Faith vs. Works in Christianity: The Problem of the Book of James

The two go hand in hand. If you have faith, it'll be evident in your works. That is why when you read John 3:16 it says "those exercising faith." The word 'exercise' implies actions or 'works.' End of thread. a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
from the old testament: insincere sacrifice is an abomination to the lord. the sacrifice of an insincere man makes God feel as if he has just witnessed a man snap a dog's neck or bless an idol.

You're surely not trying to claim to knoe what 'God feels' are You?

Å99

no. God makes it clear. like a man who eats pork is like smoke in his eye.

Well, I've been a vego for 30 years, so I'm good under any law...including the one that says thou shalt not kill

Å99

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: stormbringer1701

lol what?

So Im guessing you don't eat pork?

actually i am pretty sure that the passage would be more understandable with (Jewish) before the word man. On the other hand if that is how he feels in general about eating pork then most Christians are in trouble. Mainstream interpretation of Peter's vision not withstanding. For Jews eating pork is a religious law sin. for anyone else it is a health law sin. a sin against one's self. One thing for sure if we are allowed to eat pork it does not stem from Peter's vision but from the fact that Christians are not bound by Jewish ritual cleanliness laws and ordinances because we (most of us) were never Jews and were never bound by that law to begin with.

It's in Isaiah Where God is about to put the beat down on the rebellious Jews:

A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

So...

Is that a "NO I don't eat pork"...

You know pork is actually considered a very healthy meat... much leaner then beef

Good thing im not Christian I guess... I got a pork roast on the spit as we speak

Though I suppose Jesus saying meat is clean means nothing

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

It is like the widows mite,

There are those who outwardly show their works or deeds and their reward is an earthly one, then there are those that silently give from the heart, not wanting admiration from god or man, but out of a pure heart full of unselfish compassion, not giving their generosity a second thought.

Like I posted earlier about the good Samaritan,

youtu.be...

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: stormbringer1701

lol what?

So Im guessing you don't eat pork?

actually i am pretty sure that the passage would be more understandable with (Jewish) before the word man. On the other hand if that is how he feels in general about eating pork then most Christians are in trouble. Mainstream interpretation of Peter's vision not withstanding. For Jews eating pork is a religious law sin. for anyone else it is a health law sin. a sin against one's self. One thing for sure if we are allowed to eat pork it does not stem from Peter's vision but from the fact that Christians are not bound by Jewish ritual cleanliness laws and ordinances because we (most of us) were never Jews and were never bound by that law to begin with.

It's in Isaiah Where God is about to put the beat down on the rebellious Jews:

A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick;

4 Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;

5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

So...

Is that a "NO I don't eat pork"...

You know pork is actually considered a very healthy meat... much leaner then beef

Good thing im not Christian I guess... I got a pork roast on the spit as we speak

Though I suppose Jesus saying meat is clean means nothing

Jesus indicate a lot of things were allowed. not sure pig was one of them. I do know he never violated one jot or title of the actual law. but there are laws ordinances and statutes in the Torah. it is a distinction that can be made. this is why a christian even though he or she may not understand it; can say in one breath Jesus did away with the law and in the next can say but he didn't. Jesus did say it's not what a man puts into his mouth that defiles him it is what comes out of it because what comes out procedes from his heart but what he puts into his mouth comes out in the latrine. (or words to that effect.)

On the other hand there are things that God just did not want to see done. For example he forbid that a lamb should be boiled in it's own mothers milk because this is a perversion of the natural order between mothers and their young he created. There is nothing unhealthy about it; you know, other than getting on god's S- list. Swine are in some ways unhealthy for us but the tissue is so similar that pig hearts (for example) will work properly if implanted in a human body.

Another bit of lore; there are some animals God just wanted protected. A stork is listed as an unclean animal so it is not Kosher. but the Jews believe that the stork is favored by God and that Storks always sense the presence of the holy spirit and turn to face it without fail.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

Well...

this "god" said a lot of silly things that people should not follow

especially since its so damn delicious

Eating pork hardly tops that list though

a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

I've never bought into the belief a lot of people seem to have, that "all you need" is Faith. Typically that seems to come from those who primarily identify as "Born Again" and put forth a statement of faith, where all you have to do is say the words and you're good to go. I wish I had the biblical knowledge BELIEVERPriest has, but since I don't, I'll just point up and say, "what he said."

In my opinion, what some people miss with "faith not works" is that Faith should lead to works "naturally." It shouldn't lead to a habit of bad, and a lifestyle of "no consequences" because you already "took the oath."

Well so far as James and faith without works is dead stuff its actually pretty easy to parse.

All James is saying is that without works you might as well not have faith, for all the good it does OTHER people.

James 2:14-16
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that?

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman
If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved". But wait...what about the book of James that seems to say that faith is not sufficient, that works also are needed for salvation.

I realize this subject has been debated for centuries. If you wish to comment, please cite evidence for why you believe the way you do.

Many people believe the book of James was written before the book of Acts...One might notice that contrary to the Pauline epistles that were written to the churches, James is addressed to the 12 Tribes of Israel...

Any bible reader who is honest will admit that the 4 gospel accounts were written to and for the Jews...Gentiles were excluded...The disciple were told to stay away from Gentile areas...

An honest person will also admit that Jesus was a Jew, raised under the Law and that what he taught was a combination of faith and those works under the Law...So in the book of James, written to those Jews are doctrines of faith and works...Even up to the 2nd book of Romans people were taught that justification was from works...In Romans 3 is the phrase, 'BUT NOW'...A big change took place in doctrine...At that point a Christian was justified by faith only...No works of the Law...

So it goes from James into the book of Acts...Acts is a transition book...It starts out with Jews under the Law and ends with Gentiles under Grace...Salvation by Grace thru Faith without works is revealed first to the Apostle Paul...Long after the book of James was written...

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman
If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved". But wait...what about the book of James that seems to say that faith is not sufficient, that works also are needed for salvation.

I realize this subject has been debated for centuries. If you wish to comment, please cite evidence for why you believe the way you do.

Obviously 'the word of God' contradicts itself...otherwise no-one would be asking/interpreting what the difference might mean...

Å99

It really doesn't contradict itself...What the problem is, is that different parts of the New Testament were written to different groups of people...What applies to one group doesn't apply to another...

originally posted by: Ghost147
As an Atheist, my opinion is probably less weighted.

However, if the christian god were as divinely loving as many claim for him to be, I would say that faith need not apply to be granted access to heaven. Simply making an honest effort at being kind, giving, fair, loving, and with a lack of prejudice to all of humanity, those qualities would likely be the ticket to heaven.

I don't see why a loving god would send a baby to hell simply because it didn't have enough time here on earth to make a conscious decision to follow a faith in Christianity.

I don't see why a loving god would send a person born in a geographical location where christianity wasn't existent, or at least populous, to hell simply because they were born in an area where christianity wasn't readily available.

I don't see why a loving god would send a nonbeliever, or a follower of another faith to hell, despite that individual being honest, kind, fair, giving, loving, and holding no prejudice with the sole reason being that they did not believe he existed.

Not everyone on earth is given an equal chance to follow christianity, an intelligent, all knowing, all powerful, forgiving, loving god wouldn't have those traits if faith was the only thing needed to access heaven.

Furthermore, I also don't see why a loving god would consider any action here on Earth, carried out by a being who's lifespan is more than likely less than 80 years, to equate to an infinite, endless, eternity's worth of pain and suffering after they were to die to be a suitable punishment.

Why would a loving, caring, forgiving god even create a hell in the first place?

Just my thoughts.

That's why God gave us the bible...So we would learn the answers to these questions...While God is a God of Love, he is a God to be feared by those who reject him...And no, babies do not go to Hell...That is mythology put out by the Catholic religion...

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Ghost147

Why would a that God also welcome in those who hate Him?

Where did you get a crazy idea like that???

originally posted by: Iscool
he is a God to be feared by those who reject him...

Well, I don't reject god, because I don't believe he exists. So what would make me fear a being I don't believe exists?

The bible is a pretty poor way at understanding just about anything in christianity when we can trace the majority of their stories from older religions, and when The Vatican withholds scriptures and whole books that are supposed to be in the bible from the public.

originally posted by: Iscool

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman
If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved". But wait...what about the book of James that seems to say that faith is not sufficient, that works also are needed for salvation.

I realize this subject has been debated for centuries. If you wish to comment, please cite evidence for why you believe the way you do.

Obviously 'the word of God' contradicts itself...otherwise no-one would be asking/interpreting what the difference might mean...

Å99

It really doesn't contradict itself...What the problem is, is that different parts of the New Testament were written to different groups of people...What applies to one group doesn't apply to another...

It really does contradict itself...and there wouldn't be a 'problem' if the supernatural accredited channellings, purportedly coming from God himself, had not been (and continue to be) explained in ways that make it no less contradictory and apologetic, as if those trying to explain it were receiving tutelage from God itself...the hallmark of good design is broad understanding - like a road traffic stop sign that is pretty well, a universally recognised symbol - the little golden book continues to be a confused tome that its adherents feel the self-conferred, God-given right to bog with addendum after addendum...I'm informed that that the path is not paved by discussing the to's and fro's of whether, or if, the concept is one or the other...because the more you talk about it, the less time you have to actually do it...so, the conceptual niceties of noodling the brain do not 'build' anything of any consequence...the human experience, is exactly THAT - an experience, not a conceptual realisation...otherwise there would be no need for the 3D carapace...

Å99

originally posted by: akushla99

Obviously 'the word of God' contradicts itself...otherwise no-one would be asking/interpreting what the difference might mean...

Å99

A very simply and honest truth you've just spoken. One which I always thought should have more of an impact upon those who believe in anything which requires so much debate. But it doesn't seem to matter much to people for some reason.

Which is strange because in almost every other situation people demand a sure answer. They require a clear well grounded understanding of something before they'll trust it. They are usually at least somewhat careful about the things they choose. They look for the best prices. They shop around. They watch out for con men so they don't get screwed. That kind of thing.

Yet with Religion they just seem to say, "Ok. So it doesn't exactly make sense and seems contradictory and no two people ever seem to see it the same way and I have more questions than answers. But what the hell, I'm all in."

It's like they're weary of something that might be correct or incorrect and are careful to a point. But if you push beyond that, if you turn logic and reality completely in reverse and tell twist all reason on it's head they'll go for it without question. Something seems a bit off and they'll say no way. But show them something that nobody can agree on and they can't wait to be a part of it.

So weird. But maybe it's just me??

originally posted by: mOjOm

originally posted by: akushla99

Obviously 'the word of God' contradicts itself...otherwise no-one would be asking/interpreting what the difference might mean...

Å99

A very simply and honest truth you've just spoken. One which I always thought should have more of an impact upon those who believe in anything which requires so much debate. But it doesn't seem to matter much to people for some reason.

Which is strange because in almost every other situation people demand a sure answer. They require a clear well grounded understanding of something before they'll trust it. They are usually at least somewhat careful about the things they choose. They look for the best prices. They shop around. They watch out for con men so they don't get screwed. That kind of thing.

Yet with Religion they just seem to say, "Ok. So it doesn't exactly make sense and seems contradictory and no two people ever seem to see it the same way and I have more questions than answers. But what the hell, I'm all in."

It's like they're weary of something that might be correct or incorrect and are careful to a point. But if you push beyond that, if you turn logic and reality completely in reverse and tell twist all reason on it's head they'll go for it without question. Something seems a bit off and they'll say no way. But show them something that nobody can agree on and they can't wait to be a part of it.

So weird. But maybe it's just me??

the bible does not require debate. skeptics think it does. ultimately each person is responsible for whether they accept salvation or not. All Christ required is share the gospel once and if it is rejected move on. but remember no one will be able to say they did not have a chance to know the gospel on judgement day. God will make sure everyone can be held accountable fairly either in life or in the millennium. And everyone will be held to account.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

Ok, but that's you're version. I'm sorry to have to tell you but there are about a billion other versions that vary slightly to completely with your version and every one of them and you all think your version is the correct one.

If you don't think it's debatable then why are there so many versions of just Christianity for example??? Even within those no two churches teach it the same way or believe the same way. No two people believe it the same either. Sure, in general or on the surface they might. But sit them down and ask them to explain in more detail and you'll find that even they don't agree on everything either.

Plus, with all the confusion don't you think God, knowing that such confusion is happening and all the death and suffering it has caused over time might think to drop by and clear things up a bit???

I mean, 2000 years and language problems and culture issues and all that you'd think an all knowing and loving entity might realize some stuff might have gone a bit off track and needs some help or something. I mean is that really too much to ask of an all powerful God??? Can he even be too busy or whatever??? Let's get real here.

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: Iscool
he is a God to be feared by those who reject him...

Well, I don't reject god, because I don't believe he exists. So what would make me fear a being I don't believe exists?

The bible is a pretty poor way at understanding just about anything in christianity when we can trace the majority of their stories from older religions, and when The Vatican withholds scriptures and whole books that are supposed to be in the bible from the public.

I do not think you know what you are talking about..... no disrespect BUT hopefully you know that Zeitgiest has been debunked.... you know this right? Take any of those old myths and you will see that those old stories EACH ONE has a twist of deceit and additional info was incerted into the story. Do your own research and stop relying on liars who attempt to destroy God's word with cheap deception to lead believers down the wrong path by putting doubt into God's word.

Here is a Youtube video debunking Zeitgeist. Everyone who believes God and Jesus is a myth should watch this:



This is not the thread to discuss in detail those myths you speak of because it would derail this thread BUT you are wrong and you are living a lie.

P.S. And to those who think they will wait to believe in God AFTER he shows himself and if Jesus is true..... well once God does show himself to the world you can not change your mind at that point..... no matter who you are..... you will be an unbeliever and marked as one.

So what is the reward for an unbeliever? Eternal death ....... meanwhile those believers in your family live on......

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Here is a Youtube video debunking Zeitgeist. Everyone who believes God and Jesus is a myth should watch this:

So, you've now resorted to copy and pasting your responses and spamming them across multiple threads? Well... here's what I wrote to this exact comment you made on another thread:

If you're going to make a point, I suggest not simply posting a 2 hour long video with absolutely no summary of it what so ever and simply demanding the opposition to watch it.

Sorry, But I'm not about to waste 2 hours of my life on a position you claim is absolute, yet don't even care to go in depth with within your post.

originally posted by: Ghost147

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Here is a Youtube video debunking Zeitgeist. Everyone who believes God and Jesus is a myth should watch this:

So, you've now resorted to copy and pasting your responses and spamming them across multiple threads? Well... here's what I wrote to this exact comment you made on another thread:

If you're going to make a point, I suggest not simply posting a 2 hour long video with absolutely no summary of it what so ever and simply demanding the opposition to watch it.

Sorry, But I'm not about to waste 2 hours of my life on a position you claim is absolute, yet don't even care to go in depth with within your post.

Both threads that you posted in required my exact comments based upon your comments made on both threads which answered your lies.

Again here we have someone who does not want to know the truth because he/she is not willing to know the truth which tells me you have an agenda to your posts in religious forums.

Go ahead and stay in your comfort zone and remain delusional ..... it is your life and you have free will to live it out as you wish but I recommend you learn the facts before spewing out total lies.