The Absolute Power of Christianity!

There's more info available than just that brief overview. There's government oversight, external and internal auditing, and certainly members should attend the budget meetings to see exactly what is going where and vote on it. Many have complaints about how much a pastor/preacher/minister makes. Let us then consider demography. In order to be a pastor at the church I attend, they need to have graduated with a Master's degree. More preferred is a PhD, which they'll allow a younger pastor to pursue while they teach. Let's then look at the average income for Master's and PhD degree people:

Business Graduate Program Average $ Offer
(July 2004)
Accounting $46,769
Economics/Finance (incl. Banking) $51,000
Management Information Systems/Business Data Processing $53,850
Marketing/Marketing Mgmt. (incl. mktg. research) $47,000
Education
Elementary Teacher Education $27,000
Arts & Sciences
Social Sciences $46,000
Chemistry $59,043

www.winthrop.edu...

So looks like about $50,000

Now for PhD:

Min: $56,000 , Max: $121,800 with the average ~ $87,850

www.auburn.edu...

Bachelors are here: www.winthrop.edu...

Looks like Plato's system of society and classes are at work! I don't agree this should be the determining factor, but apparently I'm in the minority as many find this an acceptable reason to determine salary. In any case, that would put a pastor at an average of about $87,000/year. Is that a lot? Well, for a PhD, that's par for the course. Can they afford a more expensive car than someone working as a stockperson at Home Depot? Yeah. But, this is only if the church could/would support such a cost....

Also take into consideration for example a Baptist system of churches. In many cases, establishment of a brand-new church is pretty much up to the pastor. The association may swing for the building, but the pastor has to get and maintain all of its membership. Pastor Lankford of Heritage Baptist Church has to work fully time (and then some) as a furniture mover even AFTER he had completed his college just to make ends meet. In addition, he has to provide services/sermons Sunday morning and Wednesday evening. Also, any funerals, weddings or other requested services from the congregation is all on him. Couple that with being a husband and father, you've got one busy dude! I respect this man as a worker, as surely I would collapse with the same responsibilities. Don't like your pastor making an average salary for a PhD? Find a small baptist church... but don't be one of those "needy" people, as they're typically very busy with their two jobs, services, and family.

[edit on 20-10-2006 by saint4God]

i can't remember where i saw it, but it was some programme, and it had a part about a newly built 'super' church dome thing, which cost in the region of $20 million to build..

it's in america, not sure if it's a one off or if there are a few of these places..

maybe your church doesn't rake it in, but some of them are. so much for helping the needy, starving and poor.. yeah we'll help them, just after we've built ourselves a 20 million dollar oversized church dome.

www.commondreams.org...

According to a 2003 article in Forbes Magazine big churches are big business. Researchers found that in 2003 there were 740 mega churches each averaging 6,876 participants. The average net income of each was $4.8 million at the time of the study. The Forbes article states, “[the] entrepreneurial approach has contributed to the explosive growth of mega churches“.

These shouldn't even be allowed to be called ''churches''.. these are businesses, they make millions of dollars.

[edit on 20-10-2006 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i can't remember where i saw it, but it was some programme, and it had a part about a newly built 'super' church dome thing, which cost in the region of $20 million to build..

it's in america, not sure if it's a one off or if there are a few of these places..

O_O Whoa, that's insane! But, I don't doubt it. I do hope it is a one off. I can say when I visited England, most of the churches were pretty huge and highly decorated both Catholic and Protestant alike. I'd be intimidated to approach them if I wasn't a believer. One of my goals was to attend one of the services but didn't get the oppornity. I was curious to see the differences. Most churches here are independant buildings with a seating capacity from 100 to 1,000 people...averaging about 500 just from the ones I'd visited. They vary but are far from ornate I think. Just a building most of the time...sometimes in shopping stripmalls. They're numberous but not large for the most part. I thought the one I went to what huge because I was used to the home-town feel, but compared to the companies, malls, superstores and the like around here, it's not large after all.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
maybe your church doesn't rake it in, but some of them are. so much for helping the needy, starving and poor.. yeah we'll help them, just after we've built ourselves a 20 million dollar oversized church dome.

www.commondreams.org...

According to a 2003 article in Forbes Magazine big churches are big business. Researchers found that in 2003 there were 740 mega churches each averaging 6,876 participants. The average net income of each was $4.8 million at the time of the study. The Forbes article states, “[the] entrepreneurial approach has contributed to the explosive growth of mega churches“.

Ours has about 1,500 people just guessing by knowing seating capacity, 2 services and the like. But still, I don't know who could justify 20 million on a dome. Although Forbes is a fairly reliable source, I can't say the same unbias exists in the link for common dreams.com. I know it says .org, but I'm having doubt as they seem to be "passing around the collection plate" themselves for donations...just like a church. So then common dreams, how many people have they fed?


[edit on 20-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
i can't remember where i saw it, but it was some programme, and it had a part about a newly built 'super' church dome thing, which cost in the region of $20 million to build..

it's in america, not sure if it's a one off or if there are a few of these places..

maybe your church doesn't rake it in, but some of them are. so much for helping the needy, starving and poor.. yeah we'll help them, just after we've built ourselves a 20 million dollar oversized church dome.

www.commondreams.org...

According to a 2003 article in Forbes Magazine big churches are big business. Researchers found that in 2003 there were 740 mega churches each averaging 6,876 participants. The average net income of each was $4.8 million at the time of the study. The Forbes article states, “[the] entrepreneurial approach has contributed to the explosive growth of mega churches“.

[edit on 20-10-2006 by shaunybaby]

This is absolutely disgusting for churches that even have the bear faced cheek to register as charitys to spend so much on a building. Ideed what happened to the poor,hungry, those without shelter or clothes on thier backs, oh i remember it's gone to the new church building.
All for god i SUPPOSE

Originally posted by saint4God
O_O Whoa, that's insane! But, I don't doubt it. I do hope it is a one off. I can say when I visited England, most of the churches were pretty huge and highly decorated both Catholic and Protestant alike. I'd be intimidated to approach them if I wasn't a believer. One of my goals was to attend one of the services but didn't get the oppornity. I was curious to see the differences.

I love our churches and cathedrals (the old style ones), some of the most grand buildings ever to be built. Priceless decorative windows. Huge stone blocks and pillars. Stone floors. Old wooden pews. I can't stand those newly built places, lined with clay bricks, plastic foldaway chairs and still with the distinct smell of paint.

Originally posted by saint4God
Ours has about 1,500 people just guessing by knowing seating capacity, 2 services and the like. But still, I don't know who could justify 20 million on a dome. Although Forbes is a fairly reliable source, I can't say the same unbias exists in the link for common dreams.com. I know it says .org, but I'm having doubt as they seem to be "passing around the collection plate" themselves for donations...just like a church. So then common dreams, how many people have they fed?

It's wierd that to defend yourself or Christianity in general, you have to attack another organisation and say 'well how many people has common dreams fed'.

Could have fed a whole lot of people with $20 million. Could have helped a lot of people with that sort of cash.

Did you manage to catch a glimpse of that 'crystal' mega church? That's just over the top insanity. And the title of the article ''America's Moral Decline and the Rise of False Christianity'' fits absolutly perfectly with the reality of what is happening in America right now. I don't think there's any need to try and put common dreams down by saying it's not a reliable source, heck you're having trouble accepting forbes as a reliable source.. it's like you reluctantly accepted.

[edit on 20-10-2006 by shaunybaby]

This just makes me sick..

www.crystalcathedral.org...

This is not a religion, this isn't even organized religion, this is a BUSINESS. Christianity is big business, especially in America. Give people something to believe in, and they'll open their wallets for you.

www.cathedralgifts.com...

This is the same organisation, however this is their online shop, where you can buy:

Books, Music, Videos, Bibles, Gifts, Kids Stuff, Audio Books..

and..

www.cathedralgifts.com...

You can even buy a whole bunch of CDs from the 'Robert Schuller Institute' conference. I have no idea who Robert Schuller is, but his conference CD set is a reasonable $200.

But hey, a shop alone can't support that massive crystal church they built. They also allow you to make donations, not just donations for the church, these are donations to God. Guess what, you can make online donations, phone donations, or even send your money in the post.. How convenient they've made it for you to send your money to them..

cathedral-gifts.stores.yahoo.net...

You get little set amounts you can donate. It's so lovely of them to already put in the set amount for you to help you choose how much to donate.

''This ministry relies upon the generous donations of donors such as yourself in order to bring the positive message of faith, hope, and love to millions across the globe''.

Yeah, and you can also bring that positive message to millions for free. Where is the positive message behind this? That it costs money to deliver God's message to people? How in the world is that a positive message.

And I love this quote from there even better:

THE JOY OF GIVING

Not just a quote, but a quote in capitol letters. They are not merely 'asking' for donations, they're telling you if you donate, you'll feel good. The whole thing's a sham.

Guess what, you can give anything from $5 all the way up to $10,000. That's so sweet of them to allow you to give them $10,000. Now they wouldn't have that $10,000 dollar donation choice, unless people used it, so I think we can assume that people have donated that much. Where does that money go? Most likely on supporting that massive crystal church of theirs.

But hey, It's really not 'that' over the top..



This is what religion is in America now? They've lost all touch with reality, The Bible and God. Jesus would turn in his grave if he hadn't ascended to heaven.

[edit on 20-10-2006 by shaunybaby]

[edit on 20-10-2006 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I love our churches and cathedrals (the old style ones), some of the most grand buildings ever to be built. Priceless decorative windows. Huge stone blocks and pillars. Stone floors. Old wooden pews.

They are beautiful without a doubt, though only got to see the inside of one chapel which was within Chatsworth. The outside of Westminster Abbey was very...well...that place is huge!

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I can't stand those newly built places, lined with clay bricks, plastic foldaway chairs and still with the distinct smell of paint.

Clay brick if you're lucky over here. Most houses and churches are made of wood with little or no decoration. Many small churches here have those "foldy chairs" and smell like paint. Stone is expensive, decorative windows too. Catholic churches will spend the money for the classic look whereas protestant ones will say, "Does it have a roof? Good! Let's have church".

Originally posted by shaunybaby
It's wierd that to defend yourself or Christianity in general, you have to attack another organisation and say 'well how many people has common dreams fed'.

I think it's just as valid to ask that of a website asking for donations as well as any church that passes a plate for donations. Don't you?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Could have fed a whole lot of people with $20 million. Could have helped a lot of people with that sort of cash.

Yeah, we agree here.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Did you manage to catch a glimpse of that 'crystal' mega church? That's just over the top insanity.

No, was there a picture? I'll go back and check.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
And the title of the article ''America's Moral Decline and the Rise of False Christianity'' fits absolutly perfectly with the reality of what is happening in America right now.

That's a very BIG generalized statement that requires more proofs than the author was willing to provide in their snippet of an article.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I don't think there's any need to try and put common dreams down by saying it's not a reliable source, heck you're having trouble accepting forbes as a reliable source.. it's like you reluctantly accepted.

I know a bit about forbes from other things I've read. There's a language in common dreams that screams bias. I can copy and paste some of these "persuasive writing techniques". For example, just one little piece at the bottom, motive is quite clear:

"Karen Horst Cobb wrote No Longer a Christian and No Longer a Christian - Part II published by CommonDreams.org in the fall of 2004. She is a mother and a grandmother, and with God’s grace, tries to follow the example of Christ as she speaks Christ’s message to the world that there is no Government Issue Jesus (GI-Joe Jesus.) "

They're not unlike many of the hasty overstatements and generalizations found on ATS. Difference is, I can't question them on their article whereas I can question posters here.

Good stuff, good stuff. Where to next?

[edit on 20-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Clay brick if you're lucky over here. Most houses and churches are made of wood with little or no decoration. Many small churches here have those "foldy chairs" and smell like paint. Stone is expensive, decorative windows too. Catholic churches will spend the money for the classic look whereas protestant ones will say, "Does it have a roof? Good! Let's have church".

Stone was rather in abundance when our churches were built, and flint too. You do keep on about the decorative thing being expensive and all, are you saying our old churches are the same as those over-priced megachurches?

Originally posted by saint4God
I think it's just as valid to ask that of a website asking for donations as well as any church that passes a plate for donations. Don't you?

I know many sites that asked for donations, and no, not many of them help poor people or starving people. Normally they have a target of a hundred or so dollars to pay for the servers. Fact remains that $20 million can be better spent, other than to build a super church. Heck, build one for $10 million, atleast that would leave $10 million left over. Wouldn't mind finding out where the initial funding for such a project came from, that's a whole lot of collection plates

Originally posted by saint4God
No, was there a picture? I'll go back and check.

Yeah, there's a few pictures 'external image'. Not sure if I need to upload it to ATS for it to show on here perhaps, but you can click the link and that'll take you to it.

Originally posted by saint4God
That's a very BIG generalized statement that requires more proofs than the author was willing to provide in their snippet of an article.

I've heard a lot and seen a lot. Sure it's not 'all' like that, but for some there is that moral decline. When I visited some relatives in America back in June/July, they were regular church goers, not overly Christian or anything, but they stopped going. Why? Because their church kept handed out George Bush leaflets, talking about George Bush, talking about being pro or anti George Bush.. Since when was church about George Bush? So they stopped going, and were looking for a different church, or waiting until the Bush fad had stopped at their church.

Originally posted by saint4God
I know a bit about forbes from other things I've read. There's a language in common dreams that screams bias. I can copy and paste some of these "persuasive writing techniques". For example, just one little piece at the bottom, motive is quite clear:

"Karen Horst Cobb wrote No Longer a Christian and No Longer a Christian - Part II published by CommonDreams.org in the fall of 2004. She is a mother and a grandmother, and with God’s grace, tries to follow the example of Christ as she speaks Christ’s message to the world that there is no Government Issue Jesus (GI-Joe Jesus.) "

Persuasive writing? Where have I seen that before.. Ohright, that crystal church website:

''THE JOY OF GIVING'' right there on the donations page, where you can donate online, by phone or send by post..

Originally posted by saint4God
Good stuff, good stuff. Where to next?

Not really too sure. Not even sure where we're at, at the moment either

Well as the title says 'the power of christianity'.. $20 million dollar mega churches, church with walls and the roof covered in glass, I think we can safely say Christianity has it's grasp on the American econonmy and is doing very well indeed, and is very powerful. Remember when they wanted to take down the 10 commandments outside that courthouse.. well Christians weren't happy to say the least.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Stone was rather in abundance when our churches were built, and flint too. You do keep on about the decorative thing being expensive and all, are you saying our old churches are the same as those over-priced megachurches?

Not at all. Just saying while I was over there I thought they were huge and intimidating (as I would see a mega-church to be, not meaning cost). Over here stone is pricey, but I got a bit of a history lesson from the friend I was staying here. I did ask "how is it everything is able to be made of stone and thatched roofs?!" because you just don't get that quality here. A shame what happened to Avebury, another place we had visited.

As far as megachurches money goes, the money spent should be proportional to the needs of the attendees. No more, no less. Those needs include food and care to those who don't have it (Deacons fund listed above), missions, counselling, etc.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I know many sites that asked for donations, and no, not many of them help poor people or starving people. Normally they have a target of a hundred or so dollars to pay for the servers.

And the excess? In the U.S. if you own land for your business, you must participate in the CRA (Community Reinvestment Act) and give a certain percentage back to the community for its care and development. Websites get to skate on that one. Not sure why.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Fact remains that $20 million can be better spent, other than to build a super church.

Totally agree. If they need a bigger church, then surely they can just build another for a fraction of the cost. I'm not sure about detailistically how that works, just theory.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Heck, build one for $10 million, atleast that would leave $10 million left over. Wouldn't mind finding out where the initial funding for such a project came from, that's a whole lot of collection plates

Yep, collection plates, willful givers. Taxes are interesting. You don't get a choice.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Yeah, there's a few pictures 'external image'. Not sure if I need to upload it to ATS for it to show on here perhaps, but you can click the link and that'll take you to it.

Ah! There they are. I was looking in the article instead of "external image". I'm still not used to that change in policy here. It's pretty wild. Looks like seating capacity is a few thousand at least.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I've heard a lot and seen a lot. Sure it's not 'all' like that, but for some there is that moral decline.

That's probably fair I think. I don't know, haven't been to too many churches that seemed inconsistent with another or "off-track". But, I haven't gone to the Crystal Cathedral either.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
When I visited some relatives in America back in June/July, they were regular church goers, not overly Christian or anything, but they stopped going. Why? Because their church kept handed out George Bush leaflets, talking about George Bush, talking about being pro or anti George Bush.. Since when was church about George Bush? So they stopped going, and were looking for a different church, or waiting until the Bush fad had stopped at their church.

I think that's a good reason not to go. Interesting point to note, the fed has agents that sit in the pews. This is no secret, they tell the churches essentially, "If you're going to be tax-exempt, then we're going to make sure you don't get into politics." Fair enough, the government is cutting them a break if they don't get involved in it. I'm wondering if that church you went to lost their tax-exempt status already or if they'd never had it to begin with.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Persuasive writing? Where have I seen that before.. Ohright, that crystal church website:

''THE JOY OF GIVING'' right there on the donations page, where you can donate online, by phone or send by post..

I agree that persuasive, but then again isn't bashing others and making generalizations either). What I thought was funky was donating for a bronze statue showing a widow giving. I seem to recall Christ saying something about not doing. Ah, here it is:

"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full." - Matthew 6:2

If a person is giving a report as in a newspaper or magazine, it should not be "persuasive". The facts and numbers should speak for themselves.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Not really too sure. Not even sure where we're at, at the moment either

Hehe, I'm with ya which is why I asked.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Well as the title says 'the power of christianity'.. $20 million dollar mega churches, church with walls and the roof covered in glass, I think we can safely say Christianity has it's grasp on the American econonmy and is doing very well indeed, and is very powerful.

These buildings, money, economy, politics...none of them demonstrate the power of Christianity at all. It's junk, all of it.

"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal."

"Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."

"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." - Matthew 19:16-24. But the story doesn't end there.

Now, what this is the power of Christianity?

"regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord." - Romans 1:3-4

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Now THAT is power

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Remember when they wanted to take down the 10 commandments outside that courthouse.. well Christians weren't happy to say the least.

I think people were more concerned about reason and motive than the act itself. I didn't see them and would not miss them if they were taken down. I would, however, be concerned if the government moves to make Christianity illegal. That day, I would become an outlaw. My eyes would have to be poked out to be kept from reading the Bible, my mouth sewn shut to stop me from talking about God, and my hands broken to keep from typing as I am now. I don't think these things will come to pass in this age however, but some disagree.

[edit on 20-10-2006 by saint4God]

To those who ask why the foot-swelling story was of importance, I've learned the man who wrote it is the quadriplegic person in our group and this reduction in swelling lessened severe pain.

But...miracles rarely occur, right? Here's more from a person in our small group:

"Over two years ago, I heard from the Lord during prayer and he stated I was pregnant with a Boy. The Lord told me he would do great things for the Kingdom! I questioned whether I heard this and shared the information with my spiritual mentor (copied). More than four weeks later, my pregnancy was confirmed and in my 18th week during an ultrasound it became apparent I was carrying a boy
I later failed the triple screen for Downes Syndrome (I stood on the word and God gave me grace and I did not worry about this). Months later, they found a hole in my son's heart. A month after delivery, they confirmed that Thaddeus had Downes Syndrome and had to have major surgery on his heart. More than 2 months after surgery, the doctors would not confirm whether he would live or die.
My happy and smiling disposition I received by grace for the first time fell. I prayed the hardest I did in my life and the Lord answered, the Lord answered!!! ****, the Lord answered with the scripture below. Thaddeus is now 2 years old. He is healed. We go for YEARLY heart check ups with no issues.
GOD IS WONDERFUL.

I don't know what you are going through......But he does. What you give freely is given unto you.. The word below are for you. My testimony is proof THE LORD ANSWERS....."

There's your proof. What? It's not "proof enough for you"? Why is that? Oh, I know. Because it did not happen to you...but it certainly can . What's better than a healed body? Eternal life. That's the power God can give, and it is absolute. Want to receive the free gift of eternal life? Send U2U for details.

[edit on 31-10-2006 by saint4God]

Please post your evidence that it was the work of God and not anything else. Thanks.

Want to receive the free gift of eternal life? Send U2U for details.

I did that. There are no details.


[edit on 31/10/06 by Prote]

Originally posted by Prote
Please post your evidence that it was the work of God and not anything else. Thanks.

Please post your evidence that it was NOT the work of God and something else. I've provided the evidence for (via testimony and facts), now someone provide against.

Originally posted by Prote
I did that. There are no details.

There are details. Some people aren't interested in sincerely pursuing them. For those who don't care, don't bother U2U'ing.

[edit on 31-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Please post your evidence that it was NOT the work of God and something else. I've provided the evidence for (via testimony and facts), now someone provide against.

I'm pretty sure that's the wrong way round. I posted testimony of a God that is not good. You claimed otherwise but provided nothing else. I am still waiting but zip. Am I still waiting for this miracle?

There are details. Some people aren't interested in sincerely pursuing them.

What details? Please list them.

Quite frankly I'm getting tired of these so called miracles you keep posting saint. I could post a picture of a ufo.. it doesn't mean it's aliens. I could post a picture of a ghost.. it doesn't mean ghosts are real. I could post accounts of mediums contacting dead people.. it doesn't mean they really do. I could probably find more accounts of faith healers being proved right, and miracles happening etc.. but it doesn't mean they really do..

First it's some swollen ankle. Now it's a baby with a hole in it's heart, that gets surgery and now is better.. Oh thank the lord! How about thanking the doctors that performed the surgery? THEY SAVED THE BABY!

There's a huge problem with these accounts and that is that there is no proof whatsoever. It's hearsay at best. You always ask for such detailed proof for the theory of evolution, yet when it comes to God little hearsay accounts of people getting better are proof enough. I've never seen such hypocrisy.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Quite frankly I'm getting tired of these so called miracles you keep posting saint. I could post a picture of a ufo.. it doesn't mean it's aliens. I could post a picture of a ghost.. it doesn't mean ghosts are real. I could post accounts of mediums contacting dead people.. it doesn't mean they really do. I could probably find more accounts of faith healers being proved right, and miracles happening etc.. but it doesn't mean they really do..

It was in response to the idea of miracles being rare chance that don't really happen to real people...and in fact they're not chance and do happen to real people.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
First it's some swollen ankle.

Painful swelling for a quadriplegic. Don't know why you must trivialize it. It's almost offensive being that I know the guy and see him on a weekly basis.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Now it's a baby with a hole in it's heart, that gets surgery and now is better.. Oh thank the lord! How about thanking the doctors that performed the surgery? THEY SAVED THE BABY!

Think again . The testimony did not say "thank the doctors!" and for good reason. The outcome may have been different if that was what was going to be said afterwards. I can post medical doctor's testimonies witnessing miracles that they know they didn't do if you like.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
There's a huge problem with these accounts and that is that there is no proof whatsoever. It's hearsay at best.

Testimony + fact.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
You always ask for such detailed proof for the theory of evolution,

Because there is no testimony + fact. I'd like to hear from the person who says "I have evolved!" and then submit the data of the before and after.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
yet when it comes to God little hearsay accounts of people getting better are proof enough.

Belief in God is not a science. Biology is.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I've never seen such hypocrisy.

Make whatever accusations you like. If I have to diagram the difference between believing in God and science, then we have a much larger problem than I initially thought.

[edit on 31-10-2006 by saint4God]

Oh but the difference is quite simple.....

Belief is InTangible.. having no direct effect, it does nothing, until you manifest it VIA your BIOLOGICAL body.. therefore.... Belief is a concept, Science is the Tangible measurements of BIOLOGICAL systems....

What is REAL(Tangible) is what we DO with our Intangible thoughts.

Originally posted by saint4God
It was in response to the idea of miracles being rare chance that don't really happen to real people...and in fact they're not chance and do happen to real people.

Says who? You? How convenient.

Originally posted by saint4God
Painful swelling for a quadriplegic. Don't know why you must trivialize it. It's almost offensive being that I know the guy and see him on a weekly basis.

Good for you. Now where's the miracle? Where's the proof that God healed him? Case and point, there is no proof God healed him. Even if his ankle did get better, that's not proof that God healed it, nor is it proof that prayer works.

Originally posted by saint4God
Think again

. The testimony did not say "thank the doctors!" and for good reason. The outcome may have been different if that was what was going to be said afterwards. I can post medical doctor's testimonies witnessing miracles that they know they didn't do if you like.

So just because someone defies the odds, gets better, we now attribute that to some devine intervention of a God? You can post all the little stories you like about healing ankles and babies getting better and doctors saying 'wow it's a miracle he's still alive'.. it doesn't mean anything. It is not proof that there is a God at work here. The only thing this shows is that yes people do get better, despite long odds.

Originally posted by saint4God
Testimony + fact.

It's a fact the baby was ill (hole in heart). As far as we know, this is a fact.

It is a fact that doctors operated on this baby. Again so far as we know this happened.

Now as for the baby getting better and still being alive, this is also a fact. However, it is not a fact that God had anything to do with this.

Originally posted by saint4God
Make whatever accusations you like. If I have to diagram the difference between believing in God and science, then we have a much larger problem than I initially thought.

No the only problem is you attributing everything to God. Wow a baby got better, omg someone beat cancer and I prayed for them 6 months ago.. it must have been my prayers that cured them!!!!

Originally posted by saint4God
Because there is no testimony + fact. I'd like to hear from the person who says "I have evolved!" and then submit the data of the before and after.

But there is the testimony, we as humans are the testimony to evolution, as is every living thing around. The fact is what we dig up, that is the before, we are the after.

[edit on 31-10-2006 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Says who? You? How convenient.

Me? This discussion is not me. I'll say it again: Me don't mattah.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Good for you.

Not good for me. Good for him.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Now where's the miracle? Where's the proof that God healed him? Case and point, there is no proof God healed him. Even if his ankle did get better, that's not proof that God healed it, nor is it proof that prayer works.

Before + After + Testimony. You'd probably have to figure out probabilites and ask how many improbabilites have to occur before they're no longer coincidences if you wanted to approach this scientifically. I have already done this. No need for me to doing again, I've proved it via this exercise to myself and would encourage others to do the same.

Originally posted by saint4God
So just because someone defies the odds, gets better, we now attribute that to some devine intervention of a God?

Nope and is not what I've said nor saying.

Originally posted by saint4God
You can post all the little stories you like about healing ankles and babies getting better and doctors saying 'wow it's a miracle he's still alive'.. it doesn't mean anything.

It doesn't? Oh wait, that's because it doesn't effect YOUR life, right? To the people who are affected, it means everything. May no-one ever say your sufferings or miracles don't mean anything as quickly and easily as you say the same for others.

Originally posted by saint4God
It is not proof that there is a God at work here. The only thing this shows is that yes people do get better, despite long odds.

Hehe, do the math.

Originally posted by saint4God
It's a fact the baby was ill (hole in heart). As far as we know, this is a fact.

It is a fact that doctors operated on this baby. Again so far as we know this happened.

Now as for the baby getting better and still being alive, this is also a fact.

Glad we can agree on these points.

Originally posted by saint4God
However, it is not a fact that God had anything to do with this.

Does the possibility exist?

Originally posted by saint4God
No the only problem is you attributing everything to God.

If one believes that God is the creator, that would be a natural conclusion.

Originally posted by saint4God
Wow a baby got better, omg someone beat cancer and I prayed for them 6 months ago.. it must have been my prayers that cured them!!!!

Can you discount that possibility? Also, prayer is not about what YOU do, prayer is about what HE does. This should be apparent in all the testimonies I have posted.

Originally posted by saint4God
But there is the testimony, we as humans are the testimony to evolution,

Tell me you have experienced evolution.

Originally posted by saint4God
as is every living thing around. The fact is what we dig up, that is the before, we are the after.

We have to have faith that the before is connected to the after. Again, no testimony.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Before + After + Testimony. You'd probably have to figure out probabilites and ask how many improbabilites have to occur before they're no longer coincidences if you wanted to approach this scientifically. I have already done this. No need for me to doing again, I've proved it via this exercise to myself and would encourage others to do the same.

There's a disease that makes people age quicker.. I'm unsure what the name of it is.. However, there's one family, I believe it was in India and they had a good number, say 5 or more children with this disease. The chances of having this disease is high up in the millions, there's only a handful of cases in the world. The chances of various people in the same family having the disease is even higher. Just because the chance and probability says it might not or probably won't happen.. It doesn't mean it never does and this does not constitute in anyway to there being a god, just because the unlikely happens.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
So just because someone defies the odds, gets better, we now attribute that to some devine intervention of a God?

Originally posted by saint4God
Nope and is not what I've said nor saying.

Yes it is, that's exactly what you've been saying.

Originally posted by saint4God
It doesn't? Oh wait, that's because it doesn't effect YOUR life, right? To the people who are affected, it means everything. May no-one ever say your sufferings or miracles don't mean anything as quickly and easily as you say the same for others.

Too right it doesn't affect my life, so what's the point in posting it? Testimony is useless unless witnessed. You could get thousands of accounts of alien UFO sightings.. That they've been probed in their little spaceships.. Yet these testimonies mean absolutely nothing to anyone else. Other than to believers who desperately need something to hold on to.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
It is not proof that there is a God at work here. The only thing this shows is that yes people do get better, despite long odds.

Originally posted by saint4God
Hehe, do the math.

Okay, so everything that's unlikely to happen we should now attribute to God if it does happen? Just because they're long odds? Ya know if you get enough people with cancer, and get enough people around each cancer patient's bed, and have them pray for each cancer patient.. Eventually someone is going to get better.. And this does not mean God is at work. This is odds at work, that's all.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
However, it is not a fact that God had anything to do with this.

Originally posted by saint4God
Does the possibility exist?

Ofcourse. But it's not fact. For a person that demands so much fact from everything else, it's hypocritical of you to take other things on faith.

Originally posted by saint4God
Can you discount that possibility? Also, prayer is not about what YOU do, prayer is about what HE does. This should be apparent in all the testimonies I have posted.

I read about a study on prayer. I'll try and find it for you. The study was with two groups of patients, with life threatening illnesses. One group was prayed for and one group wasn't. The group that wasn't prayed for actually did better. The group that was prayed for got worse. The reason was that they weren't getting better, and this put strain on their already weak bodies and minds, because the prayers weren't working.. It in fact made them worse. So despite your faith in prayer, there is no factual evidence or even evidence whatsoever to support any testimony or claim that prayer actually works.

Originally posted by saint4God
Tell me you have experienced evolution.

Elaborate.

Originally posted by saint4God
We have to have faith that the before is connected to the after. Again, no testimony.

No faith at all. If you can look at all the evidence and all the connections and still not believe in evolution then there's really no hope at all for you. The problem is that you've got such a mind set that God exists and that the bible is all true, that you can't open up to such a possibility of evolution. I could at any point in the day open up to the possibility of a God/s.. When the shoes on the other foot, you can't do the same.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
There's a disease that makes people age quicker.. I'm unsure what the name of it is.. However, there's one family, I believe it was in India and they had a good number, say 5 or more children with this disease. The chances of having this disease is high up in the millions, there's only a handful of cases in the world. The chances of various people in the same family having the disease is even higher. Just because the chance and probability says it might not or probably won't happen.. It doesn't mean it never does and this does not constitute in anyway to there being a god, just because the unlikely happens.

You're still working with low probabilities...not conceivably impossibilities. Let's go to the next level please.

Originally posted by shaunybaby

Originally posted by shaunybaby
So just because someone defies the odds, gets better, we now attribute that to some devine intervention of a God?

Originally posted by saint4God
Nope and is not what I've said nor saying.

Yes it is, that's exactly what you've been saying.

Nope and is not what I've said nor saying. Really shauny, did you expect to get anywhere with that last statement?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Too right it doesn't affect my life, so what's the point in posting it?

Because it CAN affect your life. Perhaps it didn't, perhaps it doesn't, but it can.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Testimony is useless unless witnessed.

I've seen and experienced enough of them to know. I therefore hope you will as well.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
You could get thousands of accounts of alien UFO sightings.. That they've been probed in their little spaceships.. Yet these testimonies mean absolutely nothing to anyone else. Other than to believers who desperately need something to hold on to.

I've never had anyone say they can help me get evidence of alien UFO's. I am here to help others get their evidence of God.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Okay, so everything that's unlikely to happen we should now attribute to God if it does happen? Just because they're long odds? Ya know if you get enough people with cancer, and get enough people around each cancer patient's bed, and have them pray for each cancer patient.. Eventually someone is going to get better..

I'm talking about defying probability, not attributing probability to God.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
And this does not mean God is at work. This is odds at work, that's all.

Have fun with the religion of luck.

Originally posted by shaunybaby

Originally posted by saint4God
Does the possibility exist?

Ofcourse. But it's not fact. For a person that demands so much fact from everything else, it's hypocritical of you to take other things on faith.

My belief in God is not based on blind faith. I needed to see in order to have proof. I did it the wrong way and was very stupid in my approach. I hope others don't make this mistake. I find it a miracle that anyone can believe without seeing yet still be right. I admire and respect it, though don't know how it works.

Originally posted by saint4God
I read about a study on prayer. I'll try and find it for you. The study was with two groups of patients, with life threatening illnesses. One group was prayed for and one group wasn't. The group that wasn't prayed for actually did better. The group that was prayed for got worse. The reason was that they weren't getting better, and this put strain on their already weak bodies and minds, because the prayers weren't working.. It in fact made them worse. So despite your faith in prayer, there is no factual evidence or even evidence whatsoever to support any testimony or claim that prayer actually works.

Maybe God won't prove Himself via this doubtful testing? That you'd have to ask Him. This was a very cruel experient towards the people that weren't prayed for I think. How could anyone put someone's life on the line by refusing to pray for them? I'm truly questioning the faith of those who prayed for one group and not the other. Sounds down right malicious to me. Also, I seriously doubt the "control group" was equal in every way, therefore would not be a sound scientific study just based on what you've presented here.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by saint4God
Tell me you have experienced evolution.

Elaborate.

You've stated there is testimony from evolution. That is, something that you've experienced. I'd like to hear about your experience in evolving. What were you before? A fish? An ape? How are you different now? How did the change take place? What were the mechanisms for this change?

Originally posted by saint4God
No faith at all. If you can look at all the evidence and all the connections and still not believe in evolution

I have to believe in evolution because there is insufficient facts. Science is not supposed to be a belief, it should be data.

Originally posted by saint4God
then there's really no hope at all for you.

On the contrary, hope is a tool I use. Hope is not a tool that science uses. Hope is unseen, intangible and has no place in science. It does, however, have a lot to do with God.

Originally posted by saint4God
The problem is that you've got such a mind set that God exists and that the bible is all true, that you can't open up to such a possibility of evolution.

We've had this discussion tons of times on the evolution thread. It doesn't belong here.

Originally posted by saint4God
I could at any point in the day open up to the possibility of a God/s.. When the shoes on the other foot, you can't do the same.

If you're asking me to have belief and hope in science, you're right that I'm not going to have it. Science does not claim belief and hope as its foundation nor tools. That is not what science is. God, on the other hand, tells us that belief and hope are valuable tools that can be used in daily life...and they work. There, yet again, is your difference between science and believing in God.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by saint4God]