French TV Bans Smiling Down Syndrome Kids - Dear Future Moms Banned As Offensive

originally posted by: oddnutz
a reply to: SPHARAOH

The third reich just called, Hitler wants you and trollz back.

Thanks for the free smile.

But seriously I respect you have an opinion and you are entitled to share it on ATS, even if I do not agree with it.

As everyone does on earth and beyond and opinions as harsh sounding as they might be are not facts.

My opinion is, if we removed all those humans on this earth devoid of empathy, understanding, tenderness, kindness, tolerance, consideration, decency and love we would be living in a much better world.

Robots? Lol. Believe it or not i have all those traits but not at 100℅ and they sometimes vary.

If someone terminates an unborn child I respect their right to that decision even if I do not always agree with it. I also respect France's decision to not air this commercial even though I do not agree with it.
While the commercial could upset people who decided to terminate a pregnancy based on medical advice that is not alway 100% infallible it could also offer hope and reassurance to other people who do have a child with a disability.

Definitely more eloquent than what i posted.

Somehow i screwed up the quoting. My answers are quoted to what was posted.

edit on 26-11-2016 by SPHARAOH because: Screw up

a reply to: TNMockingbird

How would, or does, a Downs adult even make enough money to live adequately...especially in regards to the trend of them marrying, marrying another Downs person? I think it's great in terms of their being able to expand and improve their quality of emotional life. But what about the dubious and highly irresponsible choice they may make to produce offspring? The implications are huge to say the least. I guess it simply depends on which end of the human spectrum you view the whole matter from, since in reality both pros and cons hold major credibility to the point, I believe, of never being able to go beyond a stalemate. Unless, of course, science alone prevailed.

We all know how expensive life is for a "normal" person, but for the handicapped it's phenomenal. How can allowing a child with severe genetic abnormalities to be born equate to not becoming a burden on society, let alone to itself? There's so MANY things a woman should consider when making the decision to birth a child destined to have abnormalities that can't be fully recognized until after it's born...I don't think I personally could handle it since my first, most ingrained reaction would be not to proceed with the pregnancy. Honestly, I don't think ANY amount of weighing pro vs con could change that.

I've seen first hand the misery that a child born with the worst of Downs symptoms brought to a family friend and how it tore their family apart and nearly destroyed their first two children. Their entire focus, energy and income was invested in nothing other than day to day upkeep of the one...basically the ONLY child in a three child family. It was devastating for all throughout the nine years it took for that child to die. Not a typical story, but who's to say it wouldn't be until it's too late? Not truly what could be called a fellow human being, except in name only...and no amount of compassion can change that.

a reply to: Rubicon3

I'm happy for whatever element of my tax pounds (£'s) go towards helping people with disabilities....take an extra 1%, even more.
That's what taxes should be for in my opinion .

originally posted by: trollz

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: trollz

Wow, I understand why you chose your username

I wish I didn't have to explain this to people, but "trollz" refers to the trolls of Scandinavian folklore.

Go ahead and explain to me how I'm wrong though, how mental retardation benefits society and helps human beings progress. Imagine if every single person born after this point in time had Down's Syndrome. Do you know what would happen? Human beings would go extinct. You know it's true whether you'll admit it or not.

Societies would never allow this many decades ago, now those with Downs get married and have children. The push to keep average people medicated with some kind of mind altering drug has been rampant for decades and people fall for it. The mentally ill are allowed to have jobs, own houses, roam the streets, treated as if it's no big deal compared to decades ago. Too many books at the public library are just filled with nonsense crap that just messes with the brain, for starters look at the children's books. Seriously. Come on. And look at the shows. Furry monsters or cutsie aliens teaching kids in high pitch voices, then the adult movies, killing is entertainment. Really? Then all the porn, then this overt and hidden caste systems.

I swear this place is like some kind of testing ground and we're like the lab rats living in it. We are all screwed up. So to have compassion for someone with Downs, well, that's our own, but that is seriously screwed up to have that biologically occur, or mental illness, because It really seems all of us here were made perfect, you can clearly feel and see everyone's developed spirit, but biologically and brain function wise, seriously who the hell fubarred us all up? Maybe some psycho entity was jealous of us, and injected all this bs into our genetics. Purposefully. That conspiracy theory right there has many avenues of development as to why we are screwed like this. Many theories already developed.

Holy Spirit.

STOP THEM RIGHT NOW. JUST STOP THIS. ENOUGH.

originally posted by: Rubicon3
a reply to: TNMockingbird

How would, or does, a Downs adult even make enough money to live adequately...especially in regards to the trend of them marrying, marrying another Downs person? I think it's great in terms of their being able to expand and improve their quality of emotional life. But what about the dubious and highly irresponsible choice they may make to produce offspring? The implications are huge to say the least. I guess it simply depends on which end of the human spectrum you view the whole matter from, since in reality both pros and cons hold major credibility to the point, I believe, of never being able to go beyond a stalemate. Unless, of course, science alone prevailed.

We all know how expensive life is for a "normal" person, but for the handicapped it's phenomenal. How can allowing a child with severe genetic abnormalities to be born equate to not becoming a burden on society, let alone to itself? There's so MANY things a woman should consider when making the decision to birth a child destined to have abnormalities that can't be fully recognized until after it's born...I don't think I personally could handle it since my first, most ingrained reaction would be not to proceed with the pregnancy. Honestly, I don't think ANY amount of weighing pro vs con could change that.

I've seen first hand the misery that a child born with the worst of Downs symptoms brought to a family friend and how it tore their family apart and nearly destroyed their first two children. Their entire focus, energy and income was invested in nothing other than day to day upkeep of the one...basically the ONLY child in a three child family. It was devastating for all throughout the nine years it took for that child to die. Not a typical story, but who's to say it wouldn't be until it's too late? Not truly what could be called a fellow human being, except in name only...and no amount of compassion can change that.

Quite a bit of what you say is true.

It can be horrible if Downs is coupled with Intellectual Disability and it is on the profoundly mentally retarded end of the spectrum.

Of course they receive aid from government programs not the least of which is SSA and SSI. I'm okay with that, personally.

I'd rather see it go to them than my BIL who gets a 'crazy' check for being a lazy drug addicted alcoholic. Truly.

I just feel that (after many years working with the population) you can't throw the baby out with the bath water and once a human is here we must try to make their lives as equal and fulfilling as everyone else's.

A pipe dream, perhaps.

But what about the dubious and highly irresponsible choice they may make to produce offspring?

I apologize as I had meant to address this specifically as well.

Do you assume that developmentally and intellectually disabled people are just going around 'mindlessly' having sex?
And perhaps producing offspring that they have no ability, income or education level to support?

Much like the majority of the world that I find myself living in today.

I will tell you that in the bubble of my world they are, for the most part, very mindful of the consequences of sex and pregnancy, even more so perhaps as it is drilled into them more often, IMO, than the average/normal human.

originally posted by: grainofsand

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: queenofswords

Yeah the religion thing confused me as well.
Perhaps the member will explain in more than one cryptic line.

Are you saying the film in the OP was made by a religious group?
What is your on-topic point?

From the article:

>The Council of State ruled it could 'disturb the conscience' of women who had aborted their unborn children

>Pro-choice campaigners say women should be trusted to reach the right decision for themselves

Most anti-abortionists are because of religious belief (I did not say all).

The film was banned because of abortion - - how women who had one feel - - how women possibly planning them feel.

The film was not banned because of happy Down syndrome children.

My mom was disabled. I grew up from age 5 with my mom's disabled club. All disabilities including Down syndrome. I learned early "People are their Heart".

Every LIVING child should be loved and their needs cared for.

originally posted by: TNMockingbird

I will tell you that in the bubble of my world they are, for the most part, very mindful of the consequences of sex and pregnancy, even more so perhaps as it is drilled into them more often, IMO, than the average/normal human.

I agree with you.

The disabled people I've know are more conscious of themselves, their needs, their weaknesses, where they fit into society, what it takes for them to live a "normal" life, how they affect others, etc.

They are very aware.

a reply to: TNMockingbird

I totally agree. But, as sweet minded as the majority of them are I can understand them thinking how much "fun" it would be to have their own baby. And as eager to please as most are, they may swear they understand all the "birds and bees" narrative and end up not quite getting it after all! I'd imagine that subject just might be pretty embarrassing to them!

I think my main concern would be for the child and repercussions of the embarrassment to them for their parents disability. We all know how horrible children can be to each other, whether through personal experience or hearing about kids feeling pushed to suicide by bullies. I hate to say it, but I do believe the female of our species is the absolute worst and can be blamed for the meanest, dirtiest bullying out there! That old "sticks and stones" bit is the WORST! At least broken bones will heal, but the damage words inflict is by far the hardest for the soul to heal from. I would also worry that a child of theirs could easily escape to a world where the pain of self harm/hatred abates only when they emerse themselves in drugs/alcohol. I'd imagine the idea of possibility of passing Downs on to their own children would almost be an unbearable burden. Of course I realize and hope that many would probably be doing all they could to become familiar with every scrap of information on the subject...maybe even be prompted to one day look for a solution beyond abortion to fix, or even reverse it. Wouldn't that be an absolute wonder?!

Regarding support...you're right AGAIN! That is a perfect venue to put tax dollars towards. The welfare of some of our most vulnerable is a paramount issue. We should be an absolutely shining example for the rest of the world to aspire to! If not in all areas, at least let this be one that stands as tall, if not above, any humanitarian concern we face. An issue that needs ALOT of work as it is

a reply to: infolurker

As always when the sh#t hits the fan in Europe, France will be the first to fall.

And that day is coming soon.

Such a beautiful, sad and flawed country. I don't know why they continually set themselves up for this role. Remember WWII and the Nazi occupation of France? The French folded like a cheap suit after a few days of resistance. France has not been a great power since the early 18th century. And they did it to themselves.

It will be the same this time.

Watch....

The real problem is that there are some in society who will not understand that everyone has the right to make up their own minds.
Whether it's anti Downs types banning positive accounts of having a Downs child or pro Downs groups campaigning recently to ban a safer, more accurate test for pregnant women on the grounds they may be more likely to terminate Downs pregnancies.

This is all about personal choice and to seek to deny it to others is pure facism.

a reply to: Annee

So no mention of religion at all apart from you bringing it to the debate table.
Good to have cleared that up

a reply to: trollz

I feel that human beings should strive towards good health and intellect rather than becoming complacent with retardation or disability.

Do you think if someone is diagnosed with multiple sclerosis or parkinson's or alzheimer's, they should be killed? As the diseases progress, the people get less and less productive. They need more and more help to just live. By your statement, it seems that this is the case. Just curious if you carry that thought process in other ways.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Annee

So no mention of religion at all apart from you bringing it to the debate table.
Good to have cleared that up

Anti-abortion is mostly about religious belief whether you want to accept it or not.

YES any film about not aborting relates to religious belief.

So get off your high horse.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Annee

So no mention of religion at all apart from you bringing it to the debate table.
Good to have cleared that up

Anti-abortion is mostly about religious belief whether you want to accept it or not.

YES any film about not aborting relates to religious belief.

So get off your high horse.

My you seem emotional.
There is no mention of religion anywhere until you introduced it to the discussion.
Got anything to back up your assertion that any film about not aborting relates to religious belief, or is that just your opinion presented as fact?

I don't believe in any gods and I'm pro choice, I have a friend who doesn't believe in any gods either but is against abortion.

Of course the religious are mostly against it but that doesn't automatically equate that the film in the OP is related to religion.
You invented that.

The reality is aborting a fetus with down syndrome is increasingly common. We're controlling what's born. We've been doing that for a long time, but it increases with technology. This is eugenics, without the nazism. It's not so mcuh we're breeding for good qualities, but restricting the worst of them. It also doesn't have hte hate. Nobody hates down syndrome.

www.nytimes.com - Does Down Syndrome Justify Abortion?

That abortion is not the exception, but rather the expectation in cases of Down syndrome, is not limited to medical professionals. Though precise numbers are unavailable, at least two-thirds and as many as 90 percent of fetuses found to have Down syndrome in utero are aborted. Public opinion polls show that Americans are significantly less critical of abortion in the case of mental or physical impairment. Even the Dalai Lama says it is understandable.

Google definition of eugenics:

the science of improving a human population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics. Developed largely by Francis Galton as a method of improving the human race, it fell into disfavor only after the perversion of its doctrines by the Nazis.

originally posted by: jonnywhite
The reality is aborting a fetus with down syndrome is increasingly common. We're controlling what's born. We've been doing that for a long time, but it increases with technology. This is eugenics, without the nazism and hate.

That abortion is not the exception, but rather the expectation in cases of Down syndrome, is not limited to medical professionals. Though precise numbers are unavailable, at least two-thirds and as many as 90 percent of fetuses found to have Down syndrome in utero are aborted. Public opinion polls show that Americans are significantly less critical of abortion in the case of mental or physical impairment. Even the Dalai Lama says it is understandable.

And I support it 100%

As said, I was raised with many disabled people - - of all kinds - - including Down syndrome.

Those already LIVING need to be provided for - - by whatever means are available. And more needs to be done.

However, I would never knowingly bring a child into this world with a disability. This world is hard enough as it is.

a reply to: trollz

There's was a small group in Germany who were big on eugenics as progress oh, about 80 years ago or so... you related to them in any way, or just fans of their work?

a reply to: grainofsand

Perhaps she means that religion is a "given" when dealing with these type issues since there seems to be an overwhelming number of people who defend their stance with/through religion...not to mention conveniently using religion to condem as well.

originally posted by: Ellie Sagan
a reply to: trollz

I feel that human beings should strive towards good health and intellect rather than becoming complacent with retardation or disability.

Do you think if someone is diagnosed with multiple sclerosis or parkinson's or alzheimer's, they should be killed? As the diseases progress, the people get less and less productive. They need more and more help to just live. By your statement, it seems that this is the case. Just curious if you carry that thought process in other ways.

No I don't think they should be killed. What I'm saying is that if we can prevent children from being born with genetic disorders or major disabilities, that's a good thing. I don't understand why anyone would possibly think it's a good thing that genetic disorders or disabilities exist. If I tell you to look at a random person and then ask you "Would you prefer that this person was disabled?", what are you going to say? Obviously no. I never said disabled people should be killed, just that it would be better if people did not have to live with disabilities.
Let me give you another scenario. There's a certain medical condition where children are born without most of their brains. They live their entire lives being nothing more than a body with the most basic of physical processes... They eat whatever they're fed, they defecate, and they sleep. Imagine you have the choice to prevent children from being born like this. Would you not want to put an end to this medical condition? I think it's completely morally wrong to allow such things.
Imagine that 99% of all children were being born with this condition. Obviously people would come to the realization that something needs to be done. Look at the Zika virus, vaccines are going out so as to prevent this exact thing, and nobody is saying "Oh no, stop the vaccines, we need to allow these children to be born with major birth defects!".

Like I've said before, it might feel good to promote the birth of children with conditions such as Down Syndrome or other such disabilities, but I firmly believe it is evil and against nature itself. You can't have a world where every person has Down Syndrome or microcephaly or whatever. Humanity would end.

To conclude, let me ask you this: Why do you think pregnant women are discouraged from using drugs or alcohol or tobacco while pregnant? Do you think it's wrong for them to be discouraged from such?