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The Absolute Power of Christianity!

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posted on Oct, 13 2006 @ 12:52 PM
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Originally posted by Prote
saint, sorry I haven't answered your last post, I have been deluged with disasters and one of the things that has lifted me through this time is chuckling away at the irony. I kid you not, this is since my last post (and yes, I've left stuff out)...

Oct 1. ....


I was concerned and missed the dialogue, looks like rightfully so too. No worries, certainly what's going on in family and home is more important than a discussion board I would think. That is an incredible list of disasters and would like to do more to help if I can.


Originally posted by Prote
I would turn to God but I'm afraid he'll do something REALLY bad, and I fancy giving that a miss for a while. I just hope it doesn't rain for a few weeks while I sort the crap out but england in october is not the driest place to be. ho hum.


I'm glad the option is still on the table, but don't understand why you think He would do something really bad.


Originally posted by Prote
I wrote this out yesterday but I usually delete posts before I post them, writing them just helps me get things out but I've been so hacked off with whoever's in charge.


It is actually pretty normal to feel that way during hard times. Interestingly enough, we're not willing to credit God for the good times, but have no problem crediting him with the bad ones.


Originally posted by Prote
Anyway, If you take each event individually, they are all things that can, and do happen. When they come wrapped up in a ribbon like this, we see probabilities that you would use to define a miracle and thus proof of God. If this "series of unfortunate events" are proof of God, how is this proof of a good God?


You've survived all of them. And, you can have help getting through these situations should you elect to do so. It sounds like "I need a miracle" and don't see any reason why He would be unwilling to do so...should you be willing to earnestly ask. Have you heard of the book of Job? I think given these circumstances you and he would be able to relate very well. He lost all he had. His livestock, his crops, his friends cursed and left him, members of his family died, and was reduced to disease. His life and legacy seemed to be coming to an end through no fault of his own, but there was rescue.


Originally posted by Prote
You freely admit that you don't have the answers so how can you be sure you have the right path?


I admit that I do not have ALL the answers, but I know who does and can help with establishing that connection.


[edit on 13-10-2006 by saint4God]




posted on Oct, 13 2006 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
Death and disease is a fact of life, I can live with it.


Originally posted by saint4God
And yet it is your complaint. Why?


The complaint is that you believe there's an all powerful being that looks over us, which you call God, you also claim that he heals people, swollen ankles, tumors etc, yet people still die from diseases, hence God chooses to let them die, and chooses to save others. Why not just rid disease once and for all?

Why seemingly play some sort of game where God heals some people, but lets other people suffer for their whole lives?

There's a little thing that would suit here:



-Epicurus was a Greek philosopher and he posed the question: do the gods exist?

-Remember he predates Christianity by nearly a 1000 years.


Theorem - God does not exist.

-Proof

-Consider the notion of an omnipotent and benign God and his willingness to eliminate 'evil'

Either:

(i) He is willing, but unable – therefore He is not omnipotent;

(ii) He is able, but unwilling – therefore He is malevolent;

(iii) He is able and willing – whence comes Evil?

(iv) He is neither able nor willing – then why call Him God?

(Epicurus 341 B.C. – 271 B.C.)



Originally posted by saint4God
Not at all. I was saying/meaning it's selfish to ask for someone to live when they're going to suffer more or greater later on. And, selfish to want them to live when they could be in heaven.


So you can only use the power of prayer to heal so long as the person isn't on their death bed? Otherwise according to you it'd be 'selfish', which is one of the things that God won't answer to if that's in your prayer. Hence, anyone supposedly 'saved' on their deathbed, by prayer/miracle, cannot have been, because it would have been a selfish prayer. Thanks for clearing that up.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by shaunybaby]



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
The complaint is that you believe there's an all powerful being that looks over us, which you call God, you also claim that he heals people, swollen ankles, tumors etc, yet people still die from diseases, hence God chooses to let them die, and chooses to save others. Why not just rid disease once and for all?


He will. *looks at the clock* How much time you got?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Why seemingly play some sort of game where God heals some people, but lets other people suffer for their whole lives?


Not a game at all. It was the ancient polytheistic Greeks who believe gods play at whims, according to their moods and regardless of human sufferings. This is not my contension which is that all these things are towards His plan or purpose whether we understand what that purpose is or not.

Okay, this I addressed before. It wasn't on this thread? Alright then, here again is the answer:


Originally posted by shaunybaby
There's a little thing that would suit here:



-Epicurus was a Greek philosopher and he posed the question: do the gods exist?

-Remember he predates Christianity by nearly a 1000 years.

Theorem - God does not exist.

-Proof

-Consider the notion of an omnipotent and benign God and his willingness to eliminate 'evil'

Either:

(i) He is willing, but unable – therefore He is not omnipotent;


Not the case.


Originally posted by shaunybaby

(ii) He is able, but unwilling – therefore He is malevolent;


The "therefore" is under the assumption that WE as humans know what is ultimately best, that WE know any goods that can come from sufferings, or that WE understand what the plan for the universe is. These "WE" statements are presumptious eliteisms.


Originally posted by shaunybaby

(iii) He is able and willing – whence comes Evil?


I don't see where He is willing in all cases, as you've made clear.


Originally posted by shaunybaby


(iv) He is neither able nor willing – then why call Him God?


This would be true if it were the case.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
(Epicurus 341 B.C. – 271 B.C.)


Interestingly enough from the classic Greek school of thought as well, pre-Christ's arrival on earth. Do you think Christ was answering these human dilemnas?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So you can only use the power of prayer to heal so long as the person isn't on their death bed?


I don't see that restriction anywhere.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Otherwise according to you it'd be 'selfish', which is one of the things that God won't answer to if that's in your prayer.


I cannot say what He will and will not do, only that this is a motivation we're told is not the right one.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Hence, anyone supposedly 'saved' on their deathbed, by prayer/miracle, cannot have been, because it would have been a selfish prayer. Thanks for clearing that up.


Saving oneself more than likely a selfish motivation, as it was for me. But, after being saved and understanding that we're to put our selfish ways behind us, we're to be responsible enough to be selfless and understand that God's soveriegnty takes precedence over what we think is right. That requires trust, hope, faith, love. All key elements in miraculous occurrences.

[edit on 16-10-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
Why seemingly play some sort of game where God heals some people, but lets other people suffer for their whole lives?


Excellent question indeed, and you can get some complex responces if you go into theology as to why this is...pretty much leading into who can know the mind of God.

What is interesting is when I read/see (via dvd) the good news of Jesus...he is gentle, so compassionate, healing everyone and having compassion. So there does seem to be a problem.
Either Jesus is disconnected, or those following him cant tap into his power...or all of this is not how it seems, and Jesus teachings are samples of a utopia idea so to speak, and those that control (science/government) cures withhold it from those that they choose. (Call it natural selection.
)

I think all in all there has to be somthing in man that can resolve this issue...after all we are kind of helpless and give our power away to all kinds of authority.

Who knows..

Peace

Dalen



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
He will. *looks at the clock* How much time you got?


''He will''..

So from this I can assume 'he's able, but unwilling'.. at the moment..


Originally posted by saint4God
Not a game at all. It was the ancient polytheistic Greeks who believe gods play at whims, according to their moods and regardless of human sufferings. This is not my contension which is that all these things are towards His plan or purpose whether we understand what that purpose is or not.


Noah's Ark?

Surely that's an 'act' on human's actions/moods, which then led to their suffering. .


Originally posted by saint4God
Okay, this I addressed before. It wasn't on this thread? Alright then, here again is the answer:


Might have been, it's a pretty long thread. I thought it suited the topic at hand though, with God's 'willingness to eliminate evil(disease)'..


Originally posted by shaunybaby
(i) He is willing, but unable – therefore He is not omnipotent;


Originally posted by saint4God
Not the case.


Only if you say he refuses to cure some/all disease because it's for the greater good and part of something we don't know about (plan b)..

However, the fact remains that disease goes un-cured by God, hence it is plausable that he's unable..


Originally posted by shaunybaby
(ii) He is able, but unwilling – therefore He is malevolent;


Originally posted by saint4God
The "therefore" is under the assumption that WE as humans know what is ultimately best, that WE know any goods that can come from sufferings, or that WE understand what the plan for the universe is. These "WE" statements are presumptious eliteisms.


The whole four statements are presumptions, each it's own presumption. However, it comes down to the fact that it must be one of those four, even though you don't want to choose any of them..


Originally posted by shaunybaby
(iii) He is able and willing – whence comes Evil?


Originally posted by saint4God
I don't see where He is willing in all cases, as you've made clear.


So he is able and willing, according to you, otherwise you wouldn't call him God. However, he is unwilling in some cases. Therefore, 'whence comes evil'? There should be no evil if this is the case. The fact that there is evil, shows God is not able and willing.


Originally posted by saint4God
Interestingly enough from the classic Greek school of thought as well, pre-Christ's arrival on earth. Do you think Christ was answering these human dilemnas?


No, I don't think a turn of the milenia carpenter was answering human dilemnas before his arrival.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So you can only use the power of prayer to heal so long as the person isn't on their death bed?


Originally posted by saint4God
I don't see that restriction anywhere.


You said such a prayer would be selfish. That's one thing God/Jesus doesn't answer to.. Selfish prayers.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
So from this I can assume 'he's able, but unwilling'.. at the moment..


That works.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Noah's Ark?

Surely that's an 'act' on human's actions/moods, which then led to their suffering. .


A few things. First, the Bible doesn't speak of the extent of their suffering, though it does speak of the suffering it caused to God prior to the event: "The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain."

Wow, it says every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all of the time. If we had a report card, it'd be bigger than an F, it would be a 0%, save Noah and family.


Originally posted by shaunybaby:
Might have been, it's a pretty long thread. I thought it suited the topic at hand though, with God's 'willingness to eliminate evil(disease)'..


Fair enough, it might have been someone else who brought up the same thing as well.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Only if you say he refuses to cure some/all disease because it's for the greater good and part of something we don't know about (plan b)..


Sure, I can say that and will, "he refuses to cure some/all disease because it's for the greater good and part of something we don't know about (plan b)."


Originally posted by shaunybaby
However, the fact remains that disease goes un-cured by God, hence it is plausable that he's unable..


Not unable, unwilling, remember?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
The whole four statements are presumptions, each it's own presumption.


Totally agree.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
However, it comes down to the fact that it must be one of those four, even though you don't want to choose any of them..


I chose one.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So he is able and willing,


Sometimes, and if it is according to His plan.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
according to you, otherwise you wouldn't call him God. However, he is unwilling in some cases. Therefore, 'whence comes evil'? There should be no evil if this is the case. The fact that there is evil, shows God is not able and willing.


I don't know how you figure he's not able, but ah well. Now you want to apply 2 statements instead of one of the four? What's the deal? I wasn't allowed to do that.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
No, I don't think a turn of the milenia carpenter was answering human dilemnas before his arrival.


Hehe, you think the timeline was started as a "coincidence" of Jesus? Other way around, "Anno Domini" means "In the year of our Lord". And, you're forgetting (or choosing not to remember, I know not which) what else he did apparently.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
You said such a prayer would be selfish. That's one thing God/Jesus doesn't answer to.. Selfish prayers.


I did not say He would not answer it, I said the motivation is incorrect. If we're unbelievers, it is very difficult (some say impossible) to have a correct motivation. If you ask to receive Christ, which indeed is selfish to save yourself, and believe, then you can learn that the motivation should not be "you". It's not about "you" nor is it about "me", it's about Him. But, first one would have to believe in order to see that. Post-Christiandom, the "me me me" stuff should diminish. For example, though Sean was prayed for by others (and perhaps himself), after the healing what did he say? He did not say "I healed me" or "I am great" or "I have special powers". He thanked God for giving him a miracle and spread the word of Christ's greatness, not his own. Personally I don't like praying for myself, but when I'm broken of any other help or care, more than likely I'll ask to continue serving Him here. If He says, "Nope, you're coming to heaven" well, how cool is that?

[edit on 17-10-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
So from this I can assume 'he's able, but unwilling'.. at the moment..


Originally posted by saint4God
That works.


Your God is unwilling to end all evil/disease/death?

Doesn't sound like a God I want to be looking up to at all..


Originally posted by shaunybaby
However, the fact remains that disease goes un-cured by God, hence it is plausable that he's unable..


Originally posted by saint4God
Not unable, unwilling, remember?


'Plausable' that he's unable.

In your mind he's unwilling, because if he's unable, then why call him God.

Hence, you're stance on him being unwilling is impaired by your belief in God.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
The whole four statements are presumptions, each it's own presumption.


Originally posted by saint4God
Totally agree.


You seem to agree with him being able, but unwilling, however ignore the fact that God is therefore malevolent.

You see his unwillingness to eliminate evil as part of his plan, and therefore seemlingly 'okay' with you.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
No, I don't think a turn of the milenia carpenter was answering human dilemnas before his arrival.


Originally posted by saint4God
Hehe, you think the timeline was started as a "coincidence" of Jesus? Other way around, "Anno Domini" means "In the year of our Lord". And, you're forgetting (or choosing not to remember, I know not which) what else he did apparently.


'Apparently' he did miracles, preached, had a little cult following of disciples etc.. and it wasn't like he was the only self-proclaimed messiah at that time.

Was he not also born closer to 4 or 6 AD? I've read a few pieces here and there that suggest that.



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
Your God is unwilling to end all evil/disease/death?


At this time, that is evident.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Doesn't sound like a God I want to be looking up to at all..


Certainly your choice, though reality doesn't change according to our preferences. Also, death is not the end. It is the end of the beginning.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
'Plausable' that he's unable.


Oh, I see. Thought you meant this was what I'm stating, though I'm not.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
In your mind he's unwilling, because if he's unable, then why call him God.


Right. More specifically, what can a creator make that cannot be undone?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Hence, you're stance on him being unwilling is impaired by your belief in God.


Not belief alone, but I think I get your meaning.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
You seem to agree with him being able, but unwilling, however ignore the fact that God is therefore malevolent.


Not ignoring. The allowance of evil doesn't not make one evil. Case-in-point, the CIA allows hosts of terrorist websites to function. The purpose is the catch the larger culprits instead of taking out the smaller guys. In the end though, the goal is to bring justice to all. The difference is God has the ability to bring justice for all on their last day of planet earth.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
You see his unwillingness to eliminate evil as part of his plan, and therefore seemlingly 'okay' with you.


I don't make the rules, sorry. I don't like evil at all, but understand/respect/trust that there's more going on than I can see at the moment.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
'Apparently' he did miracles, preached, had a little cult following of disciples etc.. and it wasn't like he was the only self-proclaimed messiah at that time.


He wasn't self-proclaimed as God said, "this is my son, with whom I'm well pleased"...or is that part being overlooked? Yet in all the things you've mentioned, the reason, the most important part is left out. This is that he died for our sins, paying the penalty for them, so that those who believe/trust in him have eternal life.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Was he not also born closer to 4 or 6 AD? I've read a few pieces here and there that suggest that.


Same here. Not sure entirely. Either way, the "AD" you're using is "Anno Domini", "In the year of our Lord" which commemorates the even of Jesus' birth on earth.

[edit on 17-10-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 17 2006 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
Your God is unwilling to end all evil/disease/death?


Originally posted by saint4God
At this time, that is evident.


I guess this is how God shows his unconditional love.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Doesn't sound like a God I want to be looking up to at all..


Originally posted by saint4God
Certainly your choice, though reality doesn't change according to our preferences.


It is my choice, and why would anyone purposely choose to 'love' this God that refuses to elimate evil/disease, even though he's very able?


Originally posted by saint4God
Right. More specifically, what can a creator make that cannot be undone?


A boiled egg?


Originally posted by saint4God
Not ignoring. The allowance of evil doesn't not make one evil. Case-in-point, the CIA allows hosts of terrorist websites to function. The purpose is the catch the larger culprits instead of taking out the smaller guys. In the end though, the goal is to bring justice to all. The difference is God has the ability to bring justice for all on their last day of planet earth.


Personally comparing God to the tactics of CIA would be a major dissapointment. Take out the I and leave the CA, and you may have something closer to describing that organisation.

As for God's unwillingness to eliminate evil, although it doesn't automatically make one evil, the fact that he is very 'able' to eliminate evil adds to the support for him being malevolent.


Originally posted by saint4God
He wasn't self-proclaimed as God said, "this is my son, with whom I'm well pleased"...or is that part being overlooked?


Sorry. Who said that? Oh right, it's written down in The Bible, therefore it MUST be correct.


Originally posted by saint4God
Yet in all the things you've mentioned, the reason, the most important part is left out. This is that he died for our sins, paying the penalty for them, so that those who believe/trust in him have eternal life.


You don't even know who/what you're putting your belief/trust in. Heck, our representation of Jesus is a white feminine european looking man with long flowing hair. You then read the four, of the possible 50 or more gospels that could have been in the bible, as 'proof' this man did miracles, rose from the dead and died for our sins. That's like putting your trust in North Korea to stop their nuclear testing. Illogical to say the least.


Originally posted by saint4God
Same here. Not sure entirely. Either way, the "AD" you're using is "Anno Domini", "In the year of our Lord" which commemorates the even of Jesus' birth on earth.


And?

Just shows Christian influence on our western calendars at one point in time. So much so, that they decided to have a start point at the birth of Jesus. Things aren't so Christianised anymore, but we can't exactly change our date/calendar system.



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
I guess this is how God shows his unconditional love.


Those whom He loves, He loves unconditionally. Those He doesn't...well:

"I have loved you," says the LORD.
"But you ask, 'How have you loved us?'
"Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" the LORD says. "Yet I have loved Jacob, but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his mountains into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals." - Malachi 1:2-3

"Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!" - Romans 9:13-14


Originally posted by shaunybaby
It is my choice, and why would anyone purposely choose to 'love' this God that refuses to elimate evil/disease, even though he's very able?


Because they understand/respect that He has a plan. And, God is not the one responsible for evil.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
A boiled egg?


You did not create the egg, you've merely boiled it.


Originally posted by shaunybaby

Originally posted by saint4God
Not ignoring. The allowance of evil doesn't not make one evil. Case-in-point, the CIA allows hosts of terrorist websites to function. The purpose is the catch the larger culprits instead of taking out the smaller guys. In the end though, the goal is to bring justice to all. The difference is God has the ability to bring justice for all on their last day of planet earth.


Personally comparing God to the tactics of CIA would be a major dissapointment. Take out the I and leave the CA, and you may have something closer to describing that organisation.


I shall refrain from usuing analogies if you're unwilling to comprehend the concepts associated with them.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
As for God's unwillingness to eliminate evil, although it doesn't automatically make one evil, the fact that he is very 'able' to eliminate evil adds to the support for him being malevolent.


I see you've chosen to ignore the point.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Sorry. Who said that?


God.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Oh right, it's written down in The Bible, therefore it MUST be correct.


Again, you don't have to accept merely written words, you can go to the Source. As I said before, be not surprised if you get send back to the Book.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
You don't even know who/what you're putting your belief/trust in.


Surely I do. Why would I do so otherwise?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Heck, our representation of Jesus is a white feminine european looking man with long flowing hair. You then read the four, of the possible 50 or more gospels that could have been in the bible, as 'proof' this man did miracles, rose from the dead and died for our sins. That's like putting your trust in North Korea to stop their nuclear testing. Illogical to say the least.


As stated before, I required evidence and got it.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
And?


And the misrepresentation of the start of the timeline by the cause being the effect is inaccurate.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Just shows Christian influence on our western calendars at one point in time. So much so, that they decided to have a start point at the birth of Jesus. Things aren't so Christianised anymore, but we can't exactly change our date/calendar system.


Ah, so there IS something mankind can't do. I appreciate that acknowledgement. I submit there are many many many more things that man can't do and therefore are not god. By the 4 statement proof-system you'd stated earlier, it establishes as such. Process of elimination is a slow way to pursue the truth, but if necessary we can do that.

[edit on 18-10-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Because they understand/respect that He has a plan. And, God is not the one responsible for evil.


That's like the police just standing by, not doing anything, and letting crimes take place without any action whatsoever. And then them saying 'hey, it's not our fault crimes take place, we just can't be bothered to take any action'.

Part of a plan or not, God allows evil to take place. And if it's not God doing evil, then he shows himself up a little bit by allowing it and also by not stopping it.. Makes him look weak and makes him look as though he can't stop it. Hypothetically ofcourse.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
A boiled egg?


Originally posted by saint4God
You did not create the egg, you've merely boiled it.


I created a boiled egg from a normal egg. Using water and heat.


Originally posted by saint4God
Ah, so there IS something mankind can't do. I appreciate that acknowledgement. I submit there are many many many more things that man can't do and therefore are not god. By the 4 statement proof-system you'd stated earlier, it establishes as such. Process of elimination is a slow way to pursue the truth, but if necessary we can do that.


Well we could change the calendar etc. However, there's no point, because there's no need to change it.

Sure, humans can't do everything, for example travel at the speed of light. However, we've also seen that God can't do everything, he can't eliminate 'all' evil. Part of a plan or not, he has not proven he can eliminate 'all' evil.

So I guess that puts us on par with God for now.



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
That's like the police just standing by, not doing anything, and letting crimes take place without any action whatsoever. And then them saying 'hey, it's not our fault crimes take place, we just can't be bothered to take any action'.


What's this? An analogy? I'm sorry shauny, but you can't equate God with a slacker police officer. Let's get back to the literal, seems like it's what you prefer.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Part of a plan or not, God allows evil to take place. And if it's not God doing evil, then he shows himself up a little bit by allowing it and also by not stopping it.. Makes him look weak and makes him look as though he can't stop it. Hypothetically ofcourse.


Ah, so ignore the plan. Nice. Only look at the short term problems without any long term benefits. Got it.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
I created a boiled egg from a normal egg. Using water and heat.


You not only did not create the egg, you did not create the water, nor heat, nor the process by which it became boiled. But enough with analogies, right?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Well we could change the calendar etc. However, there's no point, because there's no need to change it.


Totally agree.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Sure, humans can't do everything, for example travel at the speed of light.


Appreciated, thanks.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
However, we've also seen that God can't do everything, he can't eliminate 'all' evil.


Surely he can, remember those 4 statements of theory?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Part of a plan or not, he has not proven he can eliminate 'all' evil.


He may not have proven it, sure. But, it does not mean He is incapable of it.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So I guess that puts us on par with God for now.


Not at all.



posted on Oct, 18 2006 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
What's this? An analogy? I'm sorry shauny, but you can't equate God with a slacker police officer. Let's get back to the literal, seems like it's what you prefer.


Ohright, but you can equate him to the CIA and their tactics on terrorist websites..


Originally posted by saint4God
Ah, so ignore the plan. Nice. Only look at the short term problems without any long term benefits. Got it.


Fact remains that there's no evidence for a plan, other than in your head. I'm looking at the short term, because we're in the here and now.


Originally posted by saint4God
You not only did not create the egg, you did not create the water, nor heat, nor the process by which it became boiled. But enough with analogies, right?


Heat is energy. I'm sure you're aware of the concept of energy is neither created nor destroyed, it merely changes forms. If it's not created, then it's always been here, there's always been a certain amount of energy in the universe, hence God didn't create it.

You seem quite a scientific sort of person, always wanting 'scientific' answers for everything, and scientific logic applied to arguements. Well I applied science to energy, I applied logic to energy, and hey, guess what, God comes out looking like a doofus.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Part of a plan or not, he has not proven he can eliminate 'all' evil.


Originally posted by saint4God
He may not have proven it, sure. But, it does not mean He is incapable of it.


Then why do you assume he is capable? I'm not allowed to assume he's incapable, but it's perfectly okay for you to assume he's is capable..



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
Ohright, but you can equate him to the CIA and their tactics on terrorist websites..


Aha! So you do see the double-standard. Good good.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Fact remains that there's no evidence for a plan, other than in your head.


Not my head dude. My head has a hard time keeping up with the plan.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
I'm looking at the short term, because we're in the here and now.


I think it's very noble of you to admit short-sightedness. I am that way at times myself.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Heat is energy. I'm sure you're aware of the concept of energy is neither created nor destroyed, it merely changes forms. If it's not created, then it's always been here, there's always been a certain amount of energy in the universe, hence God didn't create it.


...so you're saying God wasn't created, that He always existed? I think we may be getting somewhere. Also, the laws of conservation of matter and energy applies to US, not omnipotent God.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
You seem quite a scientific sort of person,


Thank you ^_^, though I'm not a scientist (I wasn't paid for the university research), it is my field of study at present. I can say if I ever seen another Ostrinia Nubilalis or mix nutrient agar (that stuff is foul), I'm gonna scream.



Originally posted by shaunybaby
always wanting 'scientific' answers for everything, and scientific logic applied to arguements. Well I applied science to energy, I applied logic to energy, and hey, guess what, God comes out looking like a doofus.


Who created the laws of science? According to the belief in God, He did, therefore he can unmake them/break them just as easily. There have been many "laws" we've "founded" and had to revamp to say "...except in the case of..."


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Then why do you assume he is capable? I'm not allowed to assume he's incapable,


Wasn't that the presumption you'd made by saying "why call Him God"? I've seen the demonstration of power, don't need Him to do everything all the time for me to trust it's valid for B as it was for A.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
but it's perfectly okay for you to assume he's is capable..


I'll reposition. I pursued, later to be pursued by evil. God kicked evil and the horse it rode in on. Why would I think he'd be incapable because the circumstances affect some other person? I am no more different or special than anyone else. I deserved what I pursued and much worse. I should be dead now...but I'm not. That's proof enough for me, I know it's not proof enough for you. I'd only be able to help others get their proof and I submit it is unnecessary to do the stupid things I did to find the right way. If I'm wrong, that certainly sucks, but if the result is the same who am I to say otherwise? I will, however, do whatever I can to help. If I cannot help, I've lost nothing. If I do...well... that person has gained everything. Based on this methodology though, I can name those who have successfully gained everything and even one of those people is worth more to me than a lifetime of hopeless philosophies.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
I'm looking at the short term, because we're in the here and now.


Originally posted by saint4God
I think it's very noble of you to admit short-sightedness. I am that way at times myself.


Why worry about the future, that's yet to come, concentrate on the present. It has nothing to do with short-sightedness.


Originally posted by saint4God
...so you're saying God wasn't created, that He always existed? I think we may be getting somewhere.


No, I didn't say that. Don't make stuff up for the sake of it saint. Maybe you would like to re-read what I wrote, instead of reading what you 'think' I wrote.

Here's what I write: ''Energy is neither created nor destroyed''..

saint interprets this in his own way to mean: ''God was not created, he has always been here and always will be here''..


Originally posted by saint4God
Also, the laws of conservation of matter and energy applies to US, not omnipotent God.


But surely if God created everything, including the universe, he must have created energy. However, we know energy is neither created nor destroyed, it just changes forms. Therefore, God didn't create energy. Energy has always been, just how you believe God has 'always' been. This in no way means that energy is God and God is energy though.


Originally posted by saint4God
Who created the laws of science? According to the belief in God, He did, therefore he can unmake them/break them just as easily. There have been many "laws" we've "founded" and had to revamp to say "...except in the case of..."


Okay, so if something doesn't quite fit in with the belief of a God/s you can just say He can bend/break the rules. That's quite an insight to belief of a God in general. To ignore evidence against, and brush it off as saying God can change the rules if He wants to.


Originally posted by saint4God
Wasn't that the presumption you'd made by saying "why call Him God"? I've seen the demonstration of power, don't need Him to do everything all the time for me to trust it's valid for B as it was for A.


Demonstration of power.. It's odd that you've witnessed this, but I haven't. I wasn't always so skeptical about God, but the further I hear from people who believe, the further it takes me away from God. Why is that? For example people like you (Not meant in a bad way, in general people who believe) push me further away from God, even when your objective is to move people closer, you manage to move me further away, and so does any Christian. The more I hear from Christians, the more I can't stand the whole faith aspect. I have nothing wrong with spirituality in general, but just the organized religion thing really gets to me.



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
Why worry about the future, that's yet to come, concentrate on the present. It has nothing to do with short-sightedness.


Does this mean you should do nothing unless you get a benefit right now? Have you ever saved money? If so, why?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
No, I didn't say that. Don't make stuff up for the sake of it saint. Maybe you would like to re-read what I wrote, instead of reading what you 'think' I wrote.

Here's what I write: ''Energy is neither created nor destroyed''..

saint interprets this in his own way to mean: ''God was not created, he has always been here and always will be here''..


Why would it not apply in this case as well then? According to the Law of Conservation of Mass & Energy, mass and energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Therefore if God exists, He was neither created nor could He be destroyed.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
But surely if God created everything, including the universe, he must have created energy. However, we know energy is neither created nor destroyed, it just changes forms. Therefore, God didn't create energy. Energy has always been, just how you believe God has 'always' been. This in no way means that energy is God and God is energy though.


If you'd like to say God "arranged" the universe, I'm good with that.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Okay, so if something doesn't quite fit in with the belief of a God/s you can just say He can bend/break the rules. That's quite an insight to belief of a God in general. To ignore evidence against, and brush it off as saying God can change the rules if He wants to.


Would He be omnipotent if He couldn't? As you said, "if He is unable, why call Him God?"


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Demonstration of power.. It's odd that you've witnessed this, but I haven't. I wasn't always so skeptical about God, but the further I hear from people who believe, the further it takes me away from God.


Why do you depend on people for proof of God?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Why is that?


That's my question, see above.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
For example people like you (Not meant in a bad way, in general people who believe) push me further away from God, even when your objective is to move people closer, you manage to move me further away, and so does any Christian. The more I hear from Christians, the more I can't stand the whole faith aspect. I have nothing wrong with spirituality in general, but just the organized religion thing really gets to me.


Then your problem isn't with God, it's with people. My objective is not to move people closer to God, I push no one. My objective is to offer help for those who want to establish that connection. If you have no connection, nothing has been lost.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by saint4God]



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
Does this mean you should do nothing unless you get a benefit right now? Have you ever saved money? If so, why?


I never said only do things if you benifit from them now. I'm not anti-pension funds ya know.

And no I don't really save money.

I guess this is of some importance because you want me to see the whole picture, that you see, hence not looking at the short term evil around, but the long term that God has for evil, and then the even longer term plan of the party in the sky, in heaven, eating what you will, runing around with leaves over our privates and having a jolly good time singing songs and being merry.

Maybe I should look towards that, rather than living in the present (reality).


Originally posted by saint4God
Why would it not apply in this case as well then? According to the Law of Conservation of Mass & Energy, mass and energy cannot be created nor destroyed. Therefore if God exists, He was neither created nor could He be destroyed.


So you're saying God is matter or energy?


Originally posted by saint4God
Why do you depend on people for proof of God?


People wrote The Bible.

People believe in The Bible.

People believe in God.

People tend to try and spread the word of God in any way shape and form.

All the proof of God is with people. There is no proof outside of your head that proves God's existance.


Originally posted by saint4God
Then your problem isn't with God, it's with people. My objective is not to move people closer to God, I push no one. My objective is to offer help for those who want to establish that connection. If you have no connection, nothing has been lost.


But my problem is with God. Here is why:

Lets take for example the 'Westboro Baptist Church'. If you're still not quite sure what that means, lets take the name 'Fred Phelps'. Or how about we describe them as the hate group, that go around telling people God hates fags, and God will punish homosexuals, they also protest at dead soldiers funerals with signs saying 'thank God for dead soldiers', sometimes held up by young children who don't have a clue what they're doing.

These are supposed to be people who believe in God..

On the other side of the world we have people blowing themselves and other people up in the name of God.

So we have hate groups who believe in God, and also people blowing themselves up in the name of God.. Oh please show yourself to me God, I so need you, please save me Jesus my soul is tainted and my sins need to be washed away, I believe I believe!

Nothing good has come out of organized religion. Anything good is outweighed by the bad.

But hey.. it's all part of God's plan right?



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
I never said only do things if you benifit from them now. I'm not anti-pension funds ya know.


That's good...though pensions may be disappearing soon.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
And no I don't really save money.


It's a good habit, you'll thank yourself later
even if it's 5 or 10% of the paycheck socked away.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
I guess this is of some importance because you want me to see the whole picture, that you see, hence not looking at the short term evil around, but the long term that God has for evil, and then the even longer term plan of the party in the sky, in heaven, eating what you will, runing around with leaves over our privates and having a jolly good time singing songs and being merry.

Maybe I should look towards that, rather than living in the present (reality).


Ya! (minus the leaves thing, not gonna need them since we were naked and sinless before). But totally appreciate this understanding of what hope is, what it's based up, now we have to establish the sound support for that hope.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So you're saying God is matter or energy?


He's gotta be something, yes? There's a theory out there in quantum physics that all matter is, is slowed-down energy. Pretty cool. Don't know how it works as it was an intro course, but lots of fun to think about. I'd like to think that's right, given what we know about gluons, quarks and the like. Is it a wave or a particle? It behaves like both but consistently like neither one
!


Originally posted by shaunybaby
People wrote The Bible.


People wrote down all they had seen and heard. God did write some of it, but we broke it and had to get another copy. It's no wonder then that he had us do the rest.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
People believe in The Bible.

People believe in God.


And therefore make people fully comprehensive to all that is God? I'd like to think that Christians sit at home all day everyday praying and reading, but even if we did...we're only human
.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
People tend to try and spread the word of God in any way shape and form.


Thank God for that! I don't think Christians do this nearly enough as a whole. Hopefully I'll be eating my words on this statement.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
All the proof of God is with people. There is no proof outside of your head that proves God's existance.


God is personal, which is why the people who believe in Him have a personal testimony to explain why. That testimony won't MAKE anyone believe...only let them know they can get a testimony of their own should they choose to get it. I'll help however possible.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
But my problem is with God. Here is why:

Lets take for example the 'Westboro Baptist Church'. If you're still not quite sure what that means, lets take the name 'Fred Phelps'. Or how about we describe them as the hate group, that go around telling people God hates fags, and God will punish homosexuals, they also protest at dead soldiers funerals with signs saying 'thank God for dead soldiers', sometimes held up by young children who don't have a clue what they're doing.

These are supposed to be people who believe in God..


You hit the nail on the head by saying "supposed to"...which is why I don't recommend worshipping people.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
On the other side of the world we have people blowing themselves and other people up in the name of God.


Yeah, what's up with that?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
So we have hate groups who believe in God, and also people blowing themselves up in the name of God..


Everyone likes a dirty conspiracy, here it is. Many times, God is being used as a mask to hide the true motives of greed, power, lust, territory, resources, pride, and status. We don't need to dig very far to see it though. If you were God, how would you feel about mankind doing that?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Oh please show yourself to me God, I so need you, please save me Jesus my soul is tainted and my sins need to be washed away, I believe I believe!


The day you honestly say that is the day things will change.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Nothing good has come out of organized religion. Anything good is outweighed by the bad.


What makes "the news", good news or bad news?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
But hey.. it's all part of God's plan right?


Ya. I can't figure it out, but I'm given the help of being advised on what I should be doing, how to think and why. At this point I can either accept or reject it. Whereas before I wanted to reject it, now seeing the benefits by utilizing the tools of hope, love and faith, I want to accept this advice.



posted on Oct, 19 2006 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by saint4God
He's gotta be something, yes?


Personally I like the South Park concept of a physical God.

Is God a physical being?

He does have to be 'something', but I don't think you could describe God as a ghost-like being, or any type of physical being. I think it's quite impossible to describe what exactly God is, other than a devine being/entity.


Originally posted by saint4God
There's a theory out there in quantum physics that all matter is, is slowed-down energy. Pretty cool.


A rock would be very very very slowed down energy



Originally posted by saint4God
People wrote down all they had seen and heard. God did write some of it, but we broke it and had to get another copy. It's no wonder then that he had us do the rest.


It's odd that the very words that God apparently spoke to the character Moses, that were inscribed on to stone tablets, are now lost. This is God's words, on stone, the God that created everything in the universe and we don't have these stone tablets anymore. These are the very words spoken by the God that created our universe, and we lose these stones. That can be a problem with The Bible, that there is little 'physical' evidence to cohere with The Bible.


Originally posted by saint4God
Thank God for that! I don't think Christians do this nearly enough as a whole. Hopefully I'll be eating my words on this statement.


Yeah, 2 billion or so Christians.. You really need a few more members..



Originally posted by saint4God
You hit the nail on the head by saying "supposed to"...which is why I don't recommend worshipping people.


They probably have the same view on 'your' belief in God. To you, they are wrong. However, to them, you are wrong. That's the problem with belief, everyone thinks they're right, and that everyone else is wrong.


Originally posted by saint4God
Everyone likes a dirty conspiracy, here it is. Many times, God is being used as a mask to hide the true motives of greed, power, lust, territory, resources, pride, and status. We don't need to dig very far to see it though. If you were God, how would you feel about mankind doing that?


Again, so it's 'them' that are wrong with their belief in God. And not you? Even though they would view your belief in God as you view there's, hence 'wrong'.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Oh please show yourself to me God, I so need you, please save me Jesus my soul is tainted and my sins need to be washed away, I believe I believe!


Originally posted by saint4God
The day you honestly say that is the day things will change.


I like things the way they are. Actually I love the way things are. I don't need God or Jesus. I think it's a shame that people do need that in their lives, and can't be strong enough on their own. I walked in to a public restroom and there was a muslim guy, standing at the sink, washing his hands and arms, also standing in bare feet, then put his feet in the sink to wash his feet, that's when I left, as I didn't really want to see someone wash their feet. He would have proceeded to pray, and muslims do this five times a day. Whilst I'm just thinking 'what's the point'. It's like they almost feel compelled to do it, like if they don't they're probably worried about the consequences.. It doesn't seem like any way to live your life.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Nothing good has come out of organized religion. Anything good is outweighed by the bad.


Originally posted by saint4God
What makes "the news", good news or bad news?


Catholic church leaders, in positions of authority, molesting children who come to their churches, also covering up such acts. I'd say that's bad news, I don't think you could argue that's good. And I don't think anything good that the Catholic faith has done, could ever make amends for such acts.

You have the honor killings of the islamic/muslim faiths. The suicide bombers of the muslim extremist faith. The faith healers, preachers of Christian/Catholic faiths taking everyday people's money to line their own pockets.

Why would I want to associate myself with any of that?



posted on Oct, 20 2006 @ 08:41 AM
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Originally posted by shaunybaby
Is God a physical being?

He does have to be 'something', but I don't think you could describe God as a ghost-like being, or any type of physical being. I think it's quite impossible to describe what exactly God is, other than a devine being/entity.


Very solid assessment I think.



Originally posted by shaunybaby
A rock would be very very very slowed down energy


Indeed! Some contend the only reason why we can see it is because of its "slowness"...whereas the faster the particles move, the least visible it would be. I couldn't explain the theory though.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
It's odd that the very words that God apparently spoke to the character Moses, that were inscribed on to stone tablets, are now lost. This is God's words, on stone, the God that created everything in the universe and we don't have these stone tablets anymore. These are the very words spoken by the God that created our universe, and we lose these stones. That can be a problem with The Bible, that there is little 'physical' evidence to cohere with The Bible.


I agree, I have a hard time fathoming how in the world they were let go...but as I understand it the broken tablets were taken by force. Before that they went with the tent-church in a gold box wherever they went. I wonder if there was a problem with people's focus being on the "holy gold box" instead of the Author. Hm...could the ancient Hebrews have made an idol out of the box and broken tablets? It wasn't too long ago they were bowing down to a golden calf. I don't know. Fun to theorize though.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Yeah, 2 billion or so Christians.. You really need a few more members..


2 billion who claim to be Christian. It would be very very difficult to say all of them are as they claim. Certainly possible but I'm not brave enough to say "Yes, absolutely". It's also possible for there to be Christians who just don't know how to word it, as it says "...from every tribe and nation...". I'm not looking for new members for any club. I lead no church, collect no funds, no signatures or names. What is important is establishing your one-on-one relationship with God. He'll take care of the rest of the world.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
They probably have the same view on 'your' belief in God.


Maybe, maybe not. If they have a working relationship with God, comprehending the words the Bible expresses then most likely yes. I have talked to some even who've met these two and yet we differ in some regards. I can candidly say I love those arguments, because at the end of the day, it's a shaking of hands knowing we'll see each other there and have the answer. Perhaps they'll be prancing around saying "in your face!" but if we're both standing in eternal happiness, its more of a chuckle than anything else.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
To you, they are wrong. However, to them, you are wrong. That's the problem with belief, everyone thinks they're right, and that everyone else is wrong.


There's the milk and meat (as Paul puts it). The milk, or the basics, all Christians should agree upon as it is literally what is God and what is said by God. The meat is all the guesswork we do from what is not said. Many conclusions can be agreed upon in the meat, but certainly not all. Why would God do such a thing? Why doesn't He just tell us everything? I think it's part of the fun of exploration and growth. It'd be a dreadfully boring world on earth to know it all, agree, and never learn anything.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Again, so it's 'them' that are wrong with their belief in God. And not you? Even though they would view your belief in God as you view there's, hence 'wrong'.


There is only one thing that truly matters among Christians and that is this: Are you John 3:16? (I use this passage because just about everyone recognizes it, but is by no means the only one). If the answer is "yes", see you in heaven and we'll both have the details. If the answer is "no", then most thereafter will more than likely be in disagreement on the topic.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
I like things the way they are. Actually I love the way things are. I don't need God or Jesus.


Love is not about taking something because you need it. Actually it's the opposite. It's giving because you want share it.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
I think it's a shame that people do need that in their lives, and can't be strong enough on their own. I walked in to a public restroom and there was a muslim guy, standing at the sink, washing his hands and arms, also standing in bare feet, then put his feet in the sink to wash his feet, that's when I left, as I didn't really want to see someone wash their feet. He would have proceeded to pray, and muslims do this five times a day. Whilst I'm just thinking 'what's the point'. It's like they almost feel compelled to do it, like if they don't they're probably worried about the consequences.. It doesn't seem like any way to live your life.


I agree living in fear in no way to live. Christ said to believers, "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?" When you're given the free gift of eternal life, what in the world is there to fear?


Originally posted by shaunybaby
Nothing good has come out of organized religion. Anything good is outweighed by the bad.


Originally posted by saint4God
What makes "the news", good news or bad news?


Catholic church leaders, in positions of authority, molesting children who come to their churches, also covering up such acts. I'd say that's bad news, I don't think you could argue that's good.

Agreed.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
And I don't think anything good that the Catholic faith has done, could ever make amends for such acts.


Also agreed, though you have illustrated the point nicely. Catholic charities have done innumerable good things for people, yet none make the news. Regardless though, it's not what a person does that saves a person. That's a hard concept to grasp in a capitalist society where everyone works to get what they "deserve".


Originally posted by shaunybaby
You have the honor killings of the islamic/muslim faiths. The suicide bombers of the muslim extremist faith.


This I don't get. We're in the same boat on this one.


Originally posted by shaunybaby
The faith healers, preachers of Christian/Catholic faiths taking everyday people's money to line their own pockets.


Indeed if they are lining their own pockets, that is certainly something to be concerned about. As Paul says, "Test everything". I was forunate enough to receive a quarterly report from the church I attend before I'd given anything. I'm a skeptic, even in a church, about parting with money while being unsure where it is going. Check it out certainly, then when all excuses....er...reasons I mean...have been satisfied, then give. A thread some time ago:


Money grubbin' church is apparently something I'm not a part of, yet there's that whole conspiracy that that's what churches are. I know I know, you don't believe me and how can you take my word? After all, aren't I biased? I am biased, but by facts, knowing numbers don't lie. Lemme show you:

Excerpt from church bulletin. The one everyone gets when they walk into the door:

Operating Fund
...............................................Budgeted............Actual.............Over/-Under

2005 YTD Income...................$645,258...........$593,333..........-$49,025
2005 YTD Expenses...............$540,634...........$456,389..........-$84,244
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Net Surplus/(Deficit)..............$101,625...........$136,844............$35,219

Annual Budgeted Expenses.........................................................$1,370,349
Monthly Offerings Needed to Meet Annual Budgeted Expenses..$114,196
Last Month's Offering...................................................................$109,649
Current Cash Balance (Cash in Bank)..........................................$ 94,921

Decon's Fund
Actual
2005 YTD Income...........................$15,530
2005 YTD Expenses.......................$27,758
-------------------------------------------------------
Net Surplus/-Deficit.......................-$12,228

Current Cash Balance (Cash in Bank)..$5,538

"Building From our Hearts" Campaign

Current Balance on Mortgage.................$502,137
Giving towards Mortgage 2005 YTD............$6,659

Parking Lot Reconstruction Pledges

Total Amount Received from pledges.........$54,950
Total Amount Pledged................................$67,055
----------------------------------------------------------------
Net Surplus/-Deficit...................................-$12,105

Where do these funds go? Food for the needy (called the Salt and Light Ministry), help for struggling single mothers, missions for a school in the Dominican Republic, and so on...

And here's my favorite number:

Total amount of money the church has asked me to give: $0.00

www.belowtopsecret.com...




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