Penalty for ABORTION.

a reply to: Wookiep

That's fair enough. I believe the issue is between the woman and God. My point is that Trump's crew are all pretty much fundamentalists. We have to face the reality that they might attempt to criminalize and penalize abortion.

I don't think it should be up to the government.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Personally, I think it should be up to the states to decide. Too many areas in the U.S. share vastly different views, and one national federalized solution will not be good enough for the entire nation, ever.

I agree with separation of church and state as well, there is a reason for it. I engaged you on the topic because of your personal stance on abortion.

Thanks for the discussion.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I'm not an evangelical Christian.

Until society deems the unborn as a life, nothing will ever be done. When it is considered a life and the unborn has the same rights as everyone else, then it should be considered as murder.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

So you claim to be a Christian, but you support the killing of babies and adults.

Funny. I'm Christian and I support the preserving of babies and adults.

One of us loves the innocent and the guilty - the other does not.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

I guess you're pro-life and against the death penalty for murderers?

All I can say is, pro-lifers have not made a sufficient case to prove that a fetus has a soul, and even the Bible supports the death penalty for murder.
"live by the sword, die by the sword"

originally posted by: BlueAjah

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: BlueAjah
The penalty for abortion should be eternity in hell.
Of course.

Signed, God?

I just don't think anything is so plain right or wrong.

There are certain things that ARE plain right or wrong.
It is plain wrong to molest or harm a child.
It is certainly plain wrong to murder anyone, especially a child.
An unborn child is still a child.

I lost babies very early.
I mourned as much as if a child died, because that is how it feels.
Anyone who can callously murder their own unborn child must be pure evil, because there is no way a feeling person could not love and treasure a child from the moment they find out it is growing inside of them.

It is the most selfish thing a person can do to take another life just because they don't want to be bothered.
That is as bad as putting your 2 year old in a closet and not feeding him just because you don't care and have better things to do.

Someday society is going to become aware and acknowledge the evil that they allowed to go on for so long.

So true. My first pregnancy was totally unplanned and definitely not in the "right circumstances". However, I was totally in love with that little person growing inside me from the get go. Even though I was scared to death and didn't know how the heck I would support it.
Thing is, I relied on God, and everything worked out. Not only that, but I wouldn't trade that oldest kiddo of mine for any amount of money in the world...and I'd go through all that doubt, fear, etc., again, just to have him here.
A child in the womb is just that...a child. The heartbeat begins at 6 weeks...most women don't even know they are pregnant till then or later.
A heartbeat means it's a HUMAN BEING, just not fully formed yet.
Oh, and someone else posted how a woman will feel enormous guilt for a lifetime if deciding on abortion. It's true. I've known many women who have gone through that.
Maybe not all women, but most. It scars a woman. We all innately KNOW it's wrong, and it IS murder.
On top of that, no MAN should start an OP on this subject. You have no way in hell of truly understanding this.

Just to remind everyone, Trump has stated that there should be some form of punishment for abortion.



So again, this is an issue that has the potential to destroy lives all over the US, depending on how extreme the Alt-Right controlled government decides to go.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: TarzanBeta

I guess you're pro-life and against the death penalty for murderers?

All I can say is, pro-lifers have not made a sufficient case to prove that a fetus has a soul, and even the Bible supports the death penalty for murder.
"live by the sword, die by the sword"

The sword is the Word.

The Word commanded Peter not to defend him, then healed the ear of one of his murderers.

To live by the sword and die by the sword was practiced so we could learn to live by the Word and die by the Word.

You've gained no Spirit.

And if you need science to tell you when the soul forms, you'll be waiting forever.

But God said He knows us before we are even conceived. "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you."

Go read.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I agree with everything you said except for saying "no man".

You claim that a part of me did not die when my baby was aborted against my will? Against my begging, pleading, crying, and pigmented dark red skin from the anguish?

That was the first murder of my own soul.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Who are you to judge my spirit? What if by some off chance, I happen to be right on this issue? What does that say about your spirit?

Maybe you should actually do some research of your own on the subject and search the Hebrew and Greek scriptures for yourself rather than accepting what someone else taught you as truth.

Let me know when you can actually back up your claims with scripture. Then maybe we can talk about the health of my spirit.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: TarzanBeta

Who are you to judge my spirit? What if by some off chance, I happen to be right on this issue? What does that say about your spirit?

Maybe you should actually do some research of your own on the subject and search the Hebrew and Greek scriptures for yourself rather than accepting what someone else taught you as truth.

Let me know when you can actually back up your claims with scripture. Then maybe we can talk about the health of my spirit.

I judge your spirit because it doesn't have love.

I quoted Scripture to you. What have you for me?

Here is more : "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? How much more things that pertain to this life."

a reply to: TarzanBeta


I already provided scriptural citations. And Jeremiah 1:5 is about God's foreknowledge, decree and predestination. It has nothing to do with a soul being imputed into a fetus.

Psalm 22:10 "Upon You I was cast from birth; You have been my God from my mother's womb."

In Hebrew, immi mibbeten means out fromthe womb, out from my mother
So God was David's God from his birth, not conception, because David was not a living soul when his mother was pregnant.

By the way, in Psalm 22:9-10, the key word in both verses is mibbaten (מִבָּ֑טֶן). Just as in the case of Luke 1:15, the prefix min (מִ) is a preposition that means, outside of. So David is talking about how God took him out from the womb. Why would that be important to mention? Again, Gen 2:7, God always breathes the breath of life into soulless flesh. There is never a soul in an embryo at conception, nor in a fetus during gestation. At least the Bible doesn't teach that.


Isaiah 44:2, as you so zealously cited,is the exact same case as Psalm 22:9-10. Yet again, it is emphasized that God created us (our souls) OUTSIDE OF THE WOMB (mibbeten מִבֶּ֖טֶן). Obviously its not talking about our bodies, as dying flesh begins its biological development WITHIN THE WOMB, but soul and spirit are not flesh, and therefore cannot be formed by gestation. Only God can create soul and spirit.

See for yourself. The Hebrew and Greek scriptures are available for free to anyone with an internet connection.
biblehub.com...

Look up Isaiah 44:2, Psalm 22:9-10, Gen 2:7, and Luke 1:15.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

If I hadn't had another life experience, I would entertain your word games and beat you(easily).

But I witnessed my son Edgar acting the same outside the womb as inside the womb. He was born very premature, the size of a 2 week old puppy.

What was even cooler was the fact that he KNEW US.

And unfortunately my Sith Lord of a mother, which annoys my wife.

Do you know why? Because that's who he heard from the beginning.

Now, you could say, Well... That was just his brain forming.

Okay... Then what good is the soul if the body already knows what it's doing? So now we think something is not alive unless it has the arbitrary spirit, but with no soul at all?

And yet, someone can breathe with a machine and be dead, no coming back. But the law would say it is murder to pull that plug without consent. No kicking, no sucking, nothing. Hmm.

I could easily beat you at your word game, but I'll simply leave you to ponder this : What if Mary had an abortion? Did God not put His Spirit into her? Or did he wait for her to asexually reproduce and give birth before He entered into Jesus?

I think you know the Scriptural answer to that one.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

You should have stuck with the word game because you really didn't prove anything. If you say you can beat me, then do it, because as far as I'm concerned, the Bible is the WORD of God, and we are told to live by every Word that proceeds from His mouth.

How is your personal experience supposed to convince me or anyone else other than you of anything? Its all subjective.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You say that science has not proven the soul is formed within the womb. Or, basically, you're not alive until you're born. You said that.

Interesting. Scientists have proven that babies get oxygen, or breathe, through the umbilical cord.

The mother is a living soul. If the mother is not breathing, the child dies. Why? Because then the child is not breathing.

But you're far too simple to understand the implications.

By the way, Isaiah 44:2 says "beten", not "mibbeten".

beten

The same is for Psalm 22:9.

It can mean womb and even it is used twice as "within" according to Strong's. Go see for yourself.

But never as "outside of". Though ancient English said "from"...

From

Now click on more translations, or simply search the definition, and you will find as the very first result!:

from

frəm/

preposition

preposition: from

1.

indicating the point in space at which a journey, motion, or action starts.

Notice that this doesn't mean "outside"...

It actually starts at the very moment.

originally posted by: BobbyRock
There's an EASY fix to this problem....
Starting tomorrow... sterilize ALL male citizens (of ALL ages) in the US of A.... No woman, as far as I know, has faced an unwanted pregnancy without at least one male involved....

And if I may.... (slightly Off Topic)
Why are there so many Pro-Lifers also Pro-Death Penalty?
Isn't the Death Penalty just an EXTREMLY late term abortion?

Perfect analogy

originally posted by: violet

originally posted by: BobbyRock
There's an EASY fix to this problem....
Starting tomorrow... sterilize ALL male citizens (of ALL ages) in the US of A.... No woman, as far as I know, has faced an unwanted pregnancy without at least one male involved....

And if I may.... (slightly Off Topic)
Why are there so many Pro-Lifers also Pro-Death Penalty?
Isn't the Death Penalty just an EXTREMLY late term abortion?

Perfect analogy

Well that's why I'm a Christian that is against abortion and the death penalty. I don't listen to the group, I care about what's right - life.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I wonder if you've considered the Annunciation or conception of Christ? Likewise, the conception of John the Baptist?

In my Church we sing a hymn to celebrate ....

Today is the beginning of our salvation, the revelation of the eternal mystery! The Son of God becomes the Son of the virgin as Gabriel announces the coming of Grace...

Was Christ not fully God and man at conception? Was John the Baptist not fully man at conception? These announcements by Gabriel say YES!

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

I am absolutely astounded when I see christians preaching hate
We were all created by the same God, He gave us all free will, the capacity to choose.

The penalty for abortion should be unconditional love as Jesus taught christians to offer into this world.
Not hate speech, judgement and condemnation, I pity you and any human who believes you stand with Christ

I am afraid there is little Christ in you, Jesus wasnt a dictator but you are being one in His name?
Its their choice, God gave them a choice.

Using Old Testament, Jewish law to condemn others and you call yourself a christian
Believer Priest do you know you are not a Jew, not under the law?

Whoa. Wait a minute. Who am I condemning exactly?

I spent half of the OP stating that I am pro-choice. So what condemnation or judgment am I passing? How exactly am I acting like a dictator? I didn't even suggest that abortion should be penalized.

You are preaching division, sensationalism and chasm
There is nothing edifying in your post, condemning those who are for or against is your sole purpose.

a reply to: TarzanBeta

Don't confuse the biochemistry of the flesh with the immaterial soul. When flesh is deprived of oxygen it dies. The soul does not die.

Both Isaiah 44:2 and Psalm 22:9-10 indeed say mibbeten. It is a preposition that means from.

Psalm 22:9-10
כִּֽי־אַתָּ֣ה גֹחִ֣י מִבָּ֑טֶן מַ֝בְטִיחִ֗י עַל־שְׁדֵ֥י אִמִּֽי׃
Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb; You made me trust when upon my mother's breasts.
עָ֭לֶיךָ הָשְׁלַ֣כְתִּי מֵרָ֑חֶם מִבֶּ֥טֶן אִ֝מִּ֗י אֵ֣לִי אָֽתָּה׃
Upon You I was cast from birth; You have been my God from my mother's womb.

The text is very specific. David was taken out from the womb. If he wanted to emphasize being inside the womb, he would have used babbeten (בַּבֶּ֖טֶן), but that isn't the case.

Isaiah 44:2
כֹּה־אָמַ֨ר יְהוָ֥ה עֹשֶׂ֛ךָ וְיֹצֶרְךָ֥ מִבֶּ֖טֶן יַעְזְרֶ֑ךָּ אַל־תִּירָא֙ עַבְדִּ֣י יַֽעֲקֹ֔ב וִישֻׁר֖וּן בָּחַ֥רְתִּי בֹֽו׃
Thus says the LORD who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you, 'Do not fear, O Jacob My servant; And you Jeshurun whom I have chosen.