The Absolute Power of Christianity!

During this time I wondered perhaps maybe the enemy was playing both sides of the fence, luring me into a false sense of security for the next strike etc.

Who do you think the enemy is?

I'd learned though, through addition experience and study what the problems of this would be. For example, why would anyone wishing to dominate drive me away?

huh! Who was trying to dominate you? Who was driving you away? Is this a specific detail issue?

No worries, it's a lot and is difficult to describe. Before this happened, I would refuse anyone who would make such seemingly absurd statements.

So you agree that some of these statements may appear absurd to a non Christian? Why would the truth be absurd? Unless it wasn't the truth.

It probably seems like giant assumptive leaps, I can understand that. But when you're living it, it's a lot more step-wise. I'm trying to cram 15+ years into a sentence...and it just doesn't work well that way.

I see. Just to play devil's advocate (excuse the pun), if I told myself something for 15 years, how ingrained would that become? Have you ever seen these American Idol type TV shows. I love the auditions at the beginning where you get these youngsters that come in and sing so badly, it makes you cringe. The look of absolute genuine disbelief on their faces when they are told they are rubbish is a sight to behold. Ever since they were 3 and told to sing in front of aunty clare and aunty susan, they've been told how wonderful they are. The family has overly supported and heaped misplaced praise on them since they were young and they are so bad it's side splittingly hilarious. The power of suggestion is simply AWESOME, I would urge you to watch Derren Brown's "The Heist", I will try and post a link if I can. Using simple techniques, you can make people do things that would astonish you.

Even if you had some amazing experience, you immediately decide that you have communicated with our creator. Do you realise how big that is?
Nono, I did not DECIDE to whom I was communicating. That's just the thing. I didn't go to the spirit-world deli and say "hmmm...that looks like what I want, I'll take that". On the contrary. Facts existed, the only decision I had to make was to accept or reject it.

But you pleaded for him to come and save you and he did. If he came to you as a result of your plead, YOU instigated the "meeting". Therefore, your statement needs revising. Facts existed, but those facts are that you are holding a ball, you drop it, and it hangs in mid air. Our difference of opinion is that because it hangs in mid air and has a low probability, does not mean that the only conclusion you can draw is that it hangs as a result of divine intervention.

I am coming to understand that proof of God may be as a result of many such experiences but your math is out but we'll come back to that.

There are some facts that are very uncomfortable that I had to come to terms with...but such is the way in reality. I can hope and wish all I want there is no war in the world, but the truth is war exists. I can either turn off the tv news about it or I can watch it with intent interest in finding out what's going on.

What does God have to do with war, for you? You mean the old chestnut about if there was a benevolent God, why would there be wars? that sort of thing? That's an interesting subject to hear from your perspective. What other things did you struggle with?

... um...yeah, that's the hope. And thank you for the compliment. Perhaps it would help if I gave the history between me and The Bible. I used to hate the Book. Seriously. I'd get very angry because it didn't seem to make any sense. By the second or third line reading it, I'd get angry and throw the Book.

Wow. I've never thrown it. It does make me angry though, I agree it makes no sense. That's part of the problem and a major flaw in the marketing strategy. I have been around for a few years now and I know or have met very few church goers in all those years. I think the two are linked.

Post-God discovery, I was directed back to the Book. I didn't want to go there. But, apparently I was asking a lot of questions that had already been answers. Voila! Indeed I was. I even bumped scripture up with God. "Hey God! Says here that this and this and this. Did some guy add that in? I don't get it". Within days or weeks, I got got it through the mechanism He wished to communicate it. Sometimes I felt like a real idiot for not seeing it before, but was grateful to get the solution to that which for me was a puzzle.

We're touching on another area here. One of the things I am trying to grasp is what do you get from being a christian that you don't get from not being one? In response to your statement here, I would be interested to learn about the puzzles or dilemmas the Bible has helped you solve. No circumstance exists that you don't have the ability to cope with, you just have to learn how. No scriptures, no pain, none of the downsides, just peace.

How would an atheist get from his original state to being a practising christian?, or any other religion for that matter.
I am totally into these questions. They're wonderfully complex and deep. I don't think I've been this activated like this in quite some time. I cannot speak to any other religions since they were a "no show" when I'd invited them to the party, nor do I have any need/desire to defend them.

Again, you reinforce the notion that you were the instigator, you chose to believe, to submit and perceived a response.

I've found God to be magnificiently creative and effective in His ability to soften the hearts of even a murder. If you asked me to do the same, despite my technique, I would fail miserably. In fact, I fail miserably to soften the hearts of people at all! I can use tricks like empathy, sympathy, persuasion and such but that only penetrates the surface for a very short while. God on the other-hand in a moments notice can reach down so far and make such a huge change that it affects their forever. Wow! THAT is absolute power!

But you describe it as absolute submission.

[edit on 28/9/06 by Prote]

By what mechanism does He do this? Probably different per person but I'll tell you the one He used for me. He let me have what I asked for knowing full well that when I get it I'd hate it.

Are you able to disclose what it was you wanted? and got.

In effect, "This is what you want instead of Me? Go for it." And I did, and I paid. What I wanted looked at me and said, "You need to see to belive? Here I am, now worship me".

He told you to worship him? is that right?

When I saw it for what it was and refused, that's when I ran to God and gave Him the reigns.

Where was he? How did you get to him?

"God, I know I can't do this without you, I've tried.

I don't mean to appear rude but this is simply not true. I know it wouldn't have felt like it at the time but even those who successfully take thier own life had it somewhere within them to make a difference. Some we will lose simply through numbers and some will not be gotten to in time, some will not be counselled correctly but everyone has it, somehwere, you just need to find it. Some need intervention, in your case it was divine, in my experience, it is not, it is a simple (but sometimes lengthy) process as each experience has it's complexities, but God is elusive. Faith is not.

However, I understand that your path could also have found you solice in your hour of need, perhaps this saved you and you should rightly hold your faith in the regard that you do. I can't escape from some of the other issues though that are not so hearlfelt, sincere and pure. Perhaps I hold a mild resentment because I have had to carefully unstitch a nasty web of ingrained, self-destructive religious programming from someone close.

On the contrary, he has not ever come to give you a helping hand in the way you expected. Firstly, we have to stop expecting things to happen our way and let Him make things happen His way in our lives. U2U for detailed discussion. Much too long of a tangent for here.

Are you saying that God controls what I do or intervenes? like he does with you? I just don't know it, or accept it?

and the notion that the creator of our universe would pick me up and dust me down is bizarre.
Hehe, sounds that way yes.

Glad you agree.

Not only that instance, but recurring instances (see miracles and probabilities)

A quick note about your probabilities. I'm no math major either but first, your post was selling me the idea that you were being conservative in your numbers when demonstraing a miracle. You used a lottery example with odds of 1 billion to 1 on winning and then went on to multiply this, not once but twice, to show how big the number is you get on winning the lottery 3 times. Therefore it's a miracle.

Well, my lottery here covers 60 million people and the odds of winning are 14 million to 1. Your starting number (before multiplying) was 1 billion. Thats a HUGE difference. Now when you multiply it through (using the correct subsequent multiplying factors), you reach a number that is about a dozen or more digits less than your 'conservative' estimate. So, much less of a miracle. Even so, how many events with such probabilities happen on such a regular basis? How often has someone won the lottery 3 times?

Then you still have to make giant leaps. One that it wasn't random chance. Improbable, yes, impossible, never. Two that it simply wasn't rigged, three that you rule out every possible alternative and arrive at the conclusion that not only was it a miracle, not by a human hand, not by an aliens hand, not by any other hyper dimensional beings hand but by the very hand of God himself, the creator of the universe, life and everything. And he chooses to personally save various humans (or all) on this planet........no, it's all too much. It's that missing link that I can never achieve unless I commit. Right?

Hang on, thats Scientology. Seriously though, perhaps I can put this without running off on a rant.

Using your ball scenario again. Seeing the stationary ball in mid air, I can make a slightly less gigantic leap of faith and accept that some kind of intervention has taken place. So, here I am. Now the question becomes, what is the force behind the intervention? Because I don't know what it is, I may assume some kind of energy or some kind of being perhaps, maybe a combination, who knows. To assume either one is another leap so that's two smaller leaps rather than one giant one....with me so far?

However, I still have not arrived at the conclusion that the force is God. I have made two small leaps of faith already to to further speculate that the energy/being behind the force is God requires leap number 3. 3 small leaps = one gigantic one (you got the formula here first, Nobel prize here I come).

When I break it down like this, I would be prepared to take some of those steps. But not all. How many balls defying the laws of physics would it take for someone to conclude that God exists? It varies, obviously.

Let me throw this out there. Why would the force behind the ball not be my dead father helping me out or any other passed relative or even an ancestor? a guardian angel? an alien? simply something we can't understand?

You believe in the Devil?
Does a person need to believe if they've already seen? Discussion for U2U, off topic here.

I'll leave that to you then.

I don't know what all branches entails

I should keep a list of points of confusion and start another thread. This is another one. branches. Off topic?

but I can say Christ spoke to the Devil, so if you follow Christ, you should know the Devil too exists.

I suppose once you've leapt once, you leap again. and again...



[edit on 28/9/06 by Prote]

I'm glad to hear it had brought you rescue, though am not sure why it's a surprise. I'm good for it though and will talk more about it if you like.

Perhaps. It goes in hand with what I was saying about inner strength. It's probably not difficult to fill in the gaps.

This makes me think you really aren't sure.
I will never stake claim to know all the ways God moves and communicates.........I can however, direct you to One who does have all the answers.

You mean God? Do you?

All hypothesis are an assumption until testing. Once testing they become validated. That validation changes hypothesis into law. This is the heart of the scientific method. Now I don't think someone can prove God through the scienfic method but you can apply the principles to help understand God. I agree though that we should not make false assumption,

Yes. But you aren't following this, again, ball analogy, your God theory falls at validation. You are receiving false validation. As I have already pointed out, that the ball didn't drop is validation only that something you don't understand is afoot. To validate to yourself that the almighty wants to play with the ball is an entirely different kettle of fish altogether. I know you know it.

I concede, that you state you cannot prove God through the scientific method but it demonstrates the point of both. There's a lot of get out clauses isn't there?

but am trying to template a mechanism for trust.

A valiant effort but no cigar. Not easy.

So let's say God created the system. Why would you then assume that he is in control of the ball?
Is that different than assuming it will fall before it does?

Yes.

We describe gravity but cannot see it. Such is true with God as well.

You can observe the effects of gravity. Yeah, yeah, you can observe the effects of God. Well, of course, I haven't witnessed anything so can't readily agree. Everyone can see the effects of Gravity, no training, no conditioning, no committing, accepting, forgiving, damnation just plain old here it is, this is gravity, this is what it is and this is how we understand it to work. Chalk and cheese.

OK, so God created Gravity. That's still ok, it still doesn't prove he is in control of the ball, only in control of the created system, which in this case is gravity.
True, but what's your explanation for the ball hanging in the air? Gravity says it should fall. Miracle example.

See previous responses. I gave plenty of alternatives simply to demonstrate to you how I am unable to make the same leaps you have. That's OK, We all have different levels of proof and you are 15 years ahead of me and by the sounds of things, have witnessed many incredible things. Miracle? We can argue semantics but not for me. I would like to look up real life examples of occurences defying the probabilities you mentioned near the top of this page. (or previous)

Faith requires a momentary trust that there's something greater than mankind's thinking/understanding.

I agree with the sentiment but hardly a momentary trust. You gave yourself, completely, entirely, wilfully, eternally, based on an experience I will never know. I am fully aware of what may be greater than mankind skulking around the universe, but these lessons can be taught and learned without all the perifery excess baggage that surrounds most faiths.

My next question is how many of these occurrences have to happen before there is some kind of curiosity towards what is going on in the grand scheme of things?

This is your ball analogy again. I think I asked you the same question. conclusion: it varies. (I think, boy, these posts are long)

I'm leaving out an important element in these examples. Supposing the hovering of that ball saved someone's life when they were certain to die.

I don't think that changes much. Some kind of intervention would be more obvious here but who or what and more importantly, Why? God? I don't think so. It could never be ruled out but neither can lots of things, that's the problem. I have an idea, a concept, of God. He's very different to yours but the paths are similar, believe it or not. The technique, application and perception is what differs. We both have faith.

I believe (my opinion) is that faith is proportional to the amount of evidence necessary to be compelling. Using myself as an example. I was (and to some degree still am, just not as much) weak in faith because I require constant proofs. I keep chalking things up to "chance" when by probability it has been disproven time and time again.

How do you disprove a probability, chance? Everything has a probability. It doesn't matter how many zeros your chosen event(s) have, they can, will and do happen. The chances of anything coming from Mars were a million to one, they said. Not much really, is it?

I'd say skeptic yes, but cynic no. Cynics have an aim to destroy, whereas skeptics have the aim to be shown. As a skeptic myself, I can certainly understand where you're coming from.

I think I flit from cynic to skeptic and back again.

Never hurts to learn I think, the trouble is committing without knowing why and/or to something potentially dangerous.

I don't intend to commit to anything. I can't claim to hold any level of balance on any subject if I don't engage it. My posts may not show it but you have helped me progress my 'project' immensly, I hope that continues.

I'm not a fan of numbers telling me how to think and act. They're a useful tool to make sense of the environment at times, but I'm more concerned about the truth than polls or tallies.

Oh no! I just thanked you too and then you say this. You have used numbers as one means of proof for the existence of miracles and thus, God. The miracles take you through a series of conclusions and affects how you think and act. Do you see my confusion here?


[edit on 28/9/06 by Prote]

A final word. In a previous post, you mentioned that we (humans) would be surprised how little we could do by ourselves. I can't express in words the sorrow I feel for you that you think that way. I have personally supported and counselled would be suicides with the complete opposite viewpoint. You should see some of these people now, you would see miracles. I don't see miracles, I see faith in action without illogical conclusions, practices and stories.

Christianity saved you and others, it can't be all bad but 2000 years of literature, rewritten history, chinese whispers, miracles, war, crusades, no-one has any clue what the truth is. We all know the right path, deep down, we all know it. We don't need these books and stories. If you do, then surely, we can teach a message that doesn't kill anyone, what are we learning as a species? what does religion contribute in the modern age? (good thread title)

Life is a walk in the park. We're overcomplicating it. People need religion as a security blanket but in today's era, it's a stifler unless it's updated. We just can't let things go. Most of the Bibles preach forgiveness, love thy neighbour. Crap! hypocrisy. If we could truly let go, we could make radical improvements to the world. No one can let go though. It's too risky. You included.

Originally posted by Prote
Who do you think the enemy is?

huh! Who was trying to dominate you? Who was driving you away? Is this a specific detail issue?

This is usually where the thread goes side-tracked and askew. I knew by sight among other senses who Satan was. He did not have to tell me. Included with that knowledge is the feeling as well which is as unmistakable as a fingerprint. I don't like to go into much detail, as a few months ago I was answering a bunch of "how" questions and despite my warning in my responses to not do anything stupid like what I did, the person did. I regret the mention of details now.

Back on track. One of my proofs of God was the proof of the opposite.

Originally posted by Prote
So you agree that some of these statements may appear absurd to a non Christian?

Yeah.

Originally posted by Prote
Why would the truth be absurd? Unless it wasn't the truth.

Because we're not trained to recognize truth, we're trained to recognize repetition. For example, there was a polar bear cub who was put into a cage after he was born. Each day it would pace back and forth over the same few feet of ground. When it was old enough to be placed into the zoo, the cub was shipped to the zoo and placed in a broad rocky environment with a lake. When it awoke from the tranquilizer in its new environment, it paced back and forth across the same length that he had come to know was the length of his cage. Try to teach the polar bear that it is no longer limited would be absurd to it. It was beyond anything it ever knew before. I was that cub. Even after proof had come that I was on board expanse, I had to learn how to stop pacing over the same ground.

Other things we used to think were absurd but are true:
1.) The earth revolving around the sun
2.) Traveling faster than 35 miles per hour in a car with the windows down.
3.) Traveling faster than sound
4.) Ion drive technology

All these things were thought to be impossible, but in reality, they are true.

Originally posted by Prote
I see. Just to play devil's advocate (excuse the pun),

No worries, I think I'm sharp enough to know the difference these days.

Originally posted by Prote
if I told myself something for 15 years, how ingrained would that become?

Uhm, I don't "tell myself" anything. That would be retarding. I mean that in the most literal sense of the word. I'm a skeptic, I have to be shown. I don't take repetition for granted. Just because it happened before doesn't mean necessarily that it is guarenteed to happen again. Probability, exploration, validation, cross-referencing, etc.

Originally posted by Prote
Have you ever seen these American Idol type TV shows. I love the auditions at the beginning where you get these youngsters that come in and sing so badly, it makes you cringe. The look of absolute genuine disbelief on their faces when they are told they are rubbish is a sight to behold. Ever since they were 3 and told to sing in front of aunty clare and aunty susan, they've been told how wonderful they are. The family has overly supported and heaped misplaced praise on them since they were young and they are so bad it's side splittingly hilarious. The power of suggestion is simply AWESOME, I would urge you to watch Derren Brown's "The Heist", I will try and post a link if I can. Using simple techniques, you can make people do things that would astonish you.

I didn't have my parent's coaching. I didn't have the benefit of someone telling me the truth, I had to find out through trial and error. It would have been much easier if someone told me the truth in the beginning as it would have saved me a lot of pain and struggle. The 15 years I'm referring to are not the first 15 years of my life. Apologies if I gave that impression.

Originally posted by Prote
But you pleaded for him to come and save you and he did.

That's how I see it.

Originally posted by Prote
If he came to you as a result of your plead, YOU instigated the "meeting".

Funny you should bring that up. There is debate even within church walls to say who instigated the meeting. Was it me when I asked for help or was it Him by letting me do some stupid things? I'm only giving my perspective and as I saw it, I came to him though it's not really relevant. It's like asking a husband this question, "Did you marry your wife because you love her or because she loves you?"

Originally posted by Prote
Therefore, your statement needs revising. Facts existed, but those facts are that you are holding a ball, you drop it, and it hangs in mid air. Our difference of opinion is that because it hangs in mid air and has a low probability, does not mean that the only conclusion you can draw is that it hangs as a result of divine intervention.

I'm supposing also all other explanations, tests and so forth are explored post-event that fall short. As you and I both know the laws of science say it would fall.

Originally posted by Prote
I am coming to understand that proof of God may be as a result of many such experiences but your math is out but we'll come back to that.

The point I want to make is that improbability becomes exponential.

Originally posted by Prote
What does God have to do with war, for you? You mean the old chestnut about if there was a benevolent God, why would there be wars? that sort of thing? That's an interesting subject to hear from your perspective. What other things did you struggle with?

Nobody ever said God does not nor will not let bad things happen. You can use my history as an example if you like. He's benevolent, but he's not going to micromanage our lives for us. He knows the "end game" and will be there waiting for when we're done with our nonsense.

What else do I struggle with... here's one, as there are many, that is along a similar vein. Last night I had to administer discipline to my child. I love my child and had no wish nor desire to see pain come to my kid, nor tears from kid's eyes. But, all other discussions, lectures, forms of discipline had been exhausted. Sometimes doing the right thing can be painful. This explains the cliche "this is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you."

Other things I struggle with is understanding what people were thinking and doing in the Old Testament, which is natural because post-Christ's birth here, there was a significant change in our viewpoint.

Originally posted by Prote
Wow. I've never thrown it. It does make me angry though, I agree it makes no sense. That's part of the problem and a major flaw in the marketing strategy.

I don't think it's a good idea to shove a book on someone and say, "here read this". It's like giving a mechanic's book to a chef and telling them to build a car. It's written in english, has instructions, but the mechanisms are not the same.

Originally posted by Prote
I have been around for a few years now and I know or have met very few church goers in all those years. I think the two are linked.

My goal isn't to get you into a church. If you want to go, awesome! But in the end it's yourself that has to be accountable. Going the church doesn't give anyone "brownie points" and the Book they read from says so. During that decade and a half I hadn't gone to church. Recently I joined one because I was so energized in being a part of it, I couldn't imagine life without it. It has helped me to grow spiritually by leaps and bounds by giving me opportunities to do something with my faith instead of just having faith. Having faith is first though, else the deeds are empty. (Book of James)

[edit on 28-9-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Prote
We're touching on another area here. One of the things I am trying to grasp is what do you get from being a christian that you don't get from not being one?

Have you ever gotten those chocolate candies as a kid that look alike but can only tell the difference when you bite into it? Side-by-side they have the same chocolate shell. The first one you bite into is hollow. It's still good, but you're disappointed there wasn't more to it. The second one has caramel filling. It's better than expected, with liquid so sweet you know that this is the greatest candy ever. The things you gain from Christianity: eternal life, love for God, guidance from God, eternal life, peace, comfort, the desire to learn and grow in righteousness, eternal life, etc. are that caramel filling. And that's not even the whole candy dish! That's just something to hold us over for now.

Originally posted by Prote
In response to your statement here, I would be interested to learn about the puzzles or dilemmas the Bible has helped you solve.

Wow, where to start. I'll start with one then. Giving. I never understood how you receive anything from giving other than a warm-fuzzy feeling. But, I took the word for what it says here:

"Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.' - Matthew 5:42

I thought this was something for rich people to do to be fair, but no! In fact, if a rich person is not giving sacrificially then they are falling short of the scripture. I had to learn to give even though I felt it would hurt for me to do so. Yet more and more I'm learning that giving is a key component in receiving. And...it don't make no sense. Sense tells us we SAVE money we'll have more of it. Anyway, there was a person whom I did not know who said they really needed it and I gave it despite "needing" that little cash myself for lunch and gas. By the end of that day, a series of events occured where I came out a hundred dollars ahead in cash! That does not happen to me. It might for other people but for this "coincidence" to happen on the very same day out of my 70 plus, minus years is strange indeed. I'm trying to incorporate giving wherever I see opportunities now spending more than ten percent towards these things in various places and even though the bills say I should be several hundred dollars in the hole, it always balances out...sometimes even being ahead. Looking at the numbers it makes little sense. This coming from someone who has been in the banking industry for almost ten years now.

Originally posted by Prote
No circumstance exists that you don't have the ability to cope with, you just have to learn how.

I had my time "on my own" to solve everything and went from bad to worse.

Originally posted by Prote
No scriptures, no pain, none of the downsides, just peace.

There's much to be said about peace. It's a part of the chocolate shell. I didn't even have a shell before, I was a hunk of rock-salt.

Originally posted by Prote
Again, you reinforce the notion that you were the instigator, you chose to believe, to submit and perceived a response.

You're right to say I see myself as the instigator. Whether or not that's truly the case I don't know. I did not "self-create" a response. I am incapable of "self-creating" more than what I know, can imagine, and yet still be consistent with others who have had similar experiences. In addition, although this was the most drastic change for me, it was not an isolated incident.

Originally posted by Prote
But you describe it as absolute submission.

A transferrence of trust from myself to God. A willful submission to do my best to keep within his word and plan. Many (especially in this country) have a big problem with submission of any kind and equate it to slavery, but I submit to everyone that there is another kind of submission. That is to say, by loving so much that you would do whatever is desired by the recipient of that love. Chocolate shell. B.C. (before Christ, in this context before Christ in my life) I did not know love. Not even the chocolate shell of reciprocated earthly romantic love. But suddenly all at once, I received the heart of it. The flowing caramel of a complete love from God. Some may argue that love was always there, but I didn't feel it. Now having felt it, I can say yes for sure it is very real.

[edit on 28-9-2006 by saint4God]

I know I'm coming into this particular debate a little late but I need somthing to do as I slack off from work so I thought I'd throw my two cents in. However, I haven't had the time to read through 100 pages of bickering so I'll respond to the original post with my opinions.

I too have heard the rhetoric of not "Forcing my beliefs" on someone and it always makes me laugh. I've never forced my religious or spiritual views on anyone in my life, I may have been a strong supporter of my beliefs but that is entirely different. Maybe it's just me but it seems as if the atheists are the ones forcing their "belief" on everyone.

I would never try to "convert" an atheist, Jesus said "Do not cast perls before swine or they will be trampled underfoot and the swine will turn on you" (not a literal translation)

Atheists constantly claim to be harrassed and persecuted, perhaps it's because their "beliefs" are founded on absolutely nothing. When they find themselves in a debate with someone who's views and opinions are grounded in somthing they feel very strongly about it's no surprise that they would feel a bit attacked. Why is it that a Christian with a strong faith wouldn't feel persecuted by, or afraid, of an atheist?

Atheists are afraid of religion because they are afraid that they are not the final word in morality. As an atheist people feel as if they are free to do as they please and no one is allowed to tell them what they do is wrong, no matter how guilty an atheist may feel. Atheists believe that we are at the pinnacle of evolution and rational thought and that anything written or believed before now is completely worthless.

Atheism really boils down to denial, not just of God but of one's true emotions. If you truly feel there is nothing past this world, then why would you feel guilty for somthing?

I've found that most atheists are very adamant in defending their belief, somthing which I've always found quite odd. If you truly believe in nothing, and are truly an atheist and not just an agnostic, then why would you be afraid of someone who believes in somthing you feel is wrong?

If someone were to say to me that they believe the Green Teletubbie (Only the green one you heathen!!!) is the true creator of the universe and that when we die we see a little cartoon about ourselves in his tummy I would probably laugh and leave them to believe what they want. If you atheists truly believe what we Christians think is absurd then why waste your time?

The enitre debate about removing statues and objects deemed "Christian" is rediculous. Look around you, there is Masonic symbolism everywhere yet you don't have a problem with that. If you believe in nothing at all then why not let others go on being deluded so that the intellectual minority that is the atheists remains a minority. After all, atheism is truly about the intellectual consecration of the self as the ultimate power in the universe.

Anyways, there're plenty of atheist "idols" up all over the place. There was one right next to the statue of the Ten Commandments, it was that big empty space of nothing surrounding it. Hell, there's nothing everywhere! Those atheists even snuck it into my wallet!!

It's a big atheist conspiracy to force their non-beliefs on all of us!!!!

Quick! Whatever you do, believe in somthing! Start making things up before we find out the atheists were right and thousands upon thousand of years of human history is nothing more than a fairy tale! Maybe I'll start the first church of Tolkein.

Bah, atheists, who needs them. Too bad they don't realize that even they are already saved.

Originally posted by Prote
Are you able to disclose what it was you wanted? and got.

Yes, by U2U if you promise not to do the same thing. I have very few regrets, but one of them is discussing this and someone else making the same mistake. I haven't seen him recover and worry still about him.

Originally posted by Prote
He told you to worship him? is that right?

Yeah. He was under the impression I made an agreement. But, that's not exactly what I'd asked for. I never agreed to worship, I agreed to believe...which I did so as I saw it my end of the agreement was fulfilled. He disagreed though and pursued like a lawyer upon someone who reneged on a contract.

Originally posted by Prote
Where was he? How did you get to him?

Where he was I don't know, but who he came to was me. That how question is the dangerous part I've mentioned and wish to avoid answering publically. I do so not because it is secret or confidential, but because I have seen what happens when a person got so curious that they decided to validate it from themselves. Like jumping into the middle of the ocean to see if its wet and not knowing the way to shore.

Originally posted by Prote
I don't mean to appear rude but this is simply not true.

And you are basing this truth upon... ?

Originally posted by Prote
I know it wouldn't have felt like it at the time but even those who successfully take thier own life had it somewhere within them to make a difference. Some we will lose simply through numbers and some will not be gotten to in time, some will not be counselled correctly but everyone has it, somehwere, you just need to find it.

I'm beginning to wonder about the comprehension of the suicidal mind. Counselling would not have done the trick for me, sorry. Neither would any amount of self-inflation. It' was for me superficial nonsense and I was sick of it.

I'm not saying counselling isn't a good idea, I think it is, but I also know it would not have helped me. There's a long story to explain why, perhaps in U2U or other thread.

Originally posted by Prote
Some need intervention, in your case it was divine, in my experience, it is not, it is a simple (but sometimes lengthy) process

Wrap that thinking up into a box and put a bow on it. It looks pretty but is yard-sale material inside.

Originally posted by Prote
as each experience has it's complexities, but God is elusive. Faith is not.

Faith, a God-given tool never leaves the Master's hand. I'm not talking about the faith in mere head-knowledge or a temporary faith to get through a hard time, but solid faith that is assured and never ends.

Originally posted by Prote
However, I understand that your path could also have found you solice in your hour of need, perhaps this saved you

Don't you think as a non-believe I would have tried to save myself? Indeed I did, many many times. God is always last on the list to those who don't believe.

Originally posted by Prote
and you should rightly hold your faith in the regard that you do. I can't escape from some of the other issues though that are not so hearlfelt, sincere and pure. Perhaps I hold a mild resentment because I have had to carefully unstitch a nasty web of ingrained, self-destructive religious programming from someone close.

That does sound difficult indeed. I've tried the same on a few occasions myself.

Originally posted by Prote
Are you saying that God controls what I do or intervenes? like he does with you? I just don't know it, or accept it?

I don't see God as that much of a micro-manager. I think He has a plan to which we can follow or turn away from. I see the daily decisions as mine and in some cases ask/pray that they be guided so I don't go off-course. This varies though, some feel he does work in every intimate detail.

Originally posted by Prote
Glad you agree.

It is strange. But then again so is an amusement park ride...but it sure is fun.

Originally posted by Prote
A quick note about your probabilities. I'm no math major either but first, your post was selling me the idea that you were being conservative in your numbers when demonstraing a miracle. You used a lottery example with odds of 1 billion to 1 on winning and then went on to multiply this, not once but twice, to show how big the number is you get on winning the lottery 3 times. Therefore it's a miracle.

Well, my lottery here covers 60 million people and the odds of winning are 14 million to 1. Your starting number (before multiplying) was 1 billion. Thats a HUGE difference.

Just an example from a specific state lottery. Didn't want to get bogged down in actual numbers.

Originally posted by Prote
Now when you multiply it through (using the correct subsequent multiplying factors), you reach a number that is about a dozen or more digits less than your 'conservative' estimate. So, much less of a miracle. Even so, how many events with such probabilities happen on such a regular basis? How often has someone won the lottery 3 times?

I've not seen it, erego miracle. That was my point. The thing about miracles though is they have a specific direction and purpose. You cannot learn anything about process by winning the lottery, which is one major difference. Miracles have a point and direction that we can learn from. Therefore the gift of a miracle is greater than winning a million dollars.

Originally posted by Prote
Then you still have to make giant leaps. One that it wasn't random chance. Improbable, yes, impossible, never. Two that it simply wasn't rigged, three that you rule out every possible alternative and arrive at the conclusion that not only was it a miracle, not by a human hand, not by an aliens hand, not by any other hyper dimensional beings hand but by the very hand of God himself, the creator of the universe, life and everything.

It's true I lefted out the "rigged" idea and probably some others that would turn and example to demonstrate a model into a bunch of technicalities specific only to the lottery. I'm not discouraging investigating the reasons at all though. Dig in there! "Test everything" as Paul says. Try to find out what happened. It wouldn't be much of a miracle if it were taken on mere acceptance. Go down the checklist, but after you investigate every avenue, talk to everyone you can to see if there's anything you may have missed.

Originally posted by Prote
And he chooses to personally save various humans (or all) on this planet........no, it's all too much. It's that missing link that I can never achieve unless I commit. Right?

I thinks it's wise to be cautious of any commitment, ask all questions that could be asked. Test the information you're getting. Don't do anything based on what I say. I've proven (or can prove for those who do not know) in the past I've done some stupid things in the past, however I can say in doing those stupid things, I have learned a lot about the right way to do things as well. Here's your test then. If you pray to God and there is no God, what have you lost? Feel free to do so in private and tell no one if you prefer. Surely then no explanation to anyone would be necessary. But...if there is a God, He will hear you. Us humans think we'll have a billboard drop from the sky with a list of instructions, but that's not how God talks to us. Have your ears and eyes open, be patient and that answer will indeed come. It's surprisingly more effective than the dropping billboard and shows that you're at least willing to give Him the opportunity to respond how He wishes as a valuable part of your relationship. If you say you've never heard God speaking to you before, I'll say that indeed He has been (and yes I know this), now all we have to do is check your connection to make sure you're hearing it.

shadowflux, This discussion is not about atheism, it is about the absolute power of Christianity. You talk about atheist anger bur your post is in rant format, it seems a little hypocritical.

Further, your description and understanding of an atheist doesn't look very accurate at all. At least, it is almost polar opposite to my understanding. It just looks like the chip on your shoulder is causing you to complain about the chip on the shoulder of another group.

I'll go into far, far more detail if you would like.

Oh, I'm not atheist BTW, but I have been.

[edit on 28/9/06 by Prote]

Originally posted by Prote
Hang on, thats Scientology. Seriously though, perhaps I can put this without running off on a rant.

No no, not "scien"tology which is not a match. Different set of beliefs entirely, not able to illistrate them all in this thread though had made a separate one that gives some details. Being one who studies science, I'm frustrated that they've assumed the part I put in quotes.

Originally posted by Prote
Using your ball scenario again. Seeing the stationary ball in mid air, I can make a slightly less gigantic leap of faith and accept that some kind of intervention has taken place. So, here I am.

But now you're putting faith in expo-facto and was not the scenario I was illustrating. It's easy to believe something you've already seen. The tool of faith is not being used here at all. Merely possible explanations for something that has already occurred.

Originally posted by Prote
Now the question becomes, what is the force behind the intervention? Because I don't know what it is, I may assume some kind of energy or some kind of being perhaps, maybe a combination, who knows. To assume either one is another leap so that's two smaller leaps rather than one giant one....with me so far?

Phew! You're digging into the technicals, which is cool cause it shows real interest. The problem is there's an assumption that we all go through the same processes. It's like declaring what the "perfect painting" is by particular colors, brush strokes, applications of force, angles, shapes and directions. Indeed there are many beautiful paintings, with each one of us being one of those paintings. Each hewn from separate flowers (our experiences) and have our own color (personality, thinking, etc.) that when put into the artist's hand (God) comes out in the end to be wonderful as the artist had intended it.

Now, if you're asking what YOUR next step should be, then I think I can be of some help. But, your next step will not be the same as everyone else's. God has a personal relationship, not a giant cookie-cutter to make you fit into a box.

Originally posted by Prote
However, I still have not arrived at the conclusion that the force is God. I have made two small leaps of faith already to to further speculate that the energy/being behind the force is God requires leap number 3. 3 small leaps = one gigantic one (you got the formula here first, Nobel prize here I come).

When I break it down like this, I would be prepared to take some of those steps. But not all.

A good approach I think. If we teleported to our destination, we'd miss all the things to be discovered along the way.

Originally posted by Prote
How many balls defying the laws of physics would it take for someone to conclude that God exists? It varies, obviously.

Not initially, perhaps not even conclusively by this singular incidence. One piece of a larger puzzle.

Originally posted by Prote
Let me throw this out there. Why would the force behind the ball not be my dead father helping me out or any other passed relative or even an ancestor?

In the beginning perhaps that would be an option/possibility. One has to go down the list crossing things off as they don't fit.

Originally posted by Prote
a guardian angel?

Angels are said to be the workers of God, so that could explain the actual mechanism, but ultimately the angel does not act out of accord with God (else he gets thrown out as recorded)

Originally posted by Prote
an alien?

Perhaps on the initial list, but interestingly enough a little easier to discount than dead ancestors. God's ways may seem "alien" to us but that's as far as I'd go in tagging my experiences.

Originally posted by Prote
simply something we can't understand?

I believe God wants us to understand Him. I also believe we are incapable of comprehending God at once or in totale. It may occur postmortem but I don't know.

Originally posted by Prote
I'll leave that to you then.

To U2U you? I will if you'd like or think it would help.

Originally posted by Prote
I suppose once you've leapt once, you leap again. and again...

This is a good point! Another illustration if I may. Supposing you're going to cross a rushing river and see there are rocks to get accross. They're all equal distance and equally difficult. Which is the hardest jump to make and why?

[edit on 28-9-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Prote
Perhaps. It goes in hand with what I was saying about inner strength. It's probably not difficult to fill in the gaps.

Another benefit I'd received was inner strength though it was not by my doing.

Originally posted by Prote
You mean God? Do you?

Ya.

Originally posted by Prote
Yes. But you aren't following this, again, ball analogy, your God theory falls at validation. You are receiving false validation. As I have already pointed out, that the ball didn't drop is validation only that something you don't understand is afoot.

I'll take it for now

Originally posted by Prote
To validate to yourself that the almighty wants to play with the ball is an entirely different kettle of fish altogether. I know you know it.

Hehe, I am going from A to E with cursory looks at B, C, and D but was hoping to show this is only one short glance of a much larger model. The focus though was not "this is the mechanism" but rather "this is the tool and how to use it". Hopefully the precidence is here that a miracle is an event without describable mechanism.

Originally posted by Prote
A valiant effort but no cigar. Not easy.

Ah well, I have to try ^_^

Originally posted by Prote
Yes.

Why is assuming that God created a system different than assuming that something will occur? Both are assumptions of things unseen.

Originally posted by Prote
You can observe the effects of gravity. Yeah, yeah, you can observe the effects of God.

Originally posted by Prote
Well, of course, I haven't witnessed anything so can't readily agree.

On the contrary, it just wasn't labeled properly.

Originally posted by Prote
Everyone can see the effects of Gravity, no training, no conditioning, no committing, accepting, forgiving, damnation just plain old here it is, this is gravity, this is what it is and this is how we understand it to work. Chalk and cheese.

One does not have to train, condition, yadda yadda for God to exist. He exists without our interested in seeing. You cannot explain gravity unless you choose to try to learn about it.

Originally posted by Prote
See previous responses. I gave plenty of alternatives simply to demonstrate to you how I am unable to make the same leaps you have. That's OK, We all have different levels of proof and you are 15 years ahead of me and by the sounds of things, have witnessed many incredible things.

I wouldn't say I have more knowledge or anything, just different experiences and perhaps reached a conclusion at a different time. There are billions and billions of people who live and have lived that reached the same end long before me.

Originally posted by Prote
Miracle? We can argue semantics but not for me. I would like to look up real life examples of occurences defying the probabilities you mentioned near the top of this page. (or previous)

I posted one on this thread a few pages back (3 or 4 maybe?) about someone I know who's sister had a brain tumor disappear overnight. There were lots of prayer and hopes going out for a miracle so long as it was according to God's will. There's the miracle that I'm still alive. It's hard to describe but I was heading to self-destruction and required an actual change of course to stop it. I "saw" that end coming and was yanked from it. An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. Newton's laws describe a bit about how we think and act many times, not just a physical universe.

Originally posted by Prote
I agree with the sentiment but hardly a momentary trust. You gave yourself, completely, entirely, wilfully, eternally, based on an experience I will never know.

Never say never, forever is a long time. But, I don't think you'll have to get a taste of hell to see heaven. You've got a much better approach as I see it. The reason why there was a dramatic change is because of the intensity of the proof and knowledge obtain. I know I know if I have so much proof, why don't I share it? I can't. It's my proof and if no-one else experiences it, they couldn't possibly consider it their own. What I can do is help others obtain theirs.

Originally posted by Prote
I am fully aware of what may be greater than mankind skulking around the universe,

Originally posted by Prote
but these lessons can be taught and learned without all the perifery excess baggage that surrounds most faiths.

All the best with that. A pastor of a church I'd once attended was ex-everything (that most can think of) until landing upon what he'd considered the truth. That wouldn't make me a believer, I would need my own evidence.

Originally posted by Prote
This is your ball analogy again. I think I asked you the same question. conclusion: it varies. (I think, boy, these posts are long)

If God created people different, created plants and animals different, then it stands to reason each of our experiences would also differ. I think God likes these differences.

Originally posted by Prote
I don't think that changes much. Some kind of intervention would be more obvious here but who or what and more importantly, Why? God? I don't think so. It could never be ruled out but neither can lots of things, that's the problem.

The element I was adding was direction. Something considered by both man and God to be good. When a bunch of these things string along like a pearl necklace, then you start to notice the One who's making it.

Originally posted by Prote
I have an idea, a concept, of God. He's very different to yours but the paths are similar, believe it or not. The technique, application and perception is what differs. We both have faith.

Faith in... what?

Originally posted by Prote
How do you disprove a probability, chance? Everything has a probability. It doesn't matter how many zeros your chosen event(s) have, they can, will and do happen. The chances of anything coming from Mars were a million to one, they said. Not much really, is it?

Interesting thing about chance is it discounts itelf eventually. My example was "for starters". How many "near impossibilities" have to occur before "chance" is a poor explanation? That model starts to decompose after a while.

Originally posted by Prote
I think I flit from cynic to skeptic and back again.

I've seen a bit of cynicism but I don't see it unwarrented, but I'd say it's a much much smaller percentage than the skepticism.

Originally posted by Prote
I don't intend to commit to anything. I can't claim to hold any level of balance on any subject if I don't engage it. My posts may not show it but you have helped me progress my 'project' immensly, I hope that continues.

THANK YOU! Made my day. Again I'm not asking you to commit to anything based on what I say. I'd like to show you how you can find these answers without me. If I can help establish that link, you can tap into getting all the answers you like.

Originally posted by Prote
Oh no! I just thanked you too and then you say this. You have used numbers as one means of proof for the existence of miracles and thus, God. The miracles take you through a series of conclusions and affects how you think and act. Do you see my confusion here?

Ya. But rest assured I didn't jump immediately conclusions. Conclusions were an "end-game" result for me, not a starting point. But, based on previous tests and conclusions there of, I've learned to trust enough to take action I'm informed from The Most Reliable Source without anticipating any outcome other than it will be the right one. That has rung true, but again wasn't how I began. Before I would anticipate the outcome and rely upon myself, my thinking to predict the outcome. Often that had tragic results.

Enjoying this! Keep it comin' if you like

Prote,

Actually the subject of the "Absolute Power of Christianity" was a conclusion drawn by the orginal starter of this thread. It was a conclusion he had come to as when he asked himself why atheists are so against Christianity. The original question was:

Why start a concerted effort to remove a message of peace and love from society through law and propoganda?

I attempted to answer that question with my own opinions and experiences. Maybe we're getting our lines crossed, when I said atheists I meant atheist. Not "secular humanist" or anything else you want to call it.

Atheist also does not refer to someone who is "spiritual but not religious".

An atheist is also not an agnostic.

An atheist is one who does not believe in the divinity of a creator or any type of god for that matter.


Anyways, if you thought that was a rant then you've obviously never heard me rant before. No, that post was in slacking format, which you can tell because in the begining I said I was slacking off from work.

I'm sorry if my general descriptions of atheists was not spot on correct for every single one of them. Funny that no one seems to care that 90% of non-Christians have no concept of what being a Christian is all about.

Feel free to go deep into detail if you'd like but I can't promise that I'll care enough to read it. The fact is that every individual is different and I'd wager a bet that the atheists you've known are very different from the New York City, yuppie, intellectual bubble atheists I've known.

The main point I was trying to make is that I feel many atheists condem religion for fear of being "wrong", for the fact that they really have no spiritual beliefs, they don't like thinking their not in control, they like to superimpose their morals not only on others, but on the past as well, they've probably never been in a dark enough place spiritually to realise that they need some kind of higher power in their lives, they don't like to think that there's a plan for their lives they might not be following.

I could go much deeper into detail to but it's lunch time and I don't feel like arguing with people who just want to argue and are going to tell me my opinions are wrong no matter what I say.

Originally posted by Prote
A final word. In a previous post, you mentioned that we (humans) would be surprised how little we could do by ourselves. I can't express in words the sorrow I feel for you that you think that way.

I didn't mean it in a demeaning way, I meant it in a perspective way. God has given us remarkable capabilities, but compared to his...well...

Originally posted by Prote
I have personally supported and counselled would be suicides with the complete opposite viewpoint.

That is such awesome work, I cannot even begin to describe how grateful I am to hear it. Thank you very much for your service. I truly mean it.

Originally posted by Prote
You should see some of these people now, you would see miracles.

If saving someone's life is a miracle, imagine how much of a miracle it would be to save someone's soul. How incredible would it be to not only do one, but to have a part to play in both? Just something to consider.

Originally posted by Prote
I don't see miracles, I see faith in action without illogical conclusions, practices and stories.

Faith in... what?

Originally posted by Prote
Christianity saved you and others, it can't be all bad but 2000 years of literature, rewritten history,

What history did Christianity "rewrite"?

Originally posted by Prote
chinese whispers, miracles, war, crusades, no-one has any clue what the truth is.

Ah, now we're slipping into the typical route. Okay, you've been with me on the complexities, I suppose we can go through the usual arguments as well. How can you say "no-one has any clue what the truth is"? That would mean that not only do you know everyone but also you know what's inside their head AND heart. Quite a bold statement coming from a mere human. I also hope there's no-one of Chinese ethnicity reading this thread, else they should have something to say about the misnomer. Seems your curiosity is turning to assumption, dialogue to monologue, and skepticism to cynicism.

Originally posted by Prote
We all know the right path, deep down, we all know it.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Prote
We don't need these books and stories.

I was saved without a Bible. Not sure of your point. The Bible came into play when I wanted specific answers and was directed to it. When I had questions on that I went to God. I think God could have answered every question I could ever possibly had, but He found it best that I do a little work to find out not just what the answer is, but how to find the answer. This tool has come in handy for other applications as well.

Originally posted by Prote
If you do, then surely, we can teach a message that doesn't kill anyone,

Like this one?

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others?" - Matthew 5:43-47

That's Christ speaking there. If you're a follower of Christ, then you are a Christian.

Originally posted by Prote
what are we learning as a species? what does religion contribute in the modern age? (good thread title)

That quote above is a nice starter. I could go on for years with other material.

Originally posted by Prote
Life is a walk in the park. We're overcomplicating it. People need religion as a security blanket

Okay friend, starting to lose interest with this same-ole already addressed a thousand times spew.

Originally posted by Prote
but in today's era, it's a stifler unless it's updated. We just can't let things go. Most of the Bibles preach forgiveness, love thy neighbour. Crap! hypocrisy.

It is neither. It is the PEOPLE who claim and do not practice that are the source of "Crap! hypocrisy". I'm suprised I have to "go there" but this speech is neither original nor interesting. Show me then how "love your neighbor" is the wrong thing to do and we'll talk. I'm not an Otherpeopletian, I'm a Christian.

Oh by the way, there was an great man once who told people not to be hypocrites. Any idea who?

Originally posted by Prote
If we could truly let go, we could make radical improvements to the world.

Whereas I was not making radical improvements in the world, I now am and have the proofs to show it. But, you'd have to take a trip over to here to see them.

Originally posted by Prote
No one can let go though.

Mr."can't make that leap of faith" is telling others to let go? Please.

Originally posted by Prote
You included.

Clarify.

[edit on 28-9-2006 by saint4God]

Hey Shadowflux, your discrimination against athiests is just as bad as an athiests discrimination against Christians. I don't see how your approach is representative of "love your neighbor", "love your enemy", and "go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation."

Originally posted by Shadowflux
Feel free to go deep into detail if you'd like but I can't promise that I'll care enough to read it.

I didn't want to that's why I didn't. Thanks for your warm, loving christian embrace.

I could go much deeper into detail

I would welcome a discussion. You may not care to read my replies though.

but it's lunch time and I don't feel like arguing with people who just want to argue

I don't want to argue. I want to be educated.

and are going to tell me my opinions are wrong no matter what I say.

That's a pretty final conclusion after reading one post. But I suppose that because you flounce in here without a care in the world, any statement you make is not up for challenge or question because you're on lunch break and can't be bothered? That's the gist of it.

We can clarify each others understanding quite easily if we feel secure with ourselves and our own path. We can disagree without argument and still educate ourselves and each other.

You can't expect to make some of the statements that you did and not get a reaction. I assure you, I am only here to learn, and nothing else. I shouldn't be talking you out of defeatist statements like 'are going to tell me my opinions are wrong no matter what I say' in my second post to you.

I won't pull your first post to pieces as I would have liked, let's not go backwards. I am happy to discuss your thoughts because I am interested in them, if you feel you want to talk about it and hear saints opinion too or anyone else that wants to join, it has been, and still is, a very interesting subject and thread.

There are lots of things you stated in your first post that, IMHO, you could be mis perceiving. That mis perception could be on my part but if your post is not up for challenge, how will we know? or do we stumble blindly on?

saint....thank you very much for all your input so far....I will be back to you soon. I want to take some time to try and take stock of the last couple of pages. I may not agree with all you say but I don't expect to, it would be an unreasonable expectation to have.

There are definitely areas that you have helped me clarify a little. I don't want to go round in circles either, so I need to think about what I do, don't, can't or won't understand.

Thanks again.


PS - Sorry about the mini rant at the end of the last lot. I knew as soon as the cynicism kicked it, I would get a reaction, it isn't intentional. Let me put it this way....

I understand that I don't understand.

[edit on 28/9/06 by Prote]

Prote,

I find it hard to believe that your are here to learn when you engage a person in discussion using criticism. For knowledge to enter the mind it must be open and not judgemental. I find it more believable that you're simply trying to pull me into a quote for qoute argument over irrelevant details.

I love when people think they understand someone's religious beliefs and have since moved on to "smarter" notions. Where did this idea that Christians are all supposed to be nice and warm to everyone come from? Certainly not the Bible, did Jesus not take a whip to the money changers and trinket sellers?

Jesus taught us to love our neighbors and our enemies, but not to go around giving them hugs.

You may think I have "flounced in here with no care in the world", though I fail to see how my cares determin how much time I spend on a message board. But perhaps you're right to a digree, I don't really care what other people think of my religious beliefs. My faith is strong and no matter how sure you are that you are right my faith won't weaken. It may seem as though I have little to worry about but perhaps it's because my faith is so strong.

I'm sitting here trying to formulate a proper response to your last post to me but I'm finding it rather difficult as you've said very little of substance except for telling me how easy you're going on my posts. Rip my first post to shreds all you'd like. All you've managed to do thus far is tell me I'm wrong and then tell me I'm getting angry about being wrong.

I fail to see how my description of an atheist as one who believes in no spiritual side and no God is a "polar opposite" to what is correct. If my understanding of an atheist is wrong then please enlighten me. I think it's quite often true that atheists don't truly understand the term "atheist" and are in fact Agnostic, where in there is a god but there is no way to contact him and he really cares little for us.

A lot of people these days would like to debate Christianity yet have read little of the Bible or of Christian theology and philosophy. People these days make the mistake of not seperating the Church and Christianity. The Church is a seperate entity unto itself which must sustain itself seperate from the Christian belief system. If you want to say that Christianity is wrong you should debate the belief system and philosophy and not the church or organized Christianity.

Jesus's teachings are so powerful because they are undeniable, peaceful, and logical.

Shadowflux,

I apologise for any direct or implied criticism. As I said, I don't want a quote for quote argument so let's move forward. I'll let you know specifically the sort of sentence I was referring to, then we can leave it or discuss it. I am happy to avoid arguing.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
If my understanding of an atheist is wrong then please enlighten me. I think it's quite often true that atheists don't truly understand the term "atheist" and are in fact Agnostic, where in there is a god but there is no way to contact him and he really cares little for us.

an "atheist" can be defined as either:

A person who does not believe that at least one god exists; or
A person who has a positive belief that no god or gods exist.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
Atheists constantly claim to be harrassed and persecuted, perhaps it's because their "beliefs" are founded on absolutely nothing.

I disagree that an athiests beliefs are founded on nothing. Lack of evidence or proof constitutes exactly that for some.

What does the source mean by positive belief? Do you think that means just that they believe, the word positive is not required? or that the individual has received "personal proof". If they have, how can it be denied to them?

Originally posted by Shadowflux
A lot of people these days would like to debate Christianity yet have read little of the Bible or of Christian theology and philosophy. People these days make the mistake of not seperating the Church and Christianity. The Church is a seperate entity unto itself which must sustain itself seperate from the Christian belief system. If you want to say that Christianity is wrong you should debate the belief system and philosophy and not the church or organized Christianity.

Very true. I have tried, and I struggle sometimes. If people want to debate it, that's ok surely? You can't expect agnostics et al to understand so readily. saint is very patient and it's paying off. he is prepared to field questions that no one else will and much respect for that, I hope I'm not alone but these conversations are helping bridge an understanding gap.

Jesus's teachings are so powerful because they are undeniable, peaceful, and logical.

To You.

Originally posted by Prote
saint....thank you very much for all your input so far....I will be back to you soon. I want to take some time to try and take stock of the last couple of pages. I may not agree with all you say but I don't expect to, it would be an unreasonable expectation to have.

This is true, the world would be a pretty boring place if everybody agreed with everything. Thank you for the time to take serious consideration, it speaks much of character I think.

Originally posted by Prote
There are definitely areas that you have helped me clarify a little.

Hooray! Progress is good *nods*

Originally posted by Prote
I don't want to go round in circles either, so I need to think about what I do, don't, can't or won't understand.

I think "can't" is a swear word though and try not to use it. A phrase that defines "can't" for me is "I feel defeated and because of that will no longer try". This is the opposite of "with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible".

I do appreciate the progression. I think it's the mutual interest in it that really has our dialogue moving forward. You've challenged me with the hard questions I like to think and talk about. I've had a lot of fun exploring these things in great detail.

Originally posted by Prote
Thanks again.

Thank you too, I've gained a lot of insight as well.

Originally posted by Prote
PS - Sorry about the mini rant at the end of the last lot. I knew as soon as the cynicism kicked it, I would get a reaction, it isn't intentional.

No worries, I don't mind being pushed as long as the one doing the pushing doesn't mind push-back.

Originally posted by Prote
Let me put it this way....

I understand that I don't understand.

I know there's tons of stuff I don't understand as well. I think it's that kind of intellectual humility that gives us mind enough to go beyond the boundaries of conventional thought. But! Let's apply the tool called hope, because I believe at the very least you'll come to understand. Call it faith but it's much more useful than giving up or hopelessness. If I'm wrong, what have we lost? If I'm right...what have we gained?

[edit on 28-9-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Shadowflux
I know I'm coming into this particular debate a little late but I need somthing to do as I slack off from work so I thought I'd throw my two cents in. However, I haven't had the time to read through 100 pages of bickering so I'll respond to the original post with my opinions.

I've not read 'all' of the pages, but I did try to read through quite a few to get an understand of where the topics have been going and what is being discussed. This may help you in the future.

Maybe it's just me but it seems as if the atheists are the ones forcing their "belief" on everyone.

Yeah, you're right, it is just you.

Bah, atheists, who needs them.

The World's sanity needs to come from somewhere.

Too bad they don't realize that even they are already saved.

Fantastic. I was really worried about not being saved. You've put my mind at ease.