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Penalty for ABORTION.

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posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:14 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
Christians, "pro-lifers", conservatives, republicans and Trump supporters......I have a very important question for you. What do you think should be the penalty for abortion??? Before you start hammering away at your keyboards, remember: Most evangelical Christians (excluding myself) believe that abortion is murder. Furthermore, most evangelical Christians (this time myself included) believe that first degree murder should be punishable by DEATH.

So if abortion (which is usually planned ahead of time via clinical appointments) is deemed murder, then it should, hypothetically, be classified as first degree.

Since Trump and Co. appear to be hardliner Christian fundies, and since abortion has been a hot topic since the 60's, what's next? Is legislation going to be passed to prosecute women who get abortions??? Are we going to start executing them???



First off...you aren't a female...who is with child. So, you have no claim to even understand what happens in a woman's body when she becomes pregnant. Not only that, but I HAVE FACED legitimate FEAR over having a child out of wedlock and too many other numerous things to mention. You know who I trusted in? GOD. That was when I was barely 6 weeks pregnant...and sacred as #.
So, guess what? THAT GOD you say you serve....helped me above and beyond, because I KNEW without a shadow of a doubt, that taking the life of that child (even if it was just "cells" at the time)...was WRONG.
So, shut up, dude. You have nothing to say worth a damn.

I believe the soul enters the human body at birth when the child takes its first breath, and I have good reason for holding that belief. If you objectively examine the Bible in its original languages, the "pro-life" doctrine begins to crumble away at its foundation. It does not stand when faced with the Word of God.

I quoted a few points from this thread to show you what some of the mistranslated "pro-life" passages really say.

Its time that Christians start waking up, because Trump's election is just the beginning of a really dark period in American history. American Christians will soon have to make a decision. Support the harlotry of the Seven Mountains doctrine, or examine the Word of God with some real objectivity. Abandon the canned sermons of Churchianity, and get yourself back on track by using 1John 1:9 (use it like breathing), coupled with Bible study.



Ok. Gen 16:11, Gen 25:21-22, Hosea 12:3, and Romans 9:10-11 are all taken out of context as they emphasize God's divine plan of predestination.
"With child" (Gen 16:11) or 'harah' in Hebrew literally means to conceive. It does not in any way indicate that a fetus has a living soul.
Jacob and Esau did not consciously struggle in the womb, it was just the movement of the biomechanical flesh. To rectify that, look at Exodus 21:22

Exodus 21:22 “And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide.

If a woman miscarries without additional damage, there is no penalty for murder. If the woman dies, then there is a death penalty. God did not view a fetus as having a living soul. Why???? Because the soul is the breath of life (Gen 2:7). Adam was not alive until God breathed life into his soulless body. The woman in Exo 22:21 is the subject, and the fight, resulting in damages, is the predicate. Therefore injury inflicted upon the woman is the issue, never the fetus.

Lets look at NT now. Luke 1:15

"for he shall be great before the Lord, and wine and strong drink he may not drink, and of the Holy Spirit he shall be full, even from his mother's womb"

ἔσται γὰρ μέγας ἐνώπιον Κυρίου, καὶ οἶνον καὶ σίκερα οὐ μὴ πίῃ, καὶ Πνεύματος Ἁγίου πλησθήσεται ἔτι ἐκ κοιλίας μητρὸς αὐτοῦ


John the Baptist was not filled with the Holy Spirit while in the womb. He was filled after LEAVING THE WOMB as indicated by the NEW TESTAMENT Greek Preposition, ek (ἐκ).







By the way, in Psalm 22:9-10, the key word in both verses is mibbaten (מִבָּ֑טֶן). Just as in the case of Luke 1:15, the prefix min (מִ) is a preposition that means, outside of. So David is talking about how God took him out from the womb. Why would that be important to mention? Again, Gen 2:7, God always breathes the breath of life into soulless flesh. There is never a soul in an embryo at conception, nor in a fetus during gestation. At least the Bible doesn't teach that.


Isaiah 44:2, as you so zealously cited,is the exact same case as Psalm 22:9-10. Yet again, it is emphasized that God created us (our souls) OUTSIDE OF THE WOMB (mibbeten מִבֶּ֖טֶן). Obviously its not talking about our bodies, as dying flesh begins its biological development WITHIN THE WOMB, but soul and spirit are not flesh, and therefore cannot be formed by gestation. Only God can create soul and spirit.

edit on 3-2-2017 by Matrixsurvivor because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-2-2017 by Matrixsurvivor because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:18 PM
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Have you ever been pregnant? Have you ever had a baby? Have you ever been a mother? Have you ever felt a child growing inside you?
If not...then shut up. You have NO input...seriously.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:25 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
Christians, "pro-lifers", conservatives, republicans and Trump supporters......I have a very important question for you. What do you think should be the penalty for abortion??? Before you start hammering away at your keyboards, remember: Most evangelical Christians (excluding myself) believe that abortion is murder. Furthermore, most evangelical Christians (this time myself included) believe that first degree murder should be punishable by DEATH.


Yes, but you also believe in all sorts of ridiculous magic BS that never happened and goofy stories that are so divorced from reality that it's incredible that even a child would believe them to be factual. So you'll have to excuse the rest of us when we say you shouldn't be in charge of anything that has to do with other peoples lives. Work on you're own lives and leave other people alone. You don't have all the answers like you think you do and we're sick of you trying to run everyone's life with your self righteous claims of authority.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:28 PM
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originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
Have you ever been pregnant? Have you ever had a baby? Have you ever been a mother? Have you ever felt a child growing inside you?
If not...then shut up. You have NO input...seriously.


Kind of an over reaction if you ask me. These are important issues that need to be discussed objectively. That means we have to set our emotions and subjective experiences aside sometimes.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:32 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

Kind of an over reaction if you ask me. These are important issues that need to be discussed objectively. That means we have to set our emotions and subjective experiences aside sometimes.



LOL

Meanwhile you're talking about what form of punishment to dish out because other people are going against you Beliefs!!

So let's drop the pretense of objectiveness shall we???



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:37 PM
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a reply to: mOjOm





You didn't read the OP, did you? Because if you did, you would have noticed how I am not anti-abortion. You would have noticed how I do not support the mixing of religion and government. In fact, rather that being a jerk, you would have noticed how I provided evidence showing that the Bible is not anti-abortion, and that it teaches that the soul is imputed at birth, not conception. So I really don't know how Christians came to believing the 'life at conception' fallacy, nevertheless, I think your anger is misdirected.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:44 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Well, then I apologize for my mistake. I admit, I didn't make it much further than when you asked what the punishment for Abortion should be. I stopped there figuring that the rest was just more of the same.

Now I wonder why you would even bring up such a subject then if you don't find issue with it.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 10:48 PM
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a reply to: mOjOm

Its ok. I've made the same mistake many times myself.

I raised the issue, because I fear that the Trump administration is going to make it an issue in the near future. I think it has potential to divide the nation, and turn Christians against each other. So why not get people to think about it now?


edit on 3-2-2017 by BELIEVERpriest because: typo

edit on 3-2-2017 by BELIEVERpriest because: added comment

edit on 3-2-2017 by BELIEVERpriest because: punctuation



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 11:01 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Haven't Christians already turned against each other?? As well as turned against non-Christians??

I mean I hate to tell ya but the upper management or whatever you call them in the Christian Establishment have gone rogue for a while now.

I'm not sure who's on who's team anymore. Personally I wouldn't trust anyone within the church other than maybe some of the members who go there. Who knows what kinds of marching orders they're being given nowadays.

I've heard some of the craziest stuff lately from some of the better known talking heads in Christian Media. They're really walked off the map and sold out every single value that they used to support for some kind of Conservative Trump Worshiping Cult Mentality where they claim to be waging war with demons and casting out devils in some weird literal delusion which is there daily life. They need some serious mental help.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 11:10 PM
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originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Haven't Christians already turned against each other?? As well as turned against non-Christians??

I mean I hate to tell ya but the upper management or whatever you call them in the Christian Establishment have gone rogue for a while now.

I'm not sure who's on who's team anymore. Personally I wouldn't trust anyone within the church other than maybe some of the members who go there. Who knows what kinds of marching orders they're being given nowadays.

I've heard some of the craziest stuff lately from some of the better known talking heads in Christian Media. They're really walked off the map and sold out every single value that they used to support for some kind of Conservative Trump Worshiping Cult Mentality where they claim to be waging war with demons and casting out devils in some weird literal delusion which is there daily life. They need some serious mental help.


That's exactly what I'm talking about, and yes, Christians have already turned against themselves and their fellow countrymen....but I think its going to revert to state sponsored violence within the next 15 years. The trend has already started. Once they start passing real legislation (not just Executive Orders) its going to get worse.

So how do you legally justify a violent crusade? The most direct way would be to associate abortion with premeditated murder. Once society degenerates into violence, the trend rarely reverses itself.
edit on 3-2-2017 by BELIEVERpriest because: puntuation.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 11:36 PM
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a reply to: mOjOm

The circumstances that one finds themselves in reality; unable to raise a child? Is typically punishment enough... should the child suffer being forced into life; when no one is ready or it or can handle it? Even the ancient Egyptians had birth control many cultures in antitquity had their own methds of prevention or abortion.

It is a part of human history; and well 21st century according to many calendars, but not all? It's about time that reality is accepted... unwanted pregnancies have occured through out time. Even animals that normally nuture their young; if it is the wrong time or place? Will abandon or even eat them. Is it immoral? No animals do not have morality, it is a human invention... that invention of morality is not a natural thing, it is an idea, a concept that has been brought to life by us, humanity, people.

Ethically? No right to inflict such decisions on others; ethically it is best to help humanity end useless suffering and pain by elevating all of human society to a better standard of living... when that occurs? Well, side effect? Better life, better possibilities, and then in turn less need to abort... because people would be in a better situation to properly raise a child.



edit on 3-2-2017 by BigBrotherDarkness because: sp.



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 11:45 PM
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originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: Raggedyman

No that is reality... your cognitive dissonance against the facts called your belief; is why I am missing the point. I loved being a father and I still am one... I may perhaps be one again but being middle agged more likely grandfather. I love enjoy and respect life to the utmost... I do not let that blind me to the conditions of this world as a reality.

Part of the conditioning is your belief; and with oh so many trying to be the oh so few as in one? That's why we all have so many probems. Excepting reality is the wisdom to know the difference between reality and wishful thinking, fantasy and make believe? Yes part of reality as conception the same as life... but conception is an idea, that one has yet to give ideology too except in the case of an unborn human called a fetus.

Even from a rational stand point with the population nearly doubled since the 1980s add 30 more years, at that rate? We will have 18 billion people on this planet.



Again you missed the point
Oh well



posted on Feb, 3 2017 @ 11:47 PM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

There's a difference between missing a point and disagreeing. I think BBD simply disagrees with you, as I do too.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 12:10 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman

If you can't state more than one point over and over? Maybe you only see one side of it, and that is all you can point too? Something to consider... See the womans point of view, see societies point of view, see the religious point of view, see the scientific point of view, see histories point of view, see the animal behavior as a point of view... all points of view possible. One point? Does this piece fit in the picture yes of course it does, seen your point, concidered your point, and know your point... I have more than one finger, and I don't raise both to say F your one point... unless that one point is forced over and over on me so I take a onesided point of view... it's ignorant to do such a thing.




edit on 4-2-2017 by BigBrotherDarkness because: sp.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 01:23 AM
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a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

Very well put. Couldn't have said it better myself!! We need more people like you out there.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 01:27 AM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

You may be right about that. Damn, that is a bleak way to see the future I tell ya. Some of us has been theorizing such a future for a while now but not many will listen. Maybe not having to do with Abortion exactly but basically that the Religious Right have been creating quite a system of control for themselves with an agenda to one day put it in full gear. When that arrives, which it's certainly gaining speed now, I hope they come to their senses because I'd really hate to have to resort to violence over such things. There is far too much of that already and the last we need is for it to get any worse internally.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 01:48 AM
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a reply to: mOjOm

The line they draw is their point of view, no need to stand on the other side of it... I try to show there are more sides to it as in: You've fenced yourself in... trapped yourself looking in only one direction called past experience of one view or group view or speak when drawing that line. The present contains all views and well many try to skip over that into the future and just trip themselves up by first walking backwards, placing a foot in a snare that they chose to put there by attaching to it.

No one holds anyone in bondage to such things but oneself... best to see as many of those sides as pointed out... instead of being that "mirror" that means seeing it as clear as possible not reflecting the same hate or ugliness thinking it love or beauty, as they will just see hate or ugliness mistaking their refletion for the love and beauty just the same.

Then round and round and round accomplishing really nothing but the round and round that goes on as all systems circular? To infinity, best to step outside of it and watch it spin to gain wisdom and knowledge as all sides possible seen.

That's all I've done. We have judgment and it is always best placed on oneself before another. These concepts and ideas and ideologies and beliefs are not us and can never be us; just something to carry on one's head and point to it... like hey check out this shoe I am wearing on my head, it is walking me because I am not walking it... but in a sense you are as it's dog; as it's dog it will command you like that mirror as it then becomes your god.


edit on 4-2-2017 by BigBrotherDarkness because: sp.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 01:52 AM
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a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

What if they draw a line in a circle around themselves. Then everyone else is on the other side of it no matter where you stand.



posted on Feb, 4 2017 @ 04:18 AM
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originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: Raggedyman

If you can't state more than one point over and over? Maybe you only see one side of it, and that is all you can point too? Something to consider... See the womans point of view, see societies point of view, see the religious point of view, see the scientific point of view, see histories point of view, see the animal behavior as a point of view... all points of view possible. One point? Does this piece fit in the picture yes of course it does, seen your point, concidered your point, and know your point... I have more than one finger, and I don't raise both to say F your one point... unless that one point is forced over and over on me so I take a onesided point of view... it's ignorant to do such a thing.





Excuse me but that's a simpleton answer, completely ignored what I wrote
I said very clearly over and over
I think a woman has a choice and she can excercise her choice, go read it, it's in this thread
I see more than one side, I understand the pro abortion side, I accept it

You my simple friend are the one who can't see the anti abortion argument.
How on earth can you suggest I don't when you are the one fighting for every breath

What I was trying to get you to understand is that you are not the be all and end of all things, that you can only moan about your circumstances and how ripped off you were

You have turned this thread into a "Oh poor me" festival
How and why, it's not about you

I understand and accept both sides of this argument with no judgement, you, just moaning about your life, moaning about me and the world that won't dance to your dirge




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