Faith vs. Works in Christianity: The Problem of the Book of James

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Again here we have someone who does not want to know the truth because he/she is not willing to know the truth which tells me you have an agenda to your posts in religious forums.

It has nothing to do with embracing or denying ignorance, my response to your response is that your response is an illogical way to prove a point.

You have provided no information on the video at hand except that it 'undoubtedly disproves my lies'. if the video was 5 minutes long, I would watch it, but it isn't, it's over 120 minutes long and you've given me nothing to entice me to spend 2 hours of my life watching what very likely is a total waste of time.

You have summarized none of its information, you have yet to present anything in response to my information other than "it's lies", you have spouted claims that are totally unfounded and can only stem from personal perspective, without backing up your information. So why would I waste my time on a 2 hour long video?

originally posted by: DeathSlayer
Go ahead and stay in your comfort zone and remain delusional ..... it is your life and you have free will to live it out as you wish but I recommend you learn the facts before spewing out total lies.

If my information is simply 'total lies' then directly address each claim and cite your information with a reputable source. If you're going to engage in a debate, you don't simply say "you're lying, read this 10,000 page book, it shows how you're lying", you directly address the points made.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

the bible does not require debate. skeptics think it does.

Oh but it SOOO does...

There wouldn't be skeptics if it didn't require debate... especially a 2000 year debate

originally posted by: mOjOm
a reply to: stormbringer1701

Ok, but that's you're version. I'm sorry to have to tell you but there are about a billion other versions that vary slightly to completely with your version and every one of them and you all think your version is the correct one.

If you don't think it's debatable then why are there so many versions of just Christianity for example??? Even within those no two churches teach it the same way or believe the same way. No two people believe it the same either. Sure, in general or on the surface they might. But sit them down and ask them to explain in more detail and you'll find that even they don't agree on everything either.

Plus, with all the confusion don't you think God, knowing that such confusion is happening and all the death and suffering it has caused over time might think to drop by and clear things up a bit???

I mean, 2000 years and language problems and culture issues and all that you'd think an all knowing and loving entity might realize some stuff might have gone a bit off track and needs some help or something. I mean is that really too much to ask of an all powerful God??? Can he even be too busy or whatever??? Let's get real here.

Like the apostle john addressed his audience, the bible relates things at three levels of understanding. entry level or baby level is all that is necessary to obtain salvation but there is an intermediate level and an master level. So long as the entry level is sufficient there is no need to agree on the finer levels of understanding. Everyone enters the Word of God as a baby. many stay at that level and never even notice there are questions opened by the basic reading of it. but for those that take the time and effort many mysteries are unlocked to those that are mature in the word.

Most sitting in the pews do not even notice that Genesis has Adam being made on two different "days" just one chapter apart. Some who do notice go "that's it then this is all nonsense." and become atheists. Others say well if these things are mutually exclusive as they appear then how can the bible be true as i know it is?" So they go searching for an answer. once they start that they will eventually find the correct answer.

2nd timothy chapter 2 verse 5:

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

by rightly dividing the word one gains higher understanding of the word and is not led into false doctrines and having the full armor of God prevents being beguiled by those that would destroy their faith or lead them into error and condemnation. God does not however do the work for anyone. They have to put on the armor themselves. In the end many won't and many will be deceived into worshiping the anti-Christ.

If you don't know the proper order of trumps or who appears first on earth in the end times or expect to be flown away before Satan's portion of the tribulation you will easily be deceived into worshiping the anti-Christ. The beast comes first but he appears pretending to be Christ. Unlike the written promise of Christ in the bible he will say he is going to fly people away but "in a few weeks" and not immediately. This is because he cannot do that at all but needs to buy time to fool the most people possible.

Those that are ashamed will include many Christians who were not properly armored with the gospel armor who fall for the lies of the Antichrist and worship him as God.

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: stormbringer1701

the bible does not require debate. skeptics think it does.

Oh but it SOOO does...

There wouldn't be skeptics if it didn't require debate... especially a 2000 year debate

No it isn't any wonder that many fall victim to various deceits and delusions. after all that is all that is left for Satan other than destruction. His hatred of mankind is such that even though he knows his fate he will take as many of us with him as he can. Thus all sorts of strategems are spread on the earth to snare mankind. These debates are mostly a result of spiritual and information warfare. There are legitimate debates to be had for sure but most of it isn't to the good of mankind but to delude and condemn him. Debate for example on why is Adam made on two different days might be positive in that it will illuminate a "secret" in the bible which Genesis in less conflict with the facts as known by science and will begin to reveal the actual hidden theme of much of the bible. Not that the fact that Adam and eve were not the first humans on earth is the over all key but it demonstrates that things in the bible aren't necessarily as simple as it appears. and that leads to what Eve really got into in the garden of eden. Which is the key to the whole thing. Not knowing that is what make the OT look like the acts of a psychopath.

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman
If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved". But wait...what about the book of James that seems to say that faith is not sufficient, that works also are needed for salvation.

I realize this subject has been debated for centuries. If you wish to comment, please cite evidence for why you believe the way you do.

Christianity was invented by people who wanted to control others. If Jesus was real at all, he was a regular human being, not a deity. His character Jesus is actually a copy / plagiarism of previous deities who were EXACTLY the same, but came centuries before. Religion is the worst mental illness on Earth.

Want to know who Jesus was? Check out Horus, Osiris, Dionysus, and Mithras. You will find where the Jesus character was invented from by scammers of old.

Sources : History Books

a reply to: onthedownlow

Don't think to little of yourself in this respect. What I mean is that your thoughts and words as well as actions are to be considered.

This Can be, giving an account of your faith, correcting a brother or sister in Christ or Proclaiming Christ as the saviour etc etc.

It's probably good you are not keeping a record of what you have done. However we can all be mindful of what we can do.

Regards

a reply to: Ghost147

Hello

Babies don't go to hell, thankfully. Also the Bible tells us that faith comes from hearing the word of God and that faith is a Gift from God.

It's my opinion the hell has been created for, and obviously this is from a Christian perspective, the fallen angels that rebelled and the demonic spirits of the dead fallen angel and human hybrids and those that open reject the truth (of Christ and God, salvation etc) KNOWING that it is the truth and openly opt for door number two. Lucifer, Devils etc etc.

Regards

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Ghost147

Why would a that God also welcome in those who hate Him?

Because that is how the "unconditional" part of unconditional love works.

a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

Emunah v. Ma'aseh haTorah (Faith v. works of the Law)

You wrote QUOTE: "If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved". But wait...what about the book of James that seems to say that faith is not sufficient, that works also are needed for salvation. I realize this subject has been debated for centuries. If you wish to comment, please cite evidence for why you believe the way you do. " UNQUOTE

The divide between these two salvation ideologies echoes the division between on the one hand the Pauline churches (salvation by 'faith' alone) and on the other hand, the Nazorean Ebionite churches set up by 'James' the brother of R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean ("Jesus") who believed in salvation by works of the Law (ma'aseh ha Torah) which originally meant circumcision and keeping kashrut diets.

We see the latter exemplified in the epistle written in the name of 'James' which echoes the Jacobite-Ebionite position.
For those who subscribe to the 'salvation by faith alone' camp it might be helpful to remember that 'Paul' (Saul of Tarsus) never 'met' R. Yehoshua bar Yosef ("Jesus") in the flesh, only in dreams and visions; whereas his own blood brother James subscribed to the salvation by works ideology.

In the four canonical Greek Gospels we see different writers on different sides of the divide.

The 1st canonical Greek gospel ('according to Matthew' whoever he was) seems to side more with James on this issue (salvation by works) in contrast with e.g. the 3rd canonical Greek gospel ('according to Luke' whoever he was) which seems to place more emphasis on faith alone.

See Matthew 5:15-16
Do men light a menorah then immediately place it under a bowl? Do they not put it on its stand, so that it might spread its light to everyone in the house? Likewise let your light shine before others, that they may see your mitzvot ('commandments' i.e. good works) and glorify your Father in heaven.

Matthew 25 31ff
“When the Bar Enasha (Son of Man) comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne and all the Gentiles will be gathered before him...then he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did to me.’

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

In the Gospel of Matthew, there is NOT ONE WORD about having to have faith in ho Iesous in order 'to be saved' - there is not one word about having to "believe" in anything at all to get to heaven - and no mention of the atonement or of salvation by faith. In fact, Jesus says that all you have to do for God to forgive your sins is this:

"For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:" (Matthew 6:14) which seems to suggest an active form of the ma'aseh haTorah.

Later in that Gospel, when someone asked Jesus directly what he had to do to be saved and have eternal life, 'Matthew' clearly has ho Iesous answer the question with 'salvation by works':

Matt. 19:16-21: "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Teacher, what mitzvot must I do to be worthy of the life? And he said unto him, Why do you call me 'good'? there is none good but the Holy One [of Yisro'el] - but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He says to him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. The young man said to him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If you would be perfect, go and sell your belongings and give the money to the Ebionim ('the poor ones') that you might have have treasure in heaven: then come and follow me."
In the fourth gospel ('according to John' whoever he was) on the other hand, salvation by faith seems to be a prerequisite for salvation

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

John 3:18 “He that believeth in him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

John 3:36 “He that believeth in the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth upon him.”

John 8:24 “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.”
John 11:25 “Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”

Clearly the Johnanine community (c. 110 CE) was at odds at the time with the Ebionite Christians which was headed up at one time by 'James the Lord's brother' on this issue.

a reply to: Sigismundus

I personally contend that the writers and followers of the gospels did not ever teach faith alone...

In John it does say that whoever believes in Jesus will be saved... as you quoted from John 3

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Yet I believe they still had a working knowledge of "belief" unlike the Christians of the faith alone camp who are deceived by Paul and his theology, and dare I say... his influence over people being not only a roman citizen but a Pharisee as well

Further in that chapter we read this...

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

As I've stated many times before... IF one believes in something, they do what is required of them

IF a man believes in Jesus, they do as he asked.... and Jesus did not ask for his followers to "just believe"

IF that was the case 90% of what was written about him becomes null and void

Belief requires action... not just words

a reply to: DrogoTheNorman

If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved". But wait...what about the book of James that seems to say that faith is not sufficient, that works also are needed for salvation. I realize this subject has been debated for centuries. If you wish to comment, please cite evidence for why you believe the way you do.

My understanding is that regardless of the faith or the works of each person there is still a judgment of each person after each one of us dies.

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I believe that faith comes first in the belief of the Son of God. (John 3:16) -- Why so? Because even the Satan's or Devils believe and are not saved. So in this meaning the scriptures meant (to me) that the word faith means faith that Jesus is the Begotten Son of God.

Many people can do good deeds in their life and still be ungodly or atheists, so in that respect works is not meant to be just a good guy. Works is meant that one lives the life of Christ Jesus daily and is foremost in all actions of the mind and body.

Most certainly some will do better than others in that respect and some will also give their life for that faith. That is what the judgment is for. Every person will be saved by faith in Christ Jesus but not every person will reap the same rewards of their works. One must first have faith in the Christ Jesus and then act upon that faith with the works of the mind and body.

Dismas (thief beside Jesus) died with faith, only, so far as we know. Of course we don't know his entire history but we are led to understand that Dismas came into faith upon his death and if that is true then he died with little reward compared to Apostles who suffered greatly in working for Christ Jesus. There are rewards in judgment but the rewards or works is not what is the primary requirement in salvation. You must have faith first and then action upon that faith in the ability that is given to each one. That ability is given through the strength of faith.

An example is that through faith comes prayer and through prayer comes gifts of the work required. Some will be preachers and some will be healers and some will be the guards of discernment of spirits and some will be prophets and some will utter the tongues of angels and some will interpret those tongues of angels to edify the church. Some will be nothing but prayer warriors but all are part of the church and do the works of the church of Jesus. Then there are some who help in governing the people in a Christ like manner. Always in the spirit of God. These are but a few of the works that are judged at death but no one can do these works with out faith first. So in effect faith = prayer = works or deeds done in that faith. One can not show itself without the other. My opinions of course.

originally posted by: akushla99

originally posted by: DrogoTheNorman
If you read the New Testament thoroughly, it would appear that faith in Jesus is sufficient to be "saved". But wait...what about the book of James that seems to say that faith is not sufficient, that works also are needed for salvation.

I realize this subject has been debated for centuries. If you wish to comment, please cite evidence for why you believe the way you do.

Obviously 'the word of God' contradicts itself...otherwise no-one would be asking/interpreting what the difference might mean...

Å99

Obviously the word of MAN contradicts itself...otherwise no-one would be asking/interpreting what the difference might mean...Another reason the BIBLE, at least in ANY current form, is the undisputed WORD OF MAN...Not god.

For example he forbid that a lamb should be boiled in it's own mothers milk because this is a perversion of the natural order between mothers and their young he created.

Lambs only? What about the young of other animals where the mother produces milk?

God will make sure everyone can be held accountable fairly either in life or in the millennium. And everyone will be held to account.

Accountable in what way? Believing the tall tales of one man claiming to be God?

Even if we gave you there was 100% evidence showing everything Jesus did ACTUALLY DID happen, not just HEARSAY decades after the fact, even if we gave you that.... guess what? Even all of those acts put together don't prove someone is God, they are insufficient. There are an infinity of conceivable beings or entities capable of performing all of those feats and even greater ones without actually being God.

well once God does show himself to the world you can not change your mind at that point..... no matter who you are..... you will be an unbeliever and marked as one.

Yup, once more evidence is provided, you're no longer able to evaluate your position. You have to do it on the grounds of insufficient evidence, in fact either you trust us blindly and buy into the tall tales of our cult or you'll be tortured forever(or eternal death depending on who you ask).(But TAKE OUR WORD FOR IT, the EVIDENCE you want WAS ACTUALLY PROVIDED TO A SELECT FEW FOUNDERS OF THE RELIGION, why doubt their words, they're direct WITNESSES TO THE EVIDENCE believe in the hearsay spread through the centuries. Why are these few priviledged with direct evidence, but you must take the words of strangers? That's the way the cookie crumbles, that's justice for you some witness direct miracles you get distorted rumors passed through the centuries, and both the direct witness and the one who heard mere rumors will be judged just as harhsly despite one having been given FAR MORE EVIDENCE than the other.)

REALITY check, providing supposed MIRACLES TO SOME, and mere hearsay to most, and evaluating them both very harshly on whether they believe it or not, well that's simply not just... giving evidence to some and not others, plain injustice.

How many cults have there been throughout history? Countless? Countless claiming to have been direct witnesses to untold miracles, often from the founders. Countless dying for their beliefs. Why take the words of cult at face value without evidence? Why this demand for unconditional belief without evidence?

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof, and it shouldn't be any different when it comes to religious claims. To claim you'll be judged harshly on your level of gullibility, oh but the founders were not gullible, they didn't take the founder's claims on words alone, they were given plenty of evidence**(EVIDENCE? EVIDENCE YOU SAY, why did they need evidence, don't you just need faith? NO faith is NOT ENOUGH AND YOU KNOW IT, that is why you know the REASON THEY RECEIVED EVIDENCE... yes THE EVIDENCE WAS TO CONVINCE THEM... because at the HEART AT THE VERY HEART OF almost ALL RELIGIONS LIE THE CLAIM THAT SOMEONE ACTUALLY HAD EVIDENCE TO BELIEVE IT AND DIDN'T RELY ON FAITH... your FAITH is on their witness testimony, that they're not just some other random cultist) you can take our words for it.

I guess the point is you can say/think you believe all you want, but at the end of the day "talk/thought is cheap".
Deeds and actions show, we can never earn our personal salvation that is a free gift God gives us anyways,
Covered for us with Jesus ransom sacrifice
But when judgement comes every person on this planet will be forced to show faith in God to survive, that is a fact.
Spontaneous faith is possible but very rare, let me give you some biblical example where it saved people, that were not born into God's favor or had not shown too much or even any faith beforehand .

1) The Egyptians that left with the Jews and got out Egypt after the 10 plagues.
2) Rehab and her whole family in Jericho, she was a prostitute too.
3) The Gibeonites, Canaanites targeted for destruction, but saved themselves with faith.

The point in each of these, they risked there very lives, throwing it on the mercy of God, that is big time faith with action to back it up. And that is highly valued by God even if what you did previously was not good or very sinful.
The point is, it can be done, but I don't see all these life long evolutionist and atheists suddenly risking there very lives to side with God's sovereignty, when judgement is nearing, not impossible but highly unlikley, then again some could have that last minute epiphany on par with what happened to Saul on the road to Damascus.
And I would be the first to welcome them. Because it takes so much humility to admit your lifelong POV was always wrong.

But when judgement comes every person on this planet will be forced to show faith in God to survive, that is a fact.

It is only fact if it turns out out of all the religions yours is the one and only true one.

originally posted by: Xenogears

But when judgement comes every person on this planet will be forced to show faith in God to survive, that is a fact.

It is only fact if it turns out out of all the religions yours is the one and only true one.

It seems you got nothing out of the gist of my post, none of those people saved by God were in the correct religion, which was Judaism at that time. They didn't have to be in the correct religion, what they had to be is astute as events unfolded around them, with the right mix of intelligence and humility and willing to risk their very lives for the one true God at a critical moment in their lives, actioned faith.
That time is coming for every human on the planet.

Salvation is given only to those who serve God
Faith is the seed, works are the evidence, just believing is not enough

It's not faith vs works, it's faith and works, they go hand in hand
Demons believe in the one God, their works are the evidence of their salvation.

Believing is not enough, Christians must show the evidence of their salvation

First faith then works, they a pair. One is spiritual the other the evidence.
The OPs assumption is false, they don't contend with each other, they are not at odds

No doubt an atheist will call the no true Scotsman argument, fortunately it's invalid as their opinion is irrelevant to Gods judgement

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Not exactly.

I love my son unconditionally, but I also impose rules and consequence on him. No amount of love on my part will stay me from imposing those consequences when he is a spud. In fact, it is precisely because I love him unconditionally that I impose those consequences.

And when God loves us so much that He gives us every opportunity to repent and be reconciled no matter how grave our sins and we still spit in his eye, our choice has clearly been made.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33

originally posted by: Xenogears

But when judgement comes every person on this planet will be forced to show faith in God to survive, that is a fact.

It is only fact if it turns out out of all the religions yours is the one and only true one.

It seems you got nothing out of the gist of my post, none of those people saved by God were in the correct religion, which was Judaism at that time. They didn't have to be in the correct religion, what they had to be is astute as events unfolded around them, with the right mix of intelligence and humility and willing to risk their very lives for the one true God at a critical moment in their lives, actioned faith.
That time is coming for every human on the planet.

It seems it is you who didn't get it. As I said if your religion is right. If judaism was always false, wrong, fiction, and christianity the same. How are members of other religions going to be judged by the CHRISTIAN god, if the god turns out to be fiction?

Again if Hinduism, buddhism or shintoism turns out to be the right or correct religion... tell me how is everyone going to be judged by a false god?

fortunately it's invalid as their opinion is irrelevant to Gods judgement

Correction, invalid to YOUR god's judgment. As far as you believe your god is the same as the one true god, but that belief is not proven. For all you know the one true god is nothing like the god of your religion, and the god of your religion but a false fabricated description of him.

Not exactly.

I love my son unconditionally, but I also impose rules and consequence on him. No amount of love on my part will stay me from imposing those consequences when he is a spud. In fact, it is precisely because I love him unconditionally that I impose those consequences.

And when God loves us so much that He gives us every opportunity to repent and be reconciled no matter how grave our sins and we still spit in his eye, our choice has clearly been made.

I imagine if your son misbehaves, you won't torture him locked up until he dies(as that is what some claim god will do eternal torment), or as others suggest if your son is dying and you can save him you won't just let him die as punishment(as that is what others claim god will do eternal death to sinners.)