The Absolute Power of Christianity!

Hi saint, and shaunybaby....

Originally posted by prote
if I told myself something for 15 years, how ingrained would that become?

Originally posted by saint4god
Uhm, I don't "tell myself" anything. That would be retarding.

Sorry. To clarify, my point here is that humans are easily programmable, and by design, I think. Manufactured? (I am currently researching this at the moment). A human being told anything repetetively over a period of time, regardless of source, will have an effect, and a deep rooted one. Hence also my American Idol analogy. I wasn't saying this was true for you, just demonstrating how easy it can be to get people to believe things that to others, simply are not true. Both think they have the truth. One of them MUST be incorrect.

Funny you should bring that up. There is debate even within church walls to say who instigated the meeting. Was it me when I asked for help or was it Him by letting me do some stupid things?

I understand that it is your later experiences that allowed you to see the past more clearly. I also understand that you know that I (or any agnostic) would find this among the most challenging to let go. For myself, I can't see it happening but that's not to say it wouldn't in the future. You were allowed to do stupid things in order to what? to find God? and the true path?

Would this then imply that he purposefully ran you through the crap so you could see? i.e. this is gonna hurt you more than me, cruel to be kind etc.

What of those that have been to the depths of despair and still are not converted to Christianity? What if they find a different God, a different truth with a different path and message?

I don't believe the stupid things you did were unavoidable, sorry. Granted, I don't know what they were but perhaps my imagination has limits to what an individual human can endure. If 5 Christians and 5 Agnostics were in the same terrible ordeal, would you expect the Christians to come out better off, less harmed emotionally? What if it were you and I under torture, would you stake a wager as to who cracks first? How would Christianity help you over my agnostic beliefs?

Am I missing the point? If I am, is inner strength that we discussed previously not the main benefit?

What else do I struggle with... here's one, as there are many, that is along a similar vein. Last night I had to administer discipline to my child. I love my child and had no wish nor desire to see pain come to my kid, nor tears from kid's eyes. But, all other discussions, lectures, forms of discipline had been exhausted. Sometimes doing the right thing can be painful. This explains the cliche "this is going to hurt me more than it's going to hurt you."

I don't wish to get into the old chestnut of how to discipline children. Im ok with whatever you see fit. Your life, your kid. I highlighted this for a different reason, that highlighted in bold. You pick me up for using the word can't here...

I think "can't" is a swear word though and try not to use it. A phrase that defines "can't" for me is "I feel defeated and because of that will no longer try". This is the opposite of "with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible".

The reason I discussed the suicides is because I agree, wholeheartedly. This sentiment is core to what I believe and the reason I believe I have not found the same path as you and billions have before me. This is exactly what you said when you found God, "I can't". You had exhausted all possibilities, you said it yourself. That's not to say there weren't any. Never say never, you said that too.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it is wrong to give in and if God finds you or vice versa and that helps you, great! My point is that those who are in that situation and DIDN'T say I can't, will not find God. At least, they won't find him that way. Correct?

This was an issue for me to grasp. I don't want to say I can't, I don't believe in it and I think this is how most find their faiths. So, by definition, I can never experience what you did in terms of finding God. It will either never work or it would have to be a different way. What do you think?

I know you won't agree but I do believe that you also agree with these "I can't" statements. I don't believe you practice this the way you believe you do. But I do believe that you believe that you do.

It is possible that you may come back with the argument that those people haven't reached that level, hence not found God. What I mean is that how would you know you hit the bottom if you clawed your way out? I suppose the same could be said for finding God. How do you know that if you didn't sink further, there is something even greater? Where did God come from in the first place? However, I would still accept that that argument holds some validity but not a lot.

Many people find their faith simply by being raised within that environment. No depths of despair there. How do these people get proof? There are billions of them. Perhaps my research on programming will answer this.

I don't see God as that much of a micro-manager.

(In response to my question that you believe he interacts with me but I don't know about it). I understand what you say but you side stepped the question. You have personal interaction and/or communication or have done. I don't need to put a label on it, I just wanted to know if you felt that he was involved in what I do somehow, I don't care to what level. If he is, then there must be some way of tapping into God without being driven to despair.

You said yourself, you found God and then started getting back into the Bible and the scriptures and it was 15 years before stepping back into a church. So is it possible to find God if you do NOT fit ANY of the following criteria;

1. You are in despair, suicidal etc as previously discussed.
2. You are raised within that environment and teachings.
3. The teachings of the faith draw you at some point in your life and you wilfully subscribe to their way.

Are there any others?

"Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.' - Matthew 5:42

Can you lend me a few thousand bucks? Thanks.

That does not happen to me. It might for other people but for this "coincidence" to happen on the very same day out of my 70 plus, minus years is strange indeed. I'm trying to incorporate giving wherever I see opportunities now spending more than ten percent towards these things in various places and even though the bills say I should be several hundred dollars in the hole, it always balances out...sometimes even being ahead. Looking at the numbers it makes little sense. This coming from someone who has been in the banking industry for almost ten years now.

Some of your analogies are excellent! Some confuse because they relate to things that can be easily disproved. This is clearly a perception issue...makes me wonder. This is not an analogy though, this is a real life example. Numbers won't just meld to hide a loss unless they are fiddled. It will only balance if you account for the expenditure but i'm not getting into that, I'm no banker but I am a businessman. However, you ARE a banker.

I don't highlight this to pick holes in you, I do this to pick holes in the discussion. I accept that there are occurences that may not be explained by any human means and that it if you accept it as God, then you will find God?

You are seeing God in many, many, many places, the above being one such example. I don't deny for a second that this is, indeed exactly the explanation for many of these things but I am proposing that many of them aren't. The above is simply an example of one such instance that isn't.

I'm beginning to wonder about the comprehension of the suicidal mind. Counselling would not have done the trick for me, sorry.

Counselling did do the trick for you. You were counselled by God. Sorry. (and yourself. even though you may not admit it). Counselling is not turning up to a beige room for an hour once a week.

Another benefit I'd received was inner strength though it was not by my doing.

[sigh] You can you know, you really can! Even if I concede that God saved you, you still had to be willing at some point. You still made a positive decision. I don't know why this is so hard to grasp. You can keep your God and still be capable, surely?

Faith in... what?

I have faith in many things, the main ones are...
1. That a creator/supreme being(s), God, is watching over us and has a plan.
2. That I have, and always will have, the strength to cope with every situation I face.
3. That I have a Soul.
4. That selflessness is the key to pass judgement.
5. That life is eternal.
6. That Everything will be alright!

What history did Christianity "rewrite"?

I did not mean that. History is not to be trusted. The further back you go, the more distorted things become. Victors of battles rewrite what happened or they record events to suit themselves, to their own agenda. Vast quantities of information gets destroyed, even more gets stifled and suppressed. Christianity is among many other "things" that has been around throughout all this time. We only got the printing press, what, 400 years ago? I can't begin to imagine the distortions that have taken place throughout the WHOLE WORLD in the last 2000 years. Christianity is also simply now too vast a subject to easily interpret therefore there are many infractions, interpretations and branches. I just think updating it and bringing it in line with today would be a massive benefit, kids just aren't interested, it's boring and folk like myself can't join the club because we already have strength. Despite our belief in God, he won't answer the phone.

Show me then how "love your neighbor" is the wrong thing to do and we'll talk.

All religions talk this way. It is not the wrong message and is absolutely the right message. It's another old chestnut, I know but forgive me. I could give you a dozen or so pretty nasty personal experiences. I won't single out christianity because other religions were involved in my holding a viewpoint that such a wonderful message is taught yet a vast percentage of all life's horror's (that I encountered) had a recurring theme, usually around some belief or another that had me shocked and puzzled.

Child abuse, honor killings, murder, rape, pedophilia, war, power, corruption and the like is another discussion entirely and I know that all levels of society have bad eggs. I don't believe that you, for example, would ever do anything remotely so awful but if just ONE person who truly knew the path that you speak of committed any of these appalling type of acts, then, well, I'm just speechless and each and every one of them is a big fat raspberry in the face of all that it stands for.

I live a decent, moral, selfless as I can lifestyle and yet God is very 'pally' with some pretty disgusting miscreants, but I, who feel as enlightened as you do, am not invited to the club.

Mr."can't make that leap of faith" is telling others to let go? Please.

Unless you're confusing what I suggest you let go of.

Clarify.

If any of my ramblings are anywhere near correct then there is a vast portion of every religion that really doesn''t understand the nature of the truths that you speak. Surely, many (enter religion here) will shout about and debate their faith from the rooftops but some of them surely lie about their faith or experience because I find it a bitter pill to swallow to think that someone who is in direct contact with God somehow, would even consider committing any such atrocity. (hence hypocrisy).

Therefore I conclude that this portion of the respective community are dishonest. They don't really know or understand what it is they believe and these "misguided" portion tear at the fabric of the message these religions try to promote. Just looking around it seems that fewer are adopting these mainstream ideologies. What happens when no-one is able to make these leaps anymore? What would happen if Christianity just fizzled out? Would he wipe us all out and start again? There has to be another way if it's true.

Letting go is to do with honesty. If everyone was totally forthright in communicating what they truly believed, we could clear some of the murk. If you are honest with yourself, you realise that you can! You will realise that God doesn't simply adapt mathematics to allow you to give to the needy. That doesn't mean he doesn't do other wonderful things in your life.

He disagreed though and pursued like a lawyer upon someone who reneged on a contract.

That's not something I will submit to. Come on, what are you saying?

Originally posted by Prote
Are you able to disclose what it was you wanted? and got.

Yes, by U2U if you promise not to do the same thing. I have very few regrets, but one of them is discussing this and someone else making the same mistake. I haven't seen him recover and worry still about him.

I am very intrigued.

I do so not because it is secret or confidential, but because I have seen what happens when a person got so curious that they decided to validate it from themselves.

Try me. I promise I will resist temptation.

I'm beginning to wonder about the comprehension of the suicidal mind. Counselling would not have done the trick for me, sorry. Neither would any amount of self-inflation. It' was for me superficial nonsense and I was sick of it.

If you reverse this statement by saying it about Christianity, I reckon it would upset a few. I would like to call religion superficial nonsense, but I have refrained from doing so. upto now.

Don't you think as a non-believe I would have tried to save myself?

Yes. and I'm not denying you tried. You still gave up. You still said "I can't". That word you don't like that's like a swear word.

Therefore the gift of a miracle is greater than winning a million dollars.

You missed the point completely.

If you say you've never heard God speaking to you before, I'll say that indeed He has been (and yes I know this), now all we have to do is check your connection to make sure you're hearing it.

If you "know" this, then that's fact, not faith. ok, how do I 'tune in'?

Now, if you're asking what YOUR next step should be

I am. But I don't want any of the church and bible stuff, is that possible?

then I think I can be of some help.

ok, but let's give it a bit longer. you may change your mind. I'm really not convinced you are more enlightened than I and I think you are far further into your faith than most so I wonder about their convictions but I digress. I wouldn't like to rule out the possibility that your perceptions are a tad misted but this conversation is enlightening in itself in many respects.

I believe God wants us to understand Him. I also believe we are incapable of comprehending God at once or in totale. It may occur postmortem but I don't know.

you don't know? How can you say that you are incapable (again, I can't!!) of comprehending? You talk to him, communicate with him. I don't want to go round in circles...

Well, of course, I haven't witnessed anything so can't readily agree.
On the contrary, it just wasn't labeled properly.

I have issue with your labelling system. See: Money Management.

There's the miracle that I'm still alive. It's hard to describe but I was heading to self-destruction and required an actual change of course to stop it. I "saw" that end coming and was yanked from it. An object in motion will remain in motion unless acted upon by an outside force. Newton's laws describe a bit about how we think and act many times, not just a physical universe.

You are using Newton to describe finding God. If this is true, then you can't make a decision without Gods intervention. Saint, either you are completely pulling my chain with this or you are contradicting yourself, regularly.

I know I know if I have so much proof, why don't I share it? I can't. It's my proof and if no-one else experiences it, they couldn't possibly consider it their own. What I can do is help others obtain theirs.

But you have demonstrated that your proofs are not really very concrete. Unless all the smoking gun's are locked up in the personal detail. I guess this is a question, kinda.

If I can help establish that link, you can tap into getting all the answers you like.

What would that entail? I may already have more answers than you think.

I didn't mean it in a demeaning way, I meant it in a perspective way. God has given us remarkable capabilities

Apparently, and by your own admission, he hasn't given you any!

How can you say "no-one has any clue what the truth is"? That would mean that not only do you know everyone but also you know what's inside their head AND heart. Quite a bold statement coming from a mere human.

Yes, good point. I concede that it is inaccurate for me to make this statement. I retract it. Would you like me to provide a list of your bold statements?

I also hope there's no-one of Chinese ethnicity reading this thread, else they should have something to say about the misnomer.

No offence intended. Apologies if any was taken. It is a description for messages being twisted as they pass from person to person. I thought that was common knowledge and the reference to the chinese, well, I honestly don't know if there is actually any connection. What would be your motivation for pointing that out? I'm a little disappointed.

Otherpeopletian

Whats that? I did a search and zip.

with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible

All things are possible. Thats all.


[edit on 30/9/06 by Prote]

Originally posted by Shadowflux
Bah, atheists, who needs them.

So you were....born a believer then?

Originally posted by Shadowflux
Too bad they don't realize that even they are already saved.

This isn't what God says. Feel free to show me where in the Bible that this is the case.

Originally posted by Prote
Sorry. To clarify, my point here is that humans are easily programmable, and by design, I think.

That's a sad way to feel about it. There's enough evidence out there to say otherwise though so no need for me to go into that detail here and now.

Originally posted by Prote
Manufactured? (I am currently researching this at the moment). A human being told anything repetetively over a period of time, regardless of source, will have an effect, and a deep rooted one. Hence also my American Idol analogy. I wasn't saying this was true for you, just demonstrating how easy it can be to get people to believe things that to others, simply are not true. Both think they have the truth. One of them MUST be incorrect.

I hope we've already discounted this as being the case for me. And, no matter how "deeply" one's program may seem, most of the time deep down they know better and reality slaps them around a bit.

Originally posted by Prote
I understand that it is your later experiences that allowed you to see the past more clearly. I also understand that you know that I (or any agnostic) would find this among the most challenging to let go.

Surely, and understandable.

Originally posted by Prote
For myself, I can't see it happening but that's not to say it wouldn't in the future.

A good open-minded approach I think. Moreso than what I had been considering.

Originally posted by Prote
You were allowed to do stupid things in order to what? to find God? and the true path?

I'm not entirely sure. I believe that knife to wrist, I was going to be let to do what I pursued. Others disagree. Some say since I am where I am, that no matter what I couldn't have done it. I'll find out later though, but it certainly felt as if I was being let go. There are Biblical supports to both ends, those prevented from pursuing the wrong course (Jonah) and those allowed to pursue the wrong course (Adam and Eve). Ultimately God decides.

Originally posted by Prote
Would this then imply that he purposefully ran you through the crap so you could see? i.e. this is gonna hurt you more than me, cruel to be kind etc.

Many feel this is the case but I don't. I think He was tired of my resistance and let me go for a while unless I came to Him. I could be wrong, not sure. I do have proofs though that he disciplines the ones he loves per the following:

Proverbs 3:12
"because the LORD disciplines those he loves, as a father the son he delights in."

Hebrews 12:6
"because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."

Originally posted by Prote
What of those that have been to the depths of despair and still are not converted to Christianity?

We don't really know for sure. It's the free will versus predestination argument. I can go off of what I know, which is I turned to Him for help and got it when all else failed.

Originally posted by Prote
What if they find a different God, a different truth with a different path and message?

I didn't pursue just God. I invited everything. This a bad idea, as I soon found out.

Originally posted by Prote
I don't believe the stupid things you did were unavoidable, sorry.

Neither do I.

Originally posted by Prote
Granted, I don't know what they were but perhaps my imagination has limits to what an individual human can endure. If 5 Christians and 5 Agnostics were in the same terrible ordeal, would you expect the Christians to come out better off, less harmed emotionally?

There are a lot of "if" conditions to explore in that scenario. I think one who does hold fast to God has a stronger endurance towards these kinds than one who does not. I would not have been neither swept nor pursued if I had believed in the first place.

Originally posted by Prote
What if it were you and I under torture, would you stake a wager as to who cracks first?

No, that's not the kind of endurance I'm speaking of. Physical endurance is proportionaly to physical strength whereas spiritual endurance is proportional to spiritual strength. That's what I gather, though have heard of spiritual strength also generating physical endurance but am unable to quantify such.

Originally posted by Prote
How would Christianity help you over my agnostic beliefs?

I demanded answers, proofs, and validation perhaps has a result of my agnosticism. Agnosticism did not contain any of these three.

Originally posted by Prote
Am I missing the point? If I am, is inner strength that we discussed previously not the main benefit?

It is a benefit, but the main benefit is the gift of eternal life and a working relationship with God.

Originally posted by Prote
I don't wish to get into the old chestnut of how to discipline children. Im ok with whatever you see fit. Your life, your kid. I highlighted this for a different reason, that highlighted in bold. You pick me up for using the word can't here...

Sorry for the oration on it, just believe you're too capable than to accept "can't" as an answer.

Originally posted by Prote
The reason I discussed the suicides is because I agree, wholeheartedly. This sentiment is core to what I believe and the reason I believe I have not found the same path as you and billions have before me. This is exactly what you said when you found God, "I can't". You had exhausted all possibilities, you said it yourself. That's not to say there weren't any. Never say never, you said that too.

I admit. I used to be an "I can't" thinker as well. It could be why, after knowing better, I would discourage others from that mode of thinking.

Originally posted by Prote
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that it is wrong to give in and if God finds you or vice versa and that helps you, great! My point is that those who are in that situation and DIDN'T say I can't, will not find God. At least, they won't find him that way. Correct?

During all that "I can't" thinking though, I had overcome it for one moment. I managed to believe I could be rescued and reached out, "with man this is impossible but with God all things are possible". There is that One important element that changes an "I can't" to an "I can". It would not have mattered if I thought I could get through it on my own or not. I was being broken at every turn until I would submit. It's easy to say "I can take care of myself!" but when the bullet is in your chest, reality sets in.

Originally posted by Prote
This was an issue for me to grasp. I don't want to say I can't, I don't believe in it

I think that's a better way of putting it. Instead of being incapable, it goes to being unwilling which is probably a more accurate description.

Originally posted by Prote
and I think this is how most find their faiths. So, by definition, I can never experience what you did in terms of finding God.

Why not? There are much safer ways, that's what I'm advocating.

Originally posted by Prote
It will either never work or it would have to be a different way. What do you think?

I think you've included a self-limiting factor but I don't know why.

Originally posted by Prote
I know you won't agree but I do believe that you also agree with these "I can't" statements.

Negative, else I'd not bother discussing. Why would I waste what little time I have on things that can't be done?

Originally posted by Prote
I don't believe you practice this the way you believe you do. But I do believe that you believe that you do.

I recognize that I have shortcomings, but I try. The best students are teachers sometimes. As I say things, I hear them myself.

Originally posted by Prote
It is possible that you may come back with the argument that those people haven't reached that level, hence not found God. What I mean is that how would you know you hit the bottom if you clawed your way out?

It's not for me to judge where others are at. I can say I had hit the bottom because I nearly lost life and soul within a week. It doesn't get worse than that.

(more to come...)

Originally posted by Prote
I suppose the same could be said for finding God. How do you know that if you didn't sink further, there is something even greater?

There was nowhere further to sink. I would be dead, that was the next step.

Originally posted by Prote
Where did God come from in the first place?

That's a great question.

Originally posted by Prote
However, I would still accept that that argument holds some validity but not a lot.

Thanks, I'll take what I can get

Originally posted by Prote
Many people find their faith simply by being raised within that environment. No depths of despair there. How do these people get proof? There are billions of them. Perhaps my research on programming will answer this.

Another good question, one which I know very little about. I have met people who said that they've always believed God existed so doubt really wasn't an issue for them. It's a puzzle to me since I'm not one of them, but I can accept that there are people who have faith that is so great that proof is not necessary. I admire it, respect it, but wasn't my history. I have greater faith now, but took lots of time and convincing.

Originally posted by Prote
(In response to my question that you believe he interacts with me but I don't know about it). I understand what you say but you side stepped the question.

Apologies and not intentional. I'd like to try again.

Originally posted by Prote
You have personal interaction and/or communication or have done. I don't need to put a label on it, I just wanted to know if you felt that he was involved in what I do somehow, I don't care to what level.

Absolutely and I have my proof. That usually prompts people for me to share that proof, but my proof isn't proof enough for anyone else I'm sure.

Originally posted by Prote
If he is, then there must be some way of tapping into God without being driven to despair.

YES!, that's totally it & would be glad to help if you wish it.

Originally posted by Prote
You said yourself, you found God and then started getting back into the Bible and the scriptures and it was 15 years before stepping back into a church.

Not stepping back into a church, rather stepping into a church. As with a lot of people, I attended when people asked or felt it had been a few years since I went to one.

Originally posted by Prote
So is it possible to find God if you do NOT fit ANY of the following criteria;

1. You are in despair, suicidal etc as previously discussed.
2. You are raised within that environment and teachings.
3. The teachings of the faith draw you at some point in your life and you wilfully subscribe to their way.

Are there any others?

Paul hadn't had any of these yet he was the greatest missionary who ever live. Countless examples throughout the Book, let alone in daily life. I don't see where God uses cookie-cutter techniques or modes of communication.

(more to come...)

[edit on 2-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Prote
Can you lend me a few thousand bucks? Thanks.

Now you can see why "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." (Mark 10:25). I do not have a few thousand bucks unfortunately, but what I do have I give to you freely...and it'll last a lot longer than a few thousand bucks. I have a lot of promises to pay (debts) so I'm looking to keep my word with them as well, but am working on resolving soon so that when someone asks if they can borrow a few thousand I can say, "yes" to this request as well. It is heartbreaking to not be able to provide as asked. If you need some money to get by, I might be able to help with that and delay my debtors a little longer. I have learned to control my spending so that I can save a little bit and help though. No plasma TV in my living room, no Lexus in my carport. Not saying these things are bad, but they would be bad for me if that's the reason why I cannot help someone who is in need of food.

Originally posted by Prote
Some of your analogies are excellent! Some confuse because they relate to things that can be easily disproved. This is clearly a perception issue...makes me wonder. This is not an analogy though, this is a real life example. Numbers won't just meld to hide a loss unless they are fiddled. It will only balance if you account for the expenditure but i'm not getting into that, I'm no banker but I am a businessman. However, you ARE a banker.

Banker, businessman, not much different really. The funds can be justified, but it doesn't mean it makes sense. When you get something in the mail saying, "we've overcharged you, here's a check for a hundred-something" at the exact moment you come up a hundred dollars short for the month, it's something that makes you go hmm.... How many "coincidences" have to occur before they are no longer coincidental?

Originally posted by Prote
I don't highlight this to pick holes in you, I do this to pick holes in the discussion. I accept that there are occurences that may not be explained by any human means and that it if you accept it as God, then you will find God?

Not necessarily. It could be a step, I'm not entirely sure. I prefer to go to the source myself than looking for signs.

Originally posted by Prote
You are seeing God in many, many, many places, the above being one such example. I don't deny for a second that this is, indeed exactly the explanation for many of these things but I am proposing that many of them aren't. The above is simply an example of one such instance that isn't.

I think a lot of us like to "explain away" things with a nice pat answer without truly knowing. We chalk it up to luck, chance or other such things that tend to disprove themselves over time.

Originally posted by Prote
Counselling did do the trick for you. You were counselled by God. Sorry.

Touche'

Originally posted by Prote
(and yourself. even though you may not admit it). Counselling is not turning up to a beige room for an hour once a week.

Fair enough, I was thinking of human counsel which fell short. I appreciate this expanded definition as well and will be more careful about addressing such.

Originally posted by Prote
[sigh] You can you know, you really can! Even if I concede that God saved you, you still had to be willing at some point. You still made a positive decision. I don't know why this is so hard to grasp. You can keep your God and still be capable, surely?

Yes, but I didn't realize that at the time. At the time I was like "I give up! I quit! God do something because I'm sick of the pain". I gave Him a chance just like I gave all the others a chance. I guess you can say that I had believed in others as well for rescue though it did not come. The difference was upon delivery.

Originally posted by Prote
I have faith in many things, the main ones are...
1. That a creator/supreme being(s), God, is watching over us and has a plan.
2. That I have, and always will have, the strength to cope with every situation I face.
3. That I have a Soul.
4. That selflessness is the key to pass judgement.
5. That life is eternal.
6. That Everything will be alright!

I think these are dependable principles. To address #1 too, indeed He has a plan and has shared some if it with us. It's up to us to either accept or reject that plan.

Originally posted by Prote
I did not mean that. History is not to be trusted. The further back you go, the more distorted things become. Victors of battles rewrite what happened or they record events to suit themselves, to their own agenda. Vast quantities of information gets destroyed, even more gets stifled and suppressed. Christianity is among many other "things" that has been around throughout all this time. We only got the printing press, what, 400 years ago? I can't begin to imagine the distortions that have taken place throughout the WHOLE WORLD in the last 2000 years. Christianity is also simply now too vast a subject to easily interpret therefore there are many infractions, interpretations and branches.

Have you ever wondered though why despite these branches the message remains the same? I'd invite anyone to visit a Baptist church one week, Methodist church the next, Presbyterian one after, then a non-demoniational one for week four. Then, we'll meet up and talk about what differences there are among them. Dead Seas Scrolls were an interesting discovery as well, demonstrating an unaltered word. The NIV is translated by over a hundred scholars in an eight year project to get the most accurate translation from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Hebrew. I'm sure it's not as precise as knowing those three languages, but I have talked to those who have read them and they seem to be a pretty tight fit.

Originally posted by Prote
I just think updating it and bringing it in line with today would be a massive benefit, kids just aren't interested, it's boring and folk like myself can't join the club because we already have strength.

Indeed we do not need to depend solely on a Book, as that was not my approach either. He's alive. Right now.

Originally posted by Prote
Despite our belief in God, he won't answer the phone.

Did you call?

[edit on 2-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Prote
All religions talk this way.

Not all, but probably a discussion for when we have fewer things to talk about.

Originally posted by Prote
It is not the wrong message and is absolutely the right message.

Good! Glad we can agree on this point.

Originally posted by Prote
It's another old chestnut, I know but forgive me. I could give you a dozen or so pretty nasty personal experiences. I won't single out christianity because other religions were involved in my holding a viewpoint that such a wonderful message is taught yet a vast percentage of all life's horror's (that I encountered) had a recurring theme, usually around some belief or another that had me shocked and puzzled.

If you can agree that the message is "absolutely the right message", then I submit that the messenger too is "absolutely the right messenger". We both know how prone to error people are, but since we're discussing CHRISTianity, it should stand to reason then that we should focus on the message and the Christ who had given it. He especially said there were, is and will be hypocrites.

Originally posted by Prote
Child abuse, honor killings, murder, rape, pedophilia, war, power, corruption and the like is another discussion entirely and I know that all levels of society have bad eggs. I don't believe that you, for example, would ever do anything remotely so awful but if just ONE person who truly knew the path that you speak of committed any of these appalling type of acts, then, well, I'm just speechless and each and every one of them is a big fat raspberry in the face of all that it stands for.

There was ONE person who truly knew the path I speak of and he did not commit any appalling acts.

Originally posted by Prote
I live a decent, moral, selfless as I can lifestyle and yet God is very 'pally' with some pretty disgusting miscreants,

Are you suuuuuurreee? I'm interested how you know.

Originally posted by Prote
but I, who feel as enlightened as you do, am not invited to the club.

On the contrary, I invite you to go where I go. But, you needn't follow me when you can have youre own personal relationship through Christ. If you were local I'd say let's do lunch. You're welcome to come to Sunday service with me, Kung-Fu if that's your thing, etc.

Originally posted by Prote
Unless you're confusing what I suggest you let go of.

Could be, but we're both saying let go.

Originally posted by Prote
If any of my ramblings are anywhere near correct then there is a vast portion of every religion that really doesn''t understand the nature of the truths that you speak. Surely, many (enter religion here) will shout about and debate their faith from the rooftops but some of them surely lie about their faith or experience because I find it a bitter pill to swallow to think that someone who is in direct contact with God somehow, would even consider committing any such atrocity. (hence hypocrisy).

Lies fall apart upon weight. Apply pressure as you see fit to test truth.

Originally posted by Prote
Therefore I conclude that this portion of the respective community are dishonest.

Could be, but why look towards respective communities? What do they have to do with your relationship with God?

Originally posted by Prote
They don't really know or understand what it is they believe and these "misguided" portion tear at the fabric of the message these religions try to promote. Just looking around it seems that fewer are adopting these mainstream ideologies.

Not really my concern. I'm not placed here to point my finger to various people in a crowd and say "you're a hypocrite. You're not. You are. You're not. You're not, but you are." Thank goodness too, it's an exhaustively pointless work which has no bearing upon the truth that lay in a person's heart.

Originally posted by Prote
What happens when no-one is able to make these leaps anymore? What would happen if Christianity just fizzled out? Would he wipe us all out and start again? There has to be another way if it's true.

You worry too much . One of the nice things about God is He gets to run the universe. I don't have to. I've got my part to play, true, but it's no bigger than the things I can affect.

Originally posted by Prote
Letting go is to do with honesty. If everyone was totally forthright in communicating what they truly believed, we could clear some of the murk.

Totally!

Originally posted by Prote
If you are honest with yourself, you realise that you can! You will realise that God doesn't simply adapt mathematics to allow you to give to the needy. That doesn't mean he doesn't do other wonderful things in your life.

Amen.

Originally posted by Prote
That's not something I will submit to. Come on, what are you saying?

I'm saying evil (or the embodiment thereof) was wanting to beat me into submission and nearly succeeded because when you're broken, all you really want to do it get it to stop. If that means submitting, all of the sudden you see a pen in your hand and a paper before you. Using analogy here, I didn't actually have to sign. It's not that complicated.

Originally posted by Prote
Try me. I promise I will resist temptation.

Resisting temptation is all well and good when assuming there are no other forces present.

Originally posted by Prote
If you reverse this statement by saying it about Christianity, I reckon it would upset a few.

That was my feeling at the time. I'd think I know me better than others would.

Originally posted by Prote
I would like to call religion superficial nonsense, but I have refrained from doing so. upto now.

That's certainly your right sir. But, what I was interested in is the truth. In fact, I agreed at one point so I can see where you're coming from. That's exactly what changed.

Originally posted by Prote
Yes. and I'm not denying you tried. You still gave up. You still said "I can't". That word you don't like that's like a swear word.

I said many swear words during that stage in my life and tried many "out"s in an attempt to find one that would work. Recall why I say "can't" should not be in our vocabulary.

Originally posted by Prote
You missed the point completely.

Sorry, I'd like to try again to get it.

Originally posted by Prote
If you "know" this, then that's fact, not faith.

Right. I don't have faith that God has been speaking to you.

Originally posted by Prote
ok, how do I 'tune in'?

Great! Even that interest is very significant. Long discussion to which I'd like to ask some questions specific to you. Care to U2U?

Originally posted by Prote
I am. But I don't want any of the church and bible stuff, is that possible?

I shall do my best. I'm not going to ask you to go to a church or go read a book for that.

Originally posted by Prote
ok, but let's give it a bit longer. you may change your mind. I'm really not convinced you are more enlightened than I and I think you are far further into your faith than most so I wonder about their convictions but I digress. I wouldn't like to rule out the possibility that your perceptions are a tad misted but this conversation is enlightening in itself in many respects.

Glad to help, and I never ever wanna represent myself to be anything more than I am. I don't see myself as any "better" than anyone else. In fact, I see clearly where I'm a bit more skeptical and hard-headed than the average person. I'm grateful for the gifts I've received and understand I deserve none of it.

Originally posted by Prote
you don't know?

Nope, I don't know if we'll ever know all that God knows.

Originally posted by Prote
How can you say that you are incapable (again, I can't!!) of comprehending?

Because I've seen stuff happening and while it was I did not understand why. Then later discovered the answer was an "easy" one from His viewpoint. I felt like "duh" , should've seen that all along. As a science major, there are more questions than there are answers. I will not get to them all before my last day on earth. It's possible should God be willing, but by myself it isn't.

Originally posted by Prote
You talk to him, communicate with him.

I don't want to go round in circles...

I have a basic understanding of Him and some tools He's placed into my hands. That's enough to let me get to work and learn as I go.

Originally posted by Prote
I have issue with your labelling system. See: Money Management.

Understandable, but it doesn't mean it's nonsense. It came about via some way and perhaps can share the method thoughout the discussion.

Originally posted by Prote
You are using Newton to describe finding God.

I like Newton. Talked well about our physical environment...which as a believer is considered to be God created.

Originally posted by Prote
If this is true, then you can't make a decision without Gods intervention.

Touche' again. That's what the church I'm attending is trying to tell me.

Originally posted by Prote
Saint, either you are completely pulling my chain with this or you are contradicting yourself, regularly.

I have no desire nor gain by "pulling your chain" but I believe it has a lot to do with relationship dynamics. Pardon if I've used this illustration before, but it's like asking a husband, "did you marry your wife because you loved her, or because she loved you?"

Originally posted by Prote
But you have demonstrated that your proofs are not really very concrete. Unless all the smoking gun's are locked up in the personal detail. I guess this is a question, kinda.

It's true I may not have demonstrated this, but again will not avoid detail. Just would rather go through that travelogue via U2U than fill pages here.

Originally posted by Prote
What would that entail? I may already have more answers than you think.

More than likely you do but I couldn't possibly know your history unless you're willing to share at length. One of the reasons why I'd mentioned the U2U idea, there we can talk about as much as we want about that sort of thing without being considered "off-topic" or reaching our 10,000 character maximum (which I've been hitting nearly every post )

Originally posted by Prote
Apparently, and by your own admission, he hasn't given you any!

Ultimately we would not breathe without Him, but He has given us breath so that we may use it.

Originally posted by Prote
Yes, good point. I concede that it is inaccurate for me to make this statement. I retract it. Would you like me to provide a list of your bold statements?

I don't think it's necessary, I think I can point them out to myself but if it'll help by all means feel free to do so.

Originally posted by Prote
No offence intended. Apologies if any was taken. It is a description for messages being twisted as they pass from person to person.

*nods*

Originally posted by Prote
I thought that was common knowledge and the reference to the chinese, well, I honestly don't know if there is actually any connection. What would be your motivation for pointing that out? I'm a little disappointed.

I'd not heard the phrase before so it struck a strange chord. I recognized it to be cliche' but no further. Just to raise consciousness to things we accept as "normal" and be aware. Sometimes that stings, so I've learned....but I did learn.

Originally posted by Prote

Otherpeopletian

Whats that? I did a search and zip.

A word I invented composed of "other people" and "tian". It's definition would be "those who follow other people". There's an equivalent that is more widely accepted called "sheeple". Whereas there are "Otherpeopletian" who look at, follow and worship(?) other people, there are CHRISTians who look at, follow and worship through Christ. *makes a note to send a letter to Merriam Webster about Otherpeopletians*

Originally posted by Prote

with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible

All things are possible. Thats all.

Given my statement here and yours, it looks to me yours suggests that things all things are possible without God. Am I reading this correctly?

[edit on 2-10-2006 by saint4God]

I have contended that miracles do indeed exist. From someone else in my study group, I thought I'd share the following:

"After 4 weeks of fervent prayers by the saints, the mysterious swelling in my lower left leg, especially my foot, has almost completely disappeared. For the first time in a month, I was able to put on a shoe this past Friday. The doctors never discovered what the problem was, even after many tests. However, I can surely tell them what the cure was!

Thanks,
Sean"

One thing I think we Christians can do a better job on is following up with our prayers. We have a tendency to hear something like this, say "good" with a nod to God and move on to the next person who may need prayer. Take a moment to be grateful and thankful for the power God has given to cure things seemingly incurable by the eyes of man. Notice how brother Sean follows up by saying, " I can surely tell them what the cure was!" which is exactly what we're directed to do in the great commission, to go and tell the good news . The greatest of these miralces is the curing of the spirit. Though the medical evidence may not be apparent, the change should be abundantly clear.

[edit on 11-10-2006 by saint4God]

If God cures all with cancer then I'd deem that worthy of praise..

Making a little bit of swelling go away on someone's leg? And this is the same God that supposedly created the whole universe, yet when it comes to miracles he's only able to cure little tumors or a bit of a swolen leg?

I mean come on.. Are you kidding? I don't see that as anything devine. Heck, put some TCP on it and it'll be alright.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
If God cures all with cancer then I'd deem that worthy of praise..

Making a little bit of swelling go away on someone's leg? And this is the same God that supposedly created the whole universe, yet when it comes to miracles he's only able to cure little tumors or a bit of a swolen leg?

I mean come on.. Are you kidding? I don't see that as anything devine. Heck, put some TCP on it and it'll be alright.

Let's check it out:

"But I have had God's help to this very day, and so I stand here and testify to small and great alike." - Acts 26:22

Great - Creating the universe.

Small - Pain from an undiagnosable swollen foot.

I'd put the brain tumor in between as malignant brain tumors often lead to a painful death.

So far, so true.

Originally posted by saint4God
Great - Creating the universe.

Then why not rid the world of cancer and do something truly amazing?

Originally posted by saint4God
Small - Pain from an undiagnosable swollen foot.

Same answer as above.

Originally posted by saint4God
I'd put the brain tumor in between as malignant brain tumors often lead to a painful death.

Yeah, it's what my Dad died of.

I fail to understand why God can create a universe, yet allow millions to die of diseases that technically could be heald by the power of prayer. Why heal a swollen foot? To what aid is that? Why not heal a person that can't walk, can't see etc etc etc..

Healing a swollen foot is not devine.. Healing the world of cancer or aids would be.. To God that should be a walk in the park. So why the heck is he spending his time healing swollen feet?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Then why not rid the world of cancer and do something truly amazing?

You're assuming a bunch of things that may not be true. Firstly, that what you think is best for the universe is indeed what is best for the universe. Second, that God does not what the best for us. Third, God is doing the wrong thing by permitting painful things to happen. Ad infinitum. He tells us His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. If it is indeed an inhibitory question, then I'd recommend asking Him yourself. You'll get your answer, but need to be patient and accept the form for which He wishes to communicate it. I have a few links that explain why God lets bad things happen, but doubt it is as convincing as God Himself.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Yeah, it's what my Dad died of.

I've lost a number of family, some recently, to cancer as well. Father-in-law died of brain cancer. Malignant Melanoma. It's the reason why I decided to take biology and study genetics.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I fail to understand why God can create a universe, yet allow millions to die of diseases that technically could be heald by the power of prayer.

The power of prayer submits to the authority of God. Ultimately He gets to say and knows the purposes thereof. We can only request and be thankful for what we have.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Why heal a swollen foot? To what aid is that?

Apparently per the mail I quoted was so that Sean could proclaim the good news to friends, family, doctors and anyone else who would listen to the miracle. Why heal someone who is going to thank science?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Why not heal a person that can't walk, can't see etc etc etc..

This did happen in the Bible and happens still today. That's what I'm demonstrating.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Healing a swollen foot is not devine..

And you know this...how?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Healing the world of cancer or aids would be..

And you don't believe this is happening...why? I've shown one (and there are many many many more) case.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
To God that should be a walk in the park.

No doubt.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
So why the heck is he spending his time healing swollen feet?

As I said, all things great and small. What Sean is doing was to God's greater purpose. If God allows a believer to die and go to heaven, is that a blessing or sorrow? For that person no doubt it is a blessing though through the pain of death. Think about eternity in heaven, full of fun and excitement. Do you think that would be worth a little pain here? Surely it could've been this way without the pain, but we had chosen otherwise.

Originally posted by saint4God
You're assuming a bunch of things that may not be true. Firstly, that what you think is best for the universe is indeed what is best for the universe. Second, that God does not what the best for us. Third, God is doing the wrong thing by permitting painful things to happen. Ad infinitum. He tells us His ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts. If it is indeed an inhibitory question, then I'd recommend asking Him yourself. You'll get your answer, but need to be patient and accept the form for which He wishes to communicate it. I have a few links that explain why God lets bad things happen, but doubt it is as convincing as God Himself.

You couldn't be further from what I was trying to say..

I was trying to point out that curing all cancer would be truly great..

Curing cancer and curing a swollen ankle, is no different to God. They're both as easy to accomplish as each other, as this is God. There's nothing too difficult, and nothing impossible for God. Hence, why not just cure all cancer?

Originally posted by saint4God
The power of prayer submits to the authority of God. Ultimately He gets to say and knows the purposes thereof. We can only request and be thankful for what we have.

Surely Jesus said that if you pray then God will listen. So long as the prayer isn't 'Give me a million dollars' and that the prayer is unselfish, then it will be answered. Then surely if you prayed for there to be no more cancer in the world, it should therefore be answered by God. His answer should be to cure all cancer. The reason this doesn't happen though is not because God is made up, false, imaginary, it's because God apparently made the concious decision not to cure all cancer..

Originally posted by saint4God
Apparently per the mail I quoted was so that Sean could proclaim the good news to friends, family, doctors and anyone else who would listen to the miracle. Why heal someone who is going to thank science?

A swollen ankle going away is now a miracle?

Stretching it a bit aren't you? Are you that desperate for a miracle that you've turned to healing swollen ankles to proclaim God's devinity?

Originally posted by saint4God
This did happen in the Bible and happens still today. That's what I'm demonstrating.

If it happens and did happen, then why do we still have deaf people, blind people, people who can't walk, and so on..

If what you're demonstrating is true, then God chooses to cure 'some' people, yet let other people just 'get on with it'. Why then cure some people, but not all of them. That's like a doctor coming in a room and saying to two people who need the same operation otherwise they'll die.. ''right, we can only operate on one of you, that one will live, and the other will die.. so who's heads and who's tails''..

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Healing the world of cancer or aids would be..

Originally posted by saint4God
And you don't believe this is happening...why? I've shown one (and there are many many many more) case.

You said you've lost relatives to cancer, and so have I. So surely that demonstrates, if anything, that God's obviously not working hard enough to cure it.. Or maybe we're just not praying hard enough.. EVERYONE DOWN ON YOUR KNEES NOW!

[edit on 12-10-2006 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
You couldn't be further from what I was trying to say..

I was trying to point out that curing all cancer would be truly great..

I think so, but then again I cannot see everything.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Curing cancer and curing a swollen ankle, is no different to God. They're both as easy to accomplish as each other, as this is God. There's nothing too difficult, and nothing impossible for God.

Absolutely true.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Hence, why not just cure all cancer?

That's a good question...to ask Him. I wouldn't be surprise though if He gives the same answer He has already given which is "My thoughts are not your thoughts, My ways are not your ways." I take it to mean there's a bigger plan that we cannot see.

Originally posted by saint4God
Surely Jesus said that if you pray then God will listen.

Totally agree.

Originally posted by saint4God
So long as the prayer isn't 'Give me a million dollars' and that the prayer is unselfish, then it will be answered. Then surely if you prayed for there to be no more cancer in the world, it should therefore be answered by God. His answer should be to cure all cancer.

We can surely try. Would you be willing to try with me? Granted God is still God, not a genie-slave in our little lamp.

Originally posted by saint4God
The reason this doesn't happen though is not because God is made up, false, imaginary, it's because God apparently made the concious decision not to cure all cancer..

If you had a child with that attitude, would you grant their requests?

Originally posted by saint4God
A swollen ankle going away is now a miracle?

It is for him. As previously quoted, things great and small.

Originally posted by saint4God
Stretching it a bit aren't you?

It wasn't MY e-mail, I merely quoted it.

Originally posted by saint4God
Are you that desperate for a miracle that you've turned to healing swollen ankles to proclaim God's devinity?

I'll take any miracle I can get and be grateful for it, but no, I need not any other miracles than the greatest one I could ever receive.

Originally posted by saint4God
If it happens and did happen, then why do we still have deaf people, blind people, people who can't walk, and so on..

We had the opportunity to be free of all these things, but humanity as a whole had rejected it. And, many of us are still rejecting it.

Originally posted by saint4God
If what you're demonstrating is true, then God chooses to cure 'some' people, yet let other people just 'get on with it'. Why then cure some people, but not all of them.

Ooh! Good question, I like it as it is a hard one. The issue here I think is we want to be the ones to say what is fair and what is not. We want to be that judge, we want to be God. That's a problem and is what got us into the mess of death and disease in the first place. If one can accept that God is perfect in his fairness and justice then they are able to accept that God has a purpose and reason for all things. We can ask for things so long as they are according to His will and they will be given.

"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven. " - Matthew 6:9-11

It's approaching God by saying that we understand He has a purpose for the things that happen and ask that any greatness would come as glorification to His name. Seans reaction to this miracle was to do exactly that. God knows our heart and what we will do with what He gives.

Originally posted by saint4God
That's like a doctor coming in a room and saying to two people who need the same operation otherwise they'll die.. ''right, we can only operate on one of you, that one will live, and the other will die..

It's called triage and is practices in just about every hospital.

Originally posted by saint4God
so who's heads and who's tails''..

Only if it's a village witchdoctor who believes in luck. Doctors have been educated on who to perform what and when to the best of their ability to save as many as possible.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
You said you've lost relatives to cancer, and so have I. So surely that demonstrates, if anything, that God's obviously not working hard enough to cure it..

As you said, it would not be difficult for Him to do so.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Or maybe we're just not praying hard enough.. EVERYONE DOWN ON YOUR KNEES NOW!

I don't think it's a matter of praying "hard". I think we do need to be sincere and trust that no matter the outcome that it is according to what is best. Surely I suffer by a loved one of mine dying, but that's pretty selfish of me if it relieves the sufferer of pain or gets them to heaven faster.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
That's a good question...to ask Him. I wouldn't be surprise though if He gives the same answer He has already given which is "My thoughts are not your thoughts, My ways are not your ways." I take it to mean there's a bigger plan that we cannot see.

There's a bigger plan, and part of the plan is to let some people suffer in life?

He could cure everything with say a click of his fingers, which would announce he's here and in our presence. He 'chooses' not to cure everything, and not to announce to all that he's here.

Originally posted by saint4God
If you had a child with that attitude, would you grant their requests?

Which request?

Originally posted by saint4God
It is for him. As previously quoted, things great and small.

Yeah to God everything is equal, because there's no boundaries. However, to us, something like curing cancer is bigger than healing a swollen ankle. To God it's no different, as it takes no more effort to one, than the other.

Originally posted by saint4God
It wasn't MY e-mail, I merely quoted it.

But you chose to quote it.

I assume you chose to believe it.

You then chose to post it here as 'proof'.

You're not 'merely' quoting it. You're providing it to us as evidence/proof of a miracle, hence you are 'stretching it a bit'.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
If it happens and did happen, then why do we still have deaf people, blind people, people who can't walk, and so on..

Originally posted by saint4God
We had the opportunity to be free of all these things, but humanity as a whole had rejected it. And, many of us are still rejecting it.

The old ''It's your fault if it doesn't work'' arguement.

They use the same technique if they're unable to heal you at a faith healing rally. It's not God's fault, or the faith healer's fault.. It's 'your' fault. Just like it's our fault that we aren't free of all these things, because 'humanity' (Adam & Eve) rejected it.

Originally posted by saint4God
Ooh! Good question, I like it as it is a hard one. The issue here I think is we want to be the ones to say what is fair and what is not. We want to be that judge, we want to be God. That's a problem and is what got us into the mess of death and disease in the first place. If one can accept that God is perfect in his fairness and justice then they are able to accept that God has a purpose and reason for all things. We can ask for things so long as they are according to His will and they will be given.

Death and disease is a fact of life, I can live with it.

However, according to you we have this devine being that watches over us, that apparently has the power to rid disease, as you've provided 'proof' of this, yet God chooses not to rid all disease, but merely prefers to fix a swollen ankle here n there.

Originally posted by saint4God
"This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven. " - Matthew 6:9-11

Believe it or not, I used to know that whole prayer off-by-heart.

Originally posted by saint4God
It's called triage and is practices in just about every hospital.

Yeah, but the fix the one who would have the best chance of survival.

God seems to be randomising it. As he fixes a person with a swollen ankle, yet choose to let children die of starvation, to suffer with disability, and to die from diseases that in your eyes 'could' be fixed by God, yet he chooses not to fix them.

Originally posted by saint4God
I don't think it's a matter of praying "hard". I think we do need to be sincere and trust that no matter the outcome that it is according to what is best. Surely I suffer by a loved one of mine dying, but that's pretty selfish of me if it relieves the sufferer of pain or gets them to heaven faster.

That's 'selfish' for you to want your relative to be relieved of pain?

That's the opposite of selfish.

And it wouldn't just be your relative, it'd be everyone.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by shaunybaby]

Originally posted by shaunybaby
There's a bigger plan, and part of the plan is to let some people suffer in life?

Yeah. Best described here:

"Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed." - 1 Peter 4:12-13

Easier said than done I'm sure, but something to keep in mind because...

"Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything...Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. " James 1:2-4, 12

Originally posted by shaunybaby
He could cure everything with say a click of his fingers, which would announce he's here and in our presence. He 'chooses' not to cure everything, and not to announce to all that he's here.

I agree it is the choice He makes in both instances. Granted, He did these things before yet humanity still rejected it. So, there is a new appeal and a new covenant that requires more on our part (from a relationship standpoint) to step up to the plate.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Which request?

Asking God to cure cancer, right?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Yeah to God everything is equal, because there's no boundaries. However, to us, something like curing cancer is bigger than healing a swollen ankle. To God it's no different, as it takes no more effort to one, than the other.

Perhaps, I don't know.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
But you chose to quote it.

Ya.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
I assume you chose to believe it.

Ya.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
You then chose to post it here as 'proof'. You're not 'merely' quoting it. You're providing it to us as evidence/proof of a miracle, hence you are 'stretching it a bit'.

I'm not giving a whole puzzle, only pieces. It would be impossible for me to prove it to you, rather, my role is to help you (or anyone who is sincerely interested) in obtaining your own proof. First I need to show it can be done/does exist. Secondly is to explain how it can be done for you.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
The old ''It's your fault if it doesn't work'' arguement.

That's not what I've said. Rather we have to respect His will ultimately for it to be so. He's the God, He's in control, He knows what's best.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
They use the same technique if they're unable to heal you at a faith healing rally. It's not God's fault, or the faith healer's fault.. It's 'your' fault.

I'm glad I was not present at these rallies. Who knows, maybe I should be the salt there.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Just like it's our fault that we aren't free of all these things, because 'humanity' (Adam & Eve) rejected it.

I'm not asking for people to place blame upon someone else, nor have a pity party for one's self. Rather, understand our nature, our tendencies, our motivations and where our desires are rooted. If we understand that in ourselves, we should see you and I would make the same decisions Adam and/or Eve did. I think it's important to be honest with ourselves instead of standing in self-righteous indignation.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Death and disease is a fact of life, I can live with it.

And yet it is your complaint. Why?

Originally posted by shaunybaby
However, according to you we have this devine being that watches over us, that apparently has the power to rid disease, as you've provided 'proof' of this, yet God chooses not to rid all disease, but merely prefers to fix a swollen ankle here n there.

He fulfills the petitions He agrees would be of great benefit.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Believe it or not, I used to know that whole prayer off-by-heart.

Then you knew it better than I. I still have to look it up. I think what is key in that passage is he states he's telling his disciples how to pray, not what to pray. That's very comforting that we can use our own words and say what's in our own hearts.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
Yeah, but the fix the one who would have the best chance of survival.

Right, the person does the best they can with it which I agree is the right thing to do.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
God seems to be randomising it.

It may seem to be the case from our perspective, but certainly not His.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
As he fixes a person with a swollen ankle, yet choose to let children die of starvation, to suffer with disability, and to die from diseases that in your eyes 'could' be fixed by God, yet he chooses not to fix them.

Again, is He delivering them from suffering to get them to heaven sooner? Or, is He letting some suffering occur so that they will come to great spiritual strength? These are things we cannot see.

Originally posted by saint4God
That's 'selfish' for you to want your relative to be relieved of pain?

Not at all. I was saying/meaning it's selfish to ask for someone to live when they're going to suffer more or greater later on. And, selfish to want them to live when they could be in heaven.

Originally posted by saint4God
That's the opposite of selfish.

And it wouldn't just be your relative, it'd be everyone.

I understand what your saying and agree we should pray for relief from pain. But, to wish them here when they could be in heaven isn't really considering what may be best. I think we need to be clear on what the motivation is for requesting a miracle. If it is for gaining something for oneself, then it seems there is a problem with the request already.

Enjoying the excellent questions and considerations, I think you've brought up some very interesting and important points.

[edit on 13-10-2006 by saint4God]

saint, sorry I haven't answered your last post, I have been deluged with disasters and one of the things that has lifted me through this time is chuckling away at the irony. I kid you not, this is since my last post (and yes, I've left stuff out)...

Oct 1. Sisters dog gets hit by car. Dead.
Oct 1. House floods due to storm and heavy rain and brings raw sewage into the house.
Oct 2. Had it cleaned (expensive) but 2 weeks to dry, place looks like its been shelled.
Oct 4. The result of a string of minor incidents was a broken bone in the foot.
Oct 6. Getting a handle on this, finally sit at the PC, it crashes and dies. Unrecoverable.
Oct 7. Bought new pc. printer decides to leak black ink all over the floor. Only discover it because the dogs ran it all over the house. Buy new printer and carpets (that weren't affected by the flood).
Oct 7. Friend visits upset because a mutual friend dies, cancer, Age 34.
Oct 8. Relative (distant). Major artery ruptured, bleeds to death. Dies, Age 27.
Oct 10. House floods for a second time. Everything we had done to clean and repair the previous flood has now been undone. Clearly theres a problem under the house. Aside from the bad news, my family needs to live somewhere, the problems need solving, funerals need attending, darn, forgot about work. I still need to pay the bills. I forgot, lightning hits the house, damages tiles, big hole. Turn on the news and the whole areas been hit, my problems start to pale with other stories and anger turns to grateful.
Oct 11. Loss adjuster visits and tells me the problem is under the floor and therefore is neither the building nor the structure so im not insured. They'll fix the roof but that's it. WTF! Now I'm in to legal issues and a circular beauracratic blame culture. In the meantime, I have to foot bills myself or leave things until I can get it claimed.
Oct 11. 3rd friend totally unrelated to other two comes in upset. His friend has had a sudden heart attack, age 35. He's alive but hanging on.
Oct 12. So far so good for today except everyones stressed out and tired. We'll see what happens over the next few days, hopefully we are over the worst of it. I would turn to God but I'm afraid he'll do something REALLY bad, and I fancy giving that a miss for a while. I just hope it doesn't rain for a few weeks while I sort the crap out but england in october is not the driest place to be. ho hum.

I wrote this out yesterday but I usually delete posts before I post them, writing them just helps me get things out but I've been so hacked off with whoever's in charge. Anyway, If you take each event individually, they are all things that can, and do happen. When they come wrapped up in a ribbon like this, we see probabilities that you would use to define a miracle and thus proof of God. If this "series of unfortunate events" are proof of God, how is this proof of a good God?

You freely admit that you don't have the answers so how can you be sure you have the right path?