French TV Bans Smiling Down Syndrome Kids - Dear Future Moms Banned As Offensive

a reply to: trollz

Hmm, if you are advocating mandatory abortions for certain conditions then consideration must be given to exactly how the abortions are enforced.
Do you not care about that issue?

Taze the women who refuse?
4 cops hold them down?

You assert you support mandatory abortion, go on, how do they get enforced in this world you support?

originally posted by: TNMockingbird
Okay, that statement makes a little more sense. So, in summary you do believe it's an individual choice.

Yes, as I said before, I think it should be up to the woman and man aside from extreme circumstances. I just feel that it would be morally egregious to choose to give birth to a child with no arms or legs, for example. In such cases as that then I would not be opposed to the idea of mandatory abortions. Obviously you have to draw a certain line there, but I'm not going to attempt to define where that line should be.

originally posted by: TNMockingbird
Once a person is born than they should be cared for equally and expect the same as the rest of the normal folks in their individual communities.

Absolutely. I think it's sick to mistreat those who are disabled or handicapped. I hate people who do such things.

originally posted by: TNMockingbird
Someone choosing to have an abortion is their individual choice and someone not choosing to is their individual choice. Folks can't and shouldn't expect others to believe or feel the same way as they do and cannot impose their feelings and beliefs onto them to make them act in accordance or alignment with their personal belief system.

If I knew someone in real life who willfully gave birth to a severely disabled child, I would never in a million years approach them and tell them that what they did was wrong. It's none of my business. In this particular format though, being an online forum where discussion is encouraged, I have every right to share my thoughts, no matter what anyone thinks of them.

originally posted by: grainofsand

You assert you support mandatory abortion, go on, how do they get enforced in this world you support?

I'd say deny government financial assistance.

Few would have enough insurance to sustain life saving treatments.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: trollz

Hmm, if you are advocating mandatory abortions for certain conditions then consideration must be given to exactly how the abortions are enforced.
Do you not care about that issue?

Taze the women who refuse?
4 cops hold them down?

You assert you support mandatory abortion, go on, how do they get enforced in this world you support?

Like I said before, I don't know, and I have no obligation to come up with a solution to your question.

@Annee & trollz

It appears one of you supports coercion then and the other supports force for abortions.
Denying health care for the born child or forcing a medical procedure to abort the pregnancy.

Okay.

-A couple of things-

People don't keep their disabled children at home in order to keep them prisoners. But the belief here is (we have beliefs about human nature too, that we all take for granted as universal, but are really just cultural..) is that a person suffers when they feel different from those around them.

They believe that the need for feeling one fits in is part of all human nature, so putting someone in situations where they will stand out or be different is cruel.

People have sympathy for disabilities here, but that's the point- Where I am from, seeing someone with a disability in public doesn't have much effect on me at all, I barely notice. Here everyone gets all big eyed and sad "Oh my god the poor thing! She is BLIND! Can you imagine how hard that must be??? " It attracts a lot of attention and sympathy.

In schools, it would be considered cruel to put a disabled child in a class with others, in which they would have trouble following the curriculum, that is considered cruel to them.

Putting the pressure on them to work and fulfil the types of civil obligations everyone else has to is considered cruel. People here are not impressed that my sister had to take the driving test 9 times, then subsequently got in 9 accidents in her first year with one. Or that she works her butt of as a bag girl at forty years old. The shake their heads and wonder why Americans like to abuse disabled people by putting such unecessary pressure on them to produce for money.

Of course, we have that belief in universal human nature that everyone WANTS to work and be productive for a boss... that's our cultural belief, that they don't know about- we think it is for them to be happy. Strange how a shift in belief systems changes everything.

But on the subject of this type of commercial- commercials which prone abortion are ALSO not allowed. Commercials which prone morals are not allowed, nor medication, lawyers..... Basically, the media is not allowed to stir the pot and turn people against each other in the name of profit.

Certain things remain personal domain, and the media is supposed to stay out of individual choices of that sort. That's all.

The choice to have a handicapped child, in this country, means the mother will never work outside the home again and will not have a social life -ever. The husband will have to work very hard, being the only income earner, and his social life will be limited to that work context. -Unless they don't love their child, in which they would send them out in the world to suffer the sympathetic reactions, being different, and having unrealistic expectations placed upon them.

I would choose to have the child anyway, but I understand those who don't choose that, and have no wish to make them feel bad. The whole "make the sinners suffer" thing is not part of their values in this culture.

originally posted by: grainofsand
@Annee & trollz

It appears one of you supports coercion then and the other supports force for abortions.
Denying health care for the born child or forcing a medical procedure to abort the pregnancy.

Okay.

Wrong.

You had a question.

I suggested an answer.

Don't try to make it more then it is.

a reply to: trollz

There's a certain medical condition where children are born without most of their brains. They live their entire lives being nothing more than a body with the most basic of physical processes... They eat whatever they're fed, they defecate, and they sleep. Imagine you have the choice to prevent children from being born like this.

This is not comparable. People with Down's Syndrome do not live an existance like that. While I agree that I would not wish it upon someone, I don't think they should be killed before they are born simply because a parent thinks it will be horrible. These ads or public service announcements, whatever they are called, simply show people that it isn't necessarily a curse. It may save lives, and yes I think life is important, even if it's not a perfect life. None of us live perfect lives and we do fine.

originally posted by: Ellie Sagan
a reply to: trollz

There's a certain medical condition where children are born without most of their brains. They live their entire lives being nothing more than a body with the most basic of physical processes... They eat whatever they're fed, they defecate, and they sleep. Imagine you have the choice to prevent children from being born like this.

This is not comparable. People with Down's Syndrome do not live an existance like that. While I agree that I would not wish it upon someone, I don't think they should be killed before they are born simply because a parent thinks it will be horrible. These ads or public service announcements, whatever they are called, simply show people that it isn't necessarily a curse. It may save lives, and yes I think life is important, even if it's not a perfect life. None of us live perfect lives and we do fine.

Good point.

My wife teaches and one of her class has downs. He has friends, joins in with everything and is generally a happy and well liked little kid.

There's going to be a little bit of him that the others carry with them for their whole lives after school, so he will have had a positive impact upon the lives of those around him. If nothing else that's a good enough reason not to force people into abortions, even leaving aside the other stuff.

I don't think it should be banned because it might be offensive...but I have a problem with it being seriously unrealistic. Every individual in that video was really high functioning. The reality is, you may end up with a child like this:

(this clip is actually autism but the chance of comorbidity is as high as 10%)

(again autism)

This kid has Downs and autism. His mom is very happy that at 11 years old he's able to sit in a park with her and eat french fries.

There aren't really any videos of older people with severe Downs having outbursts on YouTube. Probably because most of them are in state schools (institutions) or their families don't want to post such things online.

If a pregnant woman finds out her fetus will have Down Syndrome it is her decision if this is something she thinks she can handle. If she chooses to accept that challenge and have it....great. If not, no one should judge her. Because prenatal tests only show if Down Syndrome is there they can not detect the severity.

If you're really trying to educate people about Down Syndrome it's kind of BS to only show happy, high functioning individuals and completely leave off all the other- much more difficult- possibilities.

originally posted by: TNMockingbird

Those days are not gone, though. At least not entirely.

My daughter recently began babysitting for a woman whose child has Downs. Her purpose for being there, along with teaching basics like colors sounds walking and such, is so that the mother can go out in the community running errands and what not without the child.
She, the child, apparently goes out rarely, if ever.

My daughter and I have discussed her working toward the goal of the mother allowing her to go do 'activities' in the community with her. Integration, IMO, is very important for the disabled individual, for their development and ours.

My kids have no developmental issues whatsoever and I would friggin LOVE to run errands without them. It's a pain in the ass to do things with kids throwing fits, tearing stuff up, etc. Don't assume that the girl is being 'hidden away' because of her condition. The mom deserves a break.

Just FYI the commercial was produced for WDSD (World Down Syndrome Day) by Down Syndrome International. This link goes straight to their Board of Trustees. I read all the biographies and none of them mention religion. Most of them are parents of kids with Down Syndrome.

So...this commercial is NOT religiously motivated.

BUT, as I said before the commercial is disingenuous. It's only showing HIGHLY functioning individuals and that's just not reality. They're purposely not showing low functioning, violent, severely autistic or severe physical health problems that often come along with the diagnosis of Downs.

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

I understand what you are saying but, when the only place that a three year old has gone in the community is to Dr. appointments....it is, in my opinion, sad.

That's my opinion. It's good to try and teach her to walk/talk,etc. around the house but, there may be more learning experiences in the community than in the home.

I'm not assuming anything, just repeating what I was told and I certainly don't blame her for needing a break. I just hope that she allows my daughter to take the young girl out. I wasn't judging the mother for not taking her out, I was stating that the girl never going out, regardless of who takes her, was not good, IMO.

a reply to: TNMockingbird

I agree that people (kids AND adults) with disabilities and mental retardation should be exposed to the public and the outside world. And I've seen state school 'field trips' to the store with folks like this. Of course you can hear them moaning and screaming all through the store and the staff is constantly trying to stop them from hitting and tearing things up. But at least they're trying to get them out and about. And I used to work in a hospital, we'd sometimes get people from the nearby state school. They were often starved for attention. One sweet guy sat there and talked my ear off while I was charting. They are, after all, human and humans are social creatures.

But being a mom is hard work. Taking kids out in public is a pain in the ass. And if you're the parent of a disabled kid all that stress is magnified. Even with 'normal' kids....if my mom babysits for me, I'm out the door like Usain Bolt! Lol!

a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

Haha!

I completely get it!

Having been a mom to two girls and a mom to 5 teenagers at once (three boys), for many years...a break was sometimes welcome...no...scratch that...it was necessary.

I've worked with the population of developmentally and intellectually disabled adults for almost 8 years now so, it is a subject that is near and dear to my heart.

I can become quite passionate and perhaps at times come across as snarky, that is not my intention.

I have been in the community with folks and seen the looks and sneers and heard the whispers but I wonder how the community will ever become accepting and tolerant of all sorts of folk's differences and such if they are never exposed to the population.

Shout out to the good staff who choose supporting these individuals as a career, I can assure people that the direct support staff are not in it for the money.

I can't imagine a life where the only contact be it intimate conversations or hugs or just simple basic caring/nurturing I receive is from someone being paid to give it.

But, thank gosh those folks are there.

*to clarify I haven't worked in 'direct support' in a few years, my duties are different today.

a reply to: TNMockingbird

Oh I don't think you're snarky at all! And it's really good that you care so much about these individuals, God knows they need it.

I think that if a mother chooses to have a baby with deformities or retardation, then bless her heart and she should have the social support to help her do that. And every effort should be made to take the best care of that baby for as long as it is alive.

I also think people should check their judgement of women who choose to abort. They know their limits, and their self awareness should be respected.

And this commercial is great and I support the message, but.....for every smiling, high functioning Downs individual they show, they should also include one crapping themselves and smearing it on the wall and physically assaulting anyone trying to stop them or clean it up. If you're really trying to inform people, you have to be unbiased. This commercial is a serious bait and switch.

* And hopefully folks realize I'm not trying to be hateful or mean about people with severe developmental issues. I'm speaking from experience. I've taken care of them. I've been very kind and attentive to them....but I've also had to clean feces off walls and I've been physically assaulted by them as well. If we're going to discuss reality, let's be real about it.

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
Just FYI the commercial was produced for WDSD (World Down Syndrome Day) by Down Syndrome International. This link goes straight to their Board of Trustees. I read all the biographies and none of them mention religion. Most of them are parents of kids with Down Syndrome.

So...this commercial is NOT religiously motivated.

BUT, as I said before the commercial is disingenuous. It's only showing HIGHLY functioning individuals and that's just not reality. They're purposely not showing low functioning, violent, severely autistic or severe physical health problems that often come along with the diagnosis of Downs.

I did all that research too.

Still stands though, that religious belief is the main proponent against abortion - - for any reason.

And shaming the mother for choosing abortion is in the article - - as part of the reason to ban this film.

a reply to: Annee

Annee, I think that religion is not so much behind anti-abortion as it once was. Perhaps it was at one time, and people that hated religion thought getting an abortion was doing something against religion and being okay about it.

But, I know too many people that don't have a religious bone in their body that hate abortion as much as any religious person. I think a more contemplative society has emerged and some people just instinctively know that snuffing out an emerging life, especially one that has quickened, is just plain immoral.

originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie

But being a mom is hard work. Taking kids out in public is a pain in the ass. And if you're the parent of a disabled kid all that stress is magnified. Even with 'normal' kids....if my mom babysits for me, I'm out the door like Usain Bolt! Lol!

I'm raising a high functioning Autism Spectrum 9 year old boy.

Its kind of the opposite of what most people think of Autism. He's highly intelligent, very active brain, talks almost none stop, moves almost none stop, but is only interested in what's going on in his own head. Very difficult to have a real conversation with him on a subject of my choosing (required therapy).

He's mainstreamed in school, and does pretty good - - - as he was in behavior modification since age 3. He may even be more focused then some kids because of early training.

The good thing is he is always happy and funny. I take him to the mall - - he sings and dances through the mall and talks to people, will engage store clerks in all kinds of questions about their products, and likes to hug people.

It can be really hilarious - - but, definitely exhausting. I make a list of what I need and need to do - - otherwise I'd never get anything accomplished.

originally posted by: queenofswords
a reply to: Annee

Annee, I think that religion is not so much behind anti-abortion as it once was. Perhaps it was at one time, and people that hated religion thought getting an abortion was doing something against religion and being okay about it.

But, I know too many people that don't have a religious bone in their body that hate abortion as much as any religious person. I think a more contemplative society has emerged and some people just instinctively know that snuffing out an emerging life, especially one that has quickened, is just plain immoral.

There are a lot of religious people today that support Right of Choice. Even if its not the right choice for them.

Yes, there are also some non-religious people who are anti-abortion. Even some atheists.

BUT - - religious belief is still the #1 group behind anti-abortion activism.

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Please, I do not want this to turn into an abortion thread.

But, shaming women for making that choice was part of the article - - and part of the reason for banning the film.