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I have to disagree with you. Images of mutilated flesh does not prove that a fetus has a soul in the womb.
Surgery is a pretty disgusting process, does that mean that surgery is evil too?
No. I expect more than anti-abortion propaganda. I want you to show me in the scriptures where it says that God imputed a soul into a fetus while in the womb.
תְּ֝סֻכֵּ֗נִי te·suk·ke·ni: to weave together. Flesh is woven together in the womb, but the soul is not flesh. Instead, the soul is acquired by God. Notice how David is making a distinction: God acquires the soul, but the flesh, He weaves together in the womb. Read a little further.
The word for "unformed substance" is "galemi". It comes from golem, which simply means inanimate substance, but in the Hebrew culture and mythology, a golem was a soulless zombie...sort of like a statue that is animated by witchcraft, but has no mind of its own.
In Psalm 139:13-16, David is making himself very clear: 1) It is God who acquires the soul, not the biological process of conception. 2) Unlike the soul, the body (flesh) is woven together in the womb of the mother. 3) The fetus within the womb is a golem...it has no soul. It is just extremely complicated biochemical substance.
If you want to debate with me on the subject, spare me the shock and sob anti-abortion propaganda, and show me how you justify your position from the Hebrew/Greek scriptures. That is what I have done, I expect nothing less from you.
originally posted by: BlueAjah
The penalty for abortion should be eternity in hell.
originally posted by: TarzanBeta
I'm Christian and I support the preserving of babies and adults.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Ge 2:21 ¶ And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
originally posted by: Agartha
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest
If women start being penalized for having abortions it will show that pro-lifers care more about the life of the unborn than about the mother.
41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
what are the reasons why the human soul is acted at one time by good(spirits) and at another by bad: the grounds of which i suspect to be older that the bodily birth of the individual, as John(the Baptist) showed by his leaping and exulting in his mother's womb, when the voice of salutation of Mary reached the ears of Elisabeth; and as Jeremiah the prophet declares, who was known to God before he formed him in his mother's womb....
They [John and Jesus] were both alive while still in the womb. Elizabeth rejoiced as the infant leaped in her womb; Mary glorifies the Lord because Christ within inspired her. Each mother recognizes her child and each is known by her child who is alive, being not merely souls but also spirits.
- De Anima 26.4
Thus, you read the word of God, spoken to Jeremias: "Before I formed thee in the womb, I knew thee." If God forms us in the womb, He also breathes on us as He did in the beginning: "And God formed man and breathed into him the breath of life." Nor could God have known man in the womb unless he were a whole man. "And before thou camest forth from the womb, I sanctified thee." Was it, then, a dead body at that stage? Surely it was not, for "God is the God of the living and not the dead."
- De Anima 26.5
It is not permissible for us to destroy the seed by means of illicit manslaughter once it has been conceived in the womb, so long as blood remains in the person.
- Apologia, cap 25, line 42
That the unborn child is alive: How are they dead unless they were first alive? But still in the womb an infant by necessary cruelty is killed when lying twisted at the womb's mouth he prevents birth and is a matricide unless he dies. Therefore there is among the arms of physicians an instrument by which with a rotary movement the genital parts are first opened, then with a cervical instrument the interior members are slaughtered with careful judgment by a blunt barb, so that the whole criminal deed is extracted with a violent delivery. There is also the bronze needle by which the throat - cutting is carried out by a robbery in the dark; this instrument is called and embryo knife from its function of infanticide, as it is deadly for the living infant. This Hippocrates taught, and Asclepiades, and Erasistratus and Herophilus, the dissector of adults, and the milder Soranos himself, - all of them certain that a living being had been conceived and so deploring the most unhappy infancy of one of this kind who had first to be killed lest a live woman be rent apart. Of this necessity of crime, Hicesius, I believe did not doubt, as he added souls to those being born from blows of cold air, because the word itself for "soul" among the Greek relates to such a cooling. - De Anima 25.5 - 6
What reason would we have to commit murder when we say that women who induce abortions are murderers, and will have to give account of it to God? For the same person would not regard the fetus in the womb as a living thing and therefore and object of God's care [and then kill it]….But we are altogether consistent in our conduct. We obey reason and do not override it. -Legatio 35
How, then, when we do not even look on, lest we should contract guilt and pollution, can we put people to death? And when we say that those women who use drugs to bring on abortion commit murder, and will have to give an account to God s for the abortion, on what principle should we commit murder? For it does not belong to the same person to regard the very foetus in the womb as a created being, and therefore an object of God's care, and when it has passed into life, to kill it; and not to expose an infant, because those who expose them are chargeable with child-murder, and on the other hand, when it has been reared to destroy it. But we are in all things always alike and the same, submitting ourselves to reason, and not ruling over it. -A Plea for the Christians 35.4
originally posted by: GeauxHomeYoureDrunk
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest
Most women who make the hard decision to have an abortion punish themselves for the rest of their lives. They don't need the government to do it for them. Years down the road when they look lovingly upon their later children they think back to the child that was never born and what they would then be doing and they grieve. That grief follows them as long as they live. That is worse than any penalty the government could ever put upon them. Christ would show them compassion, so where is ours?
Well you can go by Tertullian and Origen if you like (who teach that both soul and spirit exist in the womb, despite the fact that Jesus taught the spirit must be born again), I will go with the Word of God.
The Greek preposition ek is the same as the Hebrew min, and it means out from, not within. That would be a different preposition. Just becaus some scholars view the subject as taboo, doesn't give them the right to change the established definions of words.
a word or phrase that modifies or qualifies an adjective, verb, or other adverb or a word group, expressing a relation of place, time, circumstance, manner, cause, degree, etc. (e.g., gently, quite, then, there ).
a word governing, and usually preceding, a noun or pronoun and expressing a relation to another word or element in the clause, as in “the man on the platform,” “she arrived after dinner,” “what did you do it for ?”
originally posted by: daryllyn
I think one of the problems is that people confuse pro life and pro birth.
If we aren't going to (or don't want to) throw money in the kitty to support these born children, if abortions are banned, or criminalized, then we have no business saying we are pro life.
We already have an overflowing system full of unadopted children, who's chances go down by 14 percent, every year passed age 1. What will happen with more unwanted children brought into this mess? The chances of being adopted drop dramatically every year. Are all these supposedly pro lifers going to step up to the plate and adopt?
11Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 12“Speak to the sons of Israel, and say to them, ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13and a man has intercourse with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act, 14if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has defiled herself, or if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has not defiled herself, 15the man shall then bring his wife to the priest, and shall bring as an offering for her one-tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall not pour oil on it, nor put frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of memorial, a reminder of iniquity.
16‘Then the priest shall bring her near and have her stand before the LORD, 17and the priest shall take holy water in an earthenware vessel; and he shall take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18‘The priest shall then have the woman stand before the LORD and let the hair of the woman’s head go loose, and place the grain offering of memorial in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy, and in the hand of the priest is to be the water of bitterness that brings a curse. 19‘And the priest shall have her take an oath and shall say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you and if you have not gone astray into uncleanness, being under the authority of your husband, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings a curse; 20if you, however, have gone astray, being under the authority of your husband, and if you have defiled yourself and a man other than your husband has had intercourse with you” 21(then the priest shall have the woman swear with the oath of the curse, and the priest shall say to the woman), “the LORD make you a curse and an oath among your people by the LORD’S making your thigh waste away and your abdomen swell; 22and this water that brings a curse shall go into your stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh waste away.” And the woman shall say, “AMEN, AMEN.”
even the potential destruction of human life is considered wrong in God's eye