion in the very next sentence!?!?!? You're absoolutely confused as to what Freemasonry is and does, and I suggest you look at these sources of information, then come back here and try again.

www.masonicinfo.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

www.masonicinfo.com...

Defcon, Seb... PLEASE take that discussion to another thread. I beg you.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Cug
As a Thelemite I'm going to be picky on the quote of the Law of Thelema. It's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Love is the law, love under will."

I am somewhat curious as a Christian, and having a Christian’s view of the Law as opposed to Grace, what exactly is meant by this quote. Is it that you are to do whatever it is that pleases yourself first, according to your own will, which is to love yourself above all?

Please explain if I do not understand the quote correctly…

I don't think "Do what thou wilt" has anything to do at all with just doing whatever it is you want to do. I think it has more to do with the Will of God and what He has willed for you to do, and you accepting that. I know the wording seems tricky but you have to realize that was one of Crowley's specialties. He loved to confuse people who he deemed unworthy, or so I have been told.

Also, about the Christian/Thelema compatibility/incompatibility, Check this out:

from: oto-usa.org...

The PRIEST:
Thou who art I, beyond all I am,
Who hast no nature and no name,
Who art, when all but thou are gone,
Thou, centre and secret of the Sun,
Thou, hidden spring of all things known
And unknown, Thou aloof, alone,
Thou, the true fire within the reed
Brooding and breeding, source and seed
Of life, love, liberty, and light,
Thou beyond speech and beyond sight,
Thee I invoke, my faint fresh fire
Kindling as mine intents aspire.
Thee I invoke, abiding one,
Thee, centre and secret of the Sun,
And that most holy mystery
Of which the vehicle am I.
Appear, most awful and most mild,
As it is lawful, in thy child!

The CHORUS:

For of the Father and the Son
The Holy Spirit is the norm;
Male-female, quintessential, one,
Man-being veiled in woman-form.
Glory and worship in the highest,
Thou Dove, mankind that deifiest,
Being that race, most royally run
To spring sunshine through winter storm.
Glory and worship be to Thee,
Sap of the world-ash, wonder-tree!

First Semichorus, MEN:

Glory to thee from gilded tomb!

Second Semichorus, WOMEN:

Glory to thee from waiting womb!

MEN:

Glory to Thee from earth unploughed!

WOMEN:

Glory to Thee from virgin vowed!

MEN:

Glory to Thee, true Unity
Of the eternal Trinity!

WOMEN:

Glory to Thee, thou sire and dam
And self of I am that I am!

MEN:

Glory to Thee, beyond all term,
Thy spring of sperm, thy seed and germ!

WOMEN:

Glory to Thee, eternal Sun,
Thou One in Three, Thou Three in One!

CHORUS:

Glory and worship unto Thee,
Sap of the world-ash, wonder-tree!

Any Christians care to take a crack at the symbolism there?

Let me just point out that I am not a Thelemite. Actually, I have read some of Liber AL and found certain parts of it to be... well... let's just say it was enough to give me pause and consider whether I need to chalk it up as blasphemy or look for a deeper meaning of the words...

At any rate I take no position on the matter, I just want to see all the fundies squirm, and see what kind of ideas I can squeeze out of 'em regarding this particular excerpt from the ritual.

Let's try our best, however to keep this about OTO. There are plenty of places to post arguments about Masonry and Christianity, right?


[edit on 6/17/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The Axeman
Glory and worship unto Thee,
Sap of the world-ash, wonder-tree!

A wild goose chase this may be, but that description put me in mind of Yggdrasil of course. The World-Ash.

Originally posted by sebatwerk

dh: Please explain this statement:

The American government imported Nazis at the end of the war - why wouldn't a Masonic government communicate with one of theirs?

How can Freemasons be Nazis, when they were put in concentration camps by the Third Reich!?!?!? You're pathetic attempts at being a troll are laughable. You're not even a GOOD troll. You have failed to ever anger me, you're a little pip squeak that serves me for a good laugh. Keep it up -->

Accusations of trolling aimed at ideas you dont agree with are troll in themselves, as are pipsqueak accusations

Here is a Guardian editorial comment that applies to you

www.guardian.co.uk...

Of course the American government doesn't need to order agents online like China
In the fascist economy, the thought police will spring up like daisies
ATS abounds with them
The lower levels were put in concentration camps by the Third Reich simply so they could not reveal the occult dominance of the regime, much as the rocket scientists and mind control and torture experts were channelled to the US at the end of the war
The Third Reich won WW2 and is now embodied in the White House and the Pentagon and throughout the Western states
No doubt backed by secret society elites
They're all members of the network

[edit on 17-6-2005 by dh]

Originally posted by dh
Accusations of trolling aimed at ideas you dont agree with are troll in themselves, as are pipsqueak accusations

Here is a Guardian editorial comment that applies to you

*snip*

No doubt backed by secret society elites
They're all members of the network

This has abslutely nothing to do with the topic (that would be the OTO). I ask again nicely, PLEASE take this discussion to another thread.

[edit on 6/17/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by defcon5
I can see now were masonry gets the flag of being satanic/Luciferian, since it’s rooted in this, Cabala, and Gnosticism. While I understand that perhaps the god, gods or goddesses, of this religion do not hold the same name of Satan or Lucifer, any Christian is going to look at this as being exactly that.

OK first of all who is talking about the freemasons? We are talking about the O.T.O. and you are correct the O.T.O. is not for Christians, why would it be? It’s a group for Thelemites.

Originally posted by Cug
As a Thelemite I'm going to be picky on the quote of the Law of Thelema. It's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" and "Love is the law, love under will."

I am somewhat curious as a Christian, and having a Christian’s view of the Law as opposed to Grace, what exactly is meant by this quote. Is it that you are to do whatever it is that pleases yourself first, according to your own will, which is to love yourself above all?

The basic idea is that everyone has a “true calling” and if you follow this calling your life will be good. An example I use a lot are those stories of a high power Wall Street type, or a lawyer, or a Doctor that quit their “good” jobs to become a baker, artist or a goat farmer and are MUCH happier with their lives. That is following your Will.


[edit on 6/17/2005 by Cug]

Excuse me - I've kept absolutely to the point
The Nazi-backing OTO are a force behind Hitler, Poppy Bush, other Bushes,Sharon, the United Nations, the whole possession of Masonic novices by forces controlled only by upper levels,the satanic symbolism imposed upon the world by the 9-11 events and the sequelae, the disappearance of children and adults worldwide, and the serial murders
www.guardian.co.uk...
These are integrated networks of death and destruction