Disturbing Line In The National Anthem I wished I Didn't Know About:

originally posted by: crazyewok
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

And who pays for that?

Maybe we only bomb half as many people in foreign countries, and its cost neutral?

Or maybe we just spend the current money in smarter ways. I mean, a big problem is that poor people don't see their house as an investment, so don't protect it as such. So who says we keep putting money into that? Maybe, instead, the answer is to improve the value of the dollars that are alredy in circulation? Kil a thousand birds with one stone.

Plus provideing crappy houseing to the poor is not a race issue but a issue for the poor in general.

In the US, there is only one group that is living in ghettos, and completely losing the notion of a nuclear family. In fact, when you look at the free public housing, its pretty clear who is getting the shaft.

Yes, all people have poor. But not all people have poor, and are so sick of it they burn down their own neighborhood. We can call them names....but it won't stop the behavior. Instead, we should try to figure out what allows it to fester to such a point, and do something about that.

a reply to: Spider879

Setting the article aside, do a bit of very basic reading on the event that was being documented in song by Key.

Why, do you think, would he suddenly switch from singing about the defense of Fort McHenry to a racist attack on non-present people of color? Does that make sense to you?

Let's zoom back just a scosh and look at the surround...

"And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave"

Now, with some context, what is he singing about there? Remember, the song is about the siege of Fort McHenry. That's all the bombs bursting stuff. Here, he's asking basically 'So, where are all you smack talkers who said you were going to kick our asses? Your blood washed out your bootprints. Nothing could save you from us"

Here, 'hireling and slave' was referring to the British troops. They liked to beef up their ranks with mercenaries (thus Hessians) and impressment, which was basically grabbing you off the street and forcing you to serve in the military as a sort of slave soldier. The British in this period were the Kings of Press Gangs, and they just LOVED to snatch Irish people.

a reply to: DISRAELI

It's possible that you may have misunderstood me.

If so, you have yourself to blame.

What you typed was ‘I would interpret it as...’ What you meant was ‘The lyricist interpreted it as...’

a reply to: ketsuko

And can you prove that slaves in those days were only and always black and that blacks were only and always slaves?

Right, another one outing herself. This is an amazingly useful thread. I’m making a list.

a reply to: pteridine

You might consider occasionally reading something about history before making such statements.
"The United States declared war for several reasons, including ... the impressment of as many as 10,000 American merchant sailors into the Royal Navy"

Fiddlesticks.

This was an excuse for the declaration of war. US propaganda, nothing more. Now, of course, accepted as gospel by nationalistic Americans, despite the wildly varying figures given for impressment by various ‘authoritative’ sources (5,000? 10,000? 15,000? Hell, why not make it a million?)

Show me independent verification of this claim from any respectable non-American source. You can’t.

And anyway,

No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave

You saying that the American national anthem vows to kill American citizens enslaved by other powers.

Pull the other one, it's got the Liberty Bell on it.

originally posted by: Astyanax
What you typed was ‘I would interpret it as...’ What you meant was ‘The lyricist interpreted it as...’

No, what I meant was "I would interpret the statement of the lyricist as". That is exactly what we've all been doing.

a reply to: Spider879

The slaves in the British colonies were not simply black Africans. His main point of reference was to the British tactic of kidnapping American sailors and forcing them into impressment on British vessels of war during the War of 1812.

By slave he is also speaking of the British white Irish slaves whose story and plight is largely unknown by today's U.S. Americans.

a reply to: Astyanax

What a ridiculous extremist view. Quite unseemly and offensive. Such barbaric detachment from his environment, you are a savage man. Congratulations, all Chinese people throughout history now hate you.

Easily refuted:
"Nonsense. Liking one country does not equal hating another, just like preferring strawberry does not mean hating vanilla."

You are so very confused, but your thoughts and your words have that dangerously subversive secular edge to them. You are pushing the boundaries of politeness now, dangerous, watch it pal. Don't rock the boat like this!

a reply to: TheLaughingGod

Don't rock the boat like this!

What boat ?...you have already ousted yourself as the ignorant hating type....wtf... really tou are now going to try and take the moral high ground......good luck with that

a reply to: crazyewok

The Black community does use it as a excuse for crime, poverty and general failure in life even though billions upon billions has been piled into the community througy welfare and social programs.

Life is like a box of chocolates....all this time reading your posts i had no idea you were actually this dense....color me confused....

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: pteridine

You might consider occasionally reading something about history before making such statements.
"The United States declared war for several reasons, including ... the impressment of as many as 10,000 American merchant sailors into the Royal Navy"

Fiddlesticks.

This was an excuse for the declaration of war. US propaganda, nothing more. Now, of course, accepted as gospel by nationalistic Americans, despite the wildly varying figures given for impressment by various ‘authoritative’ sources (5,000? 10,000? 15,000? Hell, why not make it a million?)

Show me independent verification of this claim from any respectable non-American source. You can’t.

And anyway,

No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave

You saying that the American national anthem vows to kill American citizens enslaved by other powers.

Pull the other one, it's got the Liberty Bell on it.

Scrambling a bit, are we? You claim that it was just an excuse for a sparsely populated country to go to war with the dominant sea power of the time and now demand 'proof' that US merchant sailors were impressed into the British navy. You, of course, will define 'respectable source' so as to exclude all that you disagree with.
See posts above for the context of the lyrics; it was about bombardment of Ft. McHenry during the successful defense of Baltimore harbor.

a reply to: pteridine

Scrambling a bit, are we?

Couldn’t find a reliable source, could you?

You claim that it was just an excuse for a sparsely populated country to go to war with the dominant sea power of the time

Never claimed anything of the kind. Read the thread.

you now demand 'proof' that US merchant sailors were impressed into the British navy.

Yes, let’s see it. Because in 1810, at the height of the Napoleonic Wars, any English-speaking sailor who was press-ganged would claim, regardless of nationality, that he was American. So as to avoid being press-ganged. American propagandists took these claims, exaggerated and inflated them into the impressment of a wave of actual American sailors, and modern American apologists bow take their cue from them. This is a highly dubious and controversial claim. Your proof, please.

You, of course, will define 'respectable source' so as to exclude all that you disagree with.

Kindly do not judge me by your own patriotic standards.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

But not all people have poor, and are so sick of it they burn down their own neighborhood.

Here is the thing.....if there logical train of thought to get better homes is to burn down and trash there own homes then to me they are beyond saving.


Thats like me not likly my job so beating the boss up and burning the lab down. All it does is get me fired, a bad refrence and a criminal record that prevents me gtting future jobs.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

But not all people have poor, and are so sick of it they burn down their own neighborhood.

Here is the thing.....if there logical train of thought to get better homes is to burn down and trash there own homes then to me they are beyond saving.

That's not the logic at all. The logic is, "We are isolated here in this urban misery...and we didn't pay for this to begin with so have no notion of what "ownership" really means".

If you go out and pay for your car, then put in your 40 a week to pay for its maintenance/improvement, you have an investment that you feel has value. And you treat it accordingly.

But "free housing"? It comes to be seen as a backhanded gift. "Sure, give me free housing. Put me where other people get free housing, next to the felons and child molesters. Then tie school funding to property values, and watch all of us melt down entirely".

The first rule of logic: you have to be taught what is and is not good logic. I wasn't raised in an inner city. My "ghetto" was the country, where we were all poor. We didn't learn good logic in our schools, either. The man you are talking to today is a man who had something these people didn't have: an opportunity to interact with people outside my little world.

And thats the real key here.

Thats like me not likly my job so beating the boss up and burning the lab down. All it does is get me fired, a bad refrence and a criminal record that prevents me gtting future jobs.

You have invested in your job, obviously. Put in some time, gotten some rewards from it. Or you realize that without your job there is no safety net. Now imagine not having any of that. You show up to be treated like crap hammering on tire treads for 8 hours. Or flip burgers. Or fetch carts from the parking lot all summer. Point being, imagine having a job that is just as miserable as your prospect of poverty. And the dollars you make today...worthless 2 years from now. WHich im going to stop at, to prevent a whole nuther rant on the bastards devaluing our currency.

Point being: to you and I, who have built something in our life and made investments in our future....it seems illogical. Pull yourself out of that situation, and try to see it from a different perspective. One where you never get to see the stars outside of the urban glare because you have no mobility to get there. One where hearing the crickets all night is as foreign as me hearing sirens all night would be.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: pteridine

Scrambling a bit, are we?

Couldn’t find a reliable source, could you?

You claim that it was just an excuse for a sparsely populated country to go to war with the dominant sea power of the time

Never claimed anything of the kind. Read the thread.

you now demand 'proof' that US merchant sailors were impressed into the British navy.

Yes, let’s see it. Because in 1810, at the height of the Napoleonic Wars, any English-speaking sailor who was press-ganged would claim, regardless of nationality, that he was American. So as to avoid being press-ganged. American propagandists took these claims, exaggerated and inflated them into the impressment of a wave of actual American sailors, and modern American apologists bow take their cue from them. This is a highly dubious and controversial claim. Your proof, please.

You, of course, will define 'respectable source' so as to exclude all that you disagree with.

Kindly do not judge me by your own patriotic standards.

From your post: "This was an excuse for the declaration of war. US propaganda, nothing more. Now, of course, accepted as gospel by nationalistic Americans, despite the wildly varying figures given for impressment by various ‘authoritative’ sources (5,000? 10,000? 15,000? Hell, why not make it a million?)"
Read what you wrote and try again.

You now claim that any English speaking sailor, regardless of nationality, would claim that he was American to avoid being impressed into service. How many sailors, who were not already part of the British empire, do you believe spoke English or some dialect? Do you think that any US citizens were pressed into service or were all those caught up just pretending to be from the US?

My posted location, the chrono-synclastic infundibulum, has no patriotic standards but this link may entertain you. www.youtube.com...

a reply to: Bedlam

Here, 'hireling and slave' was referring to the British troops. They liked to beef up their ranks with mercenaries (thus Hessians) and impressment, which was basically grabbing you off the street and forcing you to serve in the military as a sort of slave soldier. The British in this period were the Kings of Press Gangs, and they just LOVED to snatch Irish people.

Points taken, however in a wider context , Blacks or any near slaves would likely be seen as potential or real intestine enemies, would be in my view be included , especially since many choose to take personal freedom over the planter /slave holding class interest.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Nonsense. Just refuting his obvious lie.

a reply to: pteridine

The actual reason for the declaration of war was that the US wanted to expand its political and trade influence with the help of Napoleon, and Britain wouldn’t let it. So yes, the ‘impressment’ was an excuse.

How many sailors, who were not already part of the British empire, do you believe spoke English or some dialect?

That is precisely the point. And every one of those sailors who were part of the British Empire, when impressed, would claim to be American (and hence immune to impressment) if he thought he could make it stick. No doubt a few Americans were pulled in along with them.

I must say it makes perfect sense that you pretend to live in a place that doesn’t exist. Not very well up on history or the nature of human behaviour, are you?

originally posted by: Spider879
Blacks or any near slaves would likely be seen as potential or real intestine enemies, would be in my view be included , especially since many choose to take personal freedom over the planter /slave holding class interest.

It's got nothing to do with the song, though. At all.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: pteridine

The actual reason for the declaration of war was that the US wanted to expand its political and trade influence with the help of Napoleon, and Britain wouldn’t let it. So yes, the ‘impressment’ was an excuse.

How many sailors, who were not already part of the British empire, do you believe spoke English or some dialect?

That is precisely the point. And every one of those sailors who were part of the British Empire, when impressed, would claim to be American (and hence immune to impressment) if he thought he could make it stick. No doubt a few Americans were pulled in along with them.

I must say it makes perfect sense that you pretend to live in a place that doesn’t exist. Not very well up on history or the nature of human behaviour, are you?

Ah, so the British captured their own people in an a form of surprise conscription. I wonder if the treaty of Ghent would have been upheld had the British taken New Orleans. Given the perfidy of the crowned heads of state, I doubt it.
Fortunately, the Brits were defeated at New Orleans and did not bother to invade us again until the early 1960's.

War with the French was a long-time British hobby and had to do with all those claims and counterclaims of who was king of what ever since the language of the British court was French, and not English. Mon Dieu, le roi est un Français!Interestingly, a driving force for the Brits was potassium nitrate, a necessity for killing Frenchmen after the longbow era and the quest made for some interesting times, q.v., Petermen. At the time of the conquest of India, it was found in large quantity in the mud of the Ganges which was a reason that India was initially so important.

I am actually a student of human behavior. My take on you is that you are annoyed with those who don't know as much as you think you do. You wish to correct the world's misunderstandings of history, especially British history. As you know, the victor writes history, which is why you disagree with the US version of the war of 1812.