Trump says the 'alt-left' bears some responsibility for violence in Charlottesville

originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: Gryphon66

You always get things backwords.

Coming from you, I take that as a complement of the highest order.

I hope I'm always 180 degrees opposed to whatever direction you're taking.

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: xuenchen

Most people already know that Nazis are bad.

Yes that is true.

But many people seem to think the violent people on groups like antifa are good.

Look all over this thread and others of people celebrating them.

All the more reason for Trump to call out violence from all sides.

I don't think it's quite fair to say that anyone here is claiming that ANTIFA is "good" ... I haven't seen anyone "celebrating them."

Trump did exactly what David Duke told him to do. He equivocated those that instigated a violent rally and those that reacted with violence to that instigation.

Violence is always wrong, but there is something to the ages-old complaint of "who started it."

White Supremacists, White Nationalists and Nazis held a rally declaring that they are now all working together, that they feel that Donald Trump supports their hatred and lies ... and that is the origin of the whole matter.

Now, when two kids fight, both get in trouble ... but it does make a difference who throws the first punch, doesn't it?

a reply to: Xcalibur254

Thanks
I think the CPD and the city and state all hold responsibility here.(the individuals committing crimes should be held accountable as well)

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
Except Americans who are in control, and NASA - they love(d) the Nazis - still do. America landed on the moon thanks to Nazis, America got the missile tech thanks to Nazis, American politicians and elite bloodlines and operation paperclip verifies that not all Nazis are bad.

You need to come to terms with history, not deny it.

Unless you are being facetious, that statement is profoundly stupid. Anybody who identifies with, or is an apologist for, the Nazis is evil or intellectually impaired. Punkt.

originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: xuenchen

Most people already know that Nazis are bad.

Yes that is true.

But many people seem to think the violent people on groups like antifa are good.

Look all over this thread and others of people celebrating them.

All the more reason for Trump to call out violence from all sides.

I don't think it's quite fair to say that anyone here is claiming that ANTIFA is "good" ... I haven't seen anyone "celebrating them."

Trump did exactly what David Duke told him to do. He equivocated those that instigated a violent rally and those that reacted with violence to that instigation.

Violence is always wrong, but there is something to the ages-old complaint of "who started it."

White Supremacists, White Nationalists and Nazis held a rally declaring that they are now all working together, that they feel that Donald Trump supports their hatred and lies ... and that is the origin of the whole matter.

Now, when two kids fight, both get in trouble ... but it does make a difference who throws the first punch, doesn't it?

Oh I disagree strongly.

I have seen many posters getting many stars discussing how these people should be cheered and are heroes, and how anyone fighting nazis is worth celebrating.

I won't post for T and C, but just look around you will see it.

As far as the origin, I don't think its that simple.

I would by that if we didn't see antifa several times in the past show up and start violence against non nazis claiming they were nazis.

So it seems to me both sides were geared up by the other to show up and start violence.

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: windword

Maybe. But they have the right to assemble (they had a permit) and speak freely

And they have no right not to be challenged, criticized and rejected in a public forum.

You are correct.

However, showing up with pepper spray, broken bottles, and bats to "challenge" them goes well beyond anyone's legal right.

The propaganda and manipulation is palpable here. How on earth would a city allow permitting of neonazi's/KKK and not have police on standby? Its almost like it was set up to beat up on the racists to begin with. WHich sucks, because defending a racist piece of craps right to assemble and free speech is something none of us should be put in a position of having to do. And worse, media has puts all its might behind condemning the hate group while giving a free pass to the terrorists who showed up to smear crap on the walls.

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: Xcalibur254

Thanks
I think the CPD and the city and state all hold responsibility here.(the individuals committing crimes should be held accountable as well)

The police are responsible for violent actions against a bunch of students?

For a rally called to glorify hatred and implicit violence?

Are the police also responsible for the bank robbery because they didn't stop it?

Personal responsibility my ass.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

So "the terrorists" in your version don't have the right to assemble and speak?

It's really that clear cut? Innocent Nazis and White Supremacists just protesting a statue?

Come ON Texan.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: windword

Maybe. But they have the right to assemble (they had a permit) and speak freely

And they have no right not to be challenged, criticized and rejected in a public forum.

You are correct.

However, showing up with pepper spray, broken bottles, and bats to "challenge" them goes well beyond anyone's legal right.

The propaganda and manipulation is palpable here. How on earth would a city allow permitting of neonazi's/KKK and not have police on standby? Its almost like it was set up to beat up on the racists to begin with. WHich sucks, because defending a racist piece of craps right to assemble and free speech is something none of us should be put in a position of having to do. And worse, media has puts all its might behind condemning the hate group while giving a free pass to the terrorists who showed up to smear crap on the walls.

That's right. There are neo-nazi and KKK have rallies all the time. This one was not defended from violent counter protests by police, essentially denying their rights.

a reply to: Grambler

Hmmm ... so, are you taking the comments that standing up against Nazi ideology is equivalent to praising ANTIFA?

ANTIFA is not a consolidated group or front or organization ... it's not homogeneous.

It's even more fragmented than the Nazi/White Supremacists factions ... who, by the way, were in Charlottesville to UNITE under the RIght-wing banner.

Anyone can say "I'm ANTIFA" (or BLM for that matter).

And, again, both loosely defined "groups" (ANTIFA and BLM) were formed in reaction to the actions of others, yes or no?

Followup: By pointing such things out, am I "defending" ANTIFA as well?

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: shooterbrody


So? Hitler's Fascist arms had to actually reach out and pinch the USA before Americans got off their sofas and tractors, entered the European war theater with might and moral conviction, to end Hitler's NAZI regime and thwart his fascist allies Japan, Mussolini, etc., at great individual and personal sacrifice.

What is your point? Are NAZIs enemies of the American people, or not?

I am done with your incorrect and off topic emo response to nazis and the usa.
You are wrong.
Hitler was apparently much more tolerable than a Japanese sneak attack on pearl harbor. No amount of twisting by you will change that historical fact.

The idiot nazi protesters in va are nothing like the nazis they worship from history. They are simply a joke. You can puff them up all you like, it does not change the fact that they are actually insignificant. They do not exist in any numbers capable of making any meaningful political impact other than the microphone the msm has now decided to give them.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

So "the terrorists" in your version don't have the right to assemble and speak?

It's really that clear cut? Innocent Nazis and White Supremacists just protesting a statue?

Come ON Texan.

I don't want to speak for texan, but I think you know thats not what he is saying.

The nazis had the right to assemble, people had the right to protest them, but neither side had the right to engage in violence.

And for some reason, many people are giving the protestors a pass.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

However, showing up with pepper spray, broken bottles, and bats to "challenge" them goes well beyond anyone's legal right.

Wait a minute. The "Unite the Right" group came armed with bats, pepper spray, fiery torches and semi automatic rifles!

The right-wingers were more prepared for violence. Most white supremacist and Nazi groups arrived armed like a paramilitary force — carrying shields, protective gear, rods, and yes, lots of guns, utilizing Virginia’s loose firearm laws. They used militarized defensive maneuvers, shouting commands at one another to “move forward” or “retreat,” and would form a line of shields or a phalanx — it’s like they watched 300 a few times — to gain ground or shepherd someone through projectiles. It seemed that they had practiced for this. Virginia’s governor said that the right’s weaponry was better than that of the state police. The opposition was largely winging it, preferring to establish bases in other parks with water, coffee, food, first aid, and comfort. Conflict would start much the same as it has at other alt-right rallies: two people, one from each side, screaming, goading each other into throwing the first punch.
www.buzzfeed.com...

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Grambler

Hmmm ... so, are you taking the comments that standing up against Nazi ideology is equivalent to praising ANTIFA?

ANTIFA is not a consolidated group or front or organization ... it's not homogeneous.

It's even more fragmented than the Nazi/White Supremacists factions ... who, by the way, were in Charlottesville to UNITE under the RIght-wing banner.

Anyone can say "I'm ANTIFA" (or BLM for that matter).

And, again, both loosely defined "groups" (ANTIFA and BLM) were formed in reaction to the actions of others, yes or no?

Followup: By pointing such things out, am I "defending" ANTIFA as well?

No you are not defending antifa at all.

I am literally talking about people saying that Antifa are heroes, or that anyone who attacks a nazi for any reason is justifed and great.

I am not discussing people just saying antifa had the right to be their or defend themselves from violence.

a reply to: Grambler

If I "knew" that wasn't what he is saying, I wouldn't have posed the question.

The Nazis had the right to assemble, they were given a license to do so, and the city had the right to revoke that license in the public interest. The counter-protesters also had the same rights.

Are you REALLY claiming that the White WIngers didn't do anything violent? Nothing intimidating? Nothing threatening?

Further, no one is giving the protesters a pass. No one. Why do you keep repeating that?

a reply to: Grambler

Perhaps I'm just not seeing the praise for ANTIFA.

While I do not agree, I can understand, given the international hatred and harm that Nazi ideology has caused humanity ... opposition of any kind is at least understandable, no?

And while I do say that violence for political purposes is always wrong ... violence to defend against violence is not.

But, as Ghandi supposedly said, "eye for an eye and soon the whole world is blind."

Sadly, I think most people are blind already.

originally posted by: JohnnyCanuck

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
Except Americans who are in control, and NASA - they love(d) the Nazis - still do. America landed on the moon thanks to Nazis, America got the missile tech thanks to Nazis, American politicians and elite bloodlines and operation paperclip verifies that not all Nazis are bad.

You need to come to terms with history, not deny it.

Unless you are being facetious, that statement is profoundly stupid. Anybody who identifies with, or is an apologist for, the Nazis is evil or intellectually impaired. Punkt.

Are you still reeling from being off-topiced in the other thread because I hurt your feelings with one single word?

Crimea river, Mr low-info.

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: SlapMonkey

Only one side murdered a woman here ... And only one side influenced a young man to use his vehicle for terror.

Agreed.

Only one side went there to start a war. The other side was there to stand up for equality and freedom the very things this country was built on.

Disagree. There is clear evidence from people who were there that Antifa and/or others in the counter-protesting side arrived with weapons and intent on violence as well. If you choose to ignore that reality, that's on you, but it really does negate ANY credibility in your little speech to me when you ignore the reality that BOTH sides showed up with people ready to throw down.

There's always two sides in a war.
In this one it's right against wrong.

Nah, in this one, it's wrong versus wrong--it's like North Korea fighting Nazi Germany.

Your dismissal of the culpability in this violence on the side of the counter-protestors is very telling. It's okay to be outraged over the Unite the Right folks and still call out the other side for their part in the melee. Just because one side caused the death of a young woman doesn't mean that it abolishes the culpability of the other side concerning the escalation into and acts of violence perpetrated by them.

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Grambler

If I "knew" that wasn't what he is saying, I wouldn't have posed the question.

The Nazis had the right to assemble, they were given a license to do so, and the city had the right to revoke that license in the public interest. The counter-protesters also had the same rights.

Are you REALLY claiming that the White WIngers didn't do anything violent? Nothing intimidating? Nothing threatening?

Further, no one is giving the protesters a pass. No one. Why do you keep repeating that?

I said

"The nazis had the right to assemble, people had the right to protest them, but neither side had the right to engage in violence.

And yes, people are giving the protestors a pass.

Thats why the entire media world is outraged that Trump said both sides had violence.

And there have been people on ats and elsewhere celebrating the violent protestors and calling the heroes.

You'd actually have to get them to admit fault when they are gasping for that last breath of socialist virtue.