Brexit, Today is the Vote!

a reply to: eletheia

As far as I can tell it might be because since the Leave vote lots of youngsters have turned 18 and so should be given the right to vote on their future or some such desperate nonsense.

Ok, just for a conspiracy angle (ATS) how about this being a sneaky plot to topple the European Commission? No one in Europe wants the EC but as they founded the EU they wrote themselves into the statute book. The vast majority of MEP's rail against the EC (see most European Parliament debates!).

The EC have constantly said no renegotiation but as soon as Parliament kick the deal to touch, individual states within Europe (such as Germany) immediately break ranks with the EC position, further eroding the EC grip on Europe.

originally posted by: eletheia

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Might be better if you replied to things I actually said rather than things you made up.

Same question again. Do you think we should leave the EU if the majority want to stay?

Have you been asleep? There WAS a referendum and the result was LEAVE

so where do you get "The majority want to stay" from?


It amuses me that people are putting it about that another referendum would

have the result 'stay' I have come across more people who, having seen the

behaviour of the EU would leave whereas they voted stay than the other way

around.

Not the question. The referendum was almost 3 years ago. If now, in 2019 the majority wish to stay do you think we should still leave?

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: ScepticScot

The "Keep voting until you get the result you want and then stop voting" goal posts - them's the ones.

Can you link to where I said that.

Hint - you can't because I didn't.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

Already answered,

Err, no you haven't.

Was the first referendum undemocratic?
Was it illegal?
Was it misleading?

Straight forward questions that require simple Yes/No answers.

New voters don't invalidate elections, but we do keep having elections....

Not without the result of the first election being implemented and the party with most seats forms a government.
Under certain circumstances the government can call a snap election or a parliamentary vote of no confidence can result in an early election.

Otherwise governments have a fixed 5 year term after which a General Election is called.

Nothing about new voters or voters changing their minds.

The key point is that the result of ALL ballots are enacted before any new election.....why should this referendum be any different?
Please explain.


If the majority of people want to stay in the EU do you think we should still leave?

At no point have I raise anything to do with the legitimacy of the first referendum as it's irrelevant to the point.

Not sure how to rephrase the question.

Do you think we should still leave even if the majority wanted to stay? By which I mean would it be the legitimate decision regardless of your personal view on the EU.

originally posted by: Teikiatsu

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Because it is fast approaching 3 years ago and we don't need to be bound by that decision.

What is so special about 3 years?

Not a damn thing other than it was 3 years ago.

a reply to: ScepticScot

I did not say you did say that - I was making a point. Because you said this:

Because it is fast approaching 3 years ago and we don't need to be bound by that decision. There are more new voters alone than the margin between leave/remain redirected get onti another Demographic changes or people just plain being allowed to.change their mind. If the majority of people oppose leaving do you really think we should still leave based on a vote from 3 years back?

Moving goal posts, or what?

brexit and the Un-united Kingdom to me is this

like voting to shoot ourselves in the foot , Scotland voted against it , but because we are in a union with a greater population we have to go along with what the majority want even if its detrimental to the whole !

and not representative of a whole country of people
how is that democracy , Scotland is nothing more than a #ing puppet state voting alongside another country that out weighs its voting power by sheer volume of electorate.

So even if Scotland;s electorate is united in their political ideology it matters not because as long as a higher majority are against the total volume of electorate in Scotland , Scotland are effectively MUTE in any political matter which affects the whole of the UK how is that considered democracy and representation when we will always be outvoted no matter what ?


Imagine the United kingdom is a paranoid schizophrenic that suffers body dysmorphia , UK has 4 personalities
3 of those personalities want to cut of the left arm because it sucks , the other personality doesnt want rid of that arm
as that arm is the wanking arm !

ocht just burn it aww doon!

originally posted by: midicon
If we have a second referendum on EU membership then the people of Scotland will demand the same opportunity regards Scottish independence.

Actually we're more likely to have another if we leave the EU, not just because the UK got another one.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: ScepticScot

I did not say you did say that - I was making a point. Because you said this:

Because it is fast approaching 3 years ago and we don't need to be bound by that decision. There are more new voters alone than the margin between leave/remain redirected get onti another Demographic changes or people just plain being allowed to.change their mind. If the majority of people oppose leaving do you really think we should still leave based on a vote from 3 years back?

Moving goal posts, or what?

No that is not moving goal posts.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Do you really think that the country should be run by opinion polls? Because that's what it sounds like.

a reply to: ScepticScot

No that is not moving goal posts.

Oh yes it is! etc.

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: ScepticScot

Do you really think that the country should be run by opinion polls? Because that's what it sounds like.

Ignoring that referendums are just really really big opinion polls no I don't.

If I did I wouldn't be arguing for a second referendum would I?

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: ScepticScot

No that is not moving goal posts.

Oh yes it is! etc.

I am not sure if you are confused by what I said or confused by the concept of moving the goal posts?

Could you explain why you think I have?

a reply to: ScepticScot

At no point have I raise anything to do with the legitimacy of the first referendum as it's irrelevant to the point.

So it wasn't undemocratic.
It wasn't illegal.
It wasn't misleading.

So why shouldn't it be implemented?

Why would another referendum be required?

I've never voted for the Tories but I know many people who did at the last election but now regret doing so......does that justify another election?

If not why is an election different to a referendum?
Aren't both democratic ballots held in accordance with UK law and legislation?

originally posted by: Freeborn

We often hear it said by remainers that we weren't in possession of all the facts....I was, were you?
I also knew the implications of Brexit.
I knew it could possibly mean a few more years of hardship, I'm not a complete #ing idiot!

Sheer bloody arrogance.

YESSSSS!!!

Another thing that irritates me is that these same people keep saying "we were

lied to" by the sum of money on the side of the bus.

I never heard that it was ALL for the NHS ...... what I heard that it was the sum

we gave the EU and no longer doing so would release the money for what the UK

wanted and needed including the NHS not specifically for!!

a reply to: ScepticScot

Because you want to ignore the vote to leave and have another one, of course.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

At no point have I raise anything to do with the legitimacy of the first referendum as it's irrelevant to the point.

So it wasn't undemocratic.
It wasn't illegal.
It wasn't misleading.

So why shouldn't it be implemented?

Why would another referendum be required?

I've never voted for the Tories but I know many people who did at the last election but now regret doing so......does that justify another election?

If not why is an election different to a referendum?
Aren't both democratic ballots held in accordance with UK law and legislation?

Because the argument for having one isn't based on the legitimacy or otherwise of the first.

It also isn't based on my own own opinion on leaving the EU.

Why the reluctance to answer my question on if we should still leave if the majority now wished to stay?

One MP just said brexit is above party politics and we have dropped the ball , and made no attempt to fix this
and wasted 2 years fighting over blame for bad policies

and just shown the rest of the world that our democracy is a sham

originally posted by: oldcarpy
a reply to: ScepticScot

Because you want to ignore the vote to leave and have another one, of course.

Not ignoring vote to leave. Think we should have another one to see if that is still what the majority want.

Do you think we should still leave even if the majority now want to stay?

Also that isn't an example of moving the goal posts.