Kroger Follows Walmart

a reply to: TheRedneck

If this is a repeat of what I posted above then just disregard. For some reason my last paragraphs aren't show for me on my above post.

Yes ,freedom has a price but that doesn't mean I have to get arrested every year to exercise my 5th and 6th. Or march on my Capitol, start a newspaper or go to church to exercise my 1st. No one should have to exercise their 2nd if they don't want to. That's my point. No need to "respect" a toy under the 2nd Amendment. I have been known to point a toy gun at someone and pull the trigger, whereas, since I was a small child I was taught and never would point a real gun at anyone even if I was confident it was unloaded. 

To use your own paragraph with a few tweeks: 
Do you not understand that a cop who has been told by their dispatcher that they are responding to an armed potential shooter might be able to mistake a jar for a weapon? Really? Just because you know it is a jar does not mean the cop who sees you knows it is a jar. Your thoughts do not immediately transmit to everyone else around you. 

As you have pointed out Cops don't know if what 911 has told them is true until they get there. You as a law abiding Jar Holder don't get the luxury of explaining it is a Jar when some hopped up Cop comes in from behind you, after being told you match the description or are in the same aisle as someone who has been identified by someone on 911 of doing something dangerous or illegal.

And in most cases, and as you have said and I agree needs to be legally addressed, that caller will never get into legal trouble because he can claim he was scared and thought you were doing something suspicious. Oops my bad it was just a jar. All that see-something-say-something stuff. Imagine you were actually concealed carrying while jarholding? After they cuff your dead dill and vinegar covered body and they find your concealed gun that's all it will take for the police to say you had a gun and how were they to know so they were justified.

Yes, I know all that about my weapons. Yes, most people don't but again if they don't use a weapon I don't expect them to know. I also expect our education system and yes, even our police, to educate someone on the actual law rather than continuing to enable these reactions that are snowballing into entire regions so scared of even seeing hand gestures that they are calling 911 and getting innocent people killed or charged for not doing anything but scaring some idiot.

And I 100% agree regarding the 6th Amend. Don't get me started on the problems I have with the way Prosecutors play fast and loose with the Constitution in this country. Or the idiot juries that are typically seated. Lol

Yes, I see your point on people being scared of guns causing a great deal of problems with my 2nd Amendment Rights. That was my point too.

a reply to: Identified

Yes ,freedom has a price but that doesn't mean I have to get arrested every year to exercise my 5th and 6th. Or march on my Capitol, start a newspaper or go to church to exercise my 1st.

Arrested? No, you can't be arrested for exercising rights; that's why they are rights. Crawford wasn't arrested, though, was he? Could someone else have shot him, thinking he was about to open fire? This time it was a cop, but could it not have been a concerned citizen thinking he was protecting himself?

No one should have to exercise their 2nd if they don't want to.

No, they shouldn't have to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. I agree.

No need to "respect" a toy under the 2nd Amendment.

You are misinterpreting my point. The 2nd Amendment does not cover toys. The Crawford case has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment. It has to do with the reality that there are toys which appear so like to a real gun, another reasonable person could interpret one's actions with it as being the actions of a potential shooter.

I have been known to point a toy gun at someone and pull the trigger, whereas, since I was a small child I was taught and never would point a real gun at anyone even if I was confident it was unloaded.

I beg of you, if you are ever in my presence, do not do that unless you are certain I know exactly what you are doing. There is a high probability you will be shot. There is an almost certainty you will at least be attacked.

That is not a threat. It is a warning, just like I would warn a child not to stick their hand on a hot stove eye. There is an almost certainty they will get burned. I won't burn them; the stove will. I won't intend to attack or shoot someone pulling a gun on someone in my presence, but I will also not stand by and watch someone innocent being shot without taking action.

That is likely the most dangerous thing you could ever do, and it shows you do not know how to handle a weapon. Please, please stop, for your own safety.

Do you not understand that a cop who has been told by their dispatcher that they are responding to an armed potential shooter might be able to mistake a jar for a weapon? Really? Just because you know it is a jar does not mean the cop who sees you knows it is a jar. Your thoughts do not immediately transmit to everyone else around you.

If it's a jar, you would have a reasonable argument.

TheRedneck

a reply to: TheRedneck

I think you misunderstood. I wasn't saying you get arrested for exercising your rights. I was saying people hold Rights they may not regularly exercise and shouldn't have to. Such as your 5th and 6th which aren't Rights most people ever have to use.

Oh dear, I hope I don't trigger you further. I guess you never played with cap guns as child or played cops and robbers or had squirt gun fights. No kids I guess, or are you one of those parents who don't allow squirt guns or kids holding sticks in the shape of a gun and saying "bang". I don't run around shooting complete strangers with a toy gun. I think you are seriously overreacting. And I doubt you'd fair very well legally if you shot a kid playing cops and robbers in their yard because they pointed it at another kid and you happened to be taking your trash out and saw them.

a reply to: Identified

Ah! We're over-running each other. I'm adding my thoughts to the new post in a new post of mine, hopefully so we can both keep up.

As you have pointed out Cops don't know if what 911 has told them is true until they get there. You as a law abiding Jar Holder don't get the luxury of explaining it is a Jar when some hopped up Cop comes in from behind you, after being told you match the description or are in the same aisle as someone who has been identified by someone on 911 of doing something dangerous or illegal.

I do expect the cops to use reasonable caution in using deadly force, just as I expect anyone to do so. There is, as I pointed out, a huge difference between seeing someone with a jar and seeing someone with a toy gun that looks like it is real. Now, I know your argument is that the police did not wait sufficient time to make the determination, but mine is that things happen fast during the incident. Time really does slow down. What seems to be 10 minutes to one involved can literally be 2 seconds. The brain speeds up tremendously.

Again, I've been there. I've experienced it. Those two cops were walking up to me in extreme slow motion. That time I had to pull my gun, it seemed like it took an eternity to get it from under my car seat to his head. One cannot judge things after the fact based on time observed reviewing the action.

Yes, I know all that about my weapons. Yes, most people don't but again if they don't use a weapon I don't expect them to know.

Actually, I was speaking of gun-owners who cannot answer the most basic questions about their gun. Non-gun-owners obviously wouldn't know much about a gun they do not own.

I also expect our education system and yes, even our police, to educate someone on the actual law rather than continuing to enable these reactions that are snowballing into entire regions so scared of even seeing hand gestures that they are calling 911 and getting innocent people killed or charged for not doing anything but scaring some idiot.

In JROTC in high school, we would go to the local armory once a week for target practice as part of the class. I have fired an M-16 numerous times; they were locked on semi-auto for safety, but otherwise were the real thing. I fell in love with the .223 caliber from that experience. I have seen an M-60 being fired, on full auto, by our instructor. Gun safety was an integral part of that education.

As well, and this was my real point about education, my father taught me gun safety from the time I can remember. He had three rules that were never to be broken under any circumstances:

• Always treat every gun as though it was loaded.
  
• Never point a gun at anything you are not ready and willing to kill.
  
• Only kill for food or self-protection.

Three simple little rules. Three. The first two, if followed, would prevent every accidental shooting that has ever happened. The last, again if followed, would prevent every gun crime ever committed. Other kids' fathers did the same. Pointing a gun, even a toy gun, at someone was an absolute taboo and would get a kid in trouble for sometimes years. It simply wasn't done outside of a controlled area where everyone knew the guns were toys and there were absolutely no real guns anywhere around.

I, like most kids, had a Daisy BB gun. I was to treat it like any other gun, and if I did not, I would not be allowed to hunt or even touch a gun, toy or not, for quite some time. I made the mistake of pointing it at a pet one day playing around. Dad saw it and asked if I was ready to kill the pet. I said no, but the BB gun wasn't powerful enough to kill it. He told me it didn't matter, and I lost all gun rights for a year... my BB gun was put away, all my toy guns were confiscated, and I wasn't allowed to go hunting. If we had shooter games back then, I suspect that would have been gone too. I never casually pointed any gun of any kind, toy or not, at another being after that.

That is gun safety training, and it is missing from society.

And I 100% agree regarding the 6th Amend.

I thought you might.

I will also remind you that a jury is a pool of 12 people not smart enough to get out of jury duty.

I see your point on people being scared of guns causing a great deal of problems with my 2nd Amendment Rights. That was my point too.

Good. As I said, I suspect we agree on much on this issue.

You scare me with the toy gun pointing, though. Please, again, please stop.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Identified

This is strictly caving to the pressure of left politics and I won't be shopping at Kroger anymore.

I don't shop at HEB for a similiar reason, though unfortunately my roommate does.

Fewer and fewer places are respecting our gun rights to carry open or concealed and are turning their backs because of the whole protest push the left is making.

I hope tha things eventually swing the other direction in the near future.

a reply to: Identified

Oh dear, I hope I don't trigger you further. I guess you never played with cap guns as child or played cops and robbers or had squirt gun fights. No kids I guess, or are you one of those parents who don't allow squirt guns or kids holding sticks in the shape of a gun and saying "bang". I don't run around shooting complete strangers with a toy gun. I think you are seriously overreacting. And I doubt you'd fair very well legally if you shot a kid playing cops and robbers in their yard because they pointed it at another kid and you happened to be taking your trash out and saw them.

Please don't spoil a good conversation with hyperbole.

Of course I had squirt gun fights when I was a kid. So did my kids, but always under controlled conditions. No, I wouldn't shoot a kid just playing with friends. But Crawford wasn't a kid, was he? He was in public, in an uncontrolled situation. I explained above how things were when we were young, but adults do not go around pulling guns on each other for fun... toy or no.

OK, except paintball... but recall that on a paintball course, you are in a controlled situation and everyone knows what is going on. That's the key point you are missing... there is a big difference between doing something for fun in a controlled area with willing participants and doing the exact same thing in public where not everyone realizes what you are doing.

if one is casual about playing such games and does not understand that difference, it becomes very easy for one to try it in public... with dire consequences.

TheRedneck

a reply to: Ahabstar

Yes, it would.

They want to discourage open carry in their stores? Fine. They can, it's their store(s).

Not sure how this will keep people from walking in and shooting people, should they be nuts... But, what ever.

I'm free to take my business elsewhere, or keep it to the absolute minimum. At 3 AM, after work, I'm somewhat limited in my shopping choices...

I have other choices should I wish to carry.

a reply to: TheRedneck

I'm going to quickly answer one point before I have to go. A BB gun, while a toy that I also had as a child and still own, I never once pointed it at anyone or any animal because it actually shot BBs which can "put your eye out". When I said I pointed with toy guns I meant Cowboy Revolvers cap guns, squirt guns and even - gasp- laser guns! Those don't shoot anything and kids and parents weren't scared of them back when I was a kid. It was called having an imagination.

Just within the last month I had a kid shoot at me in a store with a toy soldier he was playing with. I just grabbed my chest and told him "you got me." He giggled and I walked on.

It's getting ridiculous in this country that kids have to be scared of playing.

a reply to: TheRedneck

True I was being hyperbolic. But I would suggest in today's world with Red Flag idiots you not broadcast your thoughts on kids playing with guns.

No, Crawford wasn't a kid. Crawford also never once pointed it at anyone. He was swinging it with one arm at some points, much like you would with an umbrella if you are absentmindedly playing with it. It was a toy however, one that he picked up in the same store he was still in.

Also I would point out that Walmart was not empty that evening and considering multiple people observed him with the item and didn't go running from the department or the store it would stand to reason the "average" person didn't actually think it was a threat. Granted it only takes one to ruin it for everyone.

a reply to: seagull

Well the best choice is growing a garden, but that is neither here nor there. And there is denying service for reasonable reasons, but there is also hopping on the bandwagon.

Since the Crawford story is played out, let’s go with a new one from, yep Dayton, Ohio. Police are still investigating and discussing findings with prosecutors but the facts in so far are that a man shot and killed two teens that were in his detached garage. There were three but one was not killed. It was not a Breaking and Entering as the garage was unlocked but the teens were doing drugs so there is a trespassing with criminal intent. Teens lived in the neighborhood and had been in his garage before. Just last night without all the fact the Mayor of Dayton, Nan Whaley is calling it murder and wants to see the homeowner convicted. Oh, and Nan Whaley did run for Governor but dropped early in the primaries do to lack of name recognition holding her down in the polls. She seems to be working on that now.

So court of public opinion and elected officials steering the narrative before the man has been charged and still has never been taken into custody because there doesn’t seem to be enough evidence yet to prove that it was not self-defense which is the current law and burden of proof falls on the prosecution to prove a no self-defense situation. Whaley is really mad about that law because innocent until proven there was no need to kill in self-defense should be afforded to victims, only criminals I guess.

a reply to: Ahabstar

That incident would seem to confirm that, if one is forced to shoot, make sure there's only one story. Yours.

Without knowing anymore than what you've just written, the home owner was, to use an analogy appropriate to the topic, way off target, and shouldn't have shot, however, we don't know all the particulars. ...and the mayor, how did she get elected?

a reply to: seagull

I’ll give you three guesses which letter follows her name in parentheses. Unrelated, she also divulged few years ago a location of US drone flight tests causing them to be relocated to other undisclosed airspace at considerable cost and inconvenience to the base conducting them. Needless to say, I see way less “satellites” passing overhead from horizon to horizon than I used to at night.

a reply to: Ahabstar

🤔

Don't really need three...does anyone?

Sounds like a real peach.

a reply to: Ahabstar

I don't know all the specifics of the garage shooting, but It being a detached garage is going to probably be a problem for him; but the Mayor, while most likely the boss of the city police, should keep his mouth shut. This is for the justice system to figure out if a crime was committed.

Personally I think if the police would have had the right to shoot someone in that situation then the home owner shouldn't be held to a higher standard.

But we will have to see what more info comes out.

a reply to: Identified

Nan Whaley is a woman. The survivor fled the scene only to return and be arrested. Still in jail, I think, for criminal trespassing. Father of the victim has said they always was in the garage smoking pot. The exact relationship between the 19 year old survivor and the 17 year old victims has not been said. Which seem to indicate more towards drug dealer than friend, but that is not known at this time. But is a strange statement to comment that the relationship is unknown.

I’ll wait and see. The detached garage complicates things but being inside a car in the garage and scrambling has enough reasonable doubt that they could have been scrambling to attack versus scrambling to escape. Words or threats exchanged before firing can have an impact as well. As could a history of vandalism, theft, order to not return, etc.

Oh and add CVS and Walgreens to the list for those keeping score at home.

a reply to: Ahabstar

I was just going to post this.

It's a GD epidemic.

a reply to: Identified

Pretty soon the only thing left will be Rural King. I’m okay with that unless Amazon is gonna get uppity while in the recliner now.

a reply to: Ahabstar

LOL

Wonder what Walmart says about doing one of those parking lot Pickup services with a gunrack?

originally posted by: MisterSpock
Is there a smaller chain competitor(maybe in the south).

Would be funny if a store offered a discount to anyone legally carrying openly in an open carry state. That would be kind of funny.

In the south, the big alternative is Publix but they don't have fuel points and gas pumps.