The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by saint4God
Since Hebrew and Christianity start "In the Beginning..." how can anything predate it?

You believe Hebrew was the first language ever and that Christianity was the first ever religion?

Monotheism is predated by polytheism. Christianity is not the first monotheistic religion. I'll point you in the direction of 'Zoroastrianism', which is the earliest belief in one God/Deity.

I've never heard such nonsense as nothing predates Hebrew or Christianity. I thought we're supposed to be denying ignorance at ATS?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
You believe Hebrew was the first language ever and that Christianity was the first ever religion?

There's more to the story, but yeah. The reasons for the languages are via Tower of Babel. Before that there was one language.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Monotheism is predated by polytheism.

The word after "In the beginning..." is "God" followed by "created". So no, polytheism did not predate Monotheism.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Christianity is not the first monotheistic religion. I'll point you in the direction of 'Zoroastrianism', which is the earliest belief in one God/Deity.

I'm sorry, but your information has been tampered with. Interestingly enough too was Zoroastrianism was a specific research study for me at the state university.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I've never heard such nonsense as nothing predates Hebrew or Christianity. I thought we're supposed to be denying ignorance at ATS?

Yes, which is half of why I'm here. The other half takes it a step further - to tell the truth.



[edit on 13-12-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
There's more to the story, but yeah. The reasons for the languages are via Tower of Babel. Before that there was one language.

You're entitled to your opinion. But history isn't opinion, it's fact.

Originally posted by saint4God
The word after "In the beginning..." is "God" followed by "created". So no, polytheism did not predate Monotheism.

There are many monotheistic and polytheistic religions that predate Christianity. Jesus was Jewish, hence Judaism must therefore predate Christianity. Again, history is not opinion, it's fact.

Originally posted by saint4God
Yes, which is half of why I'm here. The other half takes it a step further which is to tell the truth.

Then why are you spreading such disinformation? Such as Hebrew was the first language and that nothing predates that or Christianity?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
You're entitled to your opinion.

As you are as well.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
But history isn't opinion, it's fact.

On this we agree.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
There are many monotheistic and polytheistic religions that predate Christianity.

This is your opinion.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Jesus was Jewish, hence Judaism must therefore predate Christianity. Again, history is not opinion, it's fact.

A Messianic Jew would disagree. Christ himself said "before Abraham was born, I am". Christ says he was there before the term "Judaism" was coined.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Then why are you spreading such disinformation?

I am not. What information am I providing that is false. Please be specific and provide details as to why they are false.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Such as Hebrew was the first language

I did not say Hebrew as the first language. I said before there were many languages, there was one. Professor Idsardi who teaches Linguistics can demonstrate what a proto-language means. That is a historical "fact" according to the study. This is comparable to the Tower of Babel, which also states there was one language before that event. After that event, there were many languages so I guess you could say "many languages were born at once"

Originally posted by shaunybaby
and that nothing predates that or Christianity?

To Messainic Jews, Christianity = Judiasm. Those who disagree are called Orthodox Jews, hence the difference between Orthodox and Messianic Jews. This too is a matter of historical fact.

[edit on 13-12-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
But history isn't opinion, it's fact.

Originally posted by saint4God
On this we agree.

Sorry but we're not in agreement on this one. To you Noah's Ark and Tower of Babel are factual historic events. However, they are 'opinions' of history.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
There are many monotheistic and polytheistic religions that predate Christianity.

Originally posted by saint4God
This is your opinion.

No this is a fact. It's your choice to accept this fact. Like I said before, history isn't opinion, it's fact. There are monotheistic and polytheistic religions that predate Christianity. Maybe you'd like to read a book other than The Bible.

Originally posted by saint4God
A Messianic Jew would disagree. Christ himself said "before Abraham was born, I am". Christ says he was there before the term "Judaism" was coined.

Judaism predates Christianity. That's a fact. Again you're welcome to your own opinions of history, but I just thought you'd like to believe in historic truth, rather than a made up version of history.

Originally posted by saint4God
I am not. What information am I providing that is false. Please be specific and provide details as to why they are false.

Hebrew is the first language. Christianity is the first religion. Both false pieces of information. That's not my opinion, that's just a fact. They are predated by other language and religions.

Originally posted by saint4God
I did not say Hebrew as the first language.

I beg to differ:

''Since Hebrew and Christianity start "In the Beginning..." how can anything predate it?''

If nothing predates it, therefore it is the 'first'. So you did say Hebrew was the first language.

Originally posted by saint4God
I said before there were many languages, there was one. Professor Idsardi who teaches Linguistics can demonstrate what a proto-language means. That is a historical "fact" according to the study. This is comparable to the Tower of Babel, which also states there was one language before that event. After that event, there were many languages so I guess you could say "many languages were born at once"

Well in all this Tower of Babel and proto-language and being historic fact according to the study, you seem to forget 'how' languages are formed. Language didn't just start being spoken. It wasn't like there was no speech and then all of a sudden we have a dictionary of words to say. Speech is part of evolution. It progressed from very simple basic language, to the extremely diverse number of languages we have today. I haven't looked it up, I will in a minute and have a read, but I would guess that hand signals and signals we sign with our bodies would predate any spoken language. You seem to think one day there was nothing, and then all of a sudden Hebrew dropped out of the sky and everyone knew it. That's just not how things happen, or indeed happened.

Originally posted by saint4God
To Messainic Jews, Christianity = Judiasm. Those who disagree are called Orthodox Jews, hence the difference between Orthodox and Messianic Jews. This too is a matter of historical fact.

Judaism is 5000+ years old. Christianity is 2000 years old. That's fact. I'm not sure why you're even bothering to try and therefore sell the idea that Christianity is somehow the first religion, when I could name more examples of older religions, Hinduism for one.

[edit on 13-12-2006 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
[

Judaism is 5000+ years old. Christianity is 2000 years old. That's fact. I'm not sure why you're even bothering to try and therefore sell the idea that Christianity is somehow the first religion, when I could name more examples of older religions, Hinduism for one.

I don't believe that Judism is 5000 years old.

The earliest major religion after the flood was Zoroastrianism. It is the basis of Hinduism and Buddism and Taoism and ...........going and going and going.

And Saint4God is correct there are facts that have been tampered with.

I keep looking at this post, and am completely amused and baffled by the title.

My dad was a preacher. I have yet to see the church influence with absolute authority. Sure, I'm having to recover from the sins of my parents, but everybody does.

I have never discussed Christianity with anyone that didn't want to. Conversely, nobody's ever discussed Christianity with me unless I allowed them to.

Additionally, no one has ever held a gun to me and told me to believe in Christianity.

So on the subject of absolute power of Christianity, there is none in regards to anything being forced on someone that someone doesn't want.

Christianity is a matter of personal choice. If you want it, you decide, if not, then that is also your decision.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
I don't believe that Judism is 5000 years old.

Might have my numbers mixed up. May be closer to 4000, maybe 3500. The point is that Christianity is date as being started around 30AD. I'm unsure how therefore it predates much older religions.

The earliest major religion after the flood was Zoroastrianism. It is the basis of Hinduism and Buddism and Taoism and ...........going and going and going.

And all of these predate Christianity.

If God, the Christian God that is, predates everything, and is the beginning. Then why did all these polytheism religions pop up, like Hinduism, before the concept of monotheism and Christianity?

Originally posted by c3hamby
Additionally, no one has ever held a gun to me and told me to believe in Christianity.

They don't have to because they use their secret mass-mind control powers to brainwash you into believing...before you know it, instant sheeple with no memory or understanding of what has occurred only to be led to take over the world!

ATS points for using conspiracy buzzwords = 1,500!

By the way, kudos to your father who's taking the front line on an increasingly difficult job.



[edit on 13-12-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by c3hamby
Christianity is a matter of personal choice. If you want it, you decide, if not, then that is also your decision.

i did NOT get a choice in my earlier years
how many parents really give their children a choice with regards to religion?
how many families do not choose to indoctrinate their children?

as richard dawkins put it "whenever you hear someone say 'that is a muslim child' or 'that is a catholic child' it should be like fingernails on a chalkboard, because that is NOT a catholic child, it is the child of catholic parents" (quote may be a tiny bit off)

Originally posted by shaunybaby

Might have my numbers mixed up. May be closer to 4000, maybe 3500. The point is that Christianity is date as being started around 30AD. I'm unsure how therefore it predates much older religions.

I believe the area of 3500 would be correct.

If God, the Christian God that is, predates everything, and is the beginning. Then why did all these polytheism religions pop up, like Hinduism, before the concept of monotheism and Christianity?

Because after the earth was destroyed with a flood, Nimrod being possessed by Lucifer brought forth religion to keep the world from seeing the truth of the Messiah. That's why you have Zoroastrianism, Buddism, Taoism, Confucianism all come before Christianity. But the Christian God is the one and only God that created the universe.

Nimrod was Zoroaster (Not the Persian Zoroaster but the original one). Nimrod is also Marduk and Baal the sun god the bringer of light and many others.

The Hebrews came from Abraham who followed after the call of God. The Christians came from accepting the promised Messiah that the Jew was blinded to because they followed after the false gods.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by shaunybaby

Might have my numbers mixed up. May be closer to 4000, maybe 3500. The point is that Christianity is date as being started around 30AD. I'm unsure how therefore it predates much older religions.

I believe the area of 3500 would be correct.

can i get some citiations, everytime i've heard about the history of judaism (mainly from rabbis) abraham is placed around 2000 - 1500 BCE

Because after the earth was destroyed with a flood, Nimrod being possessed by Lucifer brought forth religion to keep the world from seeing the truth of the Messiah. That's why you have Zoroastrianism, Buddism, Taoism, Confucianism all come before Christianity. But the Christian God is the one and only God that created the universe.

Nimrod was Zoroaster (Not the Persian Zoroaster but the original one). Nimrod is also Marduk and Baal the sun god the bringer of light and many others.

The Hebrews came from Abraham who followed after the call of God. The Christians came from accepting the promised Messiah that the Jew was blinded to because they followed after the false gods.

alright, there are completely baseless assertions there, can i get evidence for

1) the whole nimrod thing, step by step
2) the existence of the flood
3) well, i'd ask you to back up the basics of religion, but that's a subject for another thread

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul


can i get some citiations, everytime i've heard about the history of judaism (mainly from rabbis) abraham is placed around 2000 - 1500 BCE

2000 to 1500 BC is agreeing with what we are saying. He was talking 4000 to 3500 years ago, which would be 2000 to 1500 bc.

alright, there are completely baseless assertions there, can i get evidence for

1) the whole nimrod thing, step by step
2) the existence of the flood
3) well, i'd ask you to back up the basics of religion, but that's a subject for another thread

The fact that religion came from Nimrid and Babylon is certainly not baseless. I don't really have time to lay it all out. It's like trying to show you the calculations to get a rocket to the moon and you haven't learned to add yet. There is too much ground to cover.

If you want to know the truth just poke around the timelines a little. Don't follow the breadcrumb trail that is left for you to find. Look at the inconsistencies.

Check out the dates of Zoroastrianism. You should find a problem if you look.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Because after the earth was destroyed with a flood, Nimrod being possessed by Lucifer brought forth religion to keep the world from seeing the truth of the Messiah. That's why you have Zoroastrianism, Buddism, Taoism, Confucianism all come before Christianity. But the Christian God is the one and only God that created the universe.

We come across a problem in your first sentence. You assume the flood was an historical event. This isn't proven, this is taken on faith.

I fail to see how the arguement that nothing predates Christianity could possibly stand-up, as there are many religions that predate it. Also religions that did not practice monotheism, so they could not have been worshipping the one Christian God. Examples of this would be Hinduism, ancient Egyptians and ancient Greeks, all practicing polytheism. All practicing their religions thousands of years before the birth of Christ.

The fact that these religions were around thousands of years before Christ existed, shows that religion is not a concept invented by Christianity, or even the Christian God. It's a man-made concept, a concept that started out most likely with beliefs that if it didn't rain and there was drought then you did something to upset the Gods. Many tribes who practice simple religion in places where our modern reach has yet to influence these people, are very superstitious. They'll make sure if they get a kill and are able to eat, that they thank the God/s. By looking at this untouched part of humanity, we can see a world and way of life that no longer exists for many of us. That's been their way of life for thousands of years. And they did not magically just appear in the jungle after a world-wide flood destroyed everything.

i did NOT get a choice in my earlier years
how many parents really give their children a choice with regards to religion?


How many parents give their kids a choice in ANYTHING?

My choice would have been to sleep late everyday, but they made me go to school.

If you're an adult, now you get to choose those things for yourself.

My philosophy of life is that we are born perfect. Our parents raise us the best they can, and we spend the rest of our life trying to get back to the womb and correct their mistakes.

My parents made me go to church when I was younger, but I choose not to go to church now. I have other things I do that meet my spirituality needs.

Originally posted by c3hamby
My choice would have been to sleep late everyday, but they made me go to school.

Those wretchedly mean people! They should be thrown in jail for infringing upon your rights as an individual to think what you want and do what you want. In addition, if you want candy, you should get candy in any quantity you desire even if it comes from that stranger in a car beconking you over but NO! You have to go by their OPINION of what is safe and good for you. We all know what's best for ourselves all the time especially when we're innocent little children. The government needs to dissolve and let us individuals do whatever we feel is right in our own eyes. Only then we will have universal peace and happiness.

P.S. God bless your parents

[edit on 14-12-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by shaunybaby

We come across a problem in your first sentence. You assume the flood was an historical event. This isn't proven, this is taken on faith.

How many hundreds of cultures have the story of a flood. When you can prove the inaccracy of one Biblical prophecy you have a starting point. Until then it would be advisable to take it as fact.

I fail to see how the arguement that nothing predates Christianity could possibly stand-up, as there are many religions that predate it.

I already told you why, read my post again.

Also religions that did not practice monotheism, so they could not have been worshipping the one Christian God.

They were not worshipping the Christian God.

Examples of this would be Hinduism, ancient Egyptians and ancient Greeks, all practicing polytheism. All practicing their religions thousands of years before the birth of Christ.

Right and all these religions can be tied to one source. All these religions come from Babylon.

The fact that these religions were around thousands of years before Christ existed, shows that religion is not a concept invented by Christianity, or even the Christian God.

Religion is not a concept invented by Chritianity.or the Christian God. You might try the deceiver.

It's a man-made concept, a concept that started out most likely with beliefs that if it didn't rain and there was drought then you did something to upset the Gods.

The concept comes from Babylon, man made under the direction of Lucifer.

Many tribes who practice simple religion in places where our modern reach has yet to influence these people, are very superstitious. They'll make sure if they get a kill and are able to eat, that they thank the God/s. By looking at this untouched part of humanity, we can see a world and way of life that no longer exists for many of us. That's been their way of life for thousands of years. And they did not magically just appear in the jungle after a world-wide flood destroyed everything.

Nope, no magic. They were dispersed across the world after the Tower of Bable. I wonder how many of the these ancient cultures have the serpent or Dragon in their cultures or religion. GEE, GO FIGURE.

Originally posted by c3hamby
i did NOT get a choice in my earlier years
how many parents really give their children a choice with regards to religion?

With regards to religion, not much choice. But I don't 'regret' believing in Santa Claus. I don't feel more stupid for believing in the Tooth Fairy. I just didn't know of anything else. But everyone soon learns that they're not real, and the concept of a fat guy in a red suit, big white beard, flying raindeer, doesn't actually deliver your presents all in one night.

It's wierd that we grow out of some things. But many don't ever grow out of religion. I guess Noah's Ark is just more plausable. As plausable as the world being held up by Atlas' shoulder. You wouldn't believe that today, so why would you believe in something like a Biblical flood, or the Adam & Eve story?

Originally posted by c3hamby
How many parents give their kids a choice in ANYTHING?

I can't stand indecision. Indecision is probably left over from people's childhood because they never made decisions. Lets see some impulsive decision making, people. Are you mad at religion, or mad at your parents? It seems more that you're mad at your parents.

Originally posted by c3hamby
My choice would have been to sleep late everyday, but they made me go to school.

And you would have grown up not knowing anything about the world you live in. Actually your parents didn't make you, the government did. It's actually the law that you have to go to school.

Originally posted by c3hamby
If you're an adult, now you get to choose those things for yourself.

So I guess you're going to bring up little atheist babies that don't go to school and make every single choice for themselves? So you'll 'make' them be atheists, just like your parents made you be religious, so you'd be doing exactly the same thing. Definitely an unresolved issue with your parents.

Originally posted by c3hamby
My philosophy of life is that we are born perfect. Our parents raise us the best they can, and we spend the rest of our life trying to get back to the womb and correct their mistakes.

As men we spend the rest of our lives trying to 'get back in'.. Amen to that brother.

Originally posted by c3hamby
My parents made me go to church when I was younger, but I choose not to go to church now. I have other things I do that meet my spirituality needs.

So was church really all that bad? I went to church sometimes, went to Christian youth groups, went to schools where we sung hyms and prayers. I don't blame the schools or my parents, that was part of my life, and it's a part of who I am now. I don't regret it. I also don't believe in any of it. If anything it helped me 'see' for myself what it was all about, it just didn't appeal to me.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
How many hundreds of cultures have the story of a flood.

All of them.. then again that stands to reason as there have been thousands of floods. The only world wide flood/s would've been at the end of the last ice age.. well before Moses' time.

When you can prove the inaccracy of one Biblical prophecy you have a starting point. Until then it would be advisable to take it as fact.

Why? it's scientifically impossible to fit all the species on the planet into a boat.. and it's been disproven. Not just scientifically but through common sense.

[edit on 14-12-2006 by riley]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
How many hundreds of cultures have the story of a flood. When you can prove the inaccracy of one Biblical prophecy you have a starting point. Until then it would be advisable to take it as fact.

All that suggests is that there were cultures that experienced localised flooding. How did they write about a flood if they're supposed to be destroyed in this biblical world-wide flood? If anything this shows that they were very much localised floods, and not neccesarily at the same time.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
They were not worshipping the Christian God.

I know, I didn't say they were. So what God/s were they worshipping?

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
The concept comes from Babylon, man made under the direction of Lucifer.

By Lucifer you mean The Devil? The big red guy in hell with horns and so on. And under his direction religion was invented by man. So you're saying The Devil actually inspired the first religion. Never heard that one before.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
Nope, no magic. They were dispersed across the world after the Tower of Bable. I wonder how many of the these ancient cultures have the serpent or Dragon in their cultures or religion. GEE, GO FIGURE.

Those poor Inuits really drew the short straw. I bet they wish they chose somewhere warmer.

I can't recall dragons or serpents in the Egyptian culture. Same goes for the Greeks, maybe there's a few mentioned in their myths and legends. But they concentrated on things like the sun, Ra, Apollo etc etc. Again you mention 'Tower of Babel' like it's a factual historic event. We need to move passed this, and the world-wide biblical flood, because hindering us from moving on and talking about historic fact.