Penalty for ABORTION.

Christians, "pro-lifers", conservatives, republicans and Trump supporters......I have a very important question for you. What do you think should be the penalty for abortion??? Before you start hammering away at your keyboards, remember: Most evangelical Christians (excluding myself) believe that abortion is murder. Furthermore, most evangelical Christians (this time myself included) believe that first degree murder should be punishable by DEATH.

So if abortion (which is usually planned ahead of time via clinical appointments) is deemed murder, then it should, hypothetically, be classified as first degree.

Since Trump and Co. appear to be hardliner Christian fundies, and since abortion has been a hot topic since the 60's, what's next? Is legislation going to be passed to prosecute women who get abortions??? Are we going to start executing them???

I believe the soul enters the human body at birth when the child takes its first breath, and I have good reason for holding that belief. If you objectively examine the Bible in its original languages, the "pro-life" doctrine begins to crumble away at its foundation. It does not stand when faced with the Word of God.

I quoted a few points from this thread to show you what some of the mistranslated "pro-life" passages really say.

Its time that Christians start waking up, because Trump's election is just the beginning of a really dark period in American history. American Christians will soon have to make a decision. Support the harlotry of the Seven Mountains doctrine, or examine the Word of God with some real objectivity. Abandon the canned sermons of Churchianity, and get yourself back on track by using 1John 1:9 (use it like breathing), coupled with Bible study.

Ok. Gen 16:11, Gen 25:21-22, Hosea 12:3, and Romans 9:10-11 are all taken out of context as they emphasize God's divine plan of predestination.
"With child" (Gen 16:11) or 'harah' in Hebrew literally means to conceive. It does not in any way indicate that a fetus has a living soul.
Jacob and Esau did not consciously struggle in the womb, it was just the movement of the biomechanical flesh. To rectify that, look at Exodus 21:22

Exodus 21:22 “And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.

If a woman miscarries without additional damage, there is no penalty for murder. If the woman dies, then there is a death penalty. God did not view a fetus as having a living soul. Why???? Because the soul is the breath of life (Gen 2:7). Adam was not alive until God breathed life into his soulless body. The woman in Exo 22:21 is the subject, and the fight, resulting in damages, is the predicate. Therefore injury inflicted upon the woman is the issue, never the fetus.

Lets look at NT now. Luke 1:15

"for he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother's womb"

ἔσται γὰρ μέγας ἐνώπιον Κυρίου, καὶ οἶνον καὶ σίκερα οὐ μὴ πίῃ, καὶ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου πλησθήσεται ἔτι ἐκ κοιλίας μητρὸς αὐτοῦ


John the Baptist was not filled with the Holy Spirit while in the womb. He was filled after LEAVING THE WOMB as indicated by the NEW TESTAMENT Greek Preposition, ek (ἐκ).

By the way, in Psalm 22:9-10, the key word in both verses is mibbaten (מִבָּ֑טֶן). Just as in the case of Luke 1:15, the prefix min (מִ) is a preposition that means, outside of. So David is talking about how God took him out from the womb. Why would that be important to mention? Again, Gen 2:7, God always breathes the breath of life into soulless flesh. There is never a soul in an embryo at conception, nor in a fetus during gestation. At least the Bible doesn't teach that.


Isaiah 44:2, as you so zealously cited,is the exact same case as Psalm 22:9-10. Yet again, it is emphasized that God created us (our souls) OUTSIDE OF THE WOMB (mibbeten מִבֶּ֖טֶן). Obviously its not talking about our bodies, as dying flesh begins its biological development WITHIN THE WOMB, but soul and spirit are not flesh, and therefore cannot be formed by gestation. Only God can create soul and spirit.

The penalty for abortion should be eternity in hell.
Of course.

The fact that there are policy makers in my country that belive the same things you do scares the hell out of me.

a reply to: BlueAjah

Sarcasm???

If not, would you explain why you thing that?

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Have you read my proposed re-visit to abortion laws??
We did pretty well with compromises and such as well as outlining penalties, and restoring father's rights in the choice for termination of life. I listed many exemptions as well. I meant to tie in a separate proposal that this legislation could tie in with birth control funding for prevention. I think that dialogue was rather constructive. I will paste the proposed legislation here and maybe we can continue to refine it?? I did not send it yet to my Senator because I want to tie in that funding for preventative care.

Basically abortion would still be legal, but limited to one non exempt procedure annually per woman. The physician is also punished for performing a procedure past the limit not under exemption. Would you mind if we work on refining this better so it can be submitted for a look to our senators??

originally posted by: worldstarcountry
This proposal applies to ANY State or Federal jurisdiction, whichever jurisdiction it gets relegated to.

First off, I believe that the choice to kill unborn babies, literally the most vulnerable segment of the human race, requires the consent of both creators. But I will write in some clauses on that as well. I throwing my own title into it, but I think the lawmakers will probably come up with something better anyways.

So without further a due , here are my proposals:

Resolution to Re-Define Early Termination of Unborn Humans Act (The name is a work in progress, and subject to change)
Introduction
In an effort to curb the rampant immorality of our people in God's eyesIn an effort to curb dangerous and irresponsible behavior, as well as take into account the rights of the father which have been ignored and neglected for generations, new restrictions on the termination of unborn life shall hereby be in effect.
A new maximum allowance of one termination of life per annum will hereby go into effect, with the exception of waivers outlined in section one.
Section 1]:No citizen of the USA may seek to have more than the authorized maximum allowance for termination of life in a given year, with the following exceptions noted:

1. (a)the delivery of the child may cause undue hardships, stresses, injury, or fatality to either the mother or child
   
2. (b)a diagnosis for a terminal illness, or genetic defect has been identified which would severely limit and/or impair the quality of life of the child
   
3. (c)the conception was the product of rape or incest
   
4. (d)the mother falls into a coma that may complicate delivery. In which case the decision to terminate will fall to the father if present, or the legal guardian, and then to executor of estate.
   
5. (e)the mother will be entering or is already incarcerated into prison for the duration of the pregnancy, at which point she may choose termination
   
   Penalties outlined in Section 4
   Section 2]No woman, without the consent of the father who's genetic code makes up 50% of the conceived life, may carry out the termination of an unborn human life without the consent of the father , with exception to the following life situations:
   
   
   1. (a)the woman has no clue who the father is or may be,
      
   2. (b)the father has waived his parental rights to make a decision in the fate of his child,
      
   3. (c)the father is absentee and has abandoned his duties as a parent,t
      
   4. (d)the father has any existing domestic violence convictions against the mother
      
   5. (e)the father is incarcerated at any point during the pregnancy
      
   6. (f)the father has been committed to psychiatric care at any point during his life or declared mentally deficit, even upon being cleared to re-renter society
      
   7. (g)the father is registered as a sex offender
      
   8. (h)the father is in a medical state, such as a coma, and is unable to make his wishes known, unless before entering such state, has had his wishes for the child known by way of a legal and notarized writ on file.
      
      Penalties outlined in Section 4
      Section 3] No government agency or jurisdiction or private interest has the authority to order forced sterilization upon any woman against her will, or intervene in the voluntary choice by a woman to become sterilized. NO EXCEPTIONS
      
      Section 4]Criminal Penalties
      Nobody is guilt of a crime by seeking consultation with a physician, religious figure, friend, family, or legal counsel on termination of life.
      If a termination of life is medically documented beyond the established per annum limit and does not fall within the exceptions highlighted in Section 2, the individual is guilty of a first degree misdemeanor, punishable by up to 1 year in prison, and a maximum fine of ten thousand dollars ($10,000). Any medical professional who assists in the execution of a termination of life beyond the per annum limit is guilty of a third degree felony punishable by up to five years in prison, a maximum imposed fine of up to $250,000, and may risk losing their certification to practice medicine.
      

Scientifically, there is no developmental difference between the preemie struggling for its life in the NICU and the one still inside its mother's womb.

And yet, we accord one its unalienable right to life while the other can be disposed of at its mother's convenience.

The only real difference is the location of the two.

Hmm, no. Legally, that pregnant mother can be murdered and the murderer can be charged with two counts of murder. Or if someone'as negligent actions lead that mother to lose her child, the she can sue for wrongful death.

But she can also walk into a clinic and dispose of its life because it happens to be inconvenient to her.

Those positions to me encompass a great deal of cognitive dissonance your spiritual beliefs aside.

originally posted by: BlueAjah
The penalty for abortion should be eternity in hell.
Of course.

Signed, God?

I just don't think anything is so plain right or wrong.

a reply to: worldstarcountry

Thanks for contributing. I subscribed to that thread, so I'll examine your proposals closely. I should mention that I believe abortion should be illegal at whatever developmental stage that allows the fetus to born. I don't know when that point occurs, but obviously, no aborting pregnancies at 8 months.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest


You need to get off your high horse.


Women are going to find ways to abort their fetuses no matter how you feel about it.


YOu are sooooo wrong.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

This is a judgment for "god" to make..

I don't think anyone can tell another person what to do with thier body..

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
I believe the soul enters the human body at birth...

Bizarre and arbitrary beliefs that have no substantive foundation. Truly a disservice to your cause.

Going on 'belief,' alone... no one's belief reigns supreme. Let's all agree to disagree...that's about the best that can come of this topic.

originally posted by: Mousygretchen
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest


You need to get off your high horse.


Women are going to find ways to abort their fetuses no matter how you feel about it.


YOu are sooooo wrong.

Did you read my OP at all? Because I do not believe in penalizing abortion.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
I believe the soul enters the human body at birth...

Bizarre and arbitrary beliefs that have no substantive foundation. Truly a disservice to your cause.

Going on 'belief,' alone... no one's belief reigns supreme. Let's all agree to disagree...that's about the best that can come of this topic.

Ok. So we disagree. But that doesn't solve or prove anything.

It is inevitable that abortion will be a big issue under Trump's admin. So do we as a nation prosecute women who have abortions based on the BELIEF that it is murder? Or do we allow abortions to continue based on the BELIEF that it is not murder?

One way or another, someone will be unhappy.

originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

This is a judgment for "god" to make..

I don't think anyone can tell another person what to do with thier body..

I agree 100%!

a reply to: worldstarcountry


Per annnum? Why once per year? It sounds reasonable, but it shouldn't be a LAW. That sounds more like a Walgreen's coupon rule.

There could be a case where it happens to a woman more than once in one year, but never before or after. That limit has too many situations to cover.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Trump and Co. appear to be hardliner Christian fundies, and since abortion has been a hot topic since the 60's, what's next? Is legislation going to be passed to prosecute women who get abortions??? Are we going to start executing them???

Hopefully not. Who's going to determine whether someone "aborted on purpose", if a woman has a miscarriage.
Slippery slope.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Most women who make the hard decision to have an abortion punish themselves for the rest of their lives. They don't need the government to do it for them. Years down the road when they look lovingly upon their later children they think back to the child that was never born and what they would then be doing and they grieve. That grief follows them as long as they live. That is worse than any penalty the government could ever put upon them. Christ would show them compassion, so where is ours?

a reply to: ketsuko

Scientifically, there is no developmental difference between the preemie struggling for its life in the NICU and the one still inside its mother's womb.

That's absolutely not true. Elective abortion are only allowable BEFORE viability.

a reply to: worldstarcountry

That actually looks quite reasonable for all parties involved unless some actual hard science can prove or disprove when human life actually begins. I really can't understand the mentality of pro-choicers who constantly insist that a fetus is a "body part" without even trying to go the safe route in the event they might actually be committing a murder. Personally, it seems more logical to take the SAFEST route around murder as humanly possible.

Anyway...

Allowing fathers to be joint decision makers is a MUST, IMO.

One thing I didn't see in your proposal however, was your thoughts on when an abortion is acceptable during the timeline of pregnancy.

Otherwise, decent job.

ETA: Woops! I meant pro-choicers NOT pro lifers in the above paragraph. Fixed.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: BlueAjah
The penalty for abortion should be eternity in hell.
Of course.

Signed, God?

I just don't think anything is so plain right or wrong.

There are certain things that ARE plain right or wrong.
It is plain wrong to molest or harm a child.
It is certainly plain wrong to murder anyone, especially a child.
An unborn child is still a child.

I lost babies very early.
I mourned as much as if a child died, because that is how it feels.
Anyone who can callously murder their own unborn child must be pure evil, because there is no way a feeling person could not love and treasure a child from the moment they find out it is growing inside of them.

It is the most selfish thing a person can do to take another life just because they don't want to be bothered.
That is as bad as putting your 2 year old in a closet and not feeding him just because you don't care and have better things to do.

Someday society is going to become aware and acknowledge the evil that they allowed to go on for so long.