The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Originally posted by saint4God
If she could not forgive, it is best that she quit the church, else be accused of hypocrisy.

But it has nothing to do with her beliefs, or being a 'bad' Christian because she cannot forgive. That's just her human nature that she can't bring herself to forgive to person that killed her daughter. So in a way you're saying block those human/natural emotions, and go against your feelings and just forgive as The Bible says to do. The thing is if you've never been in the position where you've lost a son/daughter, who was murdered, then how can you possibly judge that person's decision to not forgive that murderer?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Another example would be say a girl of 13 who gets raped, gets pregnant, and according to The Bible and the glorious devine word of God, she HAS to have that baby. Saint, before you were talking about God giving us choice. Where is the choice if The Bible tells you, you can't get an abortion

Originally posted by saint4God
"You shall not murder." - Exodus 20:13

"You shall not murder" - Deuteronomy 5:17

Nice how you avoided the whole point that I made. We could get in to the whole point about when exactly is 'life' actually 'life' obviously in your mind from conception, but not in mine, but that's a whole discussion on it's own.

Originally posted by saint4God
There are 116 passages that talks about forgiveness.

So.. every case is different. No one has the right to say you have to forgive someone, especially in circumstances where a person's daughter is murdered. There could be 10,000 passages on forgiveness.. doesn't make it any easier to forgive in such circumstances. Another example would be the 9/11 hijackers, why in the world should they be forgiven? Sure I understand that forgiveness is important, and loving your nieghbor or fellow human being, however there are some cases when this can be excused.

Originally posted by saint4God
"Do this" or "do that" is Old Testament law. The New Testament goes further on how to think, not just what to think.

In the same breath you're not allowed to condemn, judge or not-forgive, and you have to love your neighbor, and no abortions.. yeah lots of 'thinking' for the Christians.. Definitley not being told what to do.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
But it has nothing to do with her beliefs, or being a 'bad' Christian because she cannot forgive. That's just her human nature that she can't bring herself to forgive to person that killed her daughter. So in a way you're saying block those human/natural emotions, and go against your feelings and just forgive as The Bible says to do.

My initial reaction would probably be anger and a desire for retribution or vengence. This would be wrong of me, perhaps even a sin. Hopefully I would have the wits about me to remember what I've been studying. Not block or repress those feelings, but rather understand them and let them go. Ultimately forgiveness is the good thing to do.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
The thing is if you've never been in the position where you've lost a son/daughter, who was murdered, then how can you possibly judge that person's decision to not forgive that murderer?

Firstly, you're making an assumption, albeit a correct one. I have lost a neice though, never to be seen again and it is painful. Rather than blaming those involved, I hope they've come to see and know love. I don't know by what foundation your saying I've never been in an extremely painful position and am unable to relate to people who suffer. On the contrary.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Nice how you avoided the whole point that I made. We could get in to the whole point about when exactly is 'life' actually 'life' obviously in your mind from conception, but not in mine, but that's a whole discussion on it's own.

We've had it before. Probably best to leave it on the thread it belongs.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
So.. every case is different. No one has the right to say you have to forgive someone, especially in circumstances where a person's daughter is murdered. There could be 10,000 passages on forgiveness.. doesn't make it any easier to forgive in such circumstances.

I never said it was easy. In fact, you may quote me in saying that it is hard...as I have a few posts prior to.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Another example would be the 9/11 hijackers, why in the world should they be forgiven?

Yes. As far as those left alive in committing the terrorist act, contained but forgiven. Not only to protect others, but to protect themselves from doing further harm. I've heard & read reports that they're treated better than most prisoners in history. I'd contend they're treated better than a lot of citizens forced to live in the streets. I've met and talked to homeless people on a number of occasions.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Sure I understand that forgiveness is important, and loving your nieghbor or fellow human being, however there are some cases when this can be excused.

Where is that quoted or culminated from?

Originally posted by saint4God
In the same breath you're not allowed to condemn, judge or not-forgive, and you have to love your neighbor, and no abortions.. yeah lots of 'thinking' for the Christians.. Definitley not being told what to do.

If a person enjoys condemning, judging and not-forgiving, then yes I can see a definate incompatibility between them and God. As far as following rules/laws, you do it all the time...unless you're posting on ATS from prison.

[edit on 8-9-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
My initial reaction would probably be anger and a desire for retribution or vengence. This would be wrong of me, perhaps even a sin. Hopefully I would have the wits about me to remember what I've been studying. Not block or repress those feelings, but rather understand them and let them go. Ultimately forgiveness is the good thing to do.

Well just because you don't forgive someone it doens't mean you have to hate them or feel anger towards them, you just don't feel like they deserve forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a great thing to do, and I think in some cases people do deserve forgiveness. However, it's easy for us to sit here and say you should forgive for whatever the reason, ignore your feelings, try to understand them and then let them go. Yet, it's another story altogether if you're actually in that posistion, rather than just a bystander like us.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
The thing is if you've never been in the position where you've lost a son/daughter, who was murdered, then how can you possibly judge that person's decision to not forgive that murderer?

Originally posted by saint4God
Firstly, you're making an assumption, albeit a correct one.

''The thing is if you've never been in the position''..

I made no assumption, as I don't know if you have been in that position, hopefully you never have or never will be.

Originally posted by saint4God
I have lost a neice though, never to be seen again and it is painful. Rather than blaming those involved, I hope they've come to see and know love. I don't know by what foundation your saying I've never been in an extremely painful position and am unable to relate to people who suffer. On the contrary.

I never suggested that you had never felt the loss of a loved one. I have also, but never to such a thing as murder, or along the lines of 7/7. I can safely say that if such a thing occured to any member of my family, I wouldn't be able to forgive the person who did it, and nor would I want to forgive them.

But I guess that's the difference between non-believers and believers.

Originally posted by saint4God
I never said it was easy. In fact, you may quote me in saying that it is hard...as I have a few posts prior to.

But just because you're able to forgive a murderer, I don't think that makes you a better person than someone who can't forgive a murderer. Not only has that woman lost a daughter in such horrific circumstances, but she's also now lost her faith.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Sure I understand that forgiveness is important, and loving your nieghbor or fellow human being, however there are some cases when this can be excused.

Originally posted by saint4God
Where is that quoted or culminated from?

From me. Loving your fellow human being is important, as is forgiveness. We all do wrong, but with forgiveness we can make amends. On the other hand, in such extreme circumstances as a murder, or along the lines of 7/7, logic and reason get thrown out the window as the events are so sureal. And it's no longer a forgive or not to forgive decision, it becomes a whole lot more complicated.

Originally posted by saint4God
If a person enjoys condemning, judging and not-forgiving, then yes I can see a definate incompatibility between them and God. As far as following rules/laws, you do it all the time...unless you're posting on ATS from prison.

But just because you judge or don't forgive someone, it doens't mean you enjoy doing so. I might steal and break the law, however it becomes a whole different story when i'm stealing a loaf of bread and breaking the law to feed my poor family. There are rules and laws that we should follow, and it's true that people should try to forgive and love, however, in some circumstances rules need to be bent and even broken to allow for somethings, such as stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family. It's still breaking the law, but the 'reason' is good enough, I believe, that it should not warrant such judgement or punishment. Then again, everyone can't go around stealing because they're hungry, obviously there are limitations to rule breaking.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Well just because you don't forgive someone it doens't mean you have to hate them or feel anger towards them, you just don't feel like they deserve forgiveness.

Forgiveness is a great thing to do, and I think in some cases people do deserve forgiveness.

Pride says we deserve things. We deserve nothing. What we get are blessings. In the same way we received those blessings, we are to be blessings to others. Who since birth fed, cared for and taught themself everything?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
However, it's easy for us to sit here and say you should forgive for whatever the reason, ignore your feelings, try to understand them and then let them go. Yet, it's another story altogether if you're actually in that posistion, rather than just a bystander like us.

Again you're assuming I've had no major sufferings though I don't know why.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
The thing is if you've never been in the position where you've lost a son/daughter, who was murdered, then how can you possibly judge that person's decision to not forgive that murderer?

I'm not judging anyone, nor am I going by my own words.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I made no assumption, as I don't know if you have been in that position, hopefully you never have or never will be.

Time will tell. I can say historically I've been through a lot of trauma in my life, as I'm sure many of us have.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I never suggested that you had never felt the loss of a loved one. I have also, but never to such a thing as murder, or along the lines of 7/7. I can safely say that if such a thing occured to any member of my family, I wouldn't be able to forgive the person who did it, and nor would I want to forgive them.

Neither of us would want to, but it is the right thing to do.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
But just because you're able to forgive a murderer, I don't think that makes you a better person than someone who can't forgive a murderer.

I never claimed to be "a better person". Again, that's a pride that has no value.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Not only has that woman lost a daughter in such horrific circumstances, but she's also now lost her faith.

You have two choices in trying times. You can turn to faith or you can turn away from faith. I guarentee if you turn away from faith, faith will do nothing for you. I can say I have turned to faith (as well as away from it) and it has most certainly done more for me than a house made of gold.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
From me.

...which would be useful if you were God.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Loving your fellow human being is important, as is forgiveness. We all do wrong, but with forgiveness we can make amends. On the other hand, in such extreme circumstances as a murder, or along the lines of 7/7, logic and reason get thrown out the window as the events are so sureal. And it's no longer a forgive or not to forgive decision, it becomes a whole lot more complicated.

I agree it is not a logic/reason issue and yes it is complicated.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
But just because you judge or don't forgive someone, it doens't mean you enjoy doing so.

Understandable

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I might steal and break the law, however it becomes a whole different story when i'm stealing a loaf of bread and breaking the law to feed my poor family.

So you're saying there is no legal way possible to feed your family otherwise? A forgiving/non-judgemental man would give you bread when you asked for it. A non-forgiving, judgemental man would say "go get your bread like I got my bread!". Is that truly fair? That non-forgiving, judgemental man does not know your particular circumstances.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
There are rules and laws that we should follow, and it's true that people should try to forgive and love, however, in some circumstances rules need to be bent and even broken to allow for somethings, such as stealing a loaf of bread to feed your starving family. It's still breaking the law, but the 'reason' is good enough,

The judges, government, shopkeepers, etc. would disagree that it is a "good" reason, and in fact would charge that you're doing wrong. Are you not taking the money away from the shopkeeper who also has to feed his family? Why is your family more special than his that you can steal from their mouths to feed yours?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I believe, that it should not warrant such judgement or punishment. Then again, everyone can't go around stealing because they're hungry, obviously there are limitations to rule breaking.

The rule we're discussion is statutory. You can argue relativism to the judge all you want, the law stands.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Pride says we deserve things. We deserve nothing. What we get are blessings. In the same way we received those blessings, we are to be blessings to others. Who since birth fed, cared for and taught themself everything?

since when did recieving blessings from others, and being brought up from birth have anything to do with forgiveness.

Originally posted by saint4God
Again you're assuming I've had no major sufferings though I don't know why.

each case is taken on it's individual merit. varying degrees of suffering and grief cannot possibly be compared to one another. hence, whatever situation you've been in.. it is not that 'same' situation as someone elses. and i never assumed you had no major sufferings.. that saint is 'your' assumption.

Originally posted by saint4God
I'm not judging anyone, nor am I going by my own words.

so you didn't say that if the woman could not forgive her daughter's murderers, that she would therefore be a hypocrit in the eyes of the church? i'd say that's a judgement. your judgement is that she has to forgive, otherwise she's a hypocrit, and that she should forgive because she's a christian.

Originally posted by saint4God
Neither of us would want to, but it is the right thing to do.

and yet again, another judgement from our self-professed non-judgemental saintforgod.

basically the reason i brought up this whole 'forgiveness' thing is because it ties in with the power of christianity. what this means is that christianity is such a powerful machine that it can tell you what to do, what to think, what to feel, what to believe, what not to believe and all wrapped up in one book.

To interject at an interesting point in this discussion, without really knowing much of the backstory (I really don't want to read 99 pages of backstory ) :

Originally posted by shaunybaby
But just because you're able to forgive a murderer, I don't think that makes you a better person than someone who can't forgive a murderer.

But it does! You do not understand "The Absolute Power of Christianity!"!

If you do not forgive, you are just letting yourself in for more trauma. First you'd have to prove to the entire world about the fault of the murderer (the court cases, seeing the murderer again and again) and if you fail, the murderer goes free, causing you more trauma and (perhaps?) a desire for personal revenge (which would cause more trauma and problems). Even if the murderer got convicted (or killed), you'd always think they got off easy, they had a chance to get to terms with the end of their life, they got it less painful, etc.

If you forgive (truely and completely), all that is gone! Whatever may happen to the murderer, is out of your hands. You are totally released from the emotional burden. What is even more incredible, is that they are now completely and totally under your power. YOU GAVE THEM YOUR FORGIVENESS! They are indebted to you. They owe you their life (or at least some of their peace of mind).

Even the whole "turn the other cheek" bit gives you power over the aggressor! They realise that they can harm you, hurt you, destroy your body, but they cannot possibly let it affect you. It drives them crazy! If you love your enemies, their aggression has no use! Their injustice to you comes to their eyes. Once again, you hold them in your power. The Absolute Power of Christianity!

(Just a few thoughts)

Originally posted by babloyi
But it does! You do not understand "The Absolute Power of Christianity!"!

If you do not forgive, you are just letting yourself in for more trauma. First you'd have to prove to the entire world about the fault of the murderer (the court cases, seeing the murderer again and again) and if you fail, the murderer goes free, causing you more trauma and (perhaps?) a desire for personal revenge (which would cause more trauma and problems). Even if the murderer got convicted (or killed), you'd always think they got off easy, they had a chance to get to terms with the end of their life, they got it less painful, etc.

There's a whole plethora of statements here that you are throwing into the pot. Huge leaps of faith and assumptions to think that this is what everyone thinks go with forgiveness.

If someone murders your family member, you don't have to forgive them. This does NOT mean that you seek revenge, that you need to see the perpetrator pay, that you cannot find peace with yourself and the world again.

Not forgiving doesn't make you a bad person. Your actions and the motivations behind your actions are what you will be judged upon. The suffering or joy you bring to others is what makes you.

If you genuinely think the things you wrote are the only alternative to forgiveness, you reinforce my opinion that religion is not a good thing.

If you love your enemies, their aggression has no use! Their injustice to you comes to their eyes. Once again, you hold them in your power. The Absolute Power of Christianity!

If anyone, ever, can genuinely say that they love their enemies, I would propose they are loosening their interpretation of the definition of love, but I digress.

I don't have a problem with the sentiment of what you wrote here but do you see how you link this to Christianity. Love can exist without christianity.

If it were even possible to "love" someone who killed your mother (for example), why would being a christian be a pre requisite for this occurence?

If religion is teaching you to love the murderer of your family, how do you think this person would be judged differently to someone who was simply able to deal with the pain and move forward with their life, continuing to grow, love and develop?

Originally posted by Prote
If someone murders your family member, you don't have to forgive them. This does NOT mean that you seek revenge, that you need to see the perpetrator pay, that you cannot find peace with yourself and the world again.

What does not forgiving mean, then? What is the difference between forgiving and not forgiving. Forgiving someone doesn't make what they did right. Neither does not forgiving someone. The whole point/meaning of "Forgiveness" is that you are saying to yourself "I do not require to see the perpetrator pay". How do you define forgiveness?

Originally posted by Prote
Not forgiving doesn't make you a bad person.

No, but forgiving them makes you a better person.

Originally posted by Prote
If you genuinely think the things you wrote are the only alternative to forgiveness, you reinforce my opinion that religion is not a good thing.

If you love your enemies, their aggression has no use! Their injustice to you comes to their eyes. Once again, you hold them in your power. The Absolute Power of Christianity!

If anyone, ever, can genuinely say that they love their enemies, I would propose they are loosening their interpretation of the definition of love, but I digress.

I don't have a problem with the sentiment of what you wrote here but do you see how you link this to Christianity. Love can exist without christianity.

If it were even possible to "love" someone who killed your mother (for example), why would being a christian be a pre requisite for this occurence?

If religion is teaching you to love the murderer of your family, how do you think this person would be judged differently to someone who was simply able to deal with the pain and move forward with their life, continuing to grow, love and develop?

You are a very funny person . Your unwillingness to listen makes me think that closed-mindedness is not a good thing. I am not Christian. I never said that love cannot exist without religion. I may not necessarily believe any of what I typed. As I said in the last line of my post, I'm just throwing some ideas out there.

[edit on 11-9-2006 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
But it does! You do not understand "The Absolute Power of Christianity!"!

If you do not forgive, you are just letting yourself in for more trauma. First you'd have to prove to the entire world about the fault of the murderer (the court cases, seeing the murderer again and again) and if you fail, the murderer goes free, causing you more trauma and (perhaps?) a desire for personal revenge (which would cause more trauma and problems). Even if the murderer got convicted (or killed), you'd always think they got off easy, they had a chance to get to terms with the end of their life, they got it less painful, etc.

Why is the murderer going to be free, just because you don't forgive him/her? you make many assumptions, and judgements such as if you forgive someone you are in fact a better person for doing so.

the actual discussion was not about murderers, it was about forgiveness, 7/7 was an example because a lady who went to church ended up losing her faith because she couldn't forgive her daughter's murderers.

Originally posted by babloyi
If you forgive (truely and completely), all that is gone! Whatever may happen to the murderer, is out of your hands. You are totally released from the emotional burden. What is even more incredible, is that they are now completely and totally under your power. YOU GAVE THEM YOUR FORGIVENESS! They are indebted to you. They owe you their life (or at least some of their peace of mind).

you make it sound like when you forgive someone you ignore what they did and forgive them dispite their actions, that's why there's no emotional burden anymore because what you're doing is forgetting what that person did, which is totally the opposite of what you should do.

Originally posted by babloyi
What does not forgiving mean, then? What is the difference between forgiving and not forgiving. Forgiving someone doesn't make what they did right. Neither does not forgiving someone. The whole point/meaning of "Forgiveness" is that you are saying to yourself "I do not require to see the perpetrator pay". How do you define forgiveness?

but the perpertrator will still end up paying for his/her actions, such as a prison sentence. that's called justice. so whether you forgive them or not, they will still be brought to justice. and 25 years in prison would not neccesarily make the victim's family any satisfied. it's not always about an eye for an eye or seeking revenge.

and if anyone sounds closed minded it's you babloyi.

Hey babloyi, good to see you again my friend. Always interested in your thoughts and contributions to the discussion. There aren't many who can throw some objective, analytical thoughts for consideration out there as hypothetical. If you haven't tried/tested that hypothesis before, I'd encourage doing so to see the results of that experiment.

Personally I was terrible at forgiving. I held grudges for weeks, months, even years. The longest being a decade and a half against my aunt. That was wrong. I've since forgiven and we're good with each other again, though I'll never get that lost time back. Nothing is more expensive than regret. Nevertheless, all we can affect is here and now, so will do my best to work within that temporal confine.

At first I was a little confused with what you meant by "a better person" and would agree that one becomes a better person than what they were before by practicing forgiveness. I don't think it makes a person better than someone else however like some kind of elitist holy manner. According to Christian thought, we're all sinners.

I'll shut up now and give babloyi some time to respond should s/he be inclined to do so.

[edit on 12-9-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
Personally I was terrible at forgiving. I held grudges for weeks, months, even years. The longest being a decade and a half against my aunt. That was wrong. I've since forgiven and we're good with each other again, though I'll never get that lost time back. Nothing is more expensive than regret. Nevertheless, all we can affect is here and now, so will do my best to work within that temporal confine.

i have nothing against forgiving people, it's just the thought of a book or a person saying 'it's the right thing to do', or that you 'should' do it.

but even if i didn't forgive a person for whatever they had done, it doesn't mean i still hold a grudge etc.. but i can still put it out of my mind without the need to forgive them. when you do forgive someone for anything, no matter how small, you do feel a sense of (not really sure of the word) but a good feeling none the less.

i've never been in the situation where i've had to forgive a murderer, which is why i couldn't possibly say that woman 'should' forgive him, as i have no idea what she's experiencing.

I love it when people misinterpret my ideas, especially when they end up with insulting me!

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Why is the murderer going to be free, just because you don't forgive him/her? you make many assumptions, and judgements such as if you forgive someone you are in fact a better person for doing so.

Where did I say that the murderer goes free if you don't forgive him/her? Please point it out, because I can't seem to find it. Like I said, I'm just throwing out a few ideas, I have no idea where the whole bit about me being judgemental and presumptious is coming from.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
You make it sound like when you forgive someone you ignore what they did and forgive them dispite their actions, that's why there's no emotional burden anymore because what you're doing is forgetting what that person did, which is totally the opposite of what you should do.

Where do I make it sound? I see no example of making it sound anywhere in the part you quoted, or any other part. If I made it sound, I apologise, because I didn't mean to.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
But the perpertrator will still end up paying for his/her actions, such as a prison sentence. that's called justice. so whether you forgive them or not, they will still be brought to justice. and 25 years in prison would not neccesarily make the victim's family any satisfied. it's not always about an eye for an eye or seeking revenge.

I don't think you understood what I said. I was not talking about an eye for an eye or revenge. My whole point was that '25 years in prison would not neccesarily make the victim's family any satisfied'. But forgiveness CAN do that. The whole point of forgiveness is that you don't need 'an eye for an eye or seeking revenge'.

Hello again Saint4God. Good to see you too! Myself, I'm all to eager to forgive, but I don't think it has anything to do as much with my 'superior moral character' as it has to do with the fact that I'm completely socially inept, and just can't understand the holding of a grudge overnight.

I did not mean that you become better in some elitist holy manner. I understand that you would become a better person (at least I percieve you mean it in the sense of doing good deeds makes you a better person), but that's not what I meant. I was talking about the emotional burden of someone having wronged you. If you forgive them, you're no longer the 'victim'. You are a better person!

I apologise if I appear to be aggressive in this post, it's just frustrating to be bashed to smithereens just for posting a few different ideas and viewpoints for examination.

Originally posted by babloyi
I love it when people misinterpret my ideas, especially when they end up with insulting me!

if you're suggesting i insulted you, i'd like to know. because i didn't.

Originally posted by babloyi
Where did I say that the murderer goes free if you don't forgive him/her? Please point it out, because I can't seem to find it. Like I said, I'm just throwing out a few ideas, I have no idea where the whole bit about me being judgemental and presumptious is coming from.

Originally posted by babloyi
and if you fail, the murderer goes free

sorry if it's confusing.

Originally posted by babloyi
a desire for personal revenge

and that's passing judgement, saying that if you didn't forgive someone then you'd feel personal revenge against them. that's where you assume to much and throw your judgements around.

Originally posted by babloyi
I don't think you understood what I said. I was not talking about an eye for an eye or revenge. My whole point was that '25 years in prison would not neccesarily make the victim's family any satisfied'. But forgiveness CAN do that. The whole point of forgiveness is that you don't need 'an eye for an eye or seeking revenge'.

but just because you don't forgive someone, it doesn't mean that you want revenge or want to 'get them back' in anyway.. it just means that you can't bring yourself to forgive them. i understand what you were saying.. you're passing your judgement on people who don't forgive and making the assumption that they'd have some personal vendetta or grudge, just because they don't forgive.

Originally posted by shaunybaby

Originally posted by babloyi
and if you fail, the murderer goes free

sorry if it's confusing.

Originally posted by babloyi
a desire for personal revenge

Read what I said again. "First you'd have to prove to the entire world about the fault of the murderer .... and if you fail, the murderer goes free, causing you ... a desire for personal revenge ". Please tell me again where I said that not forgiving someone lets them go free and gives you a desire for personal revenge.

I am not making any presumptions or passing any judgements. I never said that not forgiving necessarily leads to a desire for personal revenge. What I said was that forgiving someone would get rid of the desire for personal revenge. I never said anywhere that NOT forgiving someone makes you evil, or bad, etc. I made no such judgemental comment. I never said anywhere that I agree with what I wrote, once again I'll repeat that I was just passing around some ideas for discussion

[edit on 12-9-2006 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
Read what I said again. "First you'd have to prove to the entire world about the fault of the murderer .... and if you fail, the murderer goes free, causing you ... a desire for personal revenge ". Please tell me again where I said that not forgiving someone lets them go free and gives you a desire for personal revenge.

as you seem inept of remembering what you said, or even going back up the page to read, i'll put it here:

Originally posted by babloyi
if you do not forgive, you are just letting yourself in for more trauma. First you'd have to prove to the entire world about the fault of the murderer (the court cases, seeing the murderer again and again) and if you fail, the murderer goes free, causing you more trauma and (perhaps?) a desire for personal revenge (which would cause more trauma and problems).

you assume that if someone does not forgive that they are letting themselves in for more trauma, in fact you assume that almost everything that stems from not-forgiving involves some sort of trauma.

unless you're a lawyer you don't need to prove the murderer is guilty. and unless you were a witness to the crime, you're not really needed in court, other than to be a character witness for the victim, and that's not really neccessary.

and this assumption about personal revenge, and all this personal trauma and problems resulting from not forgiving someone. you assume way to much.

Originally posted by babloyi
I am not making any presumptions or passing any judgements. I never said that not forgiving necessarily leads to a desire for personal revenge. What I said was that forgiving someone would get rid of the desire for personal revenge. I never said anywhere that NOT forgiving someone makes you evil, or bad, etc. I made no such judgemental comment. I never said anywhere that I agree with what I wrote, once again I'll repeat that I was just passing around some ideas for discussion

you did make a lot of presumptions and judgements. i didn't say that you said not forgiving makes someone evil or bad. well if you're going to pass around ideas and throw out ideas you don't even agree with, don't be afraid to have them throw back or have them disagreed with.

[edit on 12-9-2006 by shaunybaby]

[SIGH].....I think we're having trouble here, shaunybaby. If you'll notice, I define forgiveness as 'I do not require to see the perpetrator pay'. On my side, the slate is cleaned. The perpetrator may be punished for what he/she did, but it won't be because of me.

Hence, I'd assume that if you did not forgive, you'd WANT to see the perpetrator punished. So I'd say you'd probably have to attend the trials, etc, and if the murderer got free, and you had not forgiven them, there could be a desire for personal revenge. Random on/off blocking won't make what I said into "If you do not forgive, the murderer goes free and you get the desire for personal revenge".

A person who is prone to trauma could very likely be in for some if someone close to them is murdered. Forgiving them would be a way out. See what I mean? Not forgiving does not mean you get you'll necessarilly have all that emotional burden, but forgiving means that you'll have let go of that emotional burden you had.

Who/What am I judging?


[edit on 12-9-2006 by babloyi]

i can't even be bothered anymore babloyi, you're twisting what you said, denying that's what it meant.. there's just no point.

i'll have a discussion if you want, but you seem to want to change every point of what you wrote and demand it doesn't mean what you wrote and infact means something completely different. figure that out, we may just get somewhere.

Nothing is absolute...except that there are no absolutes...
So even if it appears that way for now, it to will change.

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by dAlen
Nothing is absolute...

If nothing is absolute, isn't this statement absolute?

Originally posted by dAlen
except that there are no absolutes...
So even if it appears that way for now, it to will change.

Isn't saying "it too will change" an absolute statement? If it doesn't change, then your statement isn't absolute, but that which did not change is now absolute. Something indeed is absolute then, the next mission is to find out what. I can explain what that what is for anyone interested.

[edit on 13-9-2006 by saint4God]

Apologies to babloyi for not understanding what you'd said about being a better person. I see what you're saying and though I personally disagree, I can now see where you're coming from. Thanks again.