The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Saint I can truly say that your communication style...well, just isn't there.

It appears you never get the point anyone says...even when they say you don't get the point.

You always come across as defensive...and commandeering people how to post.

If you loosen up...you may find out some things that are in front of you.

I have ignored you before due to the same attitude you display now.
Its hard to have a discussion with you...

And your warning me about rabbis...saint, you truly do not know me or my background...even if you did, I would still get the same comments based on your past track record.

Do you really want people to listen. This is serious. If you do, there is a way to communicate, and what appears to be a pushiness, on your end, ain't gonna win you friends. (If you have noticed, it hasn't. I know your not wanting to win friends, but what use is it talking if no one even wants to hear anymore what you have to say?)

But it is as it is.
Saint there is hope for you and how you communicate. (Though I can only imagine your response to this.)

peace

dAlen

- edit:

I will try one more time with you Saint, that is to communicate the point.
Forget the above, it doesn't matter you thoughts of me, what I know, don't know, how much you think I'm on or off topic...forget me.

The point is, Saint...do you really want to be a "saint for God"?
If so, you must learn how to talk to people. When people react negatively, its not because you have the truth and it blinds them in their darkness...its because they are annoyed...simply.

I beg of you, whoever you are, whatever you think you know about God...if you claim to be Christian, please read Paul's letters and study the style of Jesus...gentleness and love in speech...not defensiveness from fear, goes a long way.

I cannot expect you to get this as you already have a path set out in your mind...you may eventually get it, and these words may sound less threatening to you ...as slowly you realize Im not out to attack your character...not out to change you...not out to take your Jesus away.

Peace, and may you find peace, you truly seem upset most the time.
Im not sure that is an example that would lure anyone over to Jesus.

I cannot respond to your threads anymore, and I wish you would truly not answer mine as they typically are not to YOU. The only way to do this, is to have you on ignore, to help curb your desire and need to want to respond always to post, that dont want or benefit from the comments you add to them.

Peace again

dAlen

[edit on 21-1-2007 by dAlen]

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[edit on 4/2/2007 by Mirthful Me]

Originally posted by dAlen
Saint I can truly say that your communication style...well, just isn't there.

I care not about "style" and apologize if it is not aesthetically pleasing to you.

Originally posted by dAlen
It appears you never get the point anyone says...even when they say you don't get the point.

I think you're missing the point dAlen.

Originally posted by dAlen
You always come across as defensive...and commandeering people how to post.

I DO NOT! You should post like this... Hey, wasn't it you who as an issue with MY "style"?

Originally posted by dAlen
If you loosen up...you may find out some things that are in front of you.

Do share.

Originally posted by dAlen
I have ignored you before due to the same attitude you display now.

Apparently you have not ignored me.

Originally posted by dAlen
Its hard to have a discussion with you...

Likewise.

Originally posted by dAlen
And your warning me about rabbis...saint, you truly do not know me or my background...even if you did, I would still get the same comments based on your past track record.

Tell me more about my track record.

Originally posted by dAlen
Do you really want people to listen. This is serious. If you do, there is a way to communicate, and what appears to be a pushiness, on your end, ain't gonna win you friends.

I'm not pushy. Can you please put down the accusations for a moment so we could talk? Not interested in "making friends" here. There's a place called "myspace" for that. Votes don't make facts, puppy-patting things that are wrong doesn't reveal truth.

Originally posted by dAlen
(If you have noticed, it hasn't. I know your not wanting to win friends, but what use is it talking if no one even wants to hear anymore what you have to say?)

How many U2U's do I have? And, what do they say? Oh wait, you're speculating, aren't you?

Originally posted by dAlen
But it is as it is.

Indeed.

Originally posted by dAlen
Saint there is hope for you and how you communicate. (Though I can only imagine your response to this.)

And there is hope for eternal life for you as well my friend.

Originally posted by dAlen
I will try one more time with you Saint, that is to communicate the point.
Forget the above, it doesn't matter you thoughts of me, what I know, don't know, how much you think I'm on or off topic...forget me.

The point is, Saint...do you really want to be a "saint for God"?

It's not a want dAlen, it's a current occupation.

Originally posted by dAlen
If so, you must learn how to talk to people. When people react negatively, its not because you have the truth and it blinds them in their darkness...its because they are annoyed...simply.

This is not my issue so long as the information I'm providing is accurate. I don't care about "winning friends and influencing people" as you're advising here.

Originally posted by dAlen
I beg of you, whoever you are, whatever you think you know about God...if you claim to be Christian, please read Paul's letters and study the style of Jesus...gentleness and love in speech...not defensiveness from fear, goes a long way.

I read both on a regular basis. Please have an ounce of consideration and/or respect that perhaps I do so.

Originally posted by dAlen
I cannot expect you to get this as you already have a path set out in your mind...you may eventually get it, and these words may sound less threatening to you ...as slowly you realize Im not out to attack your character...not out to change you...not out to take your Jesus away.

Good, it's sad to see futile efforts.

Originally posted by dAlen
Peace, and may you find peace, you truly seem upset most the time.
Im not sure that is an example that would lure anyone over to Jesus.

Peace to you as well. I'm not trying to "lure anyone over to Jesus". I'm presenting an actionable way that one can come into a relationship with God themselves.

Originally posted by dAlen
I cannot respond to your threads anymore,

You've said that before.

Originally posted by dAlen
and I wish you would truly not answer mine as they typically are not to YOU.

Sorry friend, I'm not going to "sit down and shut up" when I hear something is inaccurate despite who they're to.

Originally posted by dAlen
The only way to do this, is to have you on ignore,

You've said that before too.

Originally posted by dAlen
to help curb your desire and need to want to respond always to post, that dont want or benefit from the comments you add to them.

Peace again

dAlen

To you as well.

[edit on 5-2-2007 by saint4God]

Oh Saint4God, your comments always brighten up my day, even on the most terrible day of the week, Monday. Nice retort by the way, and if you ever need someone to make you a new avatar, u2u me and I'll be glad to create a custom one from scratch.

Originally posted by Excitable_Boy
Christianity has NO power. What POWER does it have? Someone please explain this to me. Is religion about power? Because if it is, then it's wrong. But, all religion is wrong. There's something wrong with any Christian that wants POWER.

What do Christians do with their supposed power? I mean, I know in the past they used to kill indiginous peoples and commit genocide against people of other religions. What are they looking to do with their POWER today?

Does God want people to have power or faith?

This whole thread makes me sick!

"For we have not been the spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind' 2nd Timothy ...I believe that the power is over fear, hate and disbelief. I agree there is alot of misrepresentation in the christian realm, but that doesn't mean I follow them but I follow God. You can agree or disagree with me. We all free choice. True, many have claimed to kill in the name of christianity, but they are deceived, a true christian will love the Word of God, which also claims, 'only satan comes to KILL, STEAL and DISTROY, but Jesus came that we might have life and life more abundantly. We are commanded to love our enemies and those who persecute us. Why? we are not allowing the negative to have power over us. We are human and make mistakes, that is why Jesus came. If I could save myself I wouldn't have needed that sacrifice. This is once again my heart on the subject. We are all free to choose.

Hello,
I am new to this thread, and have not read the other million replies, only the very first that began this, so forgive me for any redundancy (I am already asking for forgiveness in a Christian thread, how quaint). I think the problem that people, and myself included, are having with the Ten Commandments in public places is that it doesn't seem open for other similar monuments of different religions. If you want your teachings available for everyone, as they are already in the MANY Christian bookstores and the vast selection of Christian books available at Borders, why not also erect a monument about the Dahmapada (BUddhist) or Tao Te Ching (Toaist) or Koran (Muslim) or Bagavad Gita (Hindu) or even Dianetics (Scientology). WHat Christians seem to want to see is their teachings only, and regard the other teachings as false/sin/whatever they seem to think. I would support a monument to the Ten COmmandments, and would even participate in erecting it (I am a sculptor) if my faves could be given equal oppurtunity. If your teachings are about love, which they are, why are the followers so aggressive (Crusades, and the current Jihad, for example) in spreading the "good news". The words are there for everyone, and people will get there if they want to. There is a smorgasbord of philosophy, and putting it in someone's face will really only work to inflame the rest of us.

I have read through some of these recent threads, and this bickering is juvenile. Two Christians fighting over Christ, like two brothers over a toy. You must be joking. Are you trying to out-faith each other? Prove that you can recite the Word better than the other? What is the point? If people of the same Faith cannot come together, how can you possibly spread The Word and bring Light and Peace to the world? I think the infighting among Christians is indicative of a breakdown in communication, faith, and even in Spirit. If you are "saved", why be so combative or defensive? If you really believe in what you say, or in what the Bible says, then the opinions of others should not even matter, you should be secure enough to brush it off and go about your day. But some of you continue to argue over- what? I cannot even understand your disagreements. Perhaps this shows an inherent flaw in the Teachings, and maybe another avenue should be pursued. There are many Teachings, and holding tight to only one is closing the mind and the heart.

Originally posted by junglejake

Stop forcing your beliefs on us

We've all heard it on here and in our day to day lives. Christianity, by being in the public square, is forcing its views on people. I find the use of the word "force" very interesting.

When people are saying that Christians having the Ten Commandments in the public square or sharing their faith is forcing their beliefs upon them, they're pretty much admitting Christianity is the Truth. If being exposed to it forces you to become a Christian, it must be the most powerful message ever to have been created (in my opinion, it is).

Jake, my comment to you would be that we as belivers in Christ are not under the Mosaic law nor the 10 commandments. It was a document such as a legal contract given to the ancient Hebrew (Jewish people).

It was also for the people of that day and thier children, no where are gentiles either required or commanded to keep the sabbath which is part of the 10 commandments.

So being that we are no longer under the law, the 10 commandments not being given to us anyhow, Jesus comming to fulfill the law, the new covenant etc. etc. your statement that Christians own the 10 commandments and it is for them is incorrect.

Dont get me wrong I am not saying we are not under Gods law (and mans law as well) but as Jesus summed it up on the sermon on the mount the basis for keeping all the commandments and fulfilling the entire law is to love. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

Saint: I appreciate your contributions to this thread and your seemingly tireless and well thought out posts and research. I do however want to point out one thing to you...

You are trying to offer by means of your testimony and various statistics etc. the proof that so many non-believers are searching for such as Prote. That is a commendable thing to do and we are instructed to spread the good word and so on.

But... I don't think you can ever offer the kind of tangible undenyable evidence they may be seeking in order to believe. Remember when you posted these scriptures earlier in this thread?

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." - Romans 3:22-24

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

One is required to have faith in order to find salvation through Christ. If you were somehow able to provide them with a undeniable form of evidence it would remove the need for faith would it not?

Therefore I dont think you should even try to provide the type of proof that you are being asked for as it doesnt exist in the capacity that they would be able to see and measure it and test it etc. However I think you are spot on with showing people the way through scripture.

I would be interested in talking to anyone about anything posted above or in this entire thread as yes I did take the time to go through it and read and consider what everyone has said/typed. (that took 3 weeks)

PS: I used to also think if you just explained to someone the gift of salvation they would certainly accept it. I have realized that is not the case, nor is merley refering them to the Bible to try to read and comprehend it with little or prior knowledge of it. The best you can do is chat with them about it, listen to them, try to explain it as well as you can for whatever stage you are in (in your own spirtual growth).

PSS: Still a very good post Jake I did take the time to read the entire thing! I think many Christians do think the 10 commandments were given to them and apply today because they are contained in the Bible. So removing them is like taking away something important to them.

Oh yea this is my first post so hello everyone!

Saint4God did you notice the max characters you can post now is only 4000 earlier I remember you being suprised there was a 10k limit.

Anyhow one thing that had bothered me (because I didnt fully understand it) about the Bible had been the topic of Pre-destination.

If you are not familiar I will put a verse or 2 here for reference...

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Romans 8:28-30 (in Context) Romans 8 (Whole Chapter)

Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

So anyhow does this mean God chose some people to be saved but no others? Why witness to anyone if God is going to pick and if they are pre-destined wont they choose to believe in him whether or not you talk to them because it is his will and it shall be done right? (this was my in-correct thinking in part, more to come here)

But the Bible also says this...

1 Timothy 2:3-5 (New International Version)

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

So why does he predestine some but not all? Well what are those who are predestined being predestined for? Just to believe and thats it? Just to be saved and leave it at that?

No they are predestined to be "to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers" basically they are used as messengers to the rest. (preachers, deacons, priests etc.)

Anyhow my old incorrect thinking was somehow that only those who were pre-destined were those who would hear the word and take it to heart and believe the message. Those who were not pre-destined would never come to believe no matter how convincing the argument for the faith.

I now believe all have the ability to be saved wheter or not God pre-destined or called you to work in the ministry say as a missionary or something.

Just thought I would share this as it finally makes sense to me and maybe this will help someone else out there contimplating this or any of these (from hitchickers guide)

"The Book: In the beginning, the Universe was created. This made a lot of people angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea. "

"Humma Kavula, Congregation: [singing] Oh mighty Arkleseizure, thou gazed from high above. And sneezed from out thy nostrils, a gift of bounteous love. The universe around us emerged from thy nose. Now we await with eager expectation, thy handkerchief, to bring us back to thee."

"Zaphod: Hello Humma.
Humma Kavula, Congregation: Let us pray. Oh mighty one, we raise our noses to you blocked and unblown, send the handkerchief O blessed one that we may be wiped clean.
Congregation: Atchoo!
Humma Kavula: Bless you. "

"The Book: It's an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, Man had always assumed that he was the most intelligent species occupying the planet, instead of the *third* most intelligent. The second most intelligent were of course dolphins. Dolphins had long known of the impending destruction of earth and had on many occasions tried to alert mankind but their warnings were mistakenly interpreted as amusing attempts to punch footballs or whistle for titbits. "

And one more for fun...

The Book: Curiously the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias, as it fell, was, "Oh no, not again." Many people have speculated that if we knew *why* the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now.

Originally posted by TheMayor
I would support a monument to the Ten COmmandments, and would even participate in erecting it (I am a sculptor) if my faves could be given equal oppurtunity.

Agreed. The Ten Commandments are not soley Christian however as any Orthodox Jew will attest I'm sure. The reason from what I understand is that they were the foundation of law, hence it being in front of a courthouse or government office. If you'd like to put Hammurabi's Code up there as a foundation of law, that too is a logical choice.

Originally posted by TheMayor
If your teachings are about love, which they are, why are the followers so aggressive (Crusades, and the current Jihad, for example) in spreading the "good news".

Who is the example of Christianity? It's followers? Is it Followerinity? No, rather Christ is the teacher and example for Christianity. Put the Crusades side-by-side with Christ's teachings and you may make the remarkable discovery that they are opposite of one another. Secondly, I don't know where Jihad is associated with Christianity. You'll have to provide some explanation for that association to make any sense.

Originally posted by TheMayor
I have read through some of these recent threads, and this bickering is juvenile.

Welcome to the club with your added "bicker" statements. There is value to discussion. If you cannot see that, then don't discuss.

Originally posted by TheMayor
Two Christians fighting over Christ,

What two Christians are fighting over Christ? Please be specific.

Originally posted by TheMayor
like two brothers over a toy. You must be joking. Are you trying to out-faith each other?

No brownie points for having more or less faith.

Originally posted by TheMayor
Prove that you can recite the Word better than the other?

Recitation too is pointless as Christ addresses.

Originally posted by TheMayor
What is the point? If people of the same Faith cannot come together, how can you possibly spread The Word and bring Light and Peace to the world?

People of the same faith do in fact come together. It's called "church". They should be doing the same outside of church as well.

Originally posted by TheMayor
I think the infighting among Christians is indicative of a breakdown in communication, faith, and even in Spirit.

The only claim of infighting I hear of are those who are not "in". Curious. Is it not?

Originally posted by TheMayor
If you are "saved", why be so combative or defensive?

There is not need for combat or defensiveness. This is merely a discussion.

Originally posted by TheMayor
If you really believe in what you say, or in what the Bible says, then the opinions of others should not even matter,

Opinions of others do not affect my evidence, but in helping others it is their opinion that is a factor. At the end of the day though, it is the facts that remain.

Originally posted by TheMayor
you should be secure enough to brush it off and go about your day.

My day does not pause because of anything on ATS.

Originally posted by TheMayor
But some of you continue to argue over- what? I cannot even understand your disagreements.

Please be specific, I'll do my best to explain.

Originally posted by TheMayor
Perhaps this shows an inherent flaw in the Teachings,

The flaw isn't in the teaching, but rather the comprehension thereof.

Originally posted by TheMayor
and maybe another avenue should be pursued.

You give up because you don't understand something? I'd recommend learning instead.

Originally posted by TheMayor
There are many Teachings, and holding tight to only one is closing the mind and the heart.

Hold to the teachings that are true. Then your feelings to not get swept, swayed, and crushed when the truths are uncovered. The mind and heart are tools for uncovering the truth, but not the truth in themselves.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
Saint: I appreciate your contributions to this thread and your seemingly tireless and well thought out posts and research.

Thank you, that's very kind of you to say

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
I do however want to point out one thing to you...

You are trying to offer by means of your testimony and various statistics etc. the proof that so many non-believers are searching for such as Prote. That is a commendable thing to do and we are instructed to spread the good word and so on.

But... I don't think you can ever offer the kind of tangible undenyable evidence they may be seeking in order to believe.

You are absolutely correct.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
Remember when you posted these scriptures earlier in this thread?

"This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." - Romans 3:22-24

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

One is required to have faith in order to find salvation through Christ. If you were somehow able to provide them with a undeniable form of evidence it would remove the need for faith would it not?

Also completely true.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
Therefore I dont think you should even try to provide the type of proof that you are being asked for as it doesnt exist in the capacity that they would be able to see and measure it and test it etc.

I think this is where we may disagree. I will always try help others obtain the proof that they need if the only way they will believe is via that proof. I say this as a former skeptic on God, where I would not believe unless I saw. Once I saw, I knew that seeing was possible. I also recognize that I'm not more special or better than anyone else. Erego, others too may see and believe. Christ gave Thomas visual evidence...even to the touch. Christ opened the eyes of the blind, literally speaking. He cured the lame, the sick, even brought a dead man to life. People saw these things and believed.

Having said that, I agree on the part you'd stated about capacity. IF they MUST receive proof on their own terms where they can see, measure, test, and re-demonstrate to others, then I do think this is very unlikely to occur due to God being God will establish the proofs among them according to God's terms and conditions.

You may be right, I may have the wrong "angle" for a lot of people. But I can name 3 on ATS off the top of my head where it was the right angle for them. Even 1 I would consider a success, though it was not by me they had achieved it. All I did was walk with them along the way.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
However I think you are spot on with showing people the way through scripture.

If I'm on point with that, then I'm more than happy

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
PS: I used to also think if you just explained to someone the gift of salvation they would certainly accept it. I have realized that is not the case, nor is merley refering them to the Bible to try to read and comprehend it with little or prior knowledge of it. The best you can do is chat with them about it, listen to them, try to explain it as well as you can for whatever stage you are in (in your own spirtual growth).

I agree and am looking forward to your contributions as well. Maybe I can learn some things from you to be more effective.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
Oh yea this is my first post so hello everyone!

Welcome to ATS!

[edit on 20-2-2007 by saint4God]

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
Saint4God did you notice the max characters you can post now is only 4000 earlier I remember you being suprised there was a 10k limit.

That's what it says at the bottom of my screen as I type this. I don't remember if I spent some kind of ATS points for that ability.

Regarding pre-destination, we could probably start (or continue) a thread to another 100 pages. It's just that fun of a topic . The Bible quotes you have here are right on, but I'm going to truncate and highlight what you've concluded to expand upon the meaning:

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
I now believe all have the ability to be saved...

for the simple fact that God wants all to be saved. That's what He wants, it says it in print. Are all saved? No, as stated by the Book. So we have a division between what God wants and what God does. Why? The answer is because He loves us, and wants us to love Him. He does not rule with an iron fist but provides and opportunity for us to come to Him. After all, it was us in the first place that broke off the relationship with Him.

Secondarily. Why would Christ tell all who believed to "go and tell the good news" if it had no effect? Does God like sending people on pointless exercises?

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
The Book: Curiously the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias, as it fell, was, "Oh no, not again." Many people have speculated that if we knew *why* the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the Universe than we do now.

Hitchhiker's Guide is my favorite fiction books . I disagree with his religious views but Douglas Adams is a wholly remarkable author. My favorite one was Mostly Harmless and did include my favorite character - Random.

[edit on 20-2-2007 by saint4God]

I am not sure how to break up entire qoutes on here as you do to address the conversation point by point but I will attempt to do so.

Saint
"I think this is where we may disagree. I will always try help others obtain the proof that they need if the only way they will believe is via that proof."

I think my point here was just that your proof may not be proof enough for another skeptic. They would have to believe and put faith in your testimony that deals with an experience outside of something that can be referenced in the word.

Saint
"I say this as a former skeptic on God, where I would not believe unless I saw. Once I saw, I knew that seeing was possible. I also recognize that I'm not more special or better than anyone else. Erego, others too may see and believe. Christ gave Thomas visual evidence...even to the touch. Christ opened the eyes of the blind, literally speaking. He cured the lame, the sick, even brought a dead man to life. People saw these things and believed."

I agree with the above that miracles did indeed happen and were recorded but as for today... Miracles are a tricky thing.

2 Corinthians 12:12
The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance.

Miracles were performed by Christ and by his apostles I dont recall any being preformed by mere followers or disciples.

1 Corinthians 13

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

We see here that prophecies will cease, tounges will cease, and knowledge will pass away. When does this all happen?

When will we earth experience similar miracles being performed again?

2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 (New International Version)

8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

Your own account of the supernatural leads me to believe it is the former here that appeared to you as evidence. And while this may be exactly what you needed to turn and accept your savior it may not be right for others to hear about.

Saint
"Having said that, I agree on the part you'd stated about capacity. IF they MUST receive proof on their own terms where they can see, measure, test, and re-demonstrate to others, then I do think this is very unlikely to occur due to God being God will establish the proofs among them according to God's terms and conditions."

Agreed! But if they do accept him by comming to the conclusion that the message is indeed true then I would argue that they would become the proof themselves. Hence they could "see the proof" in thier own change of heart and life, they can measure up to God, and they can re-demonstrate thier testimony to others as you have been doing here.

Saint
"You may be right, I may have the wrong "angle" for a lot of people. But I can name 3 on ATS off the top of my head where it was the right angle for them. Even 1 I would consider a success, though it was not by me they had achieved it. All I did was walk with them along the way."

Perhaps I stand corrected then, even one would be a sucess but 3 is

Originally posted by toolmaker

Monkeyboy is dead on.

Christianity is evolving into a Political force. Faith in God is being manipulated into votes at the polling booth, and people are confusing salvation and God with political power and conservatism. they have become the Sheep, ready for shearing.

Ironic, that the mad rush toward salvation may end up damning them in the end.

I'd just like to put a point here. What he is mainly talking about is American, and mainstream, christianity. It's not limited to the US though, because we have politicians here who claim to be Christian, but they don't live it.

In my church we aren't remotely political (and are non-domininational in that we aren't Catholics or can be classed as mainstream Protestant either), and in fact have had run-ins with 'christians' in the local council because we want to promote proper social interaction such has helping the homeless, breaking down sectarian barriers etc. I can't provide any written proof, but recently we were in talks to get a new building because ours is falling down (not literally, but needs work). Anyway, the deal fell through and we later found out that a sectarian organisation had a hand in it. Of course the fact the some of the council members belonged to the group wasn't lost on us.

Edit: I didn't realise this thread was so big when I quoted! I was only on the first page!

[edit on 21/2/07 by jimboman]

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
I am not sure how to break up entire qoutes on here as you do to address the conversation point by point but I will attempt to do so.

Sorry about that. I've gotten messages that it's irritating to some but helpful to others. The reason why is because I prefere dialogue over speeches.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
I think my point here was just that your proof may not be proof enough for another skeptic. They would have to believe and put faith in your testimony that deals with an experience outside of something that can be referenced in the word.

I hope no-one merely puts belief or faith in my testimony alone. I'd consider that "spiritual laziness" that would change with the tide. Rather, I'd hope it would peak their interest enough to obtain their own experiences. This can be gotten by going to God directly and speaking with Him. If a person is not on speaking terms with Him or needs a little help on how, I think that's where I'd be more of a help. Certainly have a good point, just trying to clarify my position.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
I agree with the above that miracles did indeed happen and were recorded but as for today... Miracles are a tricky thing.

We've trained ourselves not to see them. We use words like "I got lucky", but many do not know "luck" is from a different religion entirely. A little digging into luck will reveal the source and one can test luck to see if it is the source of these occurences. They are not luck, but will encourage others to get the proof of this themselves.

Here's another fun word: chance. Sounds very scientific, but when you put chance to the test, it too fails. Why? Chance is dependent on probability, which also can be tested. How many improbables must occur before the model breaks down?

I'm not saying miracles are a process of elimination by any means, nor should we attribute all events as miracles, rather once investigating miracles and learning how to see them, they're not hidden at all. In fact, they're there all the time. We've just trained ourselves not to see them.

I'm glad you brought this up. It's an entirely relevant part of this discussion, bringing around some deeper considerations.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
2 Corinthians 12:12
The things that mark an apostle—signs, wonders and miracles—were done among you with great perseverance.

Miracles were performed by Christ and by his apostles I dont recall any being preformed by mere followers or disciples.

It would be a mistake to attribute any miracle by any mere person. I'm not proposing this. Miracles are solely done by the will of God for the benefit of us.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
We see here that prophecies will cease, tounges will cease, and knowledge will pass away. When does this all happen?

God only knows.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
When will we earth experience similar miracles being performed again?

They are happening right now. We could go into greater detail here or by U2U, whichever you feel is more appropriate. U2U lets me be more personal about these things, as nobody cares to hear the details of our lives via broadcast (even though I'd done so by documenting just some miracles a page or two ago). Rather, they want to hear how they themselves and achieve similar results.

I have a question that appears not to be related, but it is an appropriate illustration. Suppose you asked to borrow someone else's homework, copied it letter for letter, then put your name on the top and turned it in. Upon finding out, do you think the person who let you borrow it would let you do it again?

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
Your own account of the supernatural leads me to believe it is the former here that appeared to you as evidence. And while this may be exactly what you needed to turn and accept your savior it may not be right for others to hear about.

It is true I got evidence of Satan first and therefore turned to God to get away. I don't expect anyone to believe it so I typically don't include my testimony in these discussions. It's not my central focus in helping others, but I cannot deny what happened. I agree it would not be right to use this experience as a piece of "compelling evidence".

It's the first time I'd seen my experience paralleled with scripture though, so I appreciate that. It's very comforting

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
Agreed! But if they do accept him by comming to the conclusion that the message is indeed true then I would argue that they would become the proof themselves. Hence they could "see the proof" in thier own change of heart and life, they can measure up to God, and they can re-demonstrate thier testimony to others as you have been doing here.

Yes, and for those who attend church this is probably true. But, ATS is a group of skeptics, much like myself. As a fellow skeptic, I could not expect solely the Word or testimony to be enough incentive to say "yes, I believe". If I'm wrong, great! I'd be gladly wrong, but I think you may find on the discussions several demonstrations showing this conclusion is correct.

Looking forward to a reply if you'd like to do so. I feel like we're getting somewhere on the thread now instead of rehashing old arguments.

[edit on 21-2-2007 by saint4God]

I think you have stepped back, taken constructive criticism, thought about it, applied it, and hopefully this will be an encouragement to you as that is really what I wanted to do here.


As you said we may be trained not to see them (miracles) and until your eyes are opened to the truth they will probably be blinded by the light...

Or what you are calling miracles another believer may call it God answers prayers (without necessarily doing miracles).

Miracles were only effective for some of the people some of the time it appears.

Nehemiah 9:17
They refused to listen and failed to remember the miracles you performed among them. They became stiff-necked and in their rebellion appointed a leader in order to return to their slavery. But you are a forgiving God, gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and abounding in love. Therefore you did not desert them,



In fact eventually miracles will be used to lead many astray...

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.


I have no doubt that God answers prayer. Wheter he does it through miracles or not would be up to debate as we have seen even those living in his day and age who quickly forgot about the miracles they have seen.

He did however do miracles to prove his divinity to those around him whilst he was on earth (in the flesh).

Acts 2:22
"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

But why would a believer need an actual miracle since they already believe? I guess it could strengthen your faith...

I would say miracles like the gift of tounges were a sign used not for believers but for un-believers.

Anyhow its a mute point for the most point I just wanted to give you another viewpoint and what little insight I have to offer.

Now hopefully not to discredit anything I have said and not to stray too far off topic but if I could offer proof of the evidence of aliens would anyone be interested? (in another thread I suppose)

PS: Your homework analogy I would say no, once the gig was up they wouldnt allow for you to plagerize thier work again. But I think I missed whatever point you were trying to drive home with that analogy.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
I think you have stepped back, taken constructive criticism, thought about it, applied it, and hopefully this will be an encouragement to you as that is really what I wanted to do here.

Surely, and I appreciate it too.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
As you said we may be trained not to see them (miracles) and until your eyes are opened to the truth they will probably be blinded by the light...

Or what you are calling miracles another believer may call it God answers prayers (without necessarily doing miracles).

Perhaps, but, I don't see how or why we'd would or should take God for granted like that. Of course He answers prayers and we can trust them, but when someone receives something so exceedingly, astoundingly wonderful, I don't think we should brush it off as, "yep, just God. Answering another prayer" *golf clap*. Of course I'm taking the example to the extreme, but if we show God a little love for what He does we may see more of it.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
Miracles were only effective for some of the people some of the time it appears.

Certainly. And you're on point with the scripture references. Nicely done with that. When I quote scripture I get barked at here.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
In fact eventually miracles will be used to lead many astray...

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and miracles to deceive the elect—if that were possible.

This is true. Fortunately you and I as believers have access to a litmus test to determine if it comes from God or is a mere "magic trick" to deceive us. 1 John gives details.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
I have no doubt that God answers prayer. Wheter he does it through miracles or not would be up to debate as we have seen even those living in his day and age who quickly forgot about the miracles they have seen.

I will firmly state He does perform them because I am now alive. If He did not, I would be dead. That was only one of many, but as you'd mentioned before, my testimony is not sufficient evidence for others nor would I want it to be. BUT! I can say without waivering doubt that this is true.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
He did however do miracles to prove his divinity to those around him whilst he was on earth (in the flesh).

Yes. Also the Book states greater miracles will come (and they have, are, and will). Do you not believe this to be so?

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
But why would a believer need an actual miracle since they already believe? I guess it could strengthen your faith...

Maybe the miracle is not for the believer. I tend not to pray for myself very much, I'm pretty well set. It's others who do not know Him or those who are losing touch with Him that need the miracles...and it's fabulous to see it happen before your eyes. When something happens to me, yippee hurray. But, when something happens for someone else who so desperately needs it, there are not words to describe it.

Miracles are gifts from God as He choses to give them. I do not question God when miracle occurs, that's not what's on a person's mind. Rather, showing thanks and gratitude for the remarkable work He'd done. Miracles are not earned or deserved. You feel that right away too, humbled by the whole experience.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
I would say miracles like the gift of tounges were a sign used not for believers but for un-believers.

Another interesting topic we could fill a hundred pages talking about. Talking in tongues has never occurred to me so I would be a poor representative to speak about it. To me, there's a flaw in the logic, but will reserve that for another thread or if anyone has specific interest in the matter.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
Anyhow its a mute point for the most point I just wanted to give you another viewpoint and what little insight I have to offer.

Sure and I'm excited to have this kind of dialogue. It's getting into the deeper details that is most interesting for me.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
Now hopefully not to discredit anything I have said and not to stray too far off topic but if I could offer proof of the evidence of aliens would anyone be interested? (in another thread I suppose)

Certainly. If you're drawing parallels, then here would be an appropriate forum. But, if it seems like a different topic entirely without connections, then maybe a separate thread would be more appropriate.

Originally posted by tnt3kgt
PS: Your homework analogy I would say no, once the gig was up they wouldnt allow for you to plagerize thier work again. But I think I missed whatever point you were trying to drive home with that analogy.

Not at all! In fact you're right on the exact point. If then you were God and you'd given someone a miracle, then told everyone it was one of the following: luck, chance, your own cleverness or physical prowess, would you be inclined to give another?

Conversely, if you were God and gave someone a miracle, then they told everyone they knew about the wonderful God you are, would you be inclined to give another?

Taking the example even further. There are those in the brink of disaster/death who made wonderful swearing of oaths, allegiance, and promises of ministry to God should they find rescue in a situation only to turn away from all these things and attibute it to other fortunes. It can also be found examples of those who said they would tell in due credit of this rescue and have done so. Of the two, who do you think would receive additional miracles?

This has nothing to do with ego, credit, or repayment (of which we could never ever repay), but it does have everything to do with the relationship dynamics of love. Appreciation is one part of love. Keeping to our word is another (trust).

[edit on 22-2-2007 by saint4God]

In my humble opinion one really should mention which Christianity they espouse to believe in, thersus who conspired to hijack Christianity and succeed in doing so.

When I was a teenager and only beginning to loose my faith in organized religion and scripture as the word of God one of the thinged by Paul of Tarsus, AKA Saul. Christ and the Christianity he taught to his chosen and publicly acknowledged disciples and those to whom he preached was about love and peace and communism, acceptance of all who came to Him seeking God who willing to follow his instructions, humility, etc.

Instead of being publicly acknowledged by Christ as a chosen apostle we have only Paul's word that Christ chose him to be an apostle. Instead of espousing a Christianity in perfect accord with the teachings and example of Jesus Paul turned Christianity toward a more harsh and judgmental path. A perfect example of this is that while Jesus was a pioneer in the respect he showed and dignity he accorded women Paul was a shameless misogynist. We have only the word of Paul that he was chosen by God to write God's word for man. So great was the conflict between Paul's brand of Christianity and that taught by Jesus prior to his crucifixion there was much animosity, open conflict and even outright rejection between Paul and several of the disciples chosen and publicly acknowledged by Christ.

I quickly learned that long before I, much less my poorly defined misgivings about this and other problems with the Bible existed, others had delved very very deeply into this and other problems with the Bible where I only scratched the surface.

Please note also that without the condemnation of the sex despising Paul (better to marry than to burn, indeed!) the only Biblical rejections of homosexuality with which I am familiar are the Old Testament passages which cite eating of shellfish, wearing of mixed fabrics, etc. and homosexuality as abominations. I haven't noticed Jerry Falwell or others of his ilk picketing Red Lobster for serving shrimp or Wal-Mart for selling cotton polyester blend shirts. This is not a self serving observation. I am a heterosexual father of two.

I still sometimes read the Bible but usually only Psalms and other parts I consider to be stunningly great literature as well as the red letter (reportedly the words of Christ) passages of the three Gospels menti


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Okay, I've heard the claims above that there was a massive split between what Paul taught and what Christ taught, now let's see the proofs.

I do understand a bit of what you're saying because at first I was wary of the things Paul says. But, what's remarkable is that most of what Paul says can be related directly back to what Christ says in a kind of mirroring approach. How do you know if someone is a good student? When you can see the teacher through him. I believe there's good reason why the four accounts of Christ are before Paul's writings. Learn Christ, then read Paul. Check 'em. Is Paul right? After all, it was Paul who said, "Test everything. Hold on to the good." (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
If you cannot see the teacher through the student, then there's cause for concern. It seems the pieces that people have issue with Paul are when he uses the word "I". Rightfully so, I think. If you have this instinct, I think you're doing very well discerning mortal thought from God's spoken words. When Paul says "I" he's not speaking for Christ, rather using his mind to formulate a best course of action. This is similar to a pastor, priest, minister, reverend making the same decisions about their own churches. Decisions have to be made, anyone in a position of leadership understands that. Can you parallel Paul with any other pastor, priest, minister, or reverend? Surely. Can you parallel Paul with Christ? Not at all. Most Christians I know have read and understood that.

[edit on 23-2-2007 by saint4God]